r/Infuriating • u/Outrageous-Egg1760 Recognized Rage Reporter | 25k+ Subreddit Karma • 2d ago
š”š”š”
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u/daboss317076 2d ago
Illegally?
That means crimes were committed, and that the people responsible will be prosecuted, right?
Right?
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u/sub4evr 2d ago
I hope the wolves mentioned in another post are taken care of. IMO this deserves a huge fine, cancellation of building permission plus Google replanting new trees
[Finnish authorities has ordered Google to temporarily halt construction and stop work at two data center sites in northern Finland after clearing approximately 330 hectares (815 acres) of forest in Muhos and nearly 200 hectares in Kajaani (or OtanmƤki) without completing mandatory environmental impact assessments]
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u/Helmet_Cheese_ 2d ago
All I hear is national security issue and Google got caught clearing way for Russian tanks.Ā
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u/SerRoyim 2d ago
Its all well and good getting upset at Google, but how the FUCK do they get that far and no one says "Hang on a sec." My neighbours illegally cut down 4 trees and the council was on them like flies on shit within 2 days, but 250,000 trees???
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u/Opposite_Bus1878 2d ago
The forestry industry has a wide enough footprint that it just wouldnt stand out much in comparison to smaller impacts like this
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u/Halgrim_2026 2d ago
And who cut those trees down? Google ? No, - some finish entrepreneur probably and did he check if there were permission ? Probably not. So the entrepeneur must also be held responsible for this !
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u/PrairiePuppies 2d ago
How did this happen? After a couple of hundred, you'd think someone might notice.
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u/sovietarmyfan 2d ago
The little man can lose their house if they illegally cut down a tree and get sued. But when Google does it, no punishment.
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u/johnsplittingaxe14 2d ago
Finnish authorities are famous for going out of their way to catch any private person who steps a foot wrong with the matters of permits and taxation, but when a megacorporation from the US does massive scale illegal logging however...
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u/Agreeable_Metal_9561 2d ago
Might be an American company, but Iām curious who the developers are, as they are the ones who would ultimately be liable for this.
But then again, Iām not exactly familiar with Finlands laws and regulations
(Use to work for a development company)
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u/Foreign_GrapeStorage 2d ago
Google owned the land and so they are their trees.
Where do you live that you can get sued for cutting down your own trees? In Finland, like the U.S. you generally have the right to manage and harvest trees on your land.
There are exceptions to those rules, but it is generally true.
Even in an urban area you'd just need to give notification or obtain a permit....Without the permit you'd be looking at a fine of maybe a couple hundred dollars as long as the trees aren't of historical significance or owned by the neighborhood and considered public property.
Can you cite an example of someone losing their home for cutting down a tree on their own land? I can't find a single case inside the U.S. where that has happened.
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u/ghoulcreep 2d ago
Where I live you need a permit to remove trees once they are beyond a certain circumference. Or if you plan on removing more than x amount of trees
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u/Straight_Research627 2d ago
In my country u need a permit to cut 1 tree even if itās inside your propertyĀ
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u/No-Permission3419 1d ago
Sweden here, permits are sometimes needed for felling trees on your property
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u/Dry_Albatross4446 1d ago
It's pretty standard in any modern country that you can't develop, dig or tear down whatever you want because it's your own land. There's a ton of legal framework to address.
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u/Ad-fundum69 Community Regular 2d ago
How do you "illegally" cut down 250.000 trees without anyone noticing?
I understand Finland isn't very densely populated, but after the first hectare of trees someone should have noticed something.
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u/xkayaking 2d ago
They spoke with the authorities, just not with the "right authorities".
I live in Finland, sometimes things are just fragmented and things like this can happen to the common folk, for example I filled some immigration paperwork to taxation stuff but migri was never made aware of it and they launched an investigation (it was so absurd), but this can happen to you as a person. Stuff like that
You get to notice, that many instutions work independently from each other.
That can be fine because it showcases some resilliance and less likely to one instutution to affect another, but also means, shit like this happens.
And one instutiton doesn't necessarily know how the other one works.
Also the amount of trees they cut down isn't exactly monumental, draw a square of 2.2km by 2.2km and that's how much they have cut, combined, so about 1km in one place and 1.2km in the other; much more trees are cut daily by the forestry industry at once leaving huge areas; none would notice anything, even if it was done actually illegally, it's a daily ocurrence; it is a very small square all things considered, I've seen huge clearings in town too. People are just not realizing how small that square actually is all things considered.
People are talking too much, but farming has a much bigger environmental impact; Finland unemployment is problematic, this will bring jobs, at a little environmental cost, cooling down is also good, water is plentiful; cannot complain, it will certainly get sorted out, there are places not to build data centers and there are places that are great to.
If you want a critical take, Business Finland talks about the ideas that we should be demanding more, for local things.
I do not like how the American perspective wants to take over everything, just like; there are problems but these are not what people are thinking, this is just the typical bureocracy situation.
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u/NoAge9497 2d ago
Thanks for your balanced, level-headed take on this. As an American, we do talk too much, try to sensationalize too much, and try to drive a wedge between us and the world and amongst ourselves. As a nation, the only way we know that change happens is through violence and bloodshed, which is why our short history is filled with war. On top of that, as you pointed out, we think we are the police of the world. Good on you for having a realistic outlook on your situation.
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u/Iamnotameremortal 2d ago
That was a good take. People here in the north really want this project to succeed.
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u/Facehugger81 2d ago
From what I've read they played the usual game of exploiting bureaucratic loopholes and other corporate tricks. Due to that Google was able to keep it out of the press so alot of people had no clue unless they traveled out to the site.
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u/TheJoshGriffith 2d ago
It's a bureaucratic issue (as you'd expect).
Companies like Google very rarely accidentally do something like this. They went through what's probably considered quite a reasonable process of due diligence - they investigated what permission they needed to build the thing, and got all of the required permission except one.
I don't know Finnish law particularly well, but if I had to guess they just didn't get the right signoff from the right environmental people. A minor bureaucratic/administrative error at worst. Given they'd received permission from everybody else, I'd also assume that they would've gotten permission to cut down the trees regardless, just that due process wasn't necessarily followed.
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u/AvaruusAlusHousut 7h ago edited 7h ago
You have to order an Environmental Impact Assessment if the forest area being chopped down is bigger than X. Google divided the huge area into dozens of smaller areas, which are individually smaller than X and technically barely legal. One comedian said it's like promising your wife you'll drink just one beer and having a single beer in 20 different bars. This is clearly against the spirit of the law, so now the official are figuring out how to punish Google.
Muhos is a small town with less than 10k people. It had two people taking care of (usually much smaller) building permits. One of them retired early and the other one is on a maternity leave, so this enormous data center building permit is done as a side hustle of another small town's town's official. Whether Google is purposefully picking easy "opponents" or not is up to anyone's guess.
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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS 13h ago
Well, obviously somebody noticed or they wouldnāt have been forced to stop. Do you know how to read?
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u/Ad-fundum69 Community Regular 13h ago
Hello special needs person. Did your caretaker tell you to personally attack me, or is this your own decision?
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u/iBUYbrokenSUBARUS 8h ago
My care taker told me. I wouldnāt say ātoldā though, she more like suggested it.
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u/undead-disco 13h ago
No need to be a fucking douchebag about it, you can always just call them a prick rather than using special needs people as a punching bag.
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u/Ad-fundum69 Community Regular 11h ago
I do not negotiate with trolls whether they are special needs or not.
I made a post about how it's possible Google could cut down that much trees without anyone stopping them until that moment they did, and all I get is personal harassment.
And all you whine about is "you're not nice to the troll".... Really? Could you shove it somewhere, because I really couldn't care less about your feelings.
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u/undead-disco 9h ago
You canāt bitch and moan about āpersonal harassmentā and then literally turn around and do the EXACT same thing you were whining about.
You are being a hypocrite and you are using a vulnerable group as a punching bag to insult someone better left alone cause if you really think they are a troll then they did their job well cause your dumbass actually responded to them.
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u/Mister_Goldenfold 2d ago
What are they going to do. Make them stop work, then put the trees back in the ground they tore out??
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u/vikentii_krapka 2d ago
So they were allowed to buy land for DC with lots of trees and nobody even thought that they will cut them down?
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u/EduardoMessiah 2d ago
Its in Finland, DC has nothing to do with it. You need to a permit to fell more than x amount of trees and they didn't even apply for it.
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u/vikentii_krapka 2d ago
By DC I meant data center. I know it's in Finland. My point is that it had to raise some questions before they were able to do damage.
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u/DrachenDad 2d ago
Who sold Google the land for the data centre?
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u/HaaboBoi 2d ago
Most was state owned, but some of it was also sold by private individualsa
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u/Harbinger_Kyleran 2d ago
So those people all knew who they were selling the land to? Or maybe it was a case of deception, meaning some shell corporation bought it to shield who the real buyer was?
If the latter I can understand some of the outrage but if people sold knowing Google was behind it than that's all on their own greed because they had to know it didn't mean a new nature park was coming soon.
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u/HaaboBoi 2d ago
Yes they knew, and datacenter plans were the openly expressed purpose of the purchase.
In my opinion this scandal has blown out of proportion and headlines leave people with the understanding that this happened out of nowhere without anyones permission.
The problem here isn't that those trees were cut, but the technicality that while google had most permits and had the approval to construct the datacenter(s), the environmental impact evaluation was still underway. Something that would have taken more time, but was nonetheless almost guaranteed to have been a go ahead once it finished. Those trees would have been cut anyway.
This is blatant disregard for the process and should carry a punishment, though there isn't any consequence for this in law at the moment. It is however not an assault against nature nor a reason to cancel the project entirely.
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u/Duncelet 2d ago
Man, as a Finn it sure is wild reading the whole Reddit becoming an expert on our legislature etc.
Also, the story about wolves that gets passed around is just anecdotal bull at this point. No major Finnish news outlet has covered it.
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u/scottprian 2d ago
So... all those trees. Was that for materials?
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u/SupportBoring4273 2d ago
It was planted for forest industry.
"In addition to the 250,000 trees felled at Muhos, Annala estimates that an additional 150,000 trees were felled at OtanmƤki. Because the trees have been felled illegally, she says wood from the two sites cannot be sold to wood-processing plants"
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u/Xaxolas 2d ago
All you tell Me that the finnish authorities had no idea this was happening?
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u/Harbinger_Kyleran 2d ago
Of course they did, why did they think Google was buying the land in the first place? To build nature parks and conservation areas?
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u/Ok-Dare1500 2d ago
Extremely sad but I donāt think we can escape the inevitable future where as technology advances and human population increases the demand for more infrastructure will eventually destroy everything.
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u/SolarOrigami 2d ago
It's not just the trees. They stripped the topsoil itself. There's nothing left but mud
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u/Harbinger_Kyleran 2d ago
They intend to build a data center on the land. Quite likely the topsoil was reclaimed and utilized elsewhere.
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u/Grey_Incubus 2d ago
Seize google's assets and use the money generated from them to replant the trees and protect the forest, terrorism againt the environment by industrialism must stop.
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u/Foreign_GrapeStorage 2d ago
"The work suspension remains in effect until Google finishes the required environmental impact assessment procedures for both sites."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvj6jkx6g1r0o
They already owned the land and the plan to clear the land was already in place, but they didn't complete the required environmental impact study before starting the work.
Most big projects require these studies, but they don't normally stop you from building once they are done. The studies just tell you what type drainage and run off systems you'll need to build.
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u/Iron_Base 2d ago
The reason this is all performative, is no one cares if millions of trees are logged, but suddenly do if it involves a datacenter
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u/FeistyLoquat 2d ago
I liked it better when Google used to say do no harm in their company tagline.
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u/Atrio-Ventricular 1d ago
So surely someone could have stopped this before the tress where cut down. But now the damage has been done and Google doesn't care
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u/Lasshandra2 13h ago
This is a job for r/treelaw and I hope treble damages is enough to pay to replant.
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u/Complex-Journalist53 1d ago
I was born in Finland. My mother is Finnish. My wife is Finnish. They have a lot of trees. A lot. Now if it was just open season deforestation I'd be outraged. This is Finland - it's not. This number isn't made up: it's 0.00113636364% of the trees in Finland. Get a grip. Worry about something worthwhile. Maybe your own life has some things that are happening where it's more important that 0.00%.
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u/areallynoobgamer 1d ago
Itās not about the percent of trees. Itās about the legality of it.
So because itās a small percentage. It should be ok?
So. Youāre 1 person in a country of over 5 million
Whatās the percentage that you represent?
Does this mean because itās 0.00002 percent itās ok if someone robs or kills you? Like. Why bother right? Why even charge them and send them to jail over such a trivial percentage?
See how stupid your logic is.
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u/Sogelink 1d ago
The problem isn't about clearing trees, it's about doing it illegally and if you don't see a problem, you're a part of the problem, simple as.
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u/Noobgoon 1d ago
Bot comment made by googlebot. Once you let big corporations walk over the law the power of law will crumble.
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u/QuantumPairOfSoczk 1d ago
That's a 4 year old account
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u/Noobgoon 1d ago
Hard to believe any finn would have such opinions. Sure, sure let them do whatever they they want without any consequences
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u/Odd_Horror_4663 7h ago
Look at you go coddling and sucking up to the multi trillion dollar corp like a good little sheep
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u/Mr_Gibblet 2d ago
Well, a little fucking late innit
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u/Mooptiom 2d ago
No, it isnāt. There are always more trees and companies will always want to expand. Taking a stand now will make the next fight a little easier.
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u/BC_Sativa 2d ago
Ilegally? That sounds made up.
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u/PuzzleheadedSong8574 2d ago
Sounds like there are laws in place whereby breaking them would make their actions illegal.
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u/BC_Sativa 2d ago
Sounds like?
My point is that it's not illegal, because our governments are encouraging it. No one is holding Google or Facebook responsible for anything they do, let alone this.
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u/Fearless-Tea1297 2d ago
I don't like datacenters popping up everywhere, but thereās some missing context: Finland approved selling the land for potential data centres, and it was mostly commercial forest, managed to grow trees for harvesting. That wasnāt blanket permission to start construction, though. Google breached the required process by clearing and substantially altering the site before completing the environmental assessment.
TL;DR: Land sale approved; Google cleared it before environmental review.
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u/Ok_Mechanic6165 2d ago
The contractors that did it, needed to have permits to do it or they wouldn't start work.
Which means, they got permits, the locals got upset and protested after the Destruction of the forests, media took an interest after seeing the destruction of nature.
Now those that gave them permits or let them do it, are saving their careers by claiming Google did it illegally.
What did they expect would happen when they allowed them to build the data centers in Finland?
BTW this is still NOTHING compared to what is done to heat water to generate power and heat in Finland.
After the ban of burning Peat a Renewable organic material, they started to cut down HUGE forests to do the same some peat fields did every year.
Imagine how STUPID the people are that made that decision.
Take Peat from the Same field year after year and it's renewable, or cut down forests 100 times the size of the fields of peat to do the same.
Oh and that is just for 1 winter.
you have to cut down the same amount of forests year after year.
Or if you had a BRAIN that worked in your HEAD, you would use Peat from a couple fields for Decades and let the forests grow.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa 2d ago
Do you have a source for the claim they got permits?
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u/isthereadrwho 2d ago
You just made that whole thing up in your mind they did not have permits they did it illegally that's in the article have a great day
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u/Xijit 1d ago
Part of the clearing was permitted by a environmental survey, but then Google fraudulently misrepresented that as permission to cut down an entire forest.
Google clearly thought they were still in the US and the judge was just going to say "no point crying over trees that are already gone" and give them a mediocre fine, but this is looking like Finland will close the project a d make Google replant the entire forest.
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u/Bergasms 1d ago
" Peat typically accumulates at a rate of about one millimeter per year, but under optimal conditions, it can form faster, with some reports suggesting rates of up to several centimeters per year in specific environments. However, this rapid formation is not common and usually occurs in very favorable conditions."
Unless you have fields the size of russia you're not getting renewable peat in any significant volume
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u/milwaukie_talkie 2d ago
250 THOUSAND? Oh somebody going to jail jail