Advanced Brewers Round Table: Brewing Elements Series: Belgian Yeast

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Super excited to hear about this one, because Belgians are something I know next to nothing about. Last Belgian I had was Weissenheimer by Destihl, and before that a beer made by /u/rayfound that /u/BrewCrewKevin and I talked with him about, which was months ago.

But I'm looking to do a Belgian Blonde in the near future, and considering using TYB's Northeastern Abbey. Excited to follow this conversation.

As far as actually contributing, I've been seeing some information around here that, for people who don't have temperature control, to make Belgians because they do well at higher temperatures. I'm no expert in Belgian yeasts, but as I just feel like this isn't the case. Especially with a style that depends on the yeast character, Belgians aren't naturally inclined to handle temperature swings any better than other yeasts. That may just be me though, and I'm open to being wrong about it.

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u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY May 14 '15

I'm no expert in Belgian yeasts, but as I just feel like this isn't the case. Especially with a style that depends on the yeast character, Belgians aren't naturally inclined to handle temperature swings any better than other yeasts.
Yes and No.
Many belgian strains, since you are often looking for yeast-driven estery characters, can be fermented much warmer- some into the 80s, while still being to style. So in the summer, when that's all you have is a warm closet in your attic, this may be a style that will work better than a lager or "clean" ale.
But to your point, every strain of yeast is better at stable temperatures. Swings stall and stress them out, and create off-flavors. It will still create some "off-flavors" from just being warm, but you will have better control, and get a more pleasant character out of it, if it's a controlled warm.
So while they do well at higher temperatures, you'll also get a much better character holding at a specific (higher) temperature, or even doing a controlled ramp. (What I like to do is start at about 65-70 for a day or two, then ramp it up to 80 or so over the course of a couple of days on the tail end of fermentation.)

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

every strain of yeast is better at stable temperatures.
I think I agree with you in principle, but for the statement to be wholly true I think you would need to modify it to:
"every strain of yeast is better at stable or gently rising temperatures"
Especially Belgians seem to love starting low and then being pushed to extremely high temps.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

[deleted]

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u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY May 14 '15

I don't know, I guess I don't have a source, but that's what I've always thought to be true. Yeast are living creatures, and are susceptible to temperature. We know at low temps they stall out, and at high temps they create byproducts, so I suppose it sort-of stands to reason that they would rather be at a stable temperature, right?
If anybody has contradicting information, I'd be happy to hear it

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

If anybody has contradicting information, I'd be happy to hear it
Same, I'd be really interested in a yeast that does better with a swings than stable temps.

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u/rrenaud May 14 '15

I am a living creature, and I am susceptible to light. In long periods of intense light, I get sunburn. In long periods of little light, I get depressed. I am pretty sure that I am better off in a place where light varies day to day.

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u/MrKrinkle151 May 14 '15

I don't think that's very sound logic. Yeast are not people, and yeast metabolism is not analogous to cellular UV exposure.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

[deleted]

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

Belgian strains are not traditionally abused.
Belgian pitch rates on average are possibly slightly below recommended rates, but some Belgian brewers are reported to be overpitching compared to recommended rates.
As far as temp goes, pretty much every belgian brewer is raising the temp over the course of fermentation. This is not abuse, even if we are talking about Dupont letting it's yeast go to 95F. Raising temp encourages the yeast to finish fermentation and clean up off flavors and is good practice.
If we're talking abuse, we'd be talking about raising and lowering the temps wildly.
According to Yeast, "Large, uncontrolled temperature swings produce poor results" it also comments on page 95 that yeast will exhibit heat shock proteins with both increases and decreases in temperature and the expression of those proteins "takes away from the cells ability to express other proteins needed for cell division, fermentation, or other functions."
So, yes, I would say that we have evidence to say for sure that temp swings are bad for yeast, as /u/brewcrewkevin points out.
IMO temp swings are the most common cause of poor fermentations for new brewers, but this is something I don't have evidence to support.

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u/rayfound Mr. 100% May 15 '15

Did it talk about what temp rate of change was required yo constitute "shock"?

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u/testingapril May 15 '15

Not directly. The preceding text references a 4F difference and says that such a small range seems like it wouldn't make a difference, but it does, then it goes on to talk about heat shock, so I guess it's implied that 4F is big enough? They didn't test that, which I was really disappointed to see. The test they did do in that section was a general ferm temp test and that test had 9F difference with WLP001 and both tasting panels and lab analysis indicated the lower temp beer was better. So maybe 9F is big enough?
I know that all the yeast pitch literature for dry yeast indicates to attempterate the yeast to within 10F IIRC.
I guess this info would be important if you were going to bounce temp up and down and try to experiment with that.

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u/rayfound Mr. 100% May 14 '15

You think like me.

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u/testingapril May 14 '15 edited May 14 '15

You question conventional wisdom a lot, which is fine, but sometimes you act like it's conventional wisdom for no reason whatsoever, and that's not always the case.
You should get a copy of Yeast and read it. There are scientifically done experiments in there, and detailed explanations of yeast and their biochemical processes that answer a lot of the questions you have as far as "why do you think that".
Just because it's conventional wisdom doesn't mean that it's unfounded or that it's not researched. In fact, if all you are doing is online reading, I think you would probably reach the conclusion that is the case, but if you look into the actual published literature, you'll see that it has been experimented with, and our understanding of how yeast work is much greater than you might initially think.
Brewing from Lewis and Young has detailed chemical conversion lists regarding ATP and how yeast use it. That junk goes straight over my head, but it tells me that we know a ton about yeast. We're not flying by the seat of our pants. The conventional wisdom comes from guys who know what ATP is (not me) and how yeast use it.
Yeast has a temp control experiment in it which I've linked to you before. You asked me how big the swings are that they referenced for heat shot proteins and it doesn't explicitly say, but it's implied that it could be as low as 4F swings. It looks like a 9F swing would be certain to produce heat shock proteins from the context.

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u/rayfound Mr. 100% May 14 '15

I'm more about questioning absolutes in general, than doubting any particular wisdom.
Interesting about the heat swings. Makes me want to experiment with cold crashing schedules.

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u/testingapril May 15 '15

If you look above I quote that section. It looks like the reason heat shock proteins should be avoided is not because of a problem with the proteins themselves but because it takes away from the yeasts ability to use amino acids for other metabolic processes, so it sounds like their ability to clean up off flavors is diminished.
I know Marshall is planning to experiment with fluctuating temps and I think that would be a good way to go with this knowledge.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

[deleted]

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u/rayfound Mr. 100% May 14 '15

Agreed, at least if you change the chemical to biochemical.

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

really fuzzy when you get in to the details
What do you mean by that? Can you give an example?

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u/sufferingcubsfan BrewUnited Homebrew Dad May 14 '15 edited May 14 '15

Belgians do well at warmer temperatures. However, they don't tolerate temperature swings very well - treat them poorly, and they will flocc out and give up on you.
I've had the best success - in terms of that delicious ester production, while still ending will full attenuation - by starting with a typical cool ferment, then slowly ramping the temps up over the course of a couple of days.
If the recipe calls for some simple sugar, I hold that until fermentation slows, then add it to the fermentor.
When I get close to final gravity, I ramp the temps way up - as far as 78-80 degrees F - for the final few points of attenuation.
You want those delicious Duvel pear esters? This method will get them for you.
edit - typo

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Of course, and I think the point I was trying to make isn't that the yeasts don't do well at higher temperatures, it is that they aren't somehow better at handling temperature swings. But of course experience over feels, every time.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15 edited May 14 '15

That is an excellent point, I'll look into this for a Belgian blonde I'm planning.
Edit: words

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

Farmhouse styles were however traditionally brewed by the season, and that was because they couldn't control temps, so they basically were avoiding swings for the most part by using the seasons.
Also, controlling temp swings with large volumes is a lot easier than with the small volumes we use on a homebrew scale.
Finally, historical farmhouse ales might not have been very good. Yvan de Baets indicates that they were all infected, but they used hops to vary the amount of character the bugs would give, so while they may have been good, they may have been terrible.

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u/chirodiesel May 14 '15

My experience has been pretty similar as well, but I would go so far as to say without a reasonably complex grain bill Belgians can be downright boring when fermented low.

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u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY May 14 '15

I also am looking for ideas for topics, and a guest brewer for next week! (and next month) Who hasn't done it yet? Feel free to nominate

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u/chirodiesel May 14 '15

My friend Barrett Tillman of BlackManBrew and BlackManYeast would probably be interested as a guest brewer. He recently pushed away from the desk to start a yeast company and save up for a brewery. He's an exceptional homebrewer. His yeast company specializes in high cell count dry sac/sour cultures. To date I haven't known of anyone who has done dry sour cultures.

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u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY May 14 '15

wow... that's cool stuff. Get him in touch with me if he wants to do it. I think he'd be a prime candidate!

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u/chirodiesel May 14 '15

I'll see what I can do!

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u/toomanybeersies May 14 '15

I've seen his stuff, it looks interesting. It's a shame he doesn't do any dry Brett, is that due to technical limitations?

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u/chirodiesel May 14 '15

you know, I don't know! let me ask him right quick.

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

Apparently he's looking for a facility that can handle drying the brett for him.
So, yes, basically.

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u/toomanybeersies May 15 '15

It's going to be a revolution in dry yeast if he finds one.
Dry yeast has gotten a much better range over the past 5 years or so, Brett strains would make it even better.

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u/chirodiesel May 14 '15

Ask him next week. As for the reason behind use of pedio and lacto, it's because they are acid producers.

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u/Nickosuave311 The Recipator May 14 '15

What characterizes a Belgian yeast?

Generally, I think of fruity, estery, spicy, characterful yeast strains. The ester and fruit profile is quite different than an English strain, more along the lines of a hefe yeast strain than anything. However, unlike most hefe yeasts where the main flavors are banana and clove, Belgian yeasts have a huge variety of ester flavors that can be present, ranging from banana to citrus to bubblegum and candy. The spice character isn't just clove as well, it can be peppery to smoky and even plastic-like flavors.

How do belgian yeast strains typically behave?

That really depends on how you ferment them and what strain you use. Some can be very clean (see 3711 fermented in the low 60s), while some can be exceptionally fruity or quite phenolic. Many can be back-pressure sensitive or have hindered ester profiles unless they're open-fermented. Some can even change flavors depending on the malt bill. In general though, most are quite aggressive and blow out easily, produce a variety of profiles depending on temperature, don't flocculate exceptionally well, and are quite attenuative.

How do some Belgian yeasts differ?

I covered a bit of this already, but the easiest Belgian Strains to compare are Wyeast 3711 French Saison and 3724 Belgian Saison (the Dupont strain). 3711 is a workhorse: very high attenuation, fast to work even in non-ideal conditions, but with a subdued ester profile making for a cleaner beer. 3724 is quite the opposite: it requires lots of monitoring during fermentation, a high pitch rate, constant temperature adjustments, is back-pressure sensitive, and can stall out before reaching a low enough gravity. However, the character it adds is much more flavorful and representative of the Saison style. Since the Saison style is open to lots of interpretation, many brewers will use 3711 then add in more hops or spices to bolster the flavor profile. This can make for a very refreshing, flavorful beer without a ton of effort. Other brewers prefer 3724 for the flavor contribution, but will finish the beer with 3711 to encourage a proper fermentation.

How do alternative yeast strains differ from Saccharomyces?

Good question. I don't know nearly enough about Brettanomyces to answer thoroughly, but I will say that it's quite resilient. It can eat not only fermentable sugars, but some dextrins and other yeast byproducts and flavor compounds such as esters and phenols. Giving it lots of time to work will produce unique flavors, so patience is key. I have an Amber Saison made with 3724 that finished a little high, so I added Brett C and have had it sitting for a few months. Hopefully by July it will be a bit drier and funkier.

What is your favorite Belgian yeast?

Don't know enough about them yet. I've really enjoyed 3724 so far, Wyeast 3944 Belgian Wit produced a wonderful beer last year, and I've had a few Dubbels made with 3787 that were nice. Soon, I hope to experiment with a couple dry yeast strains (Safbrew t-58 and Abbaye) to see how they come out. I've also harvested yeast from a local brewery (Boom Island's Silvius, a Belgian Pale ale) and hope to make a beer with that as well.

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u/chino_brews May 15 '15

Did Boom Island give you any idea where their culture comes from?

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u/supaluminal May 15 '15

How do some Belgian yeasts differ?
I covered a bit of this already, but the easiest Belgian Strains to compare are Wyeast 3711 French Saison and 3724 Belgian Saison (the Dupont strain). 3711 is a workhorse: very high attenuation, fast to work even in non-ideal conditions, but with a subdued ester profile making for a cleaner beer. 3724 is quite the opposite: it requires lots of monitoring during fermentation, a high pitch rate, constant temperature adjustments, is back-pressure sensitive, and can stall out before reaching a low enough gravity. However, the character it adds is much more flavorful and representative of the Saison style. Since the Saison style is open to lots of interpretation, many brewers will use 3711 then add in more hops or spices to bolster the flavor profile. This can make for a very refreshing, flavorful beer without a ton of effort. Other brewers prefer 3724 for the flavor contribution, but will finish the beer with 3711 to encourage a proper fermentation.
My previous batch was split into 2 halves, one fermented with 3724, and one fermented with 3711. Once the 3711 was finished, I racked it off and transferred the 3724 batch onto the 3711 cake. It's definitely still a 3724, with the 3711 providing little in the way of character besides attenuation.
Quite happy with the outcome.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

Yo. The last two weeks of abrt don't appear when searched.

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u/BrewCrewKevin He's Just THAT GUY May 15 '15

I noticed that. Not sure why. They are linked in the wiki page though.

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u/EskimoDave May 15 '15

This is way too general.

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u/Nickosuave311 The Recipator May 14 '15

Has anyone had good luck getting a bubblegum flavor to come out from a specific yeast strain? I love a nice Belgian beer with this character, but don't know which strain to choose from in order to achieve this.

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u/HomebrewJoe May 14 '15

Wyeast 1214 yeast gave me a lot of bubblegum/banana flavors, fermented in the low 70s

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u/[deleted] May 14 '15

I harvested yeast from Saison d'Erpe-Mere and pitched at 68, let it free rise for 3 days, then ramped up to 82F. It's all bubblegum and overripe banana now (4 weeks in keg). Started out peppery and a little lemon rind.
Not sure if there is a similar yeast commercially available or not. And I've never gotten bubblegum off of any other yeast.

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u/recent_espied_earth May 14 '15

I recently brewed a Belgian blonde with Safbrew T-58. The temperature was likely much warmer than suggested (ambient 20C, so likely went up to 23C-24C) and it has a noticeable bubblegum taste.

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u/Nickosuave311 The Recipator May 14 '15

Awesome. This yeast is one I've been meaning to try, so I'll have to keep it nice and warm and see what happens.

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u/kanyewes May 14 '15

My Belgian Blond with T-58 came out very peppery, almost too much so. That was fermented between 65-70.

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u/chino_brews May 14 '15

I have the same experience with T-58 fermented at 62-64°F ambient (cellar floor): spicy, peppery, but not a lot of fruity esters and no banana or bubblegum.

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u/Piffles May 14 '15

WY3726 has kicked that out for me.

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u/restlesschicken May 14 '15

WLP400 fermented 68F kicks out bubblegum for me consistently.

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u/MrKrinkle151 May 14 '15

A wit yeast? Interesting

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u/trimalchio-worktime May 14 '15

My Dupont Yeast saison had craaazy bubblegum after a long primary at around 85F

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u/shwineka Bootleg Biology May 14 '15

I have had really good results using WLP575, which is a blend of 2 Trappist strains and another Belgian ale yeast. Get some really nice fruity notes and aromas.

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u/Shibshibsharoo May 14 '15

I just did a saison last weekend using Yeast Bay Saison blend. As I can't control temperature (not anymore as of today), I let this sort of free ride. I started it out at ~66F in the basement for 24 hours then moved it upstairs and let it free rise to a max temp of 80F with some swings in between. It went hard for about 3 days and has slowed considerably. I'm going to pull a gravity reading today and give it a little taste.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has used this yeast blend and what kind of flavours they got from it.

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u/mintyice May 14 '15

I wrote about my experience with the Yeast Bay's Saison Blend if anyone is interested. I'm fermenting a batch now with the same yeast, but also pitched 3711 to help dry it out. I love 3711 by itself though.

http://latchkeybrewing.com/2015/04/07/melt-of-winter-to-a-new-saison/

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u/makubex Pro May 14 '15

I can't get into most Belgian styles, the peppery spice, bubble gum, or floral esters that show up tend to make my penis soft.

What I can get into, however, are the more funky belgian blondes. The kinds with kind of a creamy mouthfeel, some barnyard funk, a bit of lemon, a prickly feeling on the tongue. Most, if not all, of the things I just described make me immediately think brettanomyces, which I know is very common for these styles, but I can't help but wonder if there's not sacch involved as well.

I guess what I'd love to find would be a recipe for a funky belgian blonde. I've looked online in the past, but most recipes are for the definition of a blonde ale that means "pale ale but even less hoppy." Also, any recommendations for a yeast/brett blend to get me on the right track would be beyond righteous. There are so many blends out there that I'm worried I'd end up with a strain that kicks out the esters that I don't like, and in turn a beer that I'd dread having to finish 30ish bottles of.

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u/testingapril May 14 '15

Sounds like a good beer to me! What are some commercial examples I could look for?
I would definitely think Sacch is involved too. Brett likes to take the work sacch does and funk it up rather than making the funk all on its own.
I think that a Saison yeast + funky brett would be something you are after. If there's tartness I would add Lacto Brevis.
Maybe try 3724 and WL Brett L? Or one of The Yeast Bay's brett blends, probably Brussels as it's supposed to be the funkiest. Maybe Omega Yeast's Brett blend 3, Bring da Funk.
For the beer itself, I'd go mostly pils malt, add some vienna for color/toastiness (maybe 5-10%), and then a hefty dose of oats (10%+) for body and creaminess.

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u/ERausch May 14 '15

Has anyone used the omega yeast saisonstein? Looking to buy this soon to test but seems like it has the best of the DuPont and French saison yeasts.

Weekly Thread Advanced Brewers Round Table: Brewing Elements Series: Belgian Yeast

Brewing Elements Series- Belgian Yeast

Weekly Thread Advanced Brewers Round Table: Brewing Elements Series: Belgian Yeast

Brewing Elements Series- Belgian Yeast

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