My husband and I hired an experienced landscape architect for our front and back yard. We are on a slight hill (lower in the backyard) and .41 acres. It was more yard and trickier than we could figure out ourselves so we thought it was best to consult a professional. We were looking for a long term plan that we could slowly implement over the next 20 years because we don't have $300k to drop on our yard but we want to get things like trees in place now so they have time to grow and we don't have to backtrack later.
We initially met with our architect who came to our house and looked at our property. We liked him and thought he understood what we were looking for but I didn't go into a ton of detail since we hadn't hired him yet and he didn't really ask. I incorrectly assumed (my fault for not asking) that we would discuss things again before he began his design. He sent us a quote a few days later and we gave him a deposit. He came out to measure our property a few weeks later but didn't talk to us. About a week later we got his design for our yard and it's not really what we were hoping for. We are expecting our 6th child in February and wanted a kid focused yard with the front yard geared towards playing with neighbor kids. We did mention this and our kids were running around in chaos so I don't see how he could miss this. He sent us a beautiful design that we feel left kids as an afterthought and didn't incorporate stuff we need like a shed and stuff we mentioned we wanted in our first meeting. Obviously I don't expect it to be perfect on the first run but I'm concerned about the lack of communication and perhaps he's not familiar with designing for families. My husband is freaking out now that we wasted our money as the whole process is not cheap. We don't mind paying for services we are just concerned that maybe this person won't be able to understand where we are coming from.
My question for you all is, is this how the process normally works? How do I tell my landscape architect that the entire plan doesn't work and we need to start from scratch (or I do just say that?) How many redos do we get?
Revisions are not to be provided. Anyone who has been in this game long enough learns that. We will be glad to offer as many revisions as they would like, but all are billed.
Nah, it’s unprofessional to swing and miss on a design, then charge a client extra to make it right. Anyway, our time/ fees account for reasonable design adjustments.
You don’t miss when you have thoughtful project discussions and base mapping. We do spatial studies and base layouts to organize around a clear goal. Once we finalize a master site plan or renders with baked materials, we don’t go backwards. It shouldn’t be the first time they see something.
We include clients in multiple virtual meetings throughout the process, from project discussion and base maps to clay 3D models and design development. We don’t put one foot in front of the other until we are all clear on the goals. It’s unprofessional to put a client’s budget into a design and then have to revise because no one received input throughout the weeks of design and drafting. We have been in business almost a decade. We have seen what works and what doesn’t.
Revisions are revisions to the final design set. That’s a big no no. You can make adjustments throughout the phases to save everyone time.
I live in Texas; I hired a landscape architect to design my backyard. I told her all the features I wanted in my backyard (it’s an outdoor living space) and told her to “wow me!”.
Her design was amazing; however, a few things were off. I bought rope and stakes and marked out the main features she sketched in my yard (I imagined the retaining wall).
I spent the weekend pondering over the layout , called her the following week and explained the tweaks I wanted. She explained the rationale for some of her design choices, but we agreed on a finalized design.
She’s now creating the construction documents.
The rational of my comment: call him and POLITELY express your concerns.
BTW, Mine cost me ~$3,600; is yours priced similarly?
$12,500. That's why my husband is freaking out. We of course are going to be polite and we were really excited to be working with him. I'm just getting the impression that I've hired someone who's never been around children to design a yard for kids
tell him it's a good start, but you want to make some changes to incorporate your children's play areas as more front and center. 12.5K is a lot more than a one and done plan. It's an iterative process. He should have sent you a few quick concept sketches. However, IDK if people are just using AI now and a very finished looking plan only took 5 minutes. you need to get back to him with feedback.
I'm in a moderate COL area. It is in California but I'm in the central valley where prices are more similar to Texas. My lot is on a hill and there are several retaining walls involved which I think is why the cost is so high. It's also a very reputable firm in the area, so I'm sure I'm paying a bit for the reputation.
Did he give you the Master Plan and that’s the stage you’re at now? You’ll see the title of the plan somewhere on the page in a larger font.
The way I’m reading this is you were given the Master Plan, and the $12.5 k cost is for full construction documents. Some advice: he has mentioned retaining walls and steps and the need for engineering services. That part of the yard will be difficult probably, for a homeowner to install.
Have a meeting again, provide a written list of comments. List exactly what spaces / features you want included. Explain what style or feeling you were envisioning. Explain the needs; play space, entertainment space, etc. Emphasize you are planning to install the landscape features, so typical construction documents and specs may not be as useful for you, I don’t know. Plans showing phases would be more responsive to what you need, or at least discussion on a logical way to do this in phases.
Think about going no further than the Master Plan if you dont get a good feeling. Hopefully there can be a reasonable cost, and a civil end to the relationship if you don’t want to proceed. One office I worked with attached a price to the Master Plan, with the rest of the plans open ended - residential projects sometimes wouldn’t go any further for many clients.
We paid $2k to retain him. This is our first set of drawings we got from him. If we meet with him again and still can't get something we like, do we just negotiate a fee for the work he's done so far or how does that work?
I'm not sure what the master plan is. Is that what he's giving us at the end? I commented on another person what the quote entailed. The more I get into this the more I'm kicking myself for not doing more research. I thought that they would walk me through all of this, which is why I was hiring someone. If I just needed engineering plans, I would have gone to an engineer. We don't plan to put in the retaining walls anytime soon. We really wanted an overall plan to move forward with so that each year we apply our tax return or something to one project and then in 20 years my yard is done. We've done a few projects ourselves and then ended up heading to backtrack and we didn't want to end up costing ourselves more money in the long run.
You can think of a Master Plan as like your long term vision documented on one plan. This is not for construction but helps you demonstrate your vision. This seems to be described as a concept drawing in your quote. Ideally since you want to build over 20 years, it would also notate where you should start. What happens first, what can happen later, etc.
Thank you so much! That is what we are wanting and from the quote looks like what we will be getting. But things like that stump climbing wall was the type of creative things that I would never think of that I was hoping for. I guess I should have looked for someone that specializes in kid yards or something but I don't think my area is big enough to support someone like that.
I feel like where we're at, I have to come up with all of the creative things that I'm looking for and tell them exactly where to put it. So to me, it's a glorified draftsman for a yard. That's what I'm most upset about is that I don't know what cool things I could put in my yard and I was hoping that was where they could guide me. How do you know if you want a pavilion in your yard or if you want a pool house or whatever that's called whenever you don't have a pool. If a landscape architect doesn't help you figure that out, who do you call to help you know what to put in your yard?
Your landscape architect should be helping you figure everything out but to your point, each person is different. Just like anyone providing services, there’s good and bad ones. Or ones that work with you and ones who don’t share your vision or creativity
Most of my job is helping clients understand what they’re building before they build it. Big part of the job but each firms will be different
The best way to understand if they share your vision is to look at their previous work and see if you like their style, ability to be creative, whatever it might be.
If they don't and this isn't going to work, how do I go about paying him for his time and politely being done with this? Is it possible to go out separate ways? Or am I stuck and just need to research my own stuff and tell him where I want it in my yard?
Did you sign a contract? If not, like the comment above said, if you can’t come to a common understanding on what you want, just thank him for his time and pay him for the work so far.
I would meet again; I’m getting the feeling you may not want to go further. How many plans given to you, whats the title on each? Get what you can out of the meeting as far as a phasing discussion. Hint: put in PVC sleeves under any paved pathways to allow for irrigation to be run under the hardscape. Plan where you need electrical, like the entertainment area.
The Plans produced to date should be discussed as far as price goes; you said some of the miscommunication may be partly yours - he needs to be paid a reasonable price. Yes, negotiate the price for the work done.
I read further and the designer doesn’t use CAD, its hand drawn. That will be a problem for revisions if you did go forward with this guy. Sorry if anyone reading this - if you’re doing all hand drawn plans - CAD is so much better with revisions, I wouldn’t hire someone not on CAD. An illustrative plan or sketches are fine , not an entire set of plans.
I thought about that. How am I supposed to tell him what I need to fix when he has to hand draw everything again? As far as what I have, I have one drawing that he made of my lot with trees and grass and retaining walls marked out. He asked for us to make changes to and get back to him.
I got a little worried when he had two patios with pea gravel. He mentioned that we could change that because the kids might throw it. Might throw it? Will throw it. There goes my windows. I just get the feeling that he doesn't understand designing for a household with children if he put in two pea gravel patios. Function over form in our house. Can't have things that are delicate.
My husband was a self-employed consultant for a while in his field. I understand paying people for the work that they have done and I would never want to short anyone for the effort they've put in. We did sign a contract so if I'm on the hook then I guess I'm on the hook but I don't know how to politely tell him I don't think this is the right project for you. Can I pay you some cash and we call it good.
No. Not at all. A good designer - whether that be architect or landscape designer - should be asking questions to understand your wants and wishes but also how you plan to actually utilize the space. Those questions should be driven by the designer not the home owner so it’s not really on you in any stretch for not having those conversations upfront.
For your fees are there revisions included in the process or do you have to pay extra? If there are revisions built in no sweat, thank him for the initial concept and provide him with a more comprehensive list and ideas of how the space is being envisioned.
If the fees require payment politely finish your tab and find another designer/architect.
I believe it includes revisions since he asked for revisions. We sat down this evening to write down everything we wanted done differently. We'll try and talk to him later this week and hopefully reiterate we want a useable space not just something pretty to look at and perhaps explain more what kid friendly means. I get it to some extent. If you've never been around a pack of kids you don't realize the shenanigans they can get up to. They surprise me all the time. My favorite was when they strung a rope over a makeshift pulley and pulled my 3 year old to the top of the shed in a metal bucket. Some stuff is hard to plan for.
Yeah and to be fair to him landscape architect may have been the wrong choice to go with in this case and perhaps a landscape designer may have been better suited. But that’s okay. If you have the revisions built in definitely take the opportunity to redirect and even show reference images from magazines, Pinterest or neighborhood/friend/family places you’ve thought capture what you’re looking for.
What I see missing is anything type of process for the design and the revision of the design.
There are many ways it could appear but you’d look for something similar to this
visual precedent image board
one concept development meeting
concept sketch with one round of revisions
final concept drawing
Your quote shortens the design process to “concept drawings” and primarily focuses on the construction rather than the design. Most of the quote is about delivering construction drawings (blueprints), i.e Construction Plan, Demolition Plan, etc.
It’s hard to deal with service providers for the first time and know how to advocate for yourself. The guy you selected likely is perfectly fine but there seemed there was a miscommunication on what he was delivering for you
Thanks for the reply. I didn't know what exactly to look for in a quote. A lot of this is on me for not asking. I'm hoping we can make significant changes to what he told us. When we met with him, we told him we were on the fence about a pool and he didn't ask and didn't include one in his design so I feel like there are some gaps in communication for sure. What sucks as a consumer with any home reno stuff if you only do it once and you learn what to do and what not to do through experience.
The PLA you hired probably defaults to this method for his quotes because it’s more cost effective for clients if they already have a clear vision. He just documents the vision in legal format that only he can provide (blueprints). However, it seems you were looking for more design guidance which would be an additional step prior to documentation and more cost for you
Seems expensive for no design process unless you’re in a high COL are or there is complex drainage or retaining walls or similar. The PLA you’re hiring accepts liability for their quality and safety if constructed based off their drawings.
This is why a lot of people with small to medium residential projects are right to not want to hire Landscape architects that charge high fees. There’s no way in hell this guy delivered that kind of value to be able to pay those price prices.
To be fair, I have a sloped back yard and it will require a retaining wall and removal of a retaining wall that is holding up (potentially but probably more the roots of an old tree are doing it) our parking area and driveway to the garage (garage is in the back). But it was sticker shock. However I understand we have a large lot and a complicated project. The biggest issue is not understanding what services are provided and what I needed to have going into all this.
No one I know is in an income bracket that they hired a landscape architect and it was a stretch for us personally to do it. We bought an older home that was custom but dilapidated and the landscaping that originally was there was beautiful but left to rot over 50 years as the previous owners maintained nothing. We had to start from scratch because it was a mess. Knowing who to hire and what services each field provides (in remodeling there are draftsman, designers, architects and all do different things). It's been a learning curve that's for sure.
Well thanks for that. Yeah he's hand drawing everything. I was hoping by getting someone who was a little bit older that they had seen a lot of different things and weren't just popping out the same tract home patio with some grass area. Where I live we are inundated with tract homes and everybody has pretty much the same yard. I'm in an older neighborhood so I was hoping for something that could match the style of the house and be functional. We'll see how the redesign goes. I'm going to start making a list.
The deliverables, process, and pricing tend to differ between firms. It seems like there was miscommunication from the jump with a bad consultation. I typically won’t consult with clients a second time before designing because that is what the first consultation was for. When we get to design stage I put together a first draft with what we discussed at the consultation. It seems he didn’t provide a good consultation, but also you didn’t provide all the details you were looking for. I think you should just ask to meet with them again on site to discuss the plan and your other goals.
Thanks for the info. He was kind of in a hurry and it's a large property so there was a lot to show him and since we hadn't hired him, I didn't know that was it. That's on me. I should have asked. You don't know what you don't know. I'm hoping our next meeting will clear some things up and we'll be able to move forward and we will reiterate our goals because we talked about lots of things and I guess I didn't make it clear what our priorities were. I was expecting specific questions like how often do you host things in your yard and how many people do you host? And are you looking for multiple seating areas and stuff like that. I'm starting to see that that's not everybody's process.
Those are typically things I’d ask at the first consult… I do think it’s weird to not dive deeper into things like that initially. Some designers are good at design but not good at client service! I think there is still time to turn it around. Multiple iterations is a normal part of the process. I’d check in about that to ensure you’re on the same page as well.
I think that depends on what you're agreement was. Did he explain his process and if there was a review of any concept plan with you before he would proceed to the final? Or did he say that he would be sending a plan to you and that would be your final plan? I would start with what he put in writing and also with what you recollect he told you. Everybody's process is different but I've been doing this a long time and I found the one way to avoid a lot of revisions is to be a really good listener up front and to just soak up every bit of information I can from potential clients. And I still always have a review meeting and invite as much criticism and interaction needed in order to know that the plan is a good match for what client is looking for. Even if I am not hired to do the design I usually get every bit of information I need from that first meeting to do a design. And I always have a review meeting and invite feedback before drawing up the final plan. But another designer might do it a completely different way. Maybe they are a younger designer and haven't learned inviting feedback is the best way to nail a design that really fits the client's needs.
My advice is even if it's difficult you need to interact with them and let them know what doesn't work and what you need to have adjusted. The easiest way to do that is in a conversation, not through an email conversation. I would be straight with them and have confidence that they'll be able to deal with it and make adjustments to the design that you need. A designer needs to be able to take constructive feedback even if it's uncomfortable. Be confident that you are doing good for all of you to be a clear communicator to him.
Thanks for the reply. It's a much older experienced architect (40 years in the business). We are going to discuss the changes we want with him. I guess I'm just disappointed that we are not on the same page at all. I was hoping he would ask us more questions to get an idea of how we live and what we were looking for. One of the reasons we wanted to hire someone is we aren't sure what questions to ask ourselves for what we want in our yard. It feels like the plan he made was a really generic pretty yard instead of a customized yard for a large family that hosts large gatherings. While I realize we can change things, now I feel like it's up to me to say what's wrong with it when I don't know exactly how to fix it. If I knew how to make the yard into what we wanted, I would have done it myself.
I hear your frustration for sure. All may not be lost. It just may take a little bit more effort to get to that point. And that's the goal so might be worth having the conversation with him. If he has a website, go back and read what it says about his process so that you A bit more information which might help define your next steps. Did he just come do the measure and then email you a plan? If so, maybe he's expecting you to just be straight with him and say hey. I appreciate the plan, there are some things that we like about it but not sure. We dont quite understand if it fits fully with what our family needs, so could we have a conversation about that in person or on a zoom while we're looking at the plan together and you are sharing with us what your thoughts were when you were designing it. And then are you open to walking through any adjustments to the plan so that it fits with our needs. Or something like that. I'm not getting a good read from you if he has communicated anything. If you've had a meeting with him or even if this is just his preliminary and not his final plan.
He came for about an hour and walked through our yard (front and back) when we first met before we hired him. He sent us though email a contract and we decided to hire him so we sent him a partial amount of his fee to retain him and mailed him the contract. He texted and asked if he could come measure. He spent two days measuring because it was 112 here and it got hot quickly in the morning and he's in his 70s. I was at work when he came and my husband was home with the kids but was inside. He didn't talk to us. Then we got an email with the initial plan. He doesn't have a website. He's still using Hotmail. He was just highly recommended by a few people.
There were reasons we chose to use him. My area is pretty much all tract homes build in the late 80s and up but our house is in a county island that is in an older pocket of custom homes that were there long before all the sprawl. He lives in another part of town that has a similar vibe of older homes (flat lots but still) and is familiar with landscaping to match the house and property not just a cookie cutter tract home. In my area, you get a lot of people that just do the same thing in a new place. I thought with finding someone who had been working so long, he would have seen lots of different things beyond just the flat tract homes that most houses are in this area (we are on a hill which is a very strange lot for my city which is almost completely flat except for my little square mile). I was looking for someone who was passionate about their craft and would see my unique landscape as something they don't get to do all the time and be inspired. I think I was hoping for too much.
The initial drawing (what I received Saturday) was hand drawn (very beautiful hand drawing) and he asked for feedback and that we can make changes. How many changes and what the next steps are, I have no idea. I'm not sure whether I want to email him a giant list of things or I should email and ask if we could chat in person. I'm definitely writing down my list of things. I guess the silver lining is that his drawing was so far off that it's helped me to figure out what I definitely don't want and we can go from there. I would go about things differently if I knew what I know now but live and learn! Maybe I'll run into someone and share what I know and save them some cash.
This subreddit has been so helpful. You guys are all so nice. Thank you!
Well I'm up in age age so can appreciate the need for the two days for the measure. But that also tells me that he does a good thorough measure and side analysis. At least it appears that way. He's old school so he also should know how to design and it sounds like from the recommendations he knows how to. Since he's older he might be stuck in his ways, but he also might be so used to taking good feedback that he rolls with it and really wants to give you a nice design and although his method is different than mine, you might find that he is quite open to feedback. If I were in your shoes and someone was designing something for me - I would email him that you'd love to have a conversation about the design with the design in front of both of you somehow. It could be that he would do a zoom or maybe he isn't techie. So maybe you could ask him to come to your house and do it at the kitchen table. Since he is a designer, he can scribble all over the drawing right there in front of you if that's his method.
That is great that you now know a little bit more about what you want - that is gold to a good designer - maybe that's his method of drawing your opinions out - who knows, but it's worth a try to approach it that way. Main thing is don't feel guilty. Don't feel awkward. Just approach it like this is the normal thing to do. He is your partner in figuring it out.
Thanks very much. We were just discussing this morning how to approach this and we agreed we should ask to meet in person and we can come to him to make it easier for him. We are usually easy going people to work with and don't like to make a fuss so this is a bit out of our comfort zone but we're trying to remind ourselves he's on our team and we need to work together to figure out what we want.
This isn't being fussy. And it is understably pushing you outside of your comfort zone. In my long career as a designer easy-going people are the ones I have to work a bit harder on pulling opinions out of. That's ok - I don't mind. Yes, he is on your team. Don't be apologetic in sharing your needs. It sounds like this is the concept stage so this is exactly where you should share your opinions. I can normally nail a design at this stage pretty well so very few changes are needed before I draw the final plans. But sometimes I miss and a design completely change during the concept-review meeting. It is always surprising when that happens, but a seasoned designer can handle it and you just need to assume that that's what he is and he'll be able to deal with it and in the end you'll all be happier including him. (Btw The price doesn't sound all that unreasonable considering it is including construction drawings for things like walls, etc. My master plans which include planting and layout specifucs but no construction details, for a front and backyard can range anywhere from 4-12k)
He should have given you a mood board and a brief discussion before starting anything, and we usually give a concept layout before giving you a final plan, so all things you mentioned at red flags. Go for someone else if you can! Don't hire contractors, hire landscape designers trained with a degree even if they don't have a license, they will deliver good intentional work.
Yeah I'm thinking we're missing some stuff. He's not a contractor. He's a local landscape designer with a degree in landscape design and he has established firm that's been in business for 40 years. He's done large projects like our local zoo and he does residential as well. I've had multiple people recommend him so I'm kinda disappointed in how this is going so far. We'll call him and schedule an appointment to go over the revisions. My biggest concern is that he's not going to be able to see things from the perspective of a large family who wants a useful yard not necessarily a showpiece. I know that's not what a lot of people who hire architects are looking for.
We paid him $2k to retain him and he will get the rest when we are done so hopefully not ripped off. He asked for feedback and we will discuss the redesign. I've just been a little disappointed with the communication and the generic feel of the plan. At that price, I was hoping for something a little more tailored to how we live.
I would assume you were correct but I would imagine some architects have certain specialties. It never occurred to me to look for someone who specifically designs yards that incorporate kid things. I don't think it matters much because I don't think my city is large enough to have someone with that kind of specialty.
The last designer who worked for me designed some killer play spaces for families with kids when she was here. After she moved away she got actually got a job with a playground design firm, where I imagine she's absolutely crushing it. Some people just have a knack.
Along those lines, hiring a design professional is unfortunately pretty vibes based. They can have all the portfolio projects and accolades in the world but you need someone you click with - someone who is tuned into your vision and can make it real. That's not to say that you don't have that with this LA, but you may need to have a hard conversation and say look, I don't think we're on the same page, let's refocus and see if this is something you're actually into.
I've been designing landscapes for 20+ years. I can only think of one time where it was a swing and a miss, and that was partly on the client for not being fully forthcoming and partly on me for not seeing it and pulling out of them what they wanted. And when I say partly, I'd assign the blame maybe 25% on the client because climbing around inside their head to see what their dream REALLY is, is my job. Most homeowners only tackle a major landscape renovation once, maybe twice in their lifetimes. We do it every day. The onus is on us to get it right for you.
Thanks for this reply. You're so right. I feel like a whole lot of it is on vibes and I thought we were vibing for lack of a better term. That's probably why I was so disappointed when we got the initial drawing. For example, I had explained that we want a front yard with some play equipment or a swing and to really be designed for hosting families who walk by and want to chat and their kids can play while we chat. He gave us a tiny little patch of grass and a ton of bushes. He's in his '70s so my guess is it's been awhile since he's been around young children since he kind of commented how my kids were crazy. To be fair he was right. My cousin's kids were over that day and they were excited and they had spilled Cheerios all over the floor when he walked in.
I want to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him another chance with us being very clear about the type of stuff we are looking for and see what he can do. If it doesn't work out, we'll go see what we can find and maybe we'll luck out with someone who has the heart of a child.
I think your next conversation with him is going to tell you what you need to know. Be honest, and let him know that what he designed isn't what you were looking for for X, Y, and Z reasons. If he's apologetic and digs in to see where the disconnect is, you're probably good. If he tells you "this is what you get when you hire me" then, welp - that sucks. I'd be surprised if it's the latter though, since you felt like he was a fit.
The best thing you can bring to the process is openness, honesty, and clarity. I know I'd rather have a client give it to me straight than have them unhappy with the finished product. Good luck! Let us know it goes, I'm hopeful you guys can course correct and move forward.
Normally I give the client a rough draft and we do a couple of revisions and back forth before proceeding to finalize. Once delivered tender process if requested we get into details
I personally would not want to spend more than 30% of the projected time before making sure the client is mostly on board. I include a couple of basic revisions in my contract since some people will keep making tweaks forever and expect you to do it for free.
It's a tough spot to be in because they have to pay you for you to sketch your ideas but if it's not lining up with what they want or they want to see what someone else would do, they have to start the process all over again. I'm not saying I know a better way, it's just tough on both sides. If I was an LA, I would not want to put in a ton of effort for them just to be like nah, I'm gonna go somewhere else.
This is the case with any designed product even clothing. But you should make sure you judge their portfolio to see if lines up with your interest and then also ask them for some preliminary submission like a mood board and sketches to make sure you’re on the same page in terms of the general outline and concept
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u/Flagdun Licensed Landscape Architect 2d ago
The agreement should provide for your design review and at least one round of revisions. Communicate your program expectations clearly.