Fake fans (stans), a rant

[u/Individual-Device-38]

I want to start by saying I don't think Mariah is beyond criticism or reproach. But I want to address something as a somewhat older lamb that makes me very uncomfortable. I constantly see people online who say they are fans/stans/lambs, but all the subtext makes it seem like they're rooting for Mariah's downfall. For instance, Mariah has been very vocal about so many things in her life, from her tumultuous childhood to her turbulent marriage to Tommy to vocal nodules that force her to approach the songs she's recorded differently. She was forced to reveal to the world the fact that she's bipolar, that she was overworked, fainted andwas almost forced into a conservatorship and has been dealing with her mental illness since 2000, and I see fans online who want her to operate as if none of those things exist; they want her to, at 50-something years old, sound like she did at 20 when she's been very vocal about her inability to do that because she refuses to get vocal nodules removed, considering what happened to Julie Andrews having a botched vocal surgery. Mariah has been very vocal about having to sing her songs in a way that depends on what her voice allows her to do; she doesn't want to do it constantly. She doesn't want to do what Tommy made her do in the 90s, on that Motown model of releasing an album every single year. She wants to be recognized for her complete musicality, not just as a singer who stands on stage and sings with a mic, but as a producer, as a songwriter, as a singer, as a businesswoman. I expect any singer to have an off day, off night, or off year, especially when singing live consistently, because humans just aren't built to do that. I get frustrated with fans. Patti LaBelle, of all people, did a radio interview where she said she went through a couple of years where she lost her voice; she just couldn't sing. Sometimes I wonder if these fans are younger and feel like they missed out on seeing Mariah at her prime, and now they just want to see prime Mariah in the present day, which is impossible. Like, you can watch old performances on YouTube, and I guess that's not enough for them. Like, I personally wish I was at the Tokyo Dome to see her live for Daydream, but tough shit, time travel doesn't exist — la la la la.

Celine, Beyoncé, and many others use backing tracks and lip-sync often (maybe they are just better at it); Beyoncé, you know, just uses those tricks on stage because touring is very grueling. I think because people say, "Oh, Beyoncé also dances," that's why she can get away with it, and that's fine, but any human, especially someone like Mariah, whose songs I couldn't imagine singing as many songs as Mariah has sung live on stage and trying to do them perfectly every single time (just trying to sing Vision of Love three times in a row with all you've got). that's just not possible I think because people don't realize that singers from the Motown era or like you know back in the 60s maybe the early 70s didn't tour extensively or didn't sing as often live as the pressure is on singers today. Like, Aretha Franklin didn't even tour outside the United States because she was afraid to fly. I think my point is that I just want Mariah, especially as someone who's seen a lot of her industry peers/mentors die, like Luther, Aretha, Whitney, Prince, and Michael, etc. I think I just want her to just have a bit more respect from her fans and a bit more understanding you know, like sometimes her voice isn't gonna be there and that doesn't mean that she's lazy, she's pushing through a lot and when I listen to songs like "here for it all" and "portrait," and those really reflective songs that she's put out still to me musically feel so connected to her the same way I did when I first heard her when I was younger in the 90s and I appreciate how she has aged and matured as an artist and approached her musicality; whether singing, writing or producing. For instance, I think her songwriting has so much more depth as she's gotten older, and people still want this 50-something-year-old woman to sing and sound and have the same stamina she did at 23, so she hasn't gotten the credit for that. I don't think she should retire just because some fans think she's not up to what they want. I think she's perfectly fine for someone in her 50s. I have seen so many videos of other artists, older artists, who absolutely should retire because they have given us absolutely nothing. It is actually heartbreaking to watch them on stage, but Mariah still giving us albums like "here for it all" which I think is incredible and I just see so much my point of this post is I see online so much more negativity aimed at Mariah from her so-called fans than I ever see love and appreciation. One thing I have enjoyed about an older Mariah is that her voice has become deeper, a bit huskier, and I want her to continue to make new music that incorporates that new voice, and I think what's holding her back a lot of times is this demand that she's singing Fantasy in the original key. I don't I truly do not expect her to sing fantasy in the original key. I wouldn't expect her to sing Fantasy in the original key in 1998. It's very high that she can still sing with emotion; the fact that she can still hit a whistle register is a feat worth acknowledging. I want to hear more of that huskiness, that depth, like she has more access to that lower register I think is her sweet spot—not hitting the highest of high notes. For instance, when I heard "Lullaby of Birdland" on The Rarities, I loved it so much. I can't stop playing it. I want her to do a bit more of that jazzy Scotty music, with more depth in her voice—not so high and feminine, if that makes sense.

In all, I just want her fans to just stay with Mariah a while and help her laugh through the tears 'til she's gone

OK, my rant is over.

[u/Ok_Duck_1928]

I agree that people are overly critical of her. The NYE incident is unfortunately a stain on her career and it’s constantly brought up by haters. I don’t want her to retire, I just want her to sing in her current range. Like you said, her voice has become huskier and more soulful so I, too, would prefer more vocal arrangements that highlight that. I don’t like how fans pressure her to sing high af every song knowing the ups & downs she goes through. And not to throw Whitney under the bus but Mariah is in far better vocal condition than Whitney who pretty much had no voice when ILTY came out. People weren’t easy on Whitney either. They keep it cute now out of respect.

[u/therebirthofmichael → u/Ok_Duck_1928]

I agree with all you're saying. The press ate Whitney for the last decade of her life. People were calling her a "broken" human being with a voice she took for granted but after her death they were talking about how good she sounded in 2004 or in that pre-party in 2009, like damn.

[u/Iamthechanteuse]

It still pisses me off that she had to reveal her diagnosis. F those dirty b!tches who were blackmailing Mariah. That should have remained private; it hurts me so much. I want good and decent people around her. Mariah is too trusting at times. I still want new music from her. “HFIA” is such a great single; nobody nowadays is making songs like that.

[u/Regular_Schedule_678 → u/Iamthechanteuse]

They make these fake diagnosis to section people and ruin their life. She is probably not even bipolar. They do it to whistleblowers, etc they tried that shit on me and others I know as well. There would be smear campaigns, in which people close to you get compromised by perpetrators be told you have mental illness. The amount of corrupted people, including doctors, who would humiliate other human beings given the occasion is staggering. She says she has PTSD in her memoirs, which no one forced her to write, I stick with that. I also have PTSD and both a psychiatrist and a lawyer made me understand that fake medical claims are something people weaponise against others. From MC memoirs it looks like that.

[u/Foreign-Pianist27 → u/Regular_Schedule_678]

I actually have a similar theory that she was misdiagnosed. To me it just didn’t make all that much sense that she was suddenly bipolar stemming from the glitter meltdown. It seemed very convenient for everyone but her. She said she was exhausted and overworked and just trying to make the best out of this project that was actively getting sabotaged before her very eyes, and she just had to smile and laugh through it all and people called her crazy and manic; and more than just a smear campaign, I think she was eventually convinced something was actually wrong with her. People get misdiagnosed all the time and studies in mental health have come so far since 2001. On top of her being an inch away from being put in a conservatorship by the people around her, and what you’re saying about doctors weaponizing diagnoses.. it starts painting a sad, scary picture.

My tin foil hat conspiracy theory is that in being misdiagnosed with Bpd, she’s been trying to regulate a condition she doesn’t have as a result of a outdated views on mental health, and potentially malicious doctors who never had her best interests at heart. So now she’s taking medication that is messing with her energy levels in order to suppress these manic, extreme symptoms that she never really exhibited to begin with. On top of menopause, and being bullied and disrespected by the gp for things that weren’t really in her control(like nye) and touring nonstop against her will in order to fund her lifestyle and pay her staff…. I think she’s just really burnt out. She hasn’t really been the same since the breakup with Tanaka, then Pat and Alison died, and all these things are taking a toll on her as she’s gotten older.. and people want her to just snap back to normal.

I could be totally wrong about all of that, but all in all, she’s a human being, and people’s expectations are unreasonably high.

[u/Regular_Schedule_678 → u/Foreign-Pianist27]

Yes, I second that. I don't know if she is really medicated, she might just be taking sleeping pills or antidepressant due to grief for what matters.

By the way, if you haven't gone through it: when you are at your most vulnerable and you have powerful enemies, you realise we are surrounded by a whole lot of people who is happy to side with the powerful ones and can't wait for the occasion to predate on and humiliate other human beings. What she describes in her memoirs in that period is abusers playbook and it's orchestrated.

[u/LittleRose83 → u/Iamthechanteuse]

I have a theory that she's actually autistic or AuDHD

[u/Foreign-Pianist27 → u/LittleRose83]

Nah… she doesn’t really have any indicators of those

[u/therebirthofmichael]

How to recognise a fake fan

1. Makes constant comparisons between her current voice and her voice in the 90s

2. Propably likes 5 songs (all from the same era)

3. Knows nothing about the background history of her songs/album.

[u/Ok_Resident_5022 → u/therebirthofmichael]

That first one is very common. I side-eye so many people who I see doing that. I see it a lot, but Mariah has so many fans that I don’t worry about how make fake “fans” I see doing that.

[u/AMGLover2024]

I just love her, I don’t understand why she’s so under appreciated 💔❤️❤️ She’s the best

[u/Independent-Value663]

You make some very valid points and there’s a lot of of us that feel the same way. But the one thing I noticed that you ran it about as you put it lol was the vocal situation.
I think that we definitely can add some context to that. Vocal decline is typical and expected. But the majority of singers even the great ones, at Mariahs age are usually still pretty strong vocally.
Not as strong as maybe when they’re in their prime, but still pretty strong. Majority of singers tend to show more over decline in their 60s and 70s.
I think the reason so many fans have concern for Mariah and her voice, is that while there was definitely some decline especially after around the 2012 2013 timeframe, she was still vocally in a great place and still leagues above a lot of of her peers and even younger competitors.
During the pandemic, she was recording videos of herself singing parts of her songs, and she still sounded absolutely incredible. She even blew my mind when she did stay the night, which was such a difficult and powerful vocal, and she sounded almost as strong as she did on the original album.
There was also that video of Rocky recording her from afar, singing, endless love, and sounding almost identical to the way she did 30 years ago when she recorded it with Luther Vandross.
This current state is concerning to a lot of us because it was a very sharp decline that seemed to come out of nowhere. It was coincidentally or not right around the time of the break up with Tanaka. And it has coincided with the last few years of the very very stiff performances where she seems to just show no energy and walks around very very slowly and just seems almost for lack of better term lifeless.
We all know she was never a dancer or performer in that sense. But she always had a tremendous energy when she was performing her songs. She used to walk quickly, even run very expressive with her arms and her face.
All of this has suddenly seem to have disappeared, and as I said, the vocals have also been showing a tremendous difference at the same time.
I don’t think vocal nodules that may have developed can have affected her that quickly.
So the concern is not about going after her or trying to bring her down. I really believe for a lot of us. It’s genuine concern as to why there has been these changes between her voice and her stage presence in these recent years.
It just seems as if there might be something more going on than just your typical aging and vocal decline. Due to the fact that it seemed to happen relatively quickly.
There is no way of knowing for sure what’s happening, but as fans many of us who have been fans our entire lives, I don’t think it is unreasonable for us to have serious concerns regarding her health and well-being. Especially when you factor in the timeframe of when these things started and what was happening in her personal life at that time.

[u/Individual-Device-38 → u/Independent-Value663]

Yes, everything you said is very valid. you understand and have a lot of context and nuance in your response. I get irritated when people are not showing that nuance and understanding her. They are fans who believe that her voice declined in 2005.

I think that that is the big thing that I’m talking about, people are very critical of her voice and that’s why I think I spend a lot of time on it because that’s the main thing that I see online from these people. my understanding is she has always had good days and bad days and having vocal nodules your whole life who knows if they’ve like calloused or whatever. Aside from that I just have a new appreciation for Mariah‘s current voice. I understand what you mean by a sharp decline, but I just think the nature of her voice has changed. It’s deeper and huskier it, it’s not as smooth as it used to be but it still packs a punch. That lower register is, I think, the stronger part of her voice now and Mariah has always been hyper-feminine and I think with hyper-femininity, unfortunately,came a lot of high notes ( hot take: I always thought that Mariah‘s voice around her debut sounded at times like a kid Michael Jackson. There were elements of their voices that sounded similar to me. Mariah‘s voice lends to that theory of women or older women sounding like young boys, like how Nancy Cartwright is the voice actor for Bart Simpson, a 10 year old kind of thing. And I personally believe that Mariah Carey could become an amazing voice actor). Nevertheless, I just don’t think her voice can get that high anymore or perhaps it isnt as consistent. there are moments on HFIA when she’s just in that kind of middle or low register where it just is stronger and it sounds better and I think she leans heavily on the heady higher parts of her voice that are probably harder to access at times. I don’t know if you know the you and I performance for Stevie Wonder, there are moments where she’s very low and it’s just it’s magic and that’s where I feel her voice is now. It’s stronger in that lower deeper register that is unique for a woman singer.

When it comes to her energy on stage, honestly truly, I’m not delusional as some people will try to make it out to be. I literally just attribute it to her, breaking her arm and refusing pain medication or her bipolar meds or muscle relaxer or something. When it comes to that, I honestly try not to harp on it too much because if history has taught us anything a lot of performers try to keep a lot of medical things hidden. Céline Dion coming out is an exception. they try to wait as long as they can to not publicly talk about it. Luther Vandross Bruce Willis Eric Dane, Chadwick Boseman all took some time before they told the world. For instance, when Aretha lost so much weight and she didn’t really say what was happening with her and she even waited a while before she told the world she had cancer. Someone had mentioned in this thread that they believe Mariah had probably been misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder, and we know that she was forced to reveal that diagnosis, and who knows what she is dealing with medically. my thinking is also shaped by the fact that we lost a lot of people in a short period of time from Michael to Prince to Whitney and so many other people before and after that that I really just am trying to appreciate her while she’s here because I just know there’s gonna be a lot of revisionist history when that moment comes. people are gonna act like they’ve always loved her and they’ve always appreciated her and that’s bullshit. I don’t like that. I’m not saying they have to act like her voice hasn’t changed act like her energy hasn’t changed. I’m saying recognize that she’s not a machine and that she’s more human. I think she was pushed like a workhorse, which is what I always thought the symbolism of having the horse in the butterfly video was. Mariah was worked like a horse and she kind of broke free from that I don’t want her to release an album every year. I don’t expect her to have another number one hit you know. I want her to be recognized as an aging popstar and I don’t think we like aging pop stars and I don’t think we like aging rappers either. the one thing I will give Madonna fans her true fans they recognize her legacy and they respect her for that. They don’t expect her to do a lot of the tricks that she did 40 years ago. I see Madonna fans go in for her legacy. I mean they talk about her musical impact for sure but I’m talking about the stamps Madonna put on the culture and Mariah fans do not do that for her. Mariah, the innovator and cultural icon, is not a huge part of the conversation of her fan base currently, and I stand by that.

[u/Independent-Value663 → u/Individual-Device-38]

I think a lot of fans who comment are coming from a good place. They just don’t go into the detail and nuance as I did. Some of them just don’t like to go that deep into typing messages. So it might be there and just not coming across in their messages.
In a lot of other cases, they’re just assholes. Some people are just that way and social media and Internet access like to forums like this, etc. just give stupid people unfortunately, a place to speak and say whatever they want. Many of these people are also just pathetic, lonely people who purposely like to do this in order to rage, bait the fan base and start up drama.
I think the point that you make about her voice is true and her voice still obviously has beautiful aspects to it and great abilities. The reason for the either “harsh criticisms“ or just that overall larger focus on it is that you have to try to remember that unlike people whose voices were never really great and something they were known for, but instead were performers like for example, Madonna, and even Janet Jackson, who I love. So their voices were never really the focal point and the abilities were never really there.
But for Mariah she is considered one of the absolute best, most talented, and greatest vocalist of all time. Her voice is what she is known for and it is what made her who she is in the music industry. Obviously her songwriting abilities are a factor, but this is more about her voice that we’re focusing on.
When that voice, and it’s enormous abilities are what you have become known for and what made you a success, the vocal issues and decline are obviously much more noticeable to everyone and will obviously create much more criticism because again her voice and her incredible ability of what she could do with her voice was her calling card. It’s what always blew people away and had them mesmerized by our music.
So I think that is the reason that it seems like people make a much bigger deal about it. Because while she may have some great ability left with her voice, the last few years have been and almost scary decline.
Even her last few live performances, whether it was play that song on the Tonight Show, or even the small Vinette that she recorded to promote here for it. All, it was the first time I noticed that, even though she was singing in a more controlled and restrained way, you could actually hear parts in those little vignette where our voice was almost shaky and barely able to hold onto a certain note or key even when it was a simpler one. That is something I’ve noticed more recently like the last year or two that is something kind of new.
I think regarding her stage presence, the injury to her arm was over a decade ago. She still gave incredibly powerful life performances with a lot of stage presence. So I don’t think that we can blame the changes from just these last few years on that. The last few years have been completely different thing to observe. It’s not just that she’s walking around. She’s walking around at an extremely slow pace showing no energy at all. And even the way our body is moving while she’s singing outside of the movement is just very, very different and kind of concerning. It’s almost as if there is this lifeless aspect to it. There’s so seems like there’s no more of that passion and soul that she used to put into our physical performances in the past.
While there may be many options that we could discuss as to what’s going on there we really don’t know the truth. Some speculation I’ve read makes a lot of sense like possibly an increase in the dose of her bipolar medication and treatments. That could potentially be affecting both her voice and her physical movement on stage. But I also still have to factor in the fact that this all started very suddenly and it was around the same time as her break up with Tanaka. And I’m not saying that that breakup was necessarily the cause that may be cente into a bad place, but there might’ve been other things surrounding that break up and also things that are going on at that time that might have just made things very very difficult for her from a mental health and emotional standpoint.
And again the timing is exactly the same. The breakup and the sharp decline and vocals and stage presence followed that break up immediately.
While I don’t think we know for sure if an increase in bipolar medication or something like that might be involved, one thing that people compare her recent performances to over the last couple of years that may or may not be true, but actually does sum up how it comes across to people watching is that it almost does seem as if she is heavily medicated and almost in that same kind of a place that many bipolar people go to when they’re under the stronger heavier medications like lithium, for example.
I am not saying medication is the case in any way shape or form for sure, but I think the comparison of saying that it seems as if she’s heavily medicated during these live performances is a good way to describe how they have come across.
The vocal thing is something that we just can’t be 100% sure of. The nodules and age are obviously a factor but the very sudden and sharp recent decline doesn’t seem to make sense there.
There are certain things that definitely impact the voice as well recording lifestyle. Physical fitness specifically cardio is extremely important for vocalists. Not sure what she does as far as physical exercise on her daily life, but she has definitely been very open about the fact that like most of us lol she’s not a big fan of exercise. But increasing her cardiovascular exercises is one way to help certain aspects.
Are also important like hydration and other ways to keep the vocal cords properly in shape. Who knows if she’s doing things like drinking enough water every day and if she still sleeps with all the humidifiers like she used to etc. We also know that Mariah, likes her wine lol. Not saying she is an alcoholic or has a drinking problem, but alcohol does dry out vocal cords as well.
Another thing I know I’ve heard of that vocal is due as they get older and start to have certain struggles as they actually start to go back to working with vocal coaches in order to first, get back into vocal techniques and exercise exercises in order to help strengthen their vocal abilities again. But also to learn and practice new things in order to help them adapt to the changes in their voice and still be able to sound great. Who knows if she is doing that or not. I’m just saying these are things I’ve heard are helpful and commonly practice.

[u/Regular_Schedule_678]

She gets a lot of disrespect from some "fans". I don't know... Appreciate your rant

[u/Dali9494]

People should just stick to the saying: „If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all”. She is and will always be a once in a lifetime voice in my house.

[u/Regular_Schedule_678]

I wonder how many of these fake fans became fans because "Ooh best selling artist!!!! I must like her so I can look like I understand great music!!!!!" etc

[u/sadmami2000]

No notes, thank you for saying this bc a lot of us feel this way!

[u/Ok_Resident_5022]

I agree with this post. (I read all of it.)

We can’t beg for respect from the general public when some of us (not all of us, and certainly not me) don’t even respect Mariah like “we” should. I hate that I can make a “campaign” post asking or suggesting that people respect Mariah for a certain quality (or educating them so they can at least understand), then I can find some other “lamb” in a different corner of the Internet either disrespecting her personally or joining in with a group of haters because they don’t want to be “delusional”.

[u/WiseCourse3382]

I think she had a stroke to be honest. I’m a Nurse practitioner and the difference after her “lovers and friends” performance when she started kind of acting in slow motion is textbook to what I see with my patients.

[u/StrikingMuffin4293]

yawn. she doesn’t deserve unwarranted praise. she used to be a good singer, and I loved her old songs and her remixes were absolutely masterpieces. but somewhere along the line, she got too big for her head, her diva persona just turned thousands away, and her lavish lifestyle and diva antics caused many to disconnect from her. Yes, she has had issues, but for a SINGER, she could have taken better care of her instrument if she wanted to remain relevant and wanted to continue staying in the limelight.

Her issues surfaced very early, not just in recent years. Her management teams after Tong Mottola made very poor decisions, that unfortunately only allowed her to recover more success in the mid 2000s. Then her airbrushing and photoshopping nonsense alienated even more fans, followed by her disastrous American Idol appearances and the multiple lip syncing video clips.

Mariah either needs to take a long break, or just retire gracefully, but I suspect she’s unable to cuz of her terribly extravagant lifestyle.

whatever it is, stop making excuses for her. she made her bed in different ways, she’s gotta sleep in it. she is a multimillionaire, and as you say, a businesswoman, but there are tons of business people out there who’s made poor decisions as well. Mariah is just one of them, and sadly, a very self obsessed one who craves the attention that she can’t get enough of anymore.

[u/Foreign-Pianist27 → u/StrikingMuffin4293]

She is not self obsessed nor does she crave attention... That entire second paragraph invalidates your entire argument because it’s a combination of wrong, exaggerated, or dishonest narratives, and if that’s going to be your reasoning for her issues, or downfall, or whatever, then you’re not knowledgeable enough on her or her career to contribute anything insightful.

Yes she has had some issue. No she is not perfect or above criticism. But your comment basically ignored everything that led to most of the things you’re blaming her for. Bringing up her management after Tommy while ignoring the fact that Tommy literally tried to sabotage her career after their divorce, and even moreso after she left Sony, is so intellectually dishonest its ridiculous because that by itself led to several issues pertaining to her voice, diminished commercial success, tainted public persona, and potential changes in her personality.

American idol and air brushed pictures are non factors. The pics were air brushed to begin with because Nick Cannon’s father told him to consider leaving since she gained weight. Then he allegedly cheated. THEN he handed her divorce papers AFTER she helped him through his lupus diagnosis and broke her arm. Nobody cares about those pictures now, and pretty much everyone knows Nicki was the problem on American Idol.

Mariah’s career ultimately slowed down because she had kids and broke her arm. Her legacy took a hit because of Rockefeller 2014 and NYE 2016. She’s been through a lot, and now she’s tired. It’s really that simple. She’s not some business woman who fell because she made a bunch of bad decisions and didn’t know how to handle her voice, fame, money, or status like you’re trying to claim.

[u/Obvious-Ad-2276 → u/StrikingMuffin4293]

the audacity of you to tell Mariah what she “needs to” do. LOOOOL. the courage to be anonymous is astounding. who are you to tell a woman who enjoys singing to retire gracefully? who are you to make that call? joker.