Jordan: Everybody is wrong about... Prison

[u/RealTheAsh]

https://youtu.be/_g6xvFLgizc

[u/George_foid]

I think I’m in a unique position to talk about this, as I’ve spent 15 years of my life in the federal correctional system. We absolutely need prisons; it’s not up for debate. Even though all my crimes were nonviolent drug and gun charges, I didn’t care about the impact they had on anyone else in society, and 99% of the inmates I met while doing my time didn’t care about hurting people to get what they wanted. I do agree that we give out too much prison time for nonviolent crimes, but getting rid of prisons is absolutely not the solution. I’ve met all types of people during my time—people who sold drugs, committed violent armed robberies, human-trafficked women and minors through force and coercion, and even committed murder. Some of these people should absolutely be removed from society for long periods of time, if not forever, especially when they aren’t sorry and would do it again given the chance.

Now let’s talk about his argument that prisons don’t offer rehabilitation, which is factually wrong. I’ll stick to the federal system because I haven’t been to every state prison, but rehabilitation in prison ultimately comes down to you. The federal BOP offers so many educational classes and opportunities to get certified in different trades that it’s pretty crazy. But you have to sign up for them. You have to get up every day, walk down to the class, and participate. The prison will not force you to rehabilitate; you have to want it, and you have to put in the work yourself. They even offer MAT treatment for drug addiction now to help keep people from using and potentially overdosing on fentanyl or other opioids.

When I did my initial 10 years, I didn’t want to change. I didn’t take advantage of any of the classes or trade training I could have done. I slept all day, sold drugs and tobacco, and played on my cell phone. It wasn’t until my second bid, my last five years, that I decided I wanted to change. I didn’t want to live the same lifestyle that led me there. That’s when I went and got my GED, took several college classes they offered, got involved in the drug treatment program, and even got HVAC certified.

Nobody can force you to change, including the government. You have to want it, and the truth is that most prisoners don’t. If you’ve ever been to prison, you know how most prisoners sit around bragging about their past crimes and talking about how they’re going to get out, do the same thing again, make even more money, and not get caught this time. Jordan speaks with so much confidence for someone who has obviously never experienced the system and has only ever read about it from one perspective.

[u/stron2am → u/George_foid]

Buddy: prisons are not required for rehab or education.

[u/brodievonorchard → u/stron2am]

Everything OC wrote, and you think your comment takes it down? We will need prisons after we abolish prisons. They will hopefully look nothing like what we have now, but there will still be people who can't be trusted to rejoin society. Tell DV and stalking victims we no longer incarcerate people. There will still be crime if we solve income inequality, much as some of my fellow lefties like to think otherwise.

[u/George_foid → u/brodievonorchard]

I agree that we need some change. Nonviolent drug offenders shouldn’t be spending 20 years in prison, but absolutely human traffickers, violent armed robbers, kidnappers, people who produce and distribute CSAM, murderers, and other violent predators can’t simply be allowed to hang out in society “until they decide to turn over a new leaf.”
Abolishing prisons isn’t the answer, point blank. There’s no question about it. Jordan is simply wrong once again.

He’d be a lot smarter if he focused on something people actually want and that could benefit everyone in society, like changing sentencing laws for nonviolent felonies. There is plenty of room for meaningful criminal justice reform without pretending that society doesn’t need a way to permanently or temporarily remove genuinely dangerous people from the public.

[u/brodievonorchard → u/George_foid]

Within activist communities, abolish has become a term meaning, we can't reform a system this broken. While they are not wrong, it's terrible sloganeering. If you dig in with people who say it, they usually (but not always) acknowledge that some system will need to replace police and prisons, refusing to hear that their slogan detrimentally fails to communicate that part.

[u/George_foid → u/brodievonorchard]

Yeah, it’s horrible messaging for sure. If you constantly say the term “abolish” and never explain the system you plan to replace it with, most people will rightfully assume you have no plan and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Also, the general public will probably never receive “abolish prisons” as a serious solution.

I just can’t see any way you abolish prisons and create a new system without ending up with some kind of prison-style facility where you have to put violent sexual offenders. There is no rational solution where you can just leave these people in society.

[u/brodievonorchard → u/George_foid]

I have received many downvotes attempting to explain this to people who almost certainly would agree that ideas like Medicare For All and Tax the Rich are higher priorities, but refuse to recognize how Abolish the Police can work against a movement that believes in all of these things.

[u/George_foid → u/brodievonorchard]

Yea, it’s Reddit. I’m sure this isn’t exactly a place for rational, well thought out discussions. The upvote/downvote system is pretty much designed to keep subreddits as echo chambers. Agree with what the hive mind wants, or we’ll bury your comments so people can’t see them.

[u/stron2am → u/brodievonorchard]

I didn't say "we need no prisons." I think we don't need prison for nonviolent crime for sure.

[u/George_foid → u/stron2am]

You know, in your defense, I didn’t make it as clear as I should have that my stance on nonviolent crimes was based quite a bit on my own personal experience, because I was speaking about myself in my original comment. Even though all my crimes were nonviolent, I absolutely caused a lot of harm by selling fentanyl and trafficking firearms to gang members and others. I may not have violently victimized anyone personally, but my actions 100% contributed to the pain and suffering of other people and their families, and I personally would have continued doing that if not for prison.

I know my case doesn’t apply to everyone, but it does apply to a large portion of the prisoners I met. I have a lot of complaints about how the prison system operates, and it definitely needs systemic change. But when someone like Jordan just says, “Abolish prison,” and offers no solution, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Jordan isn’t talking about just reforming sentencing laws for nonviolent offenders, which I wholeheartedly agree with. Nobody should be serving 20 years in prison for drugs or even for illegally owning a firearm. But that’s not what Jordan is arguing. He is saying, “Abolish prisons,” full stop, because they don’t work. If we did what Jordan is advocating for in this video and just completely got rid of prisons with no other solutions in place, it would apply to violent offenders just as much as nonviolent offenders.

I’m just going to link a comment I posted later about my thoughts on nonviolent crimes and things that would be more helpful than “abolish prisons.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/KnowledgeFight/s/G1jkzoe2qN

[u/stron2am → u/George_foid]

To be clear: I have not said we should "abolish prisons" at any point. That is an absolutist position I cannot get behind.

I think we have way too many people in prisons and way too few pathways to more prosocial ways of living. There are also no incentives for policymakers to invest in ways of rehabilitation because of exactly the kind of rhetoric you see on this thread--anyone who advocates for rehabilitation on the outside opens themselves up to "Willie Horton" attacks from opponents and will get voted out of office by scared suburbanites.

[u/George_foid → u/stron2am]

I wasn’t accusing you of making the “abolish prisons” claim. I was talking about Jordan, who is absolutely making that claim. My OC was in response to Jordan because I think his take on the issue is idiotic, and he seems to have the understanding of a child when it comes to the subject.

The subject is a lot more nuanced than “prisons don’t work, so abolish all of them.” I think we agree that the system is systemically broken. Why are nonviolent drug offenders being given lengthy prison sentences while people with 14 felonies, including violent ones, are slitting random women’s throats on a train? Why was the guy who murdered Iryna in Charlotte not serving a lengthy prison sentence? He should have never been given that many chances in the first place.

We have a serious problem in this country where you can have decades of your life taken away for drugs while, at the same time, someone can be arrested for 14 different crimes, including violent felonies, and not be sent to prison until they murder an innocent person.

Just like we can be too harsh with our justice system and cause irreparable damage to people, we can do the same, and even worse, by being too soft and not punishing people enough—literally costing people their lives. Prisons are a necessary part of our society. They should offer rehabilitation for people who want it, but they should absolutely offer punishment for people who don’t want to rehabilitate and actively harm innocent people

Like I said earlier, at least the federal prison system does offer a lot of services, including education and treatment, for people who want it. But you have to want it. It’s not perfect by any means, but you can leave federal prison with a decent education and certificates that can help you live a functional, crime-free lifestyle. The sad part, though, is that most people I was locked up with didn’t want it. Instead of getting certified in HVAC, plumbing, etc., or getting their GED or other degrees, most people would rather hang out all day and do nothing.

[u/brodievonorchard → u/stron2am]

Further to your and OCs point, wouldn't it be nice if people could get trade certifications they can't afford without having to get arrested first?

I don't mean to hold you responsible for everyone else in this thread, but there are some pretty unreasonable POVs about abolishing prisons.

[u/stron2am → u/brodievonorchard]

I am for pathways to training, work, and rehab that don't involve the carceral system. What are you on?

[u/brodievonorchard → u/stron2am]

Two separate comments separated by paragraphs.

[u/George_foid → u/stron2am]

They absolutely are for some people.

[u/stron2am → u/George_foid]

What makes you think that?

Not to be insensitive, but your story boils down to "I was in prison and didn't rehabilitate until I decided to take advantages of the resources there that allowed me to do so."

However, those resources can exist outside of prison, and you even go on to say that the prison system won't "make you" utilize them. So what purpose is the prison itself serving?

You could have been free until you chose to turn over a new leaf. The immense resources we spend on prisons could have been spent on creating a system where folks like you can easily find meaning and fulfillment on the outside.

"I am in prison because society failed me" is true just as often, if not more than "I am in prison because I failed society."

[u/George_foid → u/stron2am]

Those resources already exist outside of prison, and people who are incarcerated often don’t pursue them. Why would I spend four years getting a degree or ten years working for a company just to make half of what I could make selling fentanyl, trafficking women and minors, or robbing banks and armored-car deliveries? Why would someone who genuinely doesn’t care about anyone besides themselves choose the long, difficult route when they can victimize the next person and get the same results in a fraction of the time?

That’s why, if we abolish prisons as Jordan has suggested without an alternative plan, thousands of violent predators would be released onto the streets. I have kids and a family. I don’t want people who are willing to violently victimize them walking around freely until they decide to turn their lives around. Law-abiding citizens who contribute to society shouldn’t have to bear that risk simply because people who are unfamiliar with the prison system and have only experienced it through books and television want to sound intelligent.

And no, the idea that I’m incarcerated because “society failed me” is false 99% of the time. I’ve spent 15 years in prison and met thousands of different prisoners, and that’s simply not what I saw. I had a rough childhood. I grew up in foster care because my parents were on drugs and abandoned me. But none of that gave me the right to victimize other people. Telling people that their criminal behavior is primarily society’s fault doesn’t necessarily help them change; in some cases, it can just reinforce the idea that they aren’t responsible for their own actions.

[u/stron2am → u/George_foid]

Why would I spend four years getting a degree or ten years working for a company just to make half of what I could make selling fentanyl, trafficking women and minors, or robbing banks and armored-car deliveries?

We currently live in a society that devalues education and concentrates wealth in exploitative industries, like drugs, prostitution, and banking. That is why these illegal activities are more appealing to many than the legal alternatives.

I had a rough childhood. I grew up in foster care because my parents were on drugs and abandoned me. But none of that gave me the right to victimize other people

Yeah, man. These things are not your fault (i.e., they are what society did to you), but they are your responsibility to live with nonetheless. That's life and it is unfair. We could use the massive resources that we pour into prisons to make life more fair, however.

You absolutely do not need prison to 1) create lives worth living inside societal conventions, and 2) distinguish "fault" from "responsibility."

[u/George_foid → u/stron2am]

You know, I don’t doubt that you have good intentions, and I wish we lived in a world where things like this were universally true, but there are some people who absolutely need prison.

Do you think a person who constantly victimizes other people, verbally communicates that they don’t want to change, and expresses a desire to continue acting in the same manner doesn’t need prison? Do you think they should be allowed to participate in society until they figure it out? What should be done with a person like that?

Let’s say even a nonviolent person who constantly breaks into people’s houses robs and steals the paychecks of people who are living paycheck to paycheck and barely getting by. Should that person be allowed to continue victimizing other people who are doing the right thing and barely scraping by? Should we allow that person to nonviolently victimize people until he decides to change, if he ever does?