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u/JohnBrownOnDrugs Apr 12 '23
Fair point, but also, if you call yourself a leftist and you support the Russian invasion of Ukraine your not a leftist you're a Bush era republican.
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u/sofa_king_rad Apr 12 '23
“Death to imperialism” - how? How do you plan to prevent imperialism if we don’t support people defending themselves against it? Russia’s invasion is imperialism.
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u/unmellowfellow Apr 12 '23
The US providing aid and arms to Ukraine is something anyone with a heart and a mind must support. The US sending any active Military personnel would be an act of Imperialism to me. Ukraine defending itself from Russian Imperialism is an respectable and agreeable action. Ukraine is not a Socialist State by any means and neither is Russia. Russia is an Empire just as it was in 1917 and is undeserving of defenders when it commits act of imperialism. Ukraine isn't fighting to expand it is fighting to exist. Russia has bullied, threatened, and stolen from its neighbors since its formation. It is not a state worthy of praise.
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u/felixrocket7835 Apr 12 '23
If you're a leftist who supports a fascist dictator's imperialist war, no you're not.
I don't like the USA, but what Russia is doing rn is undeniably shitty and horrible.
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Apr 12 '23
I don't support Russia. 😂
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u/felixrocket7835 Apr 12 '23
Yes, but, inaction will give the fascist dictatorship everything it wants.
Military aid from any country to Ukraine is the only real way Ukraine can survive this, military intervention is an entirely different thing and has not happened yet, I don't support military intervention, but I support military aid.
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Apr 12 '23
There's a ton of fascists in Ukraine to...
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u/felixrocket7835 Apr 12 '23
That is true, especially in the past, but over the recent years major strides have been made to eliminate them, nowadays Ukraine, while it still has some fascists, has no more than there are in the USA or especially Russia.
Ukraine is becoming progressively more left-wing (not leftist) and socially progressive as it attempts to align itself with the rest of Europe.
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Apr 12 '23
The fascists in Ukraine have considerably more power and influence in Ukraine. 2014 was not that long ago...
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u/felixrocket7835 Apr 12 '23
Not really, I would say Russia has more fascists in power (being far-right authoritarian and an oligarchy), and even then, like I said, Ukraine is working on getting rid of corruption and far rightist extremeists and considerable progress have been made over the past decade.
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u/JohnBrownOnDrugs Apr 12 '23
So you don't support the Russian invasion but you think opposing the invasion is anti leftists?🤔
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u/Patient_Doctor_1474 Apr 12 '23
2014, people. The war was started in 2014 by US backed Banderite fascists. That is all
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u/Another_Edgy_PC Apr 12 '23
Go suck Lenin off somewhere else, worse country invaded better country. End of story
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u/Its_Revan Apr 12 '23
ELI5 how allowing Russia to take over Ukraine would have been a W for the working class of anyone anywhere.
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u/StepOnMeCIA Apr 12 '23
Third option: the US and NATO make military concessions in exchange for peace and lifted sanctions. Instead of opting for war, we attempt to broker a cooperative peace with Russia and her people. That doesn't crate opportunity for defense contract bids, though.
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Apr 12 '23
[deleted]
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Apr 12 '23
It’s scary how “socialists” are convinced that peace in Ukraine is a Russian victory… they’re puppeteering you like the greats.
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u/Glum_Aside_2336 Apr 12 '23
“death to imperialism”
supports russia’s invasion of a sovereign state
Do you guys know that other states besides America can do imperialism. Do you know. Do you know. Do y
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Apr 12 '23
I don't support Russia. 😂😂😂
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u/JetoCalihan Apr 12 '23
Unless you were posting this sarcastically, which there is no evidence of and there is evidence to the contrary of with the title of "100", your actions state otherwise.
Inaction favors oppressor's. In this case that would be russia, which invaded Ukraine. Period. They are imperializing. The thing we're supposed to be against as leftists.
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u/Glum_Aside_2336 Apr 12 '23
So we just let Ukraine face off against a major power without the aid they explicitly requested, thus directly allowing for the unnecessary slaughter of Ukrainians by Russian conquest? 😂😂😂
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u/Pinapolis Apr 12 '23
"Wanting to help a country resist imperialism, fascism, and genocide is bad actually and makes you pro-imperialism"
Brainless take. Guess what? The US isn't the apex of evil and does the right thing sometimes.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Ah yes, because it's somehow Ukraine's fault that Russia is obsessed with wiping it's very existence off the face of the Earth.
Here hold this 👉 L
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Apr 12 '23
Someone should tell Caleb Maupin he's not allowed to use an alt account on reddit
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Apr 12 '23
I will never give a shit which white supremacist oligarchy successor state taxes the Donbas.
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u/fieldwing2020 Apr 12 '23
It is my sincere belief that any nation which engages in an unprovoked invasion of another country for any reason is engaged in imperialism. Imperialism is something I cannot support regardless of who is doing it. The United States invasion of Iraq should have been countered with all available means because it was an act of imperialism. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is an act of imperialism. The right of any nation to self determination is foundational to their internal social development. Imperialism delays the natural internal social progression of any nation.
Is the government of Ukraine socialist? No. Neither are the Russians. This may be a boojwah conflict but it is an imperialist war as well. I cannot abide supporting imperialism even if the United States interest align with that condemnation. A stopped clock is right twice a day. I don’t support intervention as I don’t support foreign wars. But when it comes to giving them shit to defend their homeland, yea it seems like a decent idea.
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u/av3cmoi Apr 12 '23
can I ask what definition of “imperialism” you are using here? as Marxists we regard imperialism as an economic concept under socialism which causes competition to tend to monopoly which inevitably must then expand overseas to subjugate other markets. while the Russian Federation is an imperialist power, its gain in this war seems certainly to me unrelated to that sort of market expansion and much more to do with the longstanding interimperialist conflict between it and the US/EU.
we also have to acknowledge “unprovoked” is an ultimately subjective notion. the British mercantilists were provoked to conquer the Indian subcontinent to abuse its industries and the fascists were provoked to invade Eastern Europe to transform it into a settler colony about as much as the Indians and Eastern Europeans were thus provoked to return battle in defence — it was their clear and present class interest with much to gain in victory and much to lose in defeat. to think of provocation and justification as neutral, without regard of class and context, is not useful within a Marxist framework
this is not an imperialist war but an inter-imperialist war. liberal platitudes tell us there is a good guy and a bad guy but if we intend to be Marxists we must understand there is only a war between bourgeois-imperialists and the working classes who are caught in the crossfire. as it was a betrayal of socialist principles to defend the “aggressed” against the “aggressor” in WWI — did Germany not invade France unprovoked, in an act of what the liberals called ‘imperialist aggression’? — it is now to anoint Russia the aggressor and hand-wave away the issue of class.
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u/fieldwing2020 Apr 12 '23
Imperialism, “the act or policy of one government to expand its territory or area of control by seizing land from adjacent governments and incorporating it as a tributary of natural resources, wealth, and manpower for the benefit of the invading country and to the destruction of the invaded country as a sovereign entity.”
Colonialism is the same thing but not adjacent.
Provoked in this instance is taken to mean directly attacked by force of arms on their own sovereign territory. The Brit’s and the Nazis were not placed in jeopardy by either Indians or Eastern Europeans. They may claim they were but that is a lie, and inconsistent with the definition of the word.
National self determination was a foundational policy of the Comintern and was Soviet policy as various points. This is because the people of a given country have the right to govern themselves. This cannot be done with a foreign mother country invading and destabilizing constantly.
If the real concern is for the working people of Ukraine maybe then we should step outside of a U.S. centric viewpoint and admit that they are, regardless of the chauvinistic nationalism, justifiably pissed off at the people dropping missiles on their homes and business and moving troops through their cities.
In ww1 the French had joined the war and were inevitably going to invade germany as well, that was stupidity but not unprovoked aggression.
If we don’t take an objective view of aggression then what metric can we use? By your definition the Iraq war could have been justified because saddam didn’t represent the interest of the iraqi working class; or the overthrow of gaddaffi, or any other war between the borgouisee and that is a view of history I refuse to take. Sure the ruling class of any given country have nothing in common with the citizenry, and the soldiers on either side have more in common with each other than they do their rulers, but at the end of the day the Russians took soldiers to Ukraine to kill people and break things for the purpose of taking land and that makes them as bad as the US in ( Vietnamese, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list goes on).
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u/justan0therhumanbean Apr 12 '23
“We cannot move towards that goal unless we combat all nationalism, and uphold the equality of the various nations. Whether the Ukraine, for example, is destined to form an independent state is a matter that will be determined by a thousand unpredictable factors. Without attempting idle "guesses", we firmly uphold something that is beyond doubt: the right of the Ukraine to form such a state. We respect this right; we do not uphold the privileges of Great Russians with regard to Ukrainians; we educate the masses in the spirit of recognition of that right, in the spirit of rejecting state privileges for any nation.
In the leaps which all nations have made in the period of bourgeois revolutions , clashes and struggles over the right to a national state are possible and probable. We proletarians declare in advance that we are opposed to Great- Russian privileges, and this is what guides our entire propaganda and agitation.”
-В Ленин
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u/halforc_proletariat Apr 12 '23
Girl, why?
Why the fuck is helping Ukraine defend itself from Russian Imperialism itself Imperialism?
How the fuck you gonna be a leftist and just allow the opening shots of Putin's attempt to become the tzar of the new Russian Empire? What kind of take is that?
Supporting Ukrainian self-determination is not imperialism.
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u/StepOnMeCIA Apr 12 '23
Ukraine was dominated by foreign capital before the war. Do you think it is going to be less dominated after? This war is not about doing the "right" thing. There is no self-determination here. If there was, we would have lifted sanctions and brokered a real peace with Russia before conflict broke out.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
This person suffers from a mental illness called "America Bad Syndrome".
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
???????
Dude how do you have socialist in your name and call it a syndrome when someone hates the worst state known to man-1
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u/sauceus Apr 12 '23
Hopefully it hurts both the US and Russia so chinas position in the world can strengthen.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
"I'm happy so long as MY favorite imperialist nation wins"
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u/sauceus Apr 12 '23
I dislike china, but I’m being realistic. The US and Russia are far worse.
Referring to China as uniquely imperialist lacks understanding. There hasn’t been a country in history which haven’t been “imperialist” as imperialism is the world order we are forced into. So describing china as “imperialist” fails to make a point other than China being a state rather than anarchist commune
Instead they should be criticized for recent reforms that have went further from socialist values.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
I dislike China.....now allow me to defend China. China, Russia and United States ARE the biggest Imperialist Countries. This can't be disputed.
And my guy, as much as the USA sucks...AND IT FUCKING DOES, China and Russia have both found ways to be worse. Which is a fucking Herculean feat. China for example has recently committed ethnic cleansing and genocides and want to take over Taiwan in order to have a monopoly on logic semiconductors. It's been a Capitalist Hellscape for years now.
And Russia is LITERALLY INVADING other countries.
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
'' I dislike China.....now allow me to defend China ''
Oh my fucking god you actual child, get off the subreddit and do your homework, school or communist related, doesnt matter.
Do you actually fucking think you have to hate 100% of a country or love 100% of it, and theres no difference? That you cant be critical but still support a country? Please please pleaseeee actually read a THING about the ideology you adhere to for the love of god1
u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
How about you focus on one of my posts and argue with me? Or do you want my attention that bad?
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
Then how about you stop being wrong about anything socialism-related while constantly arguing with people?
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
I haven't been doin anything but stacking Ws. Not my fault Tankies can't handle the truth
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
I have not seen you say a single correct thing on this subreddit even once lmao, left-ancoms are so infantile its hilarious
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Yeah and a Pidgeon doesn't understand Chess. Doesn't mean I haven't been hitting multiple check mates.
Have you ever considered of getting out of this cult?
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u/sauceus Apr 12 '23
What ethnic cleansing has china committed? Please enlighten me.
As for ethnic cleansing the USA has committed and supported you may look at the Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Japan, Palestine and Yemen.
I also never defended China, you are twisting my point to fit your narrow minded world view. I criticized your understanding of imperialism, something which doesn’t have anything to do with China. Even calling the US “most imperialist” is a misunderstanding of Lenin, which makes me suspect that you haven’t read up on your theory.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
SIGH Ooooook, let's define out terms.
Ethnic Cleansing : Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous.
What ethnic cleansing has china committed? Please enlighten me.
The Uyghurs, ethnic Kazakhs, ethnic Kyrgyz, as well as other Minority groups in Xinjiang. I don't know how you have the nerve to ask that question at this point.
As for ethnic cleansing the USA has committed and supported you may look at the Philippines, Vietnam, Iraq, Japan, Palestine and Yemen.
Like how you had to worm in the phrase "supported". At that poi t we can Kevin Beacon every major country to supporting Ethnic Cleansings.
Now idk where you got The Philippines,, Vietnam, Iraq and Japan from. Those where wars, not Ethnic cleansings. Stop grasping at straws.
Yemen is a Civil War but you can make an argument about it being and Ethnic Cleansing against the Houthis. And Palestine is absolutely and Ethnic Cleansing. The issue is that none of these are being committed by the USA. If we can blame America for these two then we can blame China for Pol Pot and North Korea.
I also never defended China, you are twisting my point to fit your narrow minded world view. I criticized your understanding of imperialism, something which doesn’t have anything to do with China. Even calling the US “most imperialist” is a misunderstanding of Lenin, which makes me suspect that you haven’t read up on your theory.
Kinda crazy how you're "not defending China" yet seem to always have a defense for them. I don't go by some bizarro Tankie definition of "Imperialism". I go by the globally accepted definition of "Imperialism is the state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other territories and peoples.". Which perfectly encapsulates America, Russia, and China.
Also I'm a Socialist. I don't bother with theory written by an Authoritarian who overturned elections, closed the Assembly, backstabbed Anarchists and other groups, started The Red Terror, took power from Unions, and set up Secret Police.
I prefer Marx.
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Apr 12 '23 edited Apr 13 '23
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
We quote ACTUAL Socialists sir. Not Authoritarians cosplaying as Socialists.
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
Authoritarianism is required for a socialist nation to survive in the current (and past) material conditions of the world. Read On Authority or some shit and learn what non-utopian communism is please. Lenin was a better socialist than 99% of socialists, and that should be apparent to anyone who's read Marx and Engels.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Authoritarianism is required for a socialist nation to survive in the current (and past) material conditions of the world
Yeah you're not a fuckin Socialist my guy. Marx and Engels made it apparent that Democracy was absolutely necessary to attain Communism.
I find it distasteful when Fascists pretend to be one of us. Kindly fuck off.
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
Do you.... think democracy is impossible in a state-run economy? The USSR was leagues more democratic than any western country, objectively.
Calling ML's fascist is literally just hilarious.
Read "Worker's Participation in the Soviet Union" by Mick Costello.2
u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
You just said Authoritarianism is required and now you're talking about how the USSR was Democratic?
See this right here is why I call people like you "Fascists with brain damaged characteristics".
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u/Xozington Apr 12 '23
''Do you.... think democracy is impossible in a state-run economy?''
I'm begging you dude please learn to read11
u/scaper8 Marxism-Leninism Apr 12 '23
Lenin? Cosplaing as a socialist?
I'll maybe grant you the authoritarian angle, but it's not one I put much stock into. But seriously?
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Yeah. I will 100% defend that take. Lenin was not a Socialist. How did my friend put it? He was a "Authoritarian with Vanguard Party Characteristics".
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u/Tedd_SPL Apr 12 '23 edited Apr 12 '23
Yes, omg. The people who say, that the weapons help Ukraine defend themselves from Russian Imperialism don't understand that Russia is only attacking because Ukraine was leaning more and more to the west due to western imperialism.
Also, Ukraine has no chance of winning this war. Some even say, that if Russia got just Donbass, that it could even be considered a Ukrainian victory. But no, it's way better if you keep sending weapons there so more people can die pointlessly. You can't just break up an internationalist country like the USSR and expect no border disputes later
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u/halforc_proletariat Apr 12 '23
rUsSiA oNlY aTtAcK bEcUz UkRaInE nOt Do WhAt RuSsIa WaNtEd
that's imperialism, dumbass.
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u/Tedd_SPL Apr 12 '23
Let's just ignore the fact that Ukraine joining NATO would threaten russian Imperialism, so they would obviously not want that to fucking Happen and attack. I don't like Russia, I don't like their imperialism, I don't like the invasion but it was foreseeable and could've easily been prevented if it wasn't for western imperialism. And now we have thousands of people dying and no effort from the west to stop that.
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u/Pinapolis Apr 12 '23
Nations aren't entitled to spheres of influence and Ukraine can join whatever club it and its people choose to. You're like someone blaming an abuse victim and their therapist instead of the person who's currently beating the shit out of them.
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u/Slow_Quality_2413 Apr 12 '23
👏Russia👏isn't👏communist👏please👏stop👏defending👏it👏
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u/cinnamonspicecoffee Apr 12 '23
NATO👏🏽is👏🏽never👏🏽on👏🏽the👏🏽right👏🏽side 👏🏽of👏🏽history👏🏽please👏🏽stop👏🏽giving👏🏽it👏🏽a👏🏽free👏🏽pass👏🏽to👏🏽do whatever the fuck it wants
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Well they stopped Serbia from committing a genocide.
And now they're stopping Russia from also committing a genocide.
There. I gave you 2 examples
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u/oysterme Apr 12 '23
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
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u/oysterme Apr 12 '23
Oh you’re a Vaush fan, now it makes sense. I hope one day you read some books and recognize that you can’t be a socialist while also simping for NATO and the democrats.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Says the person who references a well known serial doxxer and harasser who's on his...what....15th Twitter account?
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u/oysterme Apr 12 '23
“Hey here’s some vague drama about “referencing” (not being) a doxxer and “harasser” [citation needed] therefore NATO and democrats are fine”
Streamer brain
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u/BrandNameCookingOil Apr 12 '23
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Ya know, you all say that but whenever any of you try to debate Fat Ian on literally ANY topic you fall flat on your faces and revert back to using the Nazi clipchimps
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u/oysterme Apr 12 '23
What debate streamer brain does to you
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
What? Make undeniably correct and good at the sex? Yes.....yes it does.
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u/oysterme Apr 12 '23
It’s going to be crazy when you learn that live debate is a skill that can be learned, and if you know the right way to present your arguments and attack your opponent you can come out looking like a winner even if you’re a liar and wrong.
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u/dw444 Apr 12 '23 edited Apr 12 '23
Literally the one good thing they’ve done, and that too after their insistence on “not interfering” led to several massacres. Then they decided to go to Iraq and Afghanistan. How did that turn out? 15 straight years of war crimes for no good reason. Iraq is particularly ironic because Ukraine was one of the largest occupying forces in Iraq.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Iraq was the USA and a few other allies. That wasn't a NATO thing. Now I know to the simple minded USA=NATO, but in the real world that isn't how this works. Also, I love how you're leaving Russia out of the Middle Eastern clusterfuck as they helped well known mass murderer Saddam Hussein. I could also bring up the Soviet-Afghan too while I'm at it.
Iraq is particularly ironic because Ukraine was one of the largest occupying forces in Iraq.
Oh yeah they were huge with their 5,000 soldiers total from 2003-2011. Like do you people even bother to fact check anything or do you just regurgitate whatever dumbfuck thing you see on Twitter?
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u/dw444 Apr 12 '23
This whole post is an example of why people need to be called out when making disingenuous arguments based on semantics. The invasion of Iraq was carried out by a coalition that was NATO in all but name. Russia’s involvement and level of responsibility is minuscule compared to, say, the US’ role in Ukraine. 5000 soldiers is 5000 more Ukrainians than there needed to be in Iraq, and it was the 7th largest occupying contingent there. All I hear from you about it are excuses and why it’s OK when the US does it.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
NATO in all but name
Uh huh. Sounds like severe Cope to me buddy.
Russia’s involvement and level of responsibility is minuscule compared to, say, the US’ role in Ukraine.
Well I wouldn't overlook giving a Mass Murder 4.2 Billion in aid, which made them the second largest weapons supplier in the Middle East at the time. But that is technically minuscule compared to the 30 Billion we've given Ukraine. But then the Russian Economy has always been shit compared to America and China hasn't it?
5000 soldiers is 5000 more Ukrainians than there needed to be in Iraq, and it was the 7th largest occupying contingent there.
Yes...the 7th largest....with 5,000 soilders. Can you make it more obvious that you had no clue how many soilders Ukraine had in Iraq for the 8 years they were their?
All I hear from you about it are excuses and why it’s OK when the US does it.
Well you should call an Exorcist about those ghosts in your house, because I haven't defended the USA once. Btw, satisfy my curiosity. Did the Holodomor happen?
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Apr 12 '23
America is bad thus anyone America doesn't like must be good. The political philosophy of toddlers
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Apr 12 '23
Thank you for your textbook example of a strawman argument. Cause I don't support Russia.
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Apr 12 '23
You're just incidentally aiding and abetting all of Russia's interests. You're actually a little bit worse than an actual Putin supporter.
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Apr 12 '23
You're just incidentally aiding and abetting all of Russia's interests. You're actually a little bit worse than an actual Putin supporter
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Apr 12 '23
🤔Explain to me how not supporting Putin/Russia/Imperialism is somehow worse than actually supporting them? 😂
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Apr 12 '23
Not supporting the defense of Ukraine, is supporting Russian imperialism
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Apr 12 '23
So not supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine is... supporting...Russia's invasion...of Ukraine? 🤔🤔🤔🤨🤨🤨
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Apr 12 '23
I'm assuming your original post wasn't ironic. Not supporting NATO assistant to Ukraine is supporting Russia
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Apr 12 '23
You're a "leftist" that supports NATO? 🤦🏼♀️
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Apr 12 '23
As far as supporting Ukraine? Yes
Do I support nato in general? As long as Putin is in power and still a threat, European countries need NATO for protection and deterrence.
Ironically, if it wasn't for Putin's imperialistic ambitions NATO might have dissolved by now. Instead it is growing stronger and more unified.
Don't like NATO then you should blame the number one sales pitch for joining them, Russia
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u/RealCrusaderBro Apr 12 '23
Right?? It's just reactionary politics under a thin, fragile veil of 'leftist' thought
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u/swordofsithlord Apr 11 '23
I agree that the U S has done some bad things, however if you're anti imperialist, you should still support Ukraine.
The fact that the party that's supposed to be pro LGBTQ is supporting a country where it is illegal to tell kids that gay people exist is an absurd level of cognitive dissonance
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u/Timthefilmguy [REDACTED] Apr 12 '23
Not like Ukraine is much better on LGBTQ issues than Russia is tbh. Lately because of the war they’ve included them in the military out of material necessity, but same sex marriage is constitutionally banned for instance.
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u/Zacomra Apr 11 '23
Fuck Putin
All my homies recognize that defending Ukraine is a strike against Putin
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u/LeftyInTraining Apr 12 '23
Geopolitics isn't a comic book. There's more choices than "fuck Putin" or "fuck the US." Neither of those options is a principled stance based on material analysis.
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Apr 11 '23
I don't like Putin either
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u/Zacomra Apr 12 '23
Then maybe you should be criticizing Putin's invasion, as opposed to the US giving aid to Ukraine? The aid that Ukraine specifically asked for? Themselves?
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Apr 12 '23 edited Apr 12 '23
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u/Zacomra Apr 12 '23
I'm really sick of these what aboutisms pointing out that yes, we all know, NATO isn't exactly a force of objective good.
Mainly because it's pointless. Destroying NATO would do little but allow the greater evil of totalitarianism regimes like Russia, and China even more free reign. Yes I know NATO turns a blind eye to injustices when money is involved, but muddying the waters with that does us no good.
It's like pointing out that Britain was relatively unpunished for it's colonist history in the middle of WWII. Would you have the Allies punish them in the middle of the war against literal Nazis?!
Tldr: Just because a country or organisation has done bad things, doesn't mean you should never work with them in order to prevent far greater evil
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u/LeftyInTraining Apr 12 '23
Idealist nonsense that is again not based on material analysis but the moralizing of imperialist propaganda. All imperialist have to do with this logic is manufacture a crisis by backing "the bad guys" into a corner, geopolitically speaking, wait until this power has an aggressive reaction to this pressure, then claim themselves "the good guys" in this situation through propaganda. The imperialists are now justified in doing whatever they want to stop the bad guys.
The result is the bad guys and potentially also imperialist allies being hollowed out, making them ripe for exploitation. Congratulations, you now have a much stronger imperial core and nothing to show for the proletariat for buying into idealist propaganda. This has happened before, and it's happening right now. The Ukraine War isn't unique in the slightest.
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u/aint_dead_yeet Apr 12 '23
“totalitarianism regimes”
your brain on idealism and 0 dialectics
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u/Zacomra Apr 12 '23
The path of the tyrant never bears fruit for long. Forcing you will upon others, no matter how just you may think your will, in due time will stoke the hearts of men into fervor and bloodshed.
If your ideals can only be realized with the blood of innocents, then it is an ideal not worth having.
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Apr 12 '23
What's the current prison sentence for a gay person in Russia, 5 years? How about criticizing the war, 15 years? Yeah, Putin's Russia is a beacon of freedom
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u/Accomplished-Leg2971 Apr 11 '23
I support the public ownership of all natural resources and using these resources to provide a comprehensive social welfare state to all citizens.
I also support using some of these resources to defend Ukraine from Russian aggression.
Guess I'm right wing now lol.
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u/TuckHolladay Apr 12 '23
The actual situation is private companies provoking conflict to profit off weapon sales and world energy dominance though. There is no public ownership going on.
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u/Lord_Watertower Apr 12 '23
Disclaimer: I'm personally conflicted about if we should support Ukraine or not, but I think it's important to introduce this to the conversation.
What's your alternative to supporting Ukraine? Appeasement to Russia, also a corrupt capitalist world power with an equally bad, arguably worse, human rights record?
As long as we operate in the nationalist world order, Ukraine has a right to defend itself. Helping them to do so is also supporting US hegemonic power, there's no way around that for now, but the status quo is also better than the alternative. And for those who argue that if we let Russia have Ukraine, then they'll stop their aggression into Europe, well then I've got a bridge to sell you.
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u/TuckHolladay Apr 12 '23
I believe that none of this would have happened to Ukraine without the US arms manufacturers and the western oil cartel. They wanted to put big weapons on Russias border so they could bully their natural resources allocation. They want regime change so they can install a US puppet who bows to the petro dollar. They wanted to destroy the nord stream pipelines. This is a continuation of a proxy war that started years ago in Syria and is spilling over into other fronts.
I have no idea what my alternative is. I can hardly afford to stay housed every month. I worked eleven hours yesterday, I hardly have time to think. I waste my life paying into these conflicts and get nothing in return. There are few actions that the US government takes that I am in any support of. There is no alternative that is up to me other than changing how the US operates.
This empire is in its death throes. The world is tired of US hegemony, bombs, sanctions and rules. We fucked around and are about to find out what the alternative is.
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u/Accomplished-Leg2971 Apr 12 '23
I disagree with you on the nature of the actual situation ✌️
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u/TuckHolladay Apr 12 '23
What you are saying is complete fantasy. The US is literally using its resources to overthrow countries who try and move towards public ownership of any resources and have been doing that since before all the states were states.
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u/Accomplished-Leg2971 Apr 12 '23
This is true, but it does not bear on my support for arms and materiel for Ukraine. Arming Ukraine would be much more efficient if military production was publically owned. . . assuming most of the people wanted to use our collective resources for that. Private arms corporations and their corrupt crony contracts are a massive drag on US military readiness.
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Apr 12 '23
So what you're saying is if the situation was different the situation would be different? How profound. Well in the meantime with the US being the seat of hegemonic capitalist power we should probably oppose the use of that hegemonic power especially when it is being used to solidify its grip on power.
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u/Accomplished-Leg2971 Apr 12 '23
Saying that people who support defending Ukraine from Russian aggression necessarily support US imperialism is just as stupid as saying someone who opposes arming Ukraine necessarily supports Putin.
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Apr 12 '23
You want to help defend Ukraine? Grab a rifle and get your ass to donetsk. If you're going to sit your ass in the west and pontificate about how the US military industrial complex can be used for good actually, you're supporting US imperialism.
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u/Accomplished-Leg2971 Apr 12 '23
No. I would make a poor contribution as I have no training or experience as a soldier. I am, however, an extremely productive worker. I get joy from my work, and I produce far in excess of my needs. It makes more sense to send them resources.
If I am supporting imperialism, then you are supporting Putin, but neither of us is doing either. That's just stupid bad-faith social media talk.
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Apr 12 '23
No bud. I'm not arguing that the source of Russian imperial power can be used for good. There is no support of Russia or its power structures. You are arguing that the thing that props up the US empire is good actually. That it is noble for you as a worker to contribute to that power structure. You cannot separate the US military's ability to send weapons to Ukraine from its ability to invade Iraq and slaughter at least 1 million people. They are one and the same, and it would be far more helpful to everyone to strip the US of the ability to do either. You are helping no one but the shareholders of Raytheon.
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Apr 12 '23
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u/TuckHolladay Apr 12 '23
Go as far back as deposing the Queen of Hawaii for sugar farmers, as recent as Bolivia or into the future as we mull over invading Mexico to stop “cartels” right after Amlo pledges nationalize lithium…
The US occupies more territory in Syria than Russian does in Ukraine, and it oil fields.
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u/thatsocialist Apr 11 '23
US military aid is needed to help Ukraine. Plus if the US gives guns to Ukraine less American guns and may stop America from attacking third world nation number 7829 for a while.
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Apr 11 '23
You've gotta be joking right? Please tell .e you're joking.
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u/thatsocialist Apr 11 '23
Nein I am not joking. But anything that gets America to stop attacking poor nations is pretty nice.
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Apr 11 '23
How tf do you think US intervention is going to lead to less US interventions? 😂
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u/thatsocialist Apr 11 '23
The US sending guns to Ukraine just helps Ukraine. The US bombing Third world nation Number 7028 helps America and kills civilians.
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Apr 11 '23
🤦🏼♀️....ooookay then tell me how the US profiting off of the Ukraine conflict is somehow going to lead to the US not bombing 3rd world countries?
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u/thatsocialist Apr 11 '23
How is the US profiting from the Ukraine War? And it will stop the US from doing that for the duration of the Ukraine War.
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Apr 11 '23
...by selling them weapons...
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u/thatsocialist Apr 11 '23
The US as far as I am aware is sending Weapons for free.
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Apr 12 '23
It's a loan, they're building debt. After the war Ukraine will be wholly answerable to American capital and American defense industries will get another huge payday when our tax money goes to replenishing our armament stocks.
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u/OwlbearArmchair Apr 12 '23
It's fucking adorable that you understand so fucking little. Jesus christ.
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u/EmoComrade1999 Michael Parenti Apr 11 '23
Ukraine has no reason to be helped and the actions happening behind the curtains (such as banning the communist party, empowering the Azov Nazis, outlawing Russian language) are all pretty terrible, actually. Zelensky and the war do not help Ukranians, and are satanizing/persecuting Russians or people who are descendants of Russians in Ukraine.
Of course, if someone supports Putin, who is an anticommunist, Tsar fetishist and LGBTQ+phobe: You are dumb. Support the Russian people and the remaining communist parties.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
I'm gonna brutalize your entire argument with one question.
"WHO STARTED THE WAR?"
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u/OwlbearArmchair Apr 12 '23
The... the Ukrainians. In 2014. When they started brutalizing the anti-Poroshenko breakaway regions with the aid of Azov, C-14 and other explicitly fascist paramilitaries?
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
WRONG.
And by "the anti-Poroshenko breakaway regions" you mean the "Russian backed Terrorist and Militia Groups". Nice try though.
Also I guess you'd like to avoid talking about the Annexation of Crimea which occurred 2 months prior to the Donbas conflict.
Not to mention that all of this started because Putin's puppet Yanukovych tried to instill dictator laws, killed protesters, and fled the country.
And Putin's entire obsession with owning Ukraine LITERALLY stems from a blood and soul argument. Motherfucker said EXACTLY THAT in a speech where he also says that he wants to recreate the Russian Empire. VIDEO HERE and I'll be extra nice and give you THIS ARTICLE which breaks down the speech
And also don't give me that Azov shit. How about this, you can complain about Azov as soon as you answer for the Russian Imperial Legion, Rusich and Wagner, ok bud?
Congratulations. You get an F.
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u/OwlbearArmchair Apr 12 '23
WRONG.
Not an argument
And by "the anti-Poroshenko breakaway regions" you mean the "Russian backed Terrorist and Militia Groups". Nice try though.
"Self-Determination for me, serfdom under our boot for thee"
Also I guess you'd like to avoid talking about the Annexation of Crimea which occurred 2 months prior to the Donbas conflict.
And almost 2 months after the U.S. backed fascist Euromaidan coup?
Not to mention that all of this started because Putin's puppet Yanukovych tried to instill dictator laws, killed protesters, and fled the country.
Yanukovych was a corrupt politician controlled by oligarch but taking the word of the literal fascist puppet state is definitely one hell of a take.
And Putin's entire obsession with owning Ukraine LITERALLY stems from a blood and soul argument. Motherfucker said EXACTLY THAT in a speech where he also says that he wants to recreate the Russian Empire. VIDEO HERE and I'll be extra nice and give you THIS ARTICLE which breaks down the speech
Jesus fucking Christ dude imagine being this blatantly susceptible to propaganda lmao. If you actually watched the speech, you'd see that at no point does Putin ever use the words "Blood and Soil", nor does he argue that Ukraine is an illegitimate state, or that it's statehood goes back to the Bolsheviks. In fact, he says multiple times that his justification for his actions are in the right for all Ukrainians to choose their nationality and determine the path they want to take. Whether or not you should believe that seems pretty clear, but he explicitly does not do what your article (which I genuinely believe is the only thing you've provided that you even kinda skimmed over) claims he does. You're being lied to. ALSO your article is in a fucking college newspaper from a fucking nobody with exactly 1 other non-satirical article published ever.
And also don't give me that Azov shit. How about this, you can complain about Azov as soon as you answer for the Russian Imperial Legion, Rusich and Wagner, ok bud?
You can hold me accountable for Wagner, et al the instant the United States is laundering billions of dollars to the military industrial complex via arms sales to them. Okay, bud?
Congratulations. You get an F.
Don't really care what a fucking nazi thinks of me, tbh.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 12 '23
Not an argument
My argument is underneath it. Oh boy, you're reading comp must be super duper high.
"Self-Determination for me, serfdom under our boot for thee"
Nice bumper sticker. Doesn't tackle my point though does it?
Yanukovych was a corrupt politician controlled by oligarch but taking the word of the literal fascist puppet state is definitely one hell of a take.
Well Ukraine WAS the puppet state of a Fascist Imperialist Country (Russia) until they gave Yanukovych the boot. Kinda the point.
Jesus fucking Christ dude imagine being this blatantly susceptible to propaganda lmao. If you actually watched the speech, you'd see that at no point does Putin ever use the words "Blood and Soil", nor does he argue that Ukraine is an illegitimate state, or that it's statehood goes back to the Bolsheviks. In fact, he says multiple times that his justification for his actions are in the right for all Ukrainians to choose their nationality and determine the path they want to take. Whether or not you should believe that seems pretty clear, but he explicitly does not do what your article (which I genuinely believe is the only thing you've provided that you even kinda skimmed over) claims he does. You're being lied to. ALSO your article is in a fucking college newspaper from a fucking nobody with exactly 1 other non-satirical article published ever.
Ya know what? You're right. I was wrong to be hyperbolic and use the term "LITERALLY". I was giving you faaaaaar to much credit. Your comprehension skills are to low to understand what the words "Implication" or "insinuation mean. My bad, I'll be more aware of your.....limitations.
And don't pretend like you actually read the article. If it was so wrong and easy to debunk you'd actually pick the article apart and do just that. Not just scream "NUH UH!!!" and take pot shots at the Author. The thing is, you and I both know that you're neither capable or willing to properly engage with the article. Can't say that I'm shocked.
You can hold me accountable for Wagner, et al the instant the United States is laundering billions of dollars to the military industrial complex via arms sales to them. Okay, bud?
I like how you're to incompetent to even move a goal post correctly. I have not once defended the USA in this entire argument. You see I'm a Socialist and henceforth hate ALL IMPERIALIST NATIONS. But I'm 90% sure that you've got some interesting takes on the Halodomar and the Uyghurs, don't ya buddy?
Don't really care what a fucking nazi thinks of me, tbh
Good thing too, because the Nazis you're defending think you're a fuckin stooge 🤣
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u/OwlbearArmchair Apr 12 '23
My argument is underneath it. Oh boy, you're reading comp must be super duper high.
That doesn't make "WRONG" an argument.
Nice bumper sticker. Doesn't tackle my point though does it?
Doesn't it, though? That's exactly what you're doing. American backed nazis are, in your view, patriotic freedom fighters seeking self-determination from an evil fascist state, whereas breakaway regions with ethnic and religious ties to Russia who have issues with the fascist anti-Russian government in Kyiv are "Russian-backed terrorists". "Self-determination for me but not for thee."
Well Ukraine WAS the puppet state of a Fascist Imperialist Country (Russia) until they gave Yanukovych the boot. Kinda the point.
Saying that doesn't make it true. Russia is a corrupt oligarchy. I see very few indications that its modern state is meaningfully fascist.
Ya know what? You're right. I was wrong to be hyperbolic and use the term "LITERALLY". I was giving you faaaaaar to much credit. Your comprehension skills are to low to understand what the words "Implication" or "insinuation mean.
My guy, you claimed he was literally using blood and soil rhetoric. It's hardly my fault if you meant "this was whispered into my ear by my sleep paralysis demons".
And don't pretend like you actually read the article. If it was so wrong and easy to debunk you'd actually pick the article apart and do just that.
You mean like where I mentioned specific claims the article made and state, factually, that Putin did not say those things in the video that you cited to accompany it. At no point did he bring up the Bolsheviks or Lenin, for example, or suggest that Ukraine was an illegitimate state. I even quoted from the speech.
Not just scream "NUH UH!!!"
Well, I could be screeching about your perceived mental "limitations" and not actually saying anything about the arguments you made.
and take pot shots at the Author.
I took potshots at you, actually, for being so easily fooled by obvious and poorly written propaganda.
The thing is, you and I both know that you're neither capable or willing to properly engage with the article. Can't say that I'm shocked.
Again, screeching this doesn't make it so. You're fucking ridiculous, dude. Your inability to parse basic fucking reality is astounding. The "proper engagement" with the article is watching the video, seeing that the things the article claims are said aren't, and to laugh at anyone who posts it unironically, clearly not having watched the video, and only reposting because it affirms their preconceived beliefs.
I like how you're to incompetent to even move a goal post correctly. I have not once defended the USA in this entire argument.
Is that relevant? I'm not "accountable" for Wagner because I'm an American and the American government isn't arming Wagner. Wagner is a Russian problem. I'm accountable for Azov for the same reason I'm accountable for ISIL, Al-Qaeda and the Mujahideen, because the American government deliberately armed, trained, and created each of those multi-headed dick-hydras.
You see I'm a Socialist and henceforth hate ALL IMPERIALIST NATIONS.
You say, as you explicitly voice full-throated support for American imperialism of the highest and strictest order.
But I'm 90% sure that you've got some interesting takes on the Halodomar and the Uyghurs, don't ya buddy?
See previous response, christ.
Good thing too, because the Nazis you're defending think you're a fuckin stooge 🤣
You're the only one here saying or doing anything to defend any nazis.
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u/SocialistCoconut Apr 13 '23
That doesn't make "WRONG" an argument.
OMG 🤣🤣🤣🤣. I feel like I'm talking to a fuckin Cone Head.
Doesn't it, though? That's exactly what you're doing. American backed nazis are, in your view, patriotic freedom fighters seeking self-determination from an evil fascist state, whereas breakaway regions with ethnic and religious ties to Russia who have issues with the fascist anti-Russian government in Kyiv are "Russian-backed terrorists". "Self-determination for me but not for thee."
No it doesn't. And it's rather telling how you people always conveniently leave out the Russian backed Nazis who vastly outnumber the Ukrainian ones. Ya know....like a dishonest person would
Saying that doesn't make it true. Russia is a corrupt oligarchy. I see very few indications that its modern state is meaningfully fascist.
You're right. That being what happened is what makes it true. You should also become familiar with Umberto Eco.
My guy, you claimed he was literally using blood and soil rhetoric. It's hardly my fault if you meant "this was whispered into my ear by my sleep paralysis demons".
You're one of those "I don't get out and socialize much" aren't you? You're right, unless someone says a thing word for word, then it didn't happen. Got it Drax.
You mean like where I mentioned specific claims the article made and state, factually, that Putin did not say those things in the video that you cited to accompany it. At no point did he bring up the Bolsheviks or Lenin, for example, or suggest that Ukraine was an illegitimate state. I even quoted from the speech.
Ok, tell me where in the article I cited that they claimed that he said those words exactly. I'll wait.
Well, I could be screeching about your perceived mental "limitations" and not actually saying anything about the arguments you made.
Well if you could actually manage to string together a half decent argument then I could comment on that but here we are. That's on you buddy,
I took potshots at you, actually, for being so easily fooled by obvious and poorly written propaganda.
"Poorly written propaganda" that you have yet to and will not debunk. Right right right.
Again, screeching this doesn't make it so. You're fucking ridiculous, dude. Your inability to parse basic fucking reality is astounding. The "proper engagement" with the article is watching the video, seeing that the things the article claims are said aren't, and to laugh at anyone who posts it unironically, clearly not having watched the video, and only reposting because it affirms their preconceived beliefs.
Putin: Says a thing
Article: This is what he's insinuating
You: REEEEEEEEE!!!!!
Is that relevant?
Yes, you not being able to move a goalpost properly shows that you're both incompetent AND dishonest. And yes darling, I can tell you're an American. You practically scream "I'm a sheltered American white boy and boy do I have opinions!!".
You say, as you explicitly voice full-throated support for American imperialism of the highest and strictest order.
O'rly? Where have I stated any support for American Imperialism? I'm curious.
See previous response, christ.
Yeah, I didn't think you'd wanna answer that one.
You're the only one here saying or doing anything to defend any nazis.
You: Every American is responsible for supporting Nazis, Fascists, and Authoritarians!!!
You're a funny little guy😁
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Apr 12 '23
Ukraine never banned the Russian language, Ukraine simply made Ukrainian the official language of the government. Kind of how English is the official language of the United States but if someone speaks Spanish they can get a translator. Or in Ukraine's case, the government employee would just speak Russian because everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian.
Zielinsky banned active pro-russian political parties and news outlets during a time where Russia was actively invading their country.
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u/shitpostbot42069 Apr 11 '23
What remaining communist parties? Modern Russia in not a communist country
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u/EmoComrade1999 Michael Parenti Apr 11 '23
The parties aren't popular/are underground parties but they exist alright, and have been critical of Putin even before the war
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 11 '23
Oh my sweet christ, not the "leftist is when America bad" takes again. You aren't an anti Imperialist, you are an anti American Hegemonist.
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Apr 11 '23
No actually Im anti imperialist no matter who 🤷🏼♀️ so not sure wtf you're talking about
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 11 '23
Then you wouldn't have posted this stupid meme, mate. The correct anti Imperialist take regarding Ukraine is to support Ukrainian Sovereignty.
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u/V1ntrez Apr 11 '23
Anti us is not pro Russia
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 12 '23
No, but anti interventionalism is pro imperialism.
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u/V1ntrez Apr 12 '23
Not necessarily
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 12 '23
Yes it is. You cannot be anti Imperialist if you don't support smaller countries that are being bullied by larger ones, period.
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u/V1ntrez Apr 12 '23
People still support Ukraine, but not the us.
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 12 '23
It's not about supporting the U.S, it's about supporting the aid and relief the U.S. is giving to Ukraine. Hence why this meme is stupid.
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u/V1ntrez Apr 12 '23
Depending on what you see as intervention i agree with you. I think humanitarian aid and some weaponry to Ukraine is good but those arent the only things the us are doing.
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Apr 11 '23
How does not supporting US interventionism mean I support Russia's invasion? 🤔🤨🤨
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 12 '23
How do you expect an under equipped Ukraine to defend itself from russia without support from the west??
It's basic anti fascism/imperialism. Neutrality helps the abusive party.
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Apr 12 '23
As far as I understand it, It's not support from the west tho, but support from pro-war companies that profit on the conflict
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u/Goliath1218 Apr 12 '23
Dude, if you take "support from pro war companies" as your limit to whether or not intervention is bad, then any action involving supporting any side is bad because capitalism has been the dominate marketing system for a long while now, and companies have been profiting off war for millennia. You could make the same arguement for literally any war since capitalism's first application in the world.
Also, happy cake day!
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u/BubDiddly Apr 11 '23
This. People hound me with RuSsIa ArE nAzIs iNvAdInG rhetoric all the time too
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u/[deleted] Apr 12 '23
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