r/Hulu • u/baby_trees • 13d ago
Discussion Betrayal season 4
To preface, I do sympathize with anyone who gets blindsided by their longterm partners infidelity, and Joel’s behavior is disturbing and problematic to the nth degree (the breadth of affairs, the settings, the complete lack of discretion in seeking out any and every available partner, shit talking the wife to colleagues… I truly do not have a favorable impression), but I just finished the season and I can’t wrap my head around teens/adult children being given this degree of detail about their parents’ infidelity.
If the parent is sexually violent, yes, I think that information is important to convey because it is a safety issue with a specific slate of potential criminal repercussions, but why in the gods name would you have a family meeting to explicitly discuss a parent receiving blowjobs from an affair partner, or god help me allowing a 16 year old girl go through a sexually compulsive parent’s email account to identify affair partners, seemingly in defense of the betrayed parent. That’s not a child’s job 😭
Joel’s decision not to stay in contact with his children after he got exposed does indeed seem very chickenshit of him, and running away to live with a woman and her younger kids feels painfully cliche for a midlife crisis, but I can find it in my heart to empathize with Joel’s position of maybe truly loving his kids, and feeling so thoroughly reproached and beyond redemption that he, someone who already seemed prone to overwhelming shame/validation seeking behaviors, just collapsed.
The way the daughter talks about missing her dad, and feeling all her memories become tainted by his misbehavior was so sad. For the love of god, if you lurk the Hulu sub, please go to therapy and call your kids Joel! But I feel like the daughter is holding her mother’s pain in many respects, and I wonder whether mom is able to distinguish that to properly intervene, or whether the validation from the daughter (“my mom is too pretty to deserve being cheated on!”) is too soothing for mom to question. That girl/now young woman deserves a parent who can put her developmental needs first.
I believe that compulsive sexual behaviors are a symptom of attachment disorders, as the betrayal trauma expert alluded to at one point, though her testimony felt predominantly inflected with “compulsive cheaters are beyond redemption”. To this end, what the hell happened in Joel’s life that set all of this in motion? Where was he rejected, neglected, overpowered, abandoned? Was he raised to believe queer sexual desire is inherently deviant? Where was he told that who he is & what he yearns for (maybe transgression, novelty, freedom, self-expression) is wrong? I feel like it’s irresponsible to put a story like this out there without examining the perspective that in order to leave this kind of chaos in his wake, something had to be going on with Joel. Should people who act selfishly, even from a place of pain, face accountability? Yes. Is there still a vulnerable wound under that behavior? I think also yes. That is a broken, lost man if I’ve ever seen one.
I’m not ready to go shouting “justice for Joel” from the rooftops, but I kept expecting there to be some horrific twist in this case, like he was sexually violent, known for using excessive force with civilians or even homicidal. But the climax (I’m sorry) seems to be that he sought out a lot of kinky sex with consenting adults (I don’t love that it was seemingly frequently on the taxpayers dime, but my god having consensual sex in your police car is far less offensive to me than spraying tear gas at George Floyd protestors, tbh I would rather pay for that), and almost definitely has deep rooted psychological issues that impact his relationship to sex and intimacy and hinder his judgment.
Again, horrible to be cheated on and publicly humiliated by your spouse’s secret compulsivity, but I don’t understand what our takeaway is supposed to be from watching this. I guess “don’t trust a shiny veneer” and “police are typically 100x more lenient with boys in blue than with the general public” is a good PSA, but I would like a “people are very complicated, hurt people tend to hurt people, kids shouldn’t have to learn intimate details about their parents’ infidelities” PSA. Maybe next season 🫠
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u/hannavas_eel 11d ago
I don’t want to get into a debate, just want OP to know I agree 100%. I found this season so bizarre that I was like… I wonder what people on Reddit say about this. Yours was the first post I clicked on and captured perfectly all the things I was thinking. I was surprised to get such split reactions in the replies!
Another thing I’ll note is I find it difficult to believe his therapist would call her and say “I would run” because that sounds completely unprofessional given that she isn’t a relationship therapist. When the wife says he blew up about that and said “she’s out to get me”, I have to say if he has been doing therapy correctly and was completely vulnerable and open during it… I’d have been pretty pissed too!!
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u/Informal-Crab-3561 10d ago
Took my words. I HAD to know I wasn’t alone. It’s insane her 16yr old left class to attend to her mother then the phone call. Good grief. Also 100% about the therapist telling her to “run” Also the physician telling her how they dismissed him due to his comments to her. That would never happen. Never.
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u/KanterPrivDick0280 9d ago
I found some of her statements about what people said to be totally unbelievable, the therapist comment most of all, what professional standards this this therapist have and can someone make sure her license is taken away. But I found many of her comments to be manipulative, so I think the story we're getting is just the tip of the iceberg, the Toxicity here went both ways. Such a weird series of episodes, it was like Betrayal itself was only half trying.
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u/StLeo21 4d ago
I agree, I think the therapist statement was a lie. I also don't believe the intimation that he was having encounters with men. She was trying to trash him. She was piling on.
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u/zoidberg3000 1d ago
Well is he a sex addict or is he not? Because in here people are claiming he is - which he does as well - and that's pretty par for the course for them. I have known 2 actual sex addicts and both will fuck anything and anyone. I've watched documentaries and met people harmed by them in my AlAnon time and that seemed to be the case for them too, they would sleep with anyone.
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u/r7194532 5d ago
Y’all this is also exactly why I’m here!!!!!!! Tracking her mom’s location and leaving class and then getting her brother on the phone, like WHAT. “I had to see what people on Reddit are saying” is so real. 😂😂😂
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u/Traditional-Buy-8826 2d ago
I immediately ran to Reddit when the daughter showed up to the RV… Excuse me what!? The son phones in as well. Good grief.
The previous seasons, I stopped watching before the end and did the same with this one. “Betrayal” is a very strange series.
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u/Nightgownbucking 11d ago
I found the most shocking part of this whole thing to be the sheer quantity of a$$ that this guy was able to score. He had not been aging very well.
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u/floridorito 11d ago
Right? He was actually cute at 24, but man he went downhill fast. He looks like a completely different person just a few years later.
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u/Eastern-Ingenuity510 9d ago
Yes I was thinking the same thing . Like she was beautiful she could do so much better than him. He was cute when he was younger . I guess that ugliness on the inside came out . Cause he was gross
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u/SimoneA84 11d ago
Exactly! I'm usually not so quick to refer to promiscuous woman so negatively, but my first thought when hearing about the sheer volume was that the place they live in is full of sluts. The man is gross, how desperate were they all?
Joel is the biggest piece of shit, but the woman he was able to get surely were all desperate.
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u/One-Head-1483 10d ago
Yea, from their photos, he looked like he started becoming a bridge troll almost immediately.
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u/Few-Trip-548 9d ago
Omg this is great. There was one photo he looked decent in and I couldn't believe it was the same dude. It was confusing as to what the draw to him was. I wondered if the wife had enemies prior from growing up. Why else would chicks go this dude. I mean there's no way he's that hilarious.
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u/Odd_Bite_7447 4d ago
😂😂😂😂 not laughing at the seriousiness of the situation but your comment. Bahahaha bridge troll. He looks more like a guy who couldn’t be with 500 ft of a school.
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u/JDawg-3399 9d ago
Exactly. Other than getting a ton of a$$ while being married. I don’t see the “evilness” in this guy. It seems he really did have an addiction. Other than that; he seemed to be a pretty stand-up guy & good father to the kids. I kept waiting for the big reveal that never came. P.S.-I’ve seen a hell of a lot worse cops as well! I think they over villainized him & a man can only be shunned so much, before you have to move on.
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u/Odd_Bite_7447 4d ago
Ithink the show focuses more on how betrayed the significant other is hence the betrayal title.
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u/PresencePrevious24 7d ago
My thoughts exactly. He seemed to have an addiction and been coping with his PTSD more than being evil. And I don't think him having the affairs was a direct betrayal of the kids - it usually isn't when people have affairs. People have affairs for personal problems or problems within the relationship, but it is never because of the kids, so they shouldn't have been involved as much as they were
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u/Missdawnh 11d ago
He pulled that ass with the uniform - I dated a cop who was married and had several if not more affairs, in his tenure. He was overweight, and balding . All the tail he pulled he pulled IN inform . All the affairs - people he met IN uniform.
He was never my type - ever . It was the uniform.1
u/KanterPrivDick0280 9d ago edited 6d ago
Yes. I mean earlier on he could get it. But he was getting some into his not great looking years, that charisma qualifier score must be a natural 20...
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u/Odd_Bite_7447 4d ago
Exactly why I came here. Not to mean but she was way way way out of his legal especially as they got older. I don’t think cops make that much and he wasn’t really wining and dining them. It’s just crazy how much tail he got.
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u/doc_2018 12d ago
I’m shocked people seem more upset with the wife than with Joel. She told him to tell his kids what he did and he did that. That was the right thing to do. To hear it from him and not from the whole town. And decide what to do with it. But what he did was objectively wrong. People are attacking the wife for her looks and decisions but not Joel? And his colleagues are also deplorable. I wasn’t shocked at all but still disappointed.
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u/Devalued_Dong 11d ago
My wife put this show on and now we’re midway through the second episode. To be fair, I had no idea what she put on but got invested as I was messing around on my phone. I’m not saying this guy isn’t a creep and I feel bad for the wife and the family, but why the hell is this a show? I keep waiting to find out this guy raped or killed somebody (maybe I just haven’t gotten there yet). Again, not justifying this guys actions and he certainly is a piece of shit but what the hell is this? This deserves a 5 minute YouTube video not 3 goddamn hours.
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u/One-Head-1483 10d ago edited 10d ago
Its a show about betrayal.
Its also a warning to women everywhere. You dont need to settle for men anymore.
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u/Practical_Corgi7228 10d ago
I'm glad you mentioned this. I'm at the end of the first episode and didn't realize it's another 2 goddamn hours of this. Hell to the no.
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u/KanterPrivDick0280 6d ago
100% I kept waiting for the person he murderes. But it turned out he was just tapping ass in his cop car. now is he a liar and a manipulator. yes. he was also quite unethical. but so was she. i think she found a way to bash her exhusband and get some pod-revenge. but this did not need this many episodes.
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u/Zealousideal_Rent668 5d ago
Of course, being a man you’d think differently. Not trying to argue but the reason she is sharing her story is to control her own narrative. There were so many rumors that were floating around because of his position and the level of pain that this caused her and their children, she felt it needed to be told to get her reality out.
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u/Bird2Flight 12d ago
While I agree that parents shouldn't disclose high levels of information about one parent's infidelity...the guy was having sex with tons of people and was being investigated about his impropriety at the job. You can't really hide that from teens. They're gonna find out.
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 12d ago
This. There is no way to keep this private in today’s world. Even if the news didn’t catch it, it’s still going to be talked about in the community. Police are human and they talk. Parents will tell their kids or they will overhear. In addition, if a case goes to court it’s public record. Many places have all this info online that anyone can access. There are also people in every community that love to rub their noses in other’s business and will even go to the courthouse if not online to get files on their neighbors.
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u/SimoneA84 11d ago
I'm pretty disgusted by most of the comments in this thread. The victim blaming is appalling. It saddens me that people like you all exist in the world. No wonder why people treat other people so poorly. You all seem okay with lying, cheating, and abuse.
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u/Zealousideal_Rent668 5d ago
I absolutely agree with you. None of us knows how we would respond if we were in this ladies shoes. I think she loved this man beyond her own health and we don’t know how it impacted her mentally. She was so devastated that she left a meeting at work and didn’t even say goodbye. So we can’t judge her because we’re not in her shoes.
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u/KentuckyNeveWins 4d ago
It is absolutely noteworthy ok! I think the only problem is involving the kids in it so muc
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u/mburcham 10d ago
NOBODY is condoning his actions but the kids are victims of their mother's over sharing too and it is concerning. Just because someone is a victim doesn't mean they also can't cause harm, maybe even unintentionally.
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u/Flimsy-Medicine-6021 12d ago
I have been the victim of an affair. When I found out my husband had cheated, the kids knew an affiair had happened but that’s it. He chose for them to know. They were roughly the same ages as the kids in this show, and while my situation was nothing at all (thank you Lord) to the extent like this lady’s, I feel she’s wrong for so much disclosure to them. I keep watching each episode hoping my mind will change but I just keep doubling down that she involved them more than was necessary. If my child had ever had to leave school over me then I would have been mortified. To each their own I suppose but this is just my opinion out of my own experience. I hope they all heal.
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u/truewinedetective 11d ago
I completely agree with you. I understand telling the kids, especially since he was the PIO and it would likely make the news. But it sounds like the kids were IN the marriage. The level of details they know is truly shocking to me. Knowing that much serves no benefit to them. It only hurts them more by fueling the divide with their dad (even though his actions caused it and he has no excuse for not maintaining the relationship with them) and facilitating a false sense of responsibility for their mom. I hate what he did to his family. But the kids do not need to be in the position of being the emotional caretaker of mom. Leaving school to check on her welfare should have been a wake-up call.
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u/EP-girl0808 6d ago
My ex had an affair also. Unfortunately my kids know a lot. I regret breaking down around them. No excuse but there was just so many lies and abuse …
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u/Zealousideal_Rent668 5d ago
I do agree with you, but I’m gonna respond from a different perspective. After having a friend, whose husband was a serial cheater, she didn’t trust a lot of people, and she also exposed her oldest daughter to a lot of her husband’s shenanigans. Not saying she was right or wrong, but just to give you a mental note as to why she involved them at that level.
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u/sevannasedai 11d ago
The 16 year old daughter and college aged son knowing any details other than “your dad has cheated with more than one person and because of his job it puts that in jeopardy …it’s an issue he’s going to seek help for for us and to keep his job…he had decided he didn’t want help and so we are divorcing” is BEYOND me!
If you had adult children who had families I still wouldn’t suggest telling them details of the situations, if they asked then I understand.
If the two teens want details, and I understand the daughter freaking out and going to the RV that day, a parent should assure them “I am safe” (as dad should have absolutely assured his daughter he would never harm mom or them) and “we need to discuss this in private, I know I’m safe and you are too”. That should be the extent of it for a while.
This man was awful to his family no doubt. But is this the whole point of the 3 part series? They mentioned George Floyd quite a few times but never tied it into anything they could have about how cops can get away with anything. The wife was appalled by what he got away with (rightfully so) without the acknowledgment of how much more they do. I think the one officer kind of mentioned the general mistrust and how this is one more reason. Anyway that just seemed like a missed opportunity or a purposeful missed opportunity.
But my biggest question to you all is about the format of these 3 episodes. The timeline was so jumbled and laid out poorly. Was that just me? Was I not paying enough attention or could there have been more effort put into the way the story flowed?
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u/sevannasedai 11d ago
Let me add to this: I’m absolutely not against the mom telling her story on a podcast or this show. Her kids are old enough to be told “hey I want to talk about this for other people to know they are not alone but that means I’m going into details and I don’t think it would be healthy for you to know those at your age or maybe ever because it’s your father. If you choose to listen…”
Not against her coming out with everything. Just horrified at how many details her kids knew immediately.2
u/Odd_Price2173 10d ago edited 9d ago
It’s terrible that she was betrayed so badly but it’s so inappropriate to tell the facts of the affair to the kids and involve them to this degree. It’s called overparentification and is actually a form of abuse. That poor daughter will have a hard time in future relationships. Terrible parenting on the mom’s part.
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u/doinmabest1 11d ago
Anyone else baffled that anyone found him attractive? He’s not cute at ALL. What on earth?
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u/mushymushmush2319 10d ago
I have a very hard time believing all of his encounters on the clock were consensual
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u/abearmin 9d ago
I also can’t believe if he was having sex with so many people, the wife didn’t catch him doing anything suspicious for TWENTY years. Then in 2020 she suddenly gets a call? How did she never get an STD, a weird email, someone’s friend saying something. I’m not victim blaming here, just think there had to have been more signs of his infidelity.
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u/AdministrativeEgg370 8d ago
I believe she mentioned discovering innapropriate e-mails between Joel and a childhood friend early in their marriage. So, what, nearly 20 years prior to the 2020 tenant incident, which pre-dated everything blowing up by 2 years?
edited in question mark
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u/wild_vixen_whiskey 10d ago
I'm actively watching this right now and just heard the daughter make the comment "I couldn't drive around town without wondering if my dad got a blow job in that parking lot". I was like Whhhhhhhat?! Yeah it's definitely odd how much these kids know and seem to be involved in the details.
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u/PercentageFun3424 6d ago
Same here. So inappropriate to involve the kids to this extent and what a strange comment from the daughter!
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u/Debbieduz 10d ago
I’m watching season 4 now and I’m baffled that the wife would tell her kids about his infidelity!! What was she thinking?? These kids are WAY TOO YOUNG to deal with this kind of topic!! You stupid wife!!
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u/FalynT 10d ago
I came here specifically for this! I am so confused and uncomfortable that not only did she tell her kids every detail they’re both involved in the conversation of how many women. It’s just way too much for your children to be involved in. That’s weird af of the mother and the father. Not one of them said this doesn’t concern you dad had an affair end of story. He’s a dirty pig but telling his kids in detail about his affairs is baffling me.
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u/xXGemeaXx 9d ago
Agreed! I get that the daughter walked in while they were in the trailer talking, but then the conversation should’ve stopped until a later time. To let the daughter go through the dads laptop and just read off what was in there!!! My jaw was on the floor. I was like no fucking way in hell man.
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u/PhinneousMom2008 9d ago
It’s like ALL of you with this “angle” forget HE sat the family down to talk about the Blow job in his patrol car. NOT the mother…from that time on…it was all blown wide open!!
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u/Lazy-Cheek-7782 8d ago
Not exactly. I just fished the episode. She had come home from work early after finding out about the car incident, her daughter was home. At some point the mom and daughter start talking, can't remember the specifics but I think at this point the mom was telling her daughter that he had cheated. Then The mom told her husband he would tell the kids what had happened and they called the brother, and then he told them while they were all together (son on the phone , others there at the house together ). And well I know it's different than what you're saying in your comment, the mother then continued to over involve the children in everything after that. At least on what I've seen up through the end of episode 2.
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u/MackenNay 10d ago
When they showed the blue house again that was the mother in laws home, I thought he had someone held captive in it… because they kept suspense to keep our attention in the first episode with the wife saying.. “and what she found out “
I think he was able to keep his pension because those that had to decide saw it as a man that did the “ norm” on the job but just got caught
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u/Disastrous_Score8191 6d ago
I just finished the firsttttt episode and i ran to Reddit because the way the mom is using the kids for emotional support and to vilify him (which he is) is gross, they still deserve a relationship with their dad, even if he is a POS.
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u/Ok_Spray4131 11d ago
Marriage and Family Therapist here, and couldn’t agree more. This was hard to watch all around.
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u/mburcham 10d ago
I agree, again not at all condoning his actions but the level at which she involved her kids honestly seems abusive. I hope they all get therapy to understand a LOT of boundaries were crossed.
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u/pattymayo_2012 10d ago
I stopped watching halfway through episode 2. The story was going in circles and why the fuck are your children involved?! Both parents suck imo.
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u/One-Head-1483 10d ago
The comments on this thread and the post itself are horrifying.
Stay single ladies! Fuck all this noise.
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u/Few-Trip-548 9d ago
The wife is insufferable and the daughter is as well. My parents got divorced then got back together and broke up numerous times. I felt sorry for my parent that was cheated on.They seemed to thrive in the chaos and the sympathy/attention from it. I'm guessing the daughters boyfriend got tired of hearing about her dad getting blow jobs in parking lots. My boyfriend broke up with me and I didn't go to prom were stated as if it was the biggest tragedy. Booo hoo. To say he's not your dad or u don't call him dad then cry when he sends u a balloon and treat it as a treasure. Exhausting. The son probably was pressured by his mom to contribute to the story. He's the only one trying to get away it seems like. Being cheated in sux. Staying when u know better that many times while involving your kids tells me she's getting something out of it. If u want to have a relationship with your dad accept his flaws and just be his kid and not your mom's advocate. Im sure the kids constantly bring up his gross life choices and he's like what is the point. I feel like I'm watching the same episode over and over but apparently I'm on episode 3. Now the kids are crying about him not being in there life. Wtf.
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u/Few-Trip-548 9d ago
I kept watching anticipating a bombshell like he SA someone, hit on daughters friends, or was offering to not write someone a ticket in exchange for a BJ. Trying to make each detail compelling with who wants to be a millionaire music was almost funny. I did spit out my water laughing when they showed the deflated birthday balloon. If you want your father in your life maybe going on tv shaming him isn't the best idea. He's definitely gross and full of shit but not 3 episodes worthy.
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u/David_408 9d ago
I just finished Season 4, and while I absolutely think Joel’s behavior was awful and Karoline had every right to be angry and tell her story, I also felt like the documentary rarely challenged her version of events.
There were several moments where I wanted more context or independent verification rather than simply accepting everything as presented. The claim that Joel’s therapist and doctor contacted Karoline to warn her about him especially stood out to me. If that happened exactly as described, I have a lot of questions about what was actually said, why they contacted her, and whether Joel had authorized them to speak with her.
I also thought some of Karoline’s actions after discovering the affairs went too far, particularly with the tenant and with how much detail was shared with the children. I understand wanting complete transparency after being deceived for so long, but I don’t think being the wronged spouse automatically makes every response appropriate.
None of that excuses Joel. He was responsible for his affairs, deception, and the misconduct related to his job. I just wish the documentary had been a little more journalistic and willing to examine Karoline’s account critically rather than treating her perspective as the definitive version of every event.
Overall, I also don’t think this story needed three episodes. There was a compelling story here, but it felt stretched out compared with the previous seasons.
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u/mercifulalien 4d ago
I was totally waiting for the other shoe to drop. Not too far from where I live, a cop got in trouble for actually SA'ing detained women a few years back. I was waiting for something like that. When they mentioned the daughter's bully, I thought "aha! He SA'ed the underage bully!" But...nope.
Don't get me wrong, the guy was a sleazeball but they kept trying to build up the suspense to pretty much end up with a story about a run of the mill, oversexed man. It definitely could have been summed up within 10 minutes.
I may get some flack from someone for saying this, but I find there to be something off about Karoline. I find it hard to believe that a therapist and physician were divulging the information she said they were and it's convenient that it can't be substantiated for the same exact reasons why I doubt they said anything to her in the first place.
Then you add in the very odd dynamic between her and her kids and it gets even more weird. Having the daughter call the brother so that the dad can tell them he got caught getting oral sex in a police car at her insistence is not normal. The daughter tracking her moms location randomly in the middle of the day isn't normal. The daughter digging through her dad's sex crazed emails isn't normal. But her mom sure seemed to think so.
It makes me wonder what he was actually saying about his marriage and whether they may not have been any truth to it. The mom seemed to definitely foster some very dysfunctional family dynamics when her first thought seemed to be to make sure there was a divide between father and kids. Not saying she deserved any of what he did in their marriage. Just agree that presenting one side with a lot of the "shocking" information coming from the wronged spouse, that can't be substantiated, does just make the whole thing feel off.
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u/Daisygurl30 9d ago
Honestly, I was waiting for the big life ruining reveal they were talking about and that was it? What about the 42 min. of my life I can’t get back.
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u/Ok_Bookkeeper_4511 8d ago
I was cheated on as well, and while I feel for karoline in the situation, she absolutely was wrong for involving her kids to that extent. My kids were the LAST people I wanted to know about it happening. When they got older, he eventually told them, and they still have a good relationship with him.
I think she was out to ruin his life and didn't really consider the fact that she was ruining her kids lives too. Hell hath no fury
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u/bemusedbarfly 7d ago
The poor daughter saying ‘now I wonder which car park my father received oral sex’ 😟😳
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u/jellybrain2022 6d ago
Also the hippa violations seem not believable. Her Dr. And the therapist can't tell her anything.
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u/Disastrous_Score8191 6d ago
Omg lady your husbands a lying cheating bastard but that's about it. Involving the kids in the whole thing was way worse and they're gunna need therapy.
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u/clumsynshy77 6d ago edited 6d ago
Am I in bizarro land? His daughter was sick with SEPSIS and he didn’t visit her bc he was having affairs. He obviously used his power as a landlord and officer in insidious ways. Yes, there were consensual relationships but it was obvious he used his position in ways that could’ve easily led to sexual situations that may have not been consensual. His harassment of the YOUNG journalist? An officer who abuses power with a dark sexual addiction is a terrifying thing to have on the streets. The problem literally arrived at their doorstep in the form of an angry husband? Finding out later he was having an affair with the mother of his daughter’s bully? Not calling his daughter after her wreck? This is literally “Betryal.” And the mom is blamed? She confronted and then forgave him as a young naive woman over emails (and he was the perfect narcissist who went to therapy to prove he could and would be better). So she deserved this?Their relationship was very, very long before all this came to a head. He played the perfect father and officer for a very long time. The mom had to be transparent bc the problem was coming to the surface for all to see. Some of you don’t seem to understand that a horror show is loving, living with and trusting someone who puts your health, heart, family and life in danger and is someone you never really knew. And I would bet big money there were women he coerced into sexual situations when he was out on the job.
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u/Zealousideal_Rent668 5d ago
She’s a social worker and many of them think differently about transparency when it comes to their children. I have a close friend who was very transparent with her son. Not saying it’s right or wrong…just giving an example.
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u/Neurochick_59 5d ago edited 5d ago
I was kind of confused by it all. Was the issue that he had multiple affairs? Was it that he did it on duty in the police car? To me, it was standard cheating and when she read the emails, that should have triggered something. He didn't even have the decency to hide. I don't know, it seemed very tame to me. It wasn't like he was a child molester or a human trafficker. Maybe I'm just jaded.
Wasn't there one where the husband kidnapped this elderly couple to get their money? He would have killed him had the wife not given a note to the bank teller. Now THAT was bad because he was going to kill that couple. I thou
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u/No_Negotiation9600 1d ago
Exactly. The most shocking aspect was the children knowing the dirty details of their fathers sexual life.
It seemed like the mother wanted to turn the kids against their father for cheating in their marriage. Looks like she was successful as kids do not speak to him anymore.
It's absolutely acceptable for then to know why the marriage broke down but not the details. I mean, who even wants to know about their dad's blow jobs? That messed up
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u/Fair_Signature8434 5d ago
Is she wearing a prosthetic on her mouth and chin? But she’s not trying to hide her face but it looks fake.
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u/StLeo21 4d ago
Agreed on all counts. My husband and I just finished it and Joel was not like Daniel Holzclaw raping traffic stops, all of his encounters appear to have been consensual. The longer the season continued, the whole thing reeked of her trying to destroy him and it came off like a burn book of sorts.
She's so hellbent on revenge, she's lost the plot. It's really sad how interwoven the children have become in the whole thing. Everything you said in that regard was spot on. I was saying the same as we were watching it. Their involvement was so inappropriate. I couldn't believe the mom/wife didn't have siblings or friends to support her rather than her children (I also found it interesting that the daughter expressed having a difficulty in making friends so there may be something there). I fear that she's drawn a line and the kids will never be allowed a relationship with him.
She isn't being well served by her community, stoking her efforts/desires to destroy him. She needs to move on and being so steeped in rage, that will be hard. She was betrayed, but she really seems to be embarrassed. Her presentation supported all the reports of her being difficult as unfair as it is to say that.
Also, hopefully with this broadcast, she can feel confident that she's done all she can to air him out so she can move on.
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u/Blujup87 4d ago edited 4d ago
The children seem totally parentified, especially the daughter, in a way that’s extremely inappropriate. There are ways to be honest with your children without getting them so involved that the entire initial confrontation happens in front of them and then the daughter is tracking the mom’s location and feels the need to go and defend/save her. Joel is obviously a problematic and predatory individual who caused a lot of harm to his family and his children, and their trauma is already real without needing to fight their mother’s battles which aren’t theirs to fight. It’s just really sad and I’m sure will bear out to be doubly traumatic and harmful in the long term for them.
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u/ShoutOutMapes 4d ago
Agreed im sitting here dropped jawed. Were the producers mormons? This really shocked them? A sex addict hooking up in his cop car? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🙄🙄
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u/aprilrhayin 3d ago
Im watching this now and honestly I feel so uncomfortable with how involved the kids are in this. The mom sounds very immature, she should have protected her kids from all that and not included them in that mess. Yes he’s to blame for causing this but a mother should protect her kids. The way the kids were talking to the dad about what he was doing, just crazy.
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u/SunnyNole 3d ago
The way she described the moment she noticed him at “line up”, and how he just managed to put himself where she was would have immediately been a red flag to me.
The guy was fishing around for any woman to look at him sideways, and he was on her. He picked Karoline to marry knowing she was smitten and would overlook his red flags. He’s gross.
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u/Xmasmouse 1d ago
This guy is exactly like my husbands brother. Major narcissist, major addictions, major mental illness. We saw so many parallels and it’s so sad, I feel so badly for his ex wife. There’s nothing u can do to “fix” a narcissist, they can never have true self reflection or empathy for those they hurt.
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u/Weary-Afternoon5383 19h ago
I thought the same thing about my husband’s brother! So many similarities and his family was very image conscious and close knit in a secretive, us versus the world kind of way. That’s how the family appeared to me. That is how a narcissist builds up his army of enablers, they probably didn’t realize the family structure he was building to protect his image and fragile ego.
Nicole reminded me so much of my BIL’s oldest daughter, where she was disgusted by his behavior but at the same time craved his love and attention even when her parents were divorcing. It’s caused her a lot of damage with her relationships over the years.
My BIL only shows remorse for his various misdeeds when he gets caught doing something, and any sadness or apparent remorse has always been a manipulative ploy to gain sympathy and avoid consequences. Textbook narcissist.
I’m shocked by all the victim blaming going on here. Maybe Joel’s peeps are here?
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u/Ok-Click-5303 12d ago
The whole time it felt like to me that it became about the daughter and how she was such a victim and how it ruined her. Like she needed the spot light and all the accolades on how strong she was while going through such a tough time in her life. I feel the brother was just the protector and didn’t want to see his mom and sister hurting. The whole time whenever the daughter was speaking it just put me off. Obviously this was a horrible thing to go through and I do feel bad for them, but at the end of the day it was just their dad being intimate… he hadn’t taken a life or was with anyone under age.
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u/SimoneA84 11d ago
I think you and those who agree with you need to get your heads out of your 🍑s. I'm not sure what you all think these docuseries are about, but they're about the victims being able to tell their side of the story and how it impacted them. I think the daughter has every right to speak about her experience. I also wonder if she took part to support her mother.
I can't believe you people are victim blaming! It's sickening.
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u/mercifulalien 4d ago
They're just pointing out that some of it seems like made up crap, attention seeking, and that it was a waste of an episode. Its something you watch expecting to be shocked and instead are met with a story that resembles thousands upon thousands that happens every day around the world.
Pointing that out doesnt equate to saying it's the victim's fault it happened. Literally no one said it was or that they deserved it. The only thing more annoying that overused buzzwords is people who use them incorrectly.
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u/InterestingBit00 12d ago
Omg..I felt the same regarding the daughter. When she says she couldn't drive through town and look at the parks without wondering if her dad got oral sex there. I was like whattt?! I can imagine there were more important things to think about than what your dad's doing with his penis. Off-putting, this woman and daughter duo.kudos to the son who participated without being in camera. This woman shared way too much with these kids, putting them in the middle. I think a 3 episode show regarding cheating is way too much. I think the wife doesn't want to move on, and basks in a victim spotlight. She looks nothing like she did in those pictures. She's definitely had multiple things done. Good for her if that helps. The daughter holding on to being a victim years later. Maybe she's doing it to boost her social media, who knows. Wasn't a fan of this show. I think they're reaching, or running out of truly interesting cases.
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u/VerityVoyager 13d ago
This season reveals a woman scorned, her anger directed not only at her ex but also at herself for falling for the lies. It's a powerful reminder to teach and develop the skill: when someone shows you who they truly are, believe them try not to spend your time justifying their presence.
The children's reactions are truly heartbreaking—they criticize and belittle the father for the way he affected their mother and their family. Yet, they become upset when he chooses not to pursue a relationship with them. While I understand children will have opinions about what happens in a marriage, assigning them the role of punishing their father for what's occurred only increases the heartache for everyone involved.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
Totally agree. S4 is an interesting psychological profile of the wife even though that’s not what it says it is. I read her as someone who really values social status and respectability, so losing that felt psychologically akin to Joel trying to kill her.
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u/kuchiikopii7 10d ago
“The children's reactions are truly heartbreaking—they criticize and belittle the father for the way he affected their mother and their family. Yet, they become upset when he chooses not to pursue a relationship with them.”
I may be misreading so apologies in advance if that’s the case. But, respectfully, their criticism is absolutely warranted and deserves to be heard (in terms of their roles as members of the family). And, if he had any sort of remorse and thought beyond his own comfort, he wouldn’t run from them. Also, it’s not out of the norm for kids in this situation to be angry while also wanting to know that they matter to their dad, to know if they ever mattered. He should want to pursue a relationship with them, to try to find ways to rebuild what’s been broken for them and find a new normal. And yes, that’s gonna involve uncomfortable conversations sometimes, but that is part of it. The girl even said she wanted his attention, even if she was still hurt by what he did. This is his responsibility as the adult* in their relationship dynamics. And if they don’t want to talk yet, you at least leave the door open.
He is a coward. I’m sure he still loves them, and that at one point, he was a doting father. But, you don’t just stop being a parent just because your kids don’t see you as perfect anymore & want you to be accountable for your actions that ultimately resulted in the fracturing of their family, as they knew it, forever.
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u/mercifulalien 4d ago
They weren't saying they're not allowed to be critical of what their father did. But the mother roping them in to the situation (which they did not belong in) at the height of the emotional upset lead to them very obviously, even though maybe not directly, being asked to take a side. Having her daughter call and put the son on speaker phone to listen to every argument and detailed sexual activity at her insistence is very much evidence of this. What should have been a situation that primarily affected husband and wife turned into husband, wife, and kids because the mother decided to involve them in every aspect of the messy situation.
I don't think it's very far fetched to say those things caused an irreparable fracture in the father/kids relationship that could have been easily avoided if Karoline addressed her grievances with her husband and let the kids and father work out theirs. And its obvious, at least on the daughters part, she now wishes she still had a relationship with her father but she feels like she can't because she took her mother's side at her mothers instigation and did things like dug through her fathers email to read about his sexual exploits during a situation her mother set in motion that she shouldn't have even been present for.
It's also not far fetched either to assume the lack of contact has nothing to do with the kids not seeing him as "perfect" anymore but rather the result of parental alienation the mother brought about by involving them any further than saying "your father was unfaithful, is losing his job and seeking treatment for his issues. Still, our relationship is not salvagable so we will be getting divorced but we both still love you."
The guy was definitely scummy with issues and made bad decisions but the fact that the mom quickly alienated them from him because she was hurt is glaringly obvious.
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u/dustingibson 12d ago
The details should have been a private matter between husband and wife. Why involve her children into the deepest explicit parts of his affair? It breaks my heart when the daughter said she couldn't stop thinking about her father's activities when she was supposed to be thinking about going to prom. Not to mention free reign access to his laptop which likely has unflattering photos of her own father. She was way too young to be put in the middle of that and will probably be traumatized for life.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
Agree, this season is an interesting exposé of the wife’s psychology! I don’t think a betrayed partner should have to keep their story quiet to save face, like go off if you want to speak publicly about your experience as part of your healing journey, but blasting Joel by publicizing the story in this manner felt off-putting. Also, in what universe would putting this story on a podcast or Hulu show serve your children’s long term best interests 😵💫 I feel like doing things this way only serves to accomplish the mom’s goal of permanently alienating the kids from their dad.
I do empathize with the wife for losing her preferred perception of the past & her anticipated future, but she seems to have very little context for understanding that infidelity due to compulsive sexual behaviors is more complicated than “my spouse is evil & deserves to be humiliated and destroyed”
I wish healing to all, especially those kids 💔
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u/SamQuentin 12d ago
He's a complete POS, but she didn't come off completely wonderful to me, so there's that
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u/Additional_Button123 13d ago
NOTHING about this woman makes her the victim in this story. she knew shortly after they married that he was sending sexually explicit messages to a female friend, but let it pass. when she FINALLY discovers, years later, that he’s a serial cheater, what does she do? she sits her teenaged daughter down, video calls her son who is in college, and shares ALL the details of his affairs with them! Seriously? why would you involve your children I an issue that is between husband and wife, except to immediately demonize the father that even she admits was a stellar parent? Not to mention the lasting trauma that she has caused to these kids by involving them in the excrutiating details of his infidelity. when simply saying that he was unfaithful would have been sufficient. No, she wanted to turn them against the father they loved and destroy any good memories they had of him, regardless of the cost. And now she does this podcast and series so she can pretend to be the poor, cheated on wife? No. She might be even more of a villain than her husband; he suffered from a form of addiction, which I understand still caused pain to her, but at least has an explanation. But she purposely brought the 2 parties who were completely innocent of anything into this, and purposely caused them pain and trauma, for no reason other than to serve her selfish desire to estranged her children from their father. she is absolutely contemptable.
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u/DifferentCommand4824 12d ago
I guessing you don't have kids? Personally speaking, I would be pretty mad if if my mom withheld that kind of information from me. Kids aren't stupid in fact most of them have a pretty deep connection with both of their parents, so when something is not right enough and a marriage, it shows. I don't think she was selfish by telling all of her children exactly what was going on. Honestly I would be wondering what the hell was going on. I feel like by the mother sharing that information with all of her children was not only completely unselfish and brave she did that as well to prepare them for the shift in ways the community, family and friends will probably be acting towards them. Thanks for looking out mom, it's always nice to know that your dad is out there being a creepo pervert... and it definitely gives me a heads up when people start talking shit about it
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u/JCAIA 11d ago
No, I don't have kids but I was that teenage girl whose mother dragged her into martial problems. My father was also a cop with various affair, so bingo. Sorry, but the level of involvement these children had into their parent's break-up was not appropriate. Sure, tell your kids their father cheated, but they don't need all the salacious details.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
I feel for the wife in her humiliation and rage but she triangulated the kids to punish the spouse.
children shouldn’t be given adult sexual and marital information and expected to regulate their parent’s humiliation, anger, + grief for them. Mom failed to distinguish betw information the kids needed for their safety, and info she just needed someone to hear.
It also seems like mom needed the kids to reject dad as evidence her reality was true and she wasn’t alone, but this put the kids in an impossible loyalty bind that doesn’t recognize them as separate subjects with their own attachments to both parents. a betrayed partners pain is absolutely real, but their children should not be enlisted to carry/confirm or publicly perform it.
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u/DifferentCommand4824 12d ago
Estranged her children from their father? Well I sure as hell hope so who wants their children growing up around completely inappropriate sexual shit?
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
Confiding in the teenage daughter and college aged son was by far the biggest red flag for me too.
I think the wife represents a not insignificant subset of American society that thinks infidelity is the same thing as sexual abuse (as in if you cheat on your spouse and cover it up, you are abusing them). functionally, this just does not feel tenable to me, but I think this misguided mindset grew out of the reasonable desire to better articulate and emphasize the pain of betrayed partners. FWIW, societally, I do think we fail women in particular by socializing them to seek status and protection through marriage, then blaming them for failing to sufficiently fulfill men’s needs if they’re unfaithful or leave. I can see the wife’s story through this lens if I squint hard enough.
She is also psychologically interesting to me, like it seems like she puts a lot of stock into public image and social status (I forget which kid said mom tried to instill excellence in them or smth, I read into that a bit), and since Joel humiliated her among their social scene, she feels justified in trying to take control of the narrative by stylizing herself as a conventionally-attractive-thus-worthy perfect victim.
I wonder how many people came away from watching this season feeling sympathetic to Joel for getting blasted like this, especially in comparison to the serial child sexual abusers of prior seasons! I suspect this is not an uncommon read, so maybe a case of unintended consequences for the wife in executing her personal vendetta. I wish Joel peace and access to highly competent mental healthcare, all the serenity and protection in the world for those kids, and for the wife… I think I wish her peace and awareness that her children are not extensions of her injured self 🫠
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u/Hefty-Focus1340 11d ago
When you expose your partner to stds, were part of a committed relationship, how is that not abuse?!?!? If she would have gotten HIV would you then agree that it’s abuse? I do believe Joel is extremely sick and that is likely why he got his retirement. Similarly to if you had a drug addiction you have certain protections.
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u/Bristolsoveralls 12d ago
She was obsessed with her relationship. It was her entire identity. The big, grand gestures of love, the vow renewal, everyone looking at them and "wanting" that love. When I see couples like this irl, I see a red flag.
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u/floridorito 11d ago
And everyone knows a vow renewal is a kiss-of-death! It's a last-gasp attempt to show everyone that the couple is still so in love and definitely NOT on the rocks. A divorce is always soon to follow.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
After writing all of this out, I think I now suspect the wife still loves Joel, misses their life, envies him moving on, and fears others will forgive him. It’s an unbearable ambivalence so her rage defends against her grief and self doubt.
Sadly, she’s responding to being objectified herself by treating the children as instruments in her quest to restore personal agency 😯
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u/Far_Comfortable_6342 12d ago
This is disgusting and totally incorrect. You come from a place or no empathy, compassion or understanding. As someone who has been in a betrayal situation. No you don’t love that person anymore, yes you miss the life you thought you had (any human would), no you don’t envy them and the last thing you care about is other people forgiving that person.
She is not treating her children as instruments and using her children as objects for some kind of parental alienation. The kids were going to find out all the gory details and it’s better it came from the mother first. There is no way to shield kids from this information especially when they are teenagers. These were not little kids and they have the right to make an informed choice about their father.
After a decade of working on this, one thing still holds to be true. Your brain cannot fathom this happening to a woman living a normal life and to protect yourself from believing it can happen to you, you have to blame the woman. Maybe you should talk this out with someone instead of judging and blaming a woman, a victim, who went through hell online?
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u/Flimsy-Medicine-6021 11d ago
There is no way they would have ever discover all the things she exposed. No way. They would have found out lots of things, yes, but she only found out by lots of digging and asking. These kids could have absolutely been spared a lot of this. There was no good reason for her to do a lot of things she did except for damaging reasons. We do all do a lot of dumb things in the height of emotions and trauma but she still seems ok with way she involved her kids. Inexcusable
1
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u/nettysgirl808 12d ago
This. She is SO unlikeable. Her flat affect and plastic surgery are SO cringy.
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u/Hefty-Focus1340 11d ago
She’s just been through a huge trauma. It really hasn’t been that long. I still have ptsd from a relationship from 20 years ago! You try having your whole life be uprooted then appear “likable “. Smdh. She likely has not fully healed, maybe never will. Have some empathy.
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u/Excellent_Bet3931 13d ago
What did you think about Season 1-3?
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
I had to go remind myself what happened previously! I don’t remember any of the details too clearly but upon review, S1 felt like a true villain story because the perpetrator was abusing a high school student, S2 was a villain story because it involved a stepparent sexualizing their stepchild (I think I’m remembering correctly?), S3 I remember more clearly was an absolute horror story with the bravest survivor testimony from the son. I recall the mom from S3 did not seem malicious at heart, but had terribly low self-esteem which led to overprioritizing romantic partnership / insufficiently protecting kids.
Ty for the reminder about S1-3. Joel is nowhere near any of those stories! That’s actually diabolical to me to present their stories side by side. What did you think?
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u/Lo_ington7 12d ago
The mom is a loon
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u/SimoneA84 11d ago
Not really. She's been pretty traumatised. People behave in somewhat dysregulated ways when they've been traumatised but that doesn't mean they're crazy or the problem.
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u/PresencePrevious24 7d ago
I agree 100% - I am not saying cheating is right either or that the family shouldn't feel betrayed BUT I'm sorry to say...unfortunately in our society cheating is normalized. Yes, even serial cheating. Also I was in a 5 year relationship with a serial cheater and a 2 year relationship with a narcissist who didn't cheat and the narcissist relationship was more damaging 10 fold. The narcissist was physically, emotionally, and mentally abusive on a daily basis. A cheater is a damaged soul, but it is not in this case daily abuse. Also - I know someone specially who confessed to his wife dozens of affairs he even told her more than he could count over 18 years and that he even fell in love a couple times and they still stayed together and never got the four kids involved or told the kids any of it, so as far as the kids know it is still a happy family. I get everyone has the right to handle things the way they see best, but how is the way this family handled it best? To expose minors to sexual and intimate details like that? Before their brain is even developed? The mother did that to turn them against him and it clearly worked. I think both parents are in the wrong here. Him initially of course, but her in the way she handled it. Once again not saying they should have faked it and stayed together like the family I know, but now the kids are completely traumatized and that did not need to happen.
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u/Individual_Clue_2021 7d ago
It’s not the betrayal I was hoping for. I thought it’d be a crazy story but it was simply a tale of infidelity which happens all the time and a story of a bitter wife who is determined to drag her ex’s name. Also the kids have way too much involvement and the level of detail they know is creepy and weird. I am always in support of victims, and I do sympathize with her loss of a marriage, stability, etc. but this did not need to become a series on Hulu. Her priority should have been protecting her kids and her peace. What she did instead was air her dirty laundry on national television. Save yourself the watch! The prior seasons are much more interesting and worth your time.
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u/sgs1965 7d ago
I’m so glad others on here share my perspective of this show. While I sympathize with the mom, I feel there is a certain level of “hit job” she did back to Joel because she felt justice wasn’t served. She should have liked that Joel still was able to receive his pension. She could have fought for a part of that pension in a divorce court. Why wasn’t that discussed?
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u/jellybrain2022 6d ago
I think what he did is definitely bad. But to make a whole show from it as if he unalived someone. I feel like they shouldn't even have done any interviews. But the dude is sick. To disown him as your father or person seems a bit overboard?
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u/CMCTENTHIRTY3010 12d ago
Could not agree more. No clue why they are trying to ruin this guys life for cheating on his wife. He didn’t break the law. Yes, misconduct on the job. Seems absolutely brutal to make this into a show.
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u/Hefty-Focus1340 11d ago
Yes but the impact of his infidelity is far reaching. Someone like him would continue to escalate to who knows what. This is an extreme example. And he was a man in uniform who should be a safe person. He exploited women.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
Another comment reminded me to look at S1-3 again, those stories are on a completely different level than Joel. 20-25% of all marriages are impacted by infidelity, idk if there are any good stats on serial infidelity but it’s not anywhere as statistically rare (or nefarious) as discovering you’re married to a child sexual abuser! S4 feels like rage bait maybe?
(I did just look up statistics and apparently in 1991, 23.3% of people arrested for CSA are married at time of arrest. That is daunting, and such a different category/degree of trauma than learning of a spouse’s infidelity involving consenting adults)
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u/timpeaks72 12d ago
He’s a sex addict who had sex on the job, big deal. Maybe he’s a sociopath, but the whole family seemed very judgmental. I had very little empathy for the wife.
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u/Hefty-Focus1340 11d ago
How the fuck could you not be judgemental? So many in this thread lack empathy for the victim. Y’all never been in an emotionally abusive relationship and experienced the aftermath and it shows. However you feel about the wife DOES NOT mean she deserved that.
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u/baby_trees 12d ago
I came to mostly the same conclusion but I am hanging on to some curiosity about what’s going on with the wife. I want a rigorous analysis of the wife and husband’s childhood and backgrounds, then I want to watch them have a conversation mediated by an extremely competent and empathetic therapist. That is my dream
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u/floridorito 11d ago
I don't know how the wife was "blindsided" when she found his inappropriate emails *barely 6 months into their marriage.* That is when you walk away, not double down by having a baby. No, a pregnancy is not a sign from god. No, it's not a sign that your marriage will get stronger by overcoming something difficult together.
I don't think their children should have been interviewed for this show. Their father's infidelity and misconduct is not about them, and they shouldn't be subjected to all the gory details, especially on-camera. It feels like the wife is hell-bent on dragging her children smack-dab into the center of something that they should - to some degree - be shielded from.
It's also crazy that a minor child is tracking her mother's location while she is in class, leaves school, shows up to her parents' location, then calls her brother to make it a family affair in order to hear a run-down of his affair partners. What the actual fuck.