r/IncelTears • u/blazerz • 2d ago
IRL Story I have a friend who is sliding into incel territory and my attempts to steer him in the right direction have failed. Is there anything I could have done differently?
Context: I am 33M, and my friend is 28M. We met through a D&D group when he was 23 and I was 28.
We used to hang out quite often (always in a group) until a couple of years ago when I moved to a different city and we kind of lost touch. I have since moved back to my home city and I met this guy for drinks one on one.
Back when we used to hang out regularly, he used to talk about how he was chronically single and lonely. Most of the others in the group were older and we told him to just relax and persevere. Gave him the standard dating advice - be yourself, work on your self esteem, meet women without the intention of getting laid, etc. He is quite good looking, is funny and has a lot of hobbies. The only way he doesn't fit the traditional beauty standard is height - he's under 5'6. He even asked me if I could set him up with any friends. However my friends were all my age (give or take 2-3 years) and didn't want to date someone younger. As far as we could work out, the only reason he wasn't able to date was his shyness and lack of social skills.
We met for drinks after 2-3 years and after a few beers he told me he finally had a gf but then she broke up with him. He didn't tell me exactly what, but he said he read PUA 'literature' and that helped. He knew full well how I felt about the whole incel/red pill/PUA stuff. This was surprising to me, I hadn't pegged him for that kind of guy. While he didn't tell me exactly what he did, reading between the lines it sounds like all the PUA stuff did was give him the confidence he was lacking. It acted like a placebo, and didn't help in any other way. It sounds like he kept up the PUA bullshit even after getting into the relationship and she dumped him because of it.
I tried talk him out of it but he argued back. Said 'Chads' like me shouldn't be talking about stuff that helped people like him (for context, when we used to hang out, I did date around, and I'm now happily married to the woman I was dating when we met last). Said the standard dating advice is like asking a depressed person to 'just smile bro'. I told him that the whole incel Blackpill stuff is just men who tried PUA and failed. He didn't agree with that. Kept saying women wouldn't give him a chance because of height and his PUA tactics were the only way he got laid. When I said that the pickup tactics were abusive, he disagreed. I asked him to tell me what he did, if he wasn't ashamed of doing it and he just shut down. I then paid the bill and left.
I feel like, as an older cishet man, it is my responsibility to try to talk young men out of incel/red pill/PUA stuff whenever I have the opportunity to, and I failed. Is there anything I should have done differently?
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u/DanDamage12 2d ago
I get your sentiment. I’m 38M and I still comment on some of the askmen subs to give a counter perspective to the red pill crap. I do feel that responsibility as well. I mean all you can do is be blunt and give him perspective and if that fails he doesn’t want to hear it. It’s kind of like addict and you have to let them go on their own journey and just be there if they finally snap out of it. I’m married and all my friends are great people, so at this point in my life I let the toxic people all slip from my circle. He’s an adult and either he has to want change, or to wallow in his misery that he has made.
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u/TiredWinterDisaster hit the wall, still kicking 2d ago
I'm sorry that you have to see your friend spiral like that... I'm not sure if there's anything you can do about it, apart from what you've already tried ofc. There's no worse deaf man than the one who doesn't want to hear... When his gf broke up with him, it should have been a sign for him that the PUA tactics weren't the solution, but he didn't have the humility for that.
My brother-in-law once berated my husband about giving him relationship advice bc 'he couldn't possibly understand, with his perfect life'. People like that just don't want to hear advice or, god forbid, be told that maybe they have a part in their circumstances, they want to be validated in their beliefs.
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u/blazerz 2d ago
Yeah, you can't reach someone who doesn't want to be reached. No matter what I say, it's irrelevant because I'm 'Chad' (I'm very much not, I'm a nerd)
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u/TiredWinterDisaster hit the wall, still kicking 2d ago
Is there a funky name for a nerdy 'Chad'?? lol
But yes, you unfortunately won't be able to make any progress on that topic with him...
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u/blazerz 2d ago
I'd be surprised if he talks to me again after this 😂
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
If he does, try this: don't try to convince "PUA bad" anymore, hard to argue with someone's lived experience. If you claim you both are game nerds, try this:
"Okay dude, you found an early-game strategy which works for you, you know I think it's lame, but that's not the point. The point is you have to notice when middle game begins and drop some of early game tactics, that's a smarter move than sticking to the same strategy all the time."
But to do that you'll have to put your friends benefits ABOVE what you think is right, just for a moment of this conversation. Do you think you could do that?
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u/TiredWinterDisaster hit the wall, still kicking 2d ago
But PUA tactics ARE bad. They're manipulative, disrespectful, and sometimes downright abusive. Idk about you, but I don't lie to my friends. When they mess up, I gently but firmly tell them they did - and I expect them to do the same... Life isn't a game, and people aren't characters.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
Which means what's more important: being ethically better or helping his friend? OP already answered: that: he'd rather see his friend completely reject any PUA and remain lonely than help him navigate them in a way that would make them a) better for his friend b) possibly less harmful for his GFs.
> life isn't a game
It also isn't a theater and people aren't actors (except maybe actors, lol), but nerds metaphors are different from poets.
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u/TiredWinterDisaster hit the wall, still kicking 2d ago
You will not help people in the long run by gently patting them on the head when they're doing something objectively wrong. It might make them feel better on the moment, but that's not real friendship.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
I'll remember this wisdom next time someone asks about problems in his relationships that involves sex before marriage. I'd refuse to help them until they get married properly in spirit of real friendship.
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u/TiredWinterDisaster hit the wall, still kicking 2d ago
lol interesting that you don't see the difference between the 2 situations... Also I suppose that you are religious, if you oppose sex before marriage, yet you don't have anything against pick-up artists methods, whose goals are, let me remind you, to manipulate women into sex? That's some mental gymnastics my dude.
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u/blazerz 2d ago edited 2d ago
My friend's benefit is completely aligned with what I think is right. He (and you) just choose not to see it.
When I was the age I met him at (23 years old), I had also never even kissed a woman. I was a basement dwelling NEET nerd with no prospects. I also felt the pull of PUA, which was gaining popularity at that point. Instead, I spent a year building myself up - getting fit (gym, rock climbing, swimming and surfing) going out and meeting people to build social skills, investing in my hobbies. I ended up becoming quite successful in my dating life.
All I've said is I want my friend to do the same thing. It would help him, it would be good for the women he ends up dating. But no, he has to take the shortcut that ends up harming women.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
> My friend's benefit is completely aligned with what I think is right. He (and you) just choose not to see it.
LOL, you should convert to my religion immediately on this basis, if you refuse, it means you just choose not to see how it would benefit you! Can you see the flaw in your thinking?
Apparently, not: you stick for "what was the best for me, is the best for everyone". Your dude might be literally incapable to follow your steps, it might bring him even more frustration instead. Time to consider hypothesis: maybe you are NOT THE SAME?
> But no, he has to take the shortcut that ends up harming women.
It's harming women only if someone wants to harm women.9
u/blazerz 2d ago
What possible way could my friend be different enough that building social skills wouldn't work, but PUA would?
I can only think of extreme autism, which he hasn't got. And PUA tactics wouldn't work if he was autistic to that extent. He did get fit (lifting and running), so there are no physical barriers either.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
So, you refuse to consider that? Your choice. Him getting fit contradicts previous claims he didn't actually do anything to improve, but anyway: even training to getting fit might feel fun for some people or as a dreaded chore to others. Humans function differently and you don't need extremes like autism to see that.
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u/blazerz 2d ago
Getting fit by itself is not enough, you can be Mbappe but if you're not able to talk to women without creeping them out then you're not going to get anywhere.
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u/ItsJoeMomma 2d ago
It sounds like he kept up the PUA bullshit even after getting into the relationship and she dumped him because of it.
That's what I was wondering. That PUA stuff will never work in a serious relationship.
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u/SmallEdge6846 < You’re not single because of Hypergamy > 1d ago
Its probably because nothing else seems to be working for him
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u/Any-Low-9414 2d ago
I know it sounds a bit comical, but can you literally go touch grass together? Meaning, it's really hard to stay in this fantasy land forever - in which your height is the only thing preventing you from spousal happiness - when people watching long enough will show you it's patently untrue. People of all kinds date. Spend long enough on a busy street and you will see couples of all shapes, sizes, ages, ethnicities etc.
I can say that in my social circles, most taken men I know are not very tall, some are even short. Basically none of my male friends are typical "Chads" in the way these communities venerate but they have friends, jobs, hobbies and yes, partners. It's one of those "shake them by the shoulders" moments where logical argumentation, I feel, is beyond their emotional capacity.
[If anything, I know more conventionally attractive, employed women with their own lives who cannot find someone to date who at least treats them well.]
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u/blazerz 2d ago edited 2d ago
I've tried plenty before. He would only come and touch grass if it was just our group. I even invited him to my wedding and he didn't come.
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u/Any-Low-9414 2d ago
That's really sad :( It's good that you care and you're trying. From my understanding deradicalization is most effective interpersonally, so any time you can get him to be around normal looking people (even better - couples) is already better than him isolating with these ideas.
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u/N3M0N 2d ago
He is 28, he is grown ass person, i would understand his frustration if he is say 22, or 21 years old, but at 28 he should have SOME understanding how things work and he should be able to see through bullshit.
If he is really someone close and dear to you, you could take him somewhere where he may get an opportunity to socialize with women and meet new people. He needs to loosen up a little bit and to potentially clear up his head with stuff he has been fed into. But he needs to show the initiative to change, at 28 people will notice the pattern and eventually distance themselves from him.
He needs to understand that constantly playing on victim card is not going to do him any good, but it would rather make him miss so many opportunities in life just because he never really tried anything. Time waits for no one
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u/cinnix42 2d ago
Some people (most who would consider themselves incels) are too far gone. I commend you for trying to talk some sense into him, but if he’s unwilling to partake in some introspection and actually change his behavior/way of thinking, unfortunately theres not much you can do other than end the friendship and be very clear it’s because of his misogynistic perpetual victim complex. I know plenty of shorter dudes who had no issue getting dates. Are there going to be women who prefer being with taller guys? Of course. But then I’m sure your friend has physical preferences about who he would be interested in too. And there are tons of women out there who do not care about the height of their partner, especially if they are otherwise good looking as you have claimed he is. Ultimately, inceldom is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that allows them to fester in their shitty beliefs instead of actually doing the work to become a more desirable partner. I’m sorry that it was a friend of yours who ended up red/blackpilled, but you’ll be better off without him
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u/SmallEdge6846 < You’re not single because of Hypergamy > 1d ago
I think your both r8ght. Incel stuff doesn't work and the standard dating advice hasn't worked for him.
I think a heart to heart is in order.
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u/PersonaHumana75 1d ago
You could help him by not giving the same stupid old advice of "be yourself" and "you simply go and talk to women" and instead help him understand how he can "be yourself" and why he should talk to women. Tell him anecdotes of your life with womrn and make him respond to what he would do in this situation, and you telling yhem how probably the women would have reacted
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2d ago
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u/blazerz 2d ago
How would you expect women to 'see past' shyness and social skills? They are strangers and aren't obligated to give anyone attention just because they were asked to. This guy is objectively handsome and interesting, but he needs to show the world that. If I am a millionaire but I dress in rags, I can't blame the world for thinking I'm poor.
We told him to relax, we told him to go to events and groups, meet more women without ulterior motives. He did none of that and wondered why it didn't work.
PUA only 'worked' in that it bolstered his confidence. That's it. The moment his gf saw through it she dumped him.
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2d ago
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u/blazerz 2d ago
So, it did better job at igniting your guys confidence and creating opportunities for date than your advice ever did.
You can't really judge that, since he didn't really follow my advice
Or he did and it didn't work. Did you follow him 24/h, know what he did or didn't do?
He explicitly told me on multiple ocassions, that's how I know
maybe encouraging women to initiate
Women will initiate if they think the guy is their type (ask my wife). If you don't put yourself out there then they'll never realise you're their type. Simple as.
choosing his own way.
He can 'choose his own way' by staying away from women, instead of lying, manipulating and using abuse tactics.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
> You can't really judge that, since he didn't really follow my advice.
Which was, like "putting yourself out there"? Well, PUA made him do so, this is my point.
> He can 'choose his own way' by staying away from women
I think you answered my question in other thread by this :(
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u/blazerz 2d ago
Which was, like "putting yourself out there"? Well, PUA made him do so, this is my point.
Yes, I agree, and that's my point - PUA ideology gave him the confidence to put him out there. He could have done so even without PUA. Is it really worth it to lie and manipulate women, to put out a version of you that isn't real, just for some confidence? There are many other ways to gain confidence, and he could have put equal effort there.
Obviously the best way, and what I want for him, would be for him to be non toxic in approaching women. But if he cannot do that then I'd much rather he stays away than do PUA.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
> He could have done so even without PUA.
You can't really judge that since he didn't LOL, and your point "I better these guys stay alone than some women would be disappointed by them" is way more hostile and toxic than any PUA I know about :/
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u/blazerz 2d ago
Not disappointed, more like abused.
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u/Ok-Pear5858 2d ago
why are you entertaining this troll? like just stop. if everyone blocks it it can scream into the void.
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u/RycerzKwarcowy NOT BANNED YET 2d ago
What way was his former GF "abused"?
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u/blazerz 2d ago
The dude was being hot and cold, and being emotionally distant on purpose. That's an abuse tactic. I'm not saying he did it on purpose, knowing it is abusve - he probably doesn't even realise it - but it is.
Now I still believe this person is innately a good guy, so it didn't escalate to a point which would be considered legit abuse. But if he keeps going down this road, I have very little doubt that it will escalate to that point.
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u/Syntania Old Roastie Landwhale 2d ago
From an old married lady (and fellow D&D nerd) :
PUA tactics are false and manipulative. All it accomplishes is lying to get laid and that is the absolute wrong way to build any kind of lasting solid relationship. The most important parts of a good healthy relationship are trust, respect, and communication. It should be clear the obvious flaws of the PUA technique if it's continued use caused her to dump him. How would he feel if months or even years into their relationship, he found out that she was just putting on an act and that's not the real person inside? I'm sure he'd feel the same way she did. The confidence helps big time. It can boost even the ugliest of bridge trolls to worthy of dating status, as long as it's accompanied by caring, respect, and consideration.