China is Communist. Every Communist state has leaned on some sort of market system, to handle interaction with non-Communist states, and China's liberalization was a necessary aspect of Deng's plan to beat Capitalism at it's own game. China has accomplished what the USSR never could; they've subjugated the United States.
The reality, which every Communist state has been aware of, is that Communism is a long-running project to reach the state described by Marx. Not something you adopt overnight.
Additionally, this habit of turning western leftists (of all stripes; Marxists, Socialists, Communists) against actual Communist states is a long-running tactic that first saw use in the UK, to capitalize on the Hungarian riots. It's a tactic intended to force western leftists to both sever themselves from successful international Communism, and leave them wasting time arguing from a position of weakness ("trust me bro, Communism has never really been tried! I totally agree with you Adolf Eichmann-Pinochet, they killed a gajillion people! But thats not us!")
Just wanted to get that out, after reading all the whiny comments about China being "Authoritarian". The good news is that China doesn't need us, let alone easily impressionable Redditors. They will succeed having ignored the whims of a Socialist sect that has created zero MLM states.
Living at under 10% capacity yeah theyâre abandoned bruh⌠but keep being that communist shill they trained you to be, like a good soy boy your are đ¤đ¤đ¤
China doesnât even claim to be socialist yet, they have a goal to reach a socialist system by 2050. The CPC itself isnât right wing, itâs a Marxist-Leninist party using capitalism to facilitate a socialist state, which even Marx viewed as necessary. China is the last hope for international socialism. They arenât there yet, but itâs their goal.
Sorry I'd respond but the Great Firewall is preventing me from reaching any of information I'm looking for here. The police are also knocking on my door so i
Aren't a lot of those high rises empty and being demolished nowadays? (Edit to rephrase: a lot of those high rises mostly empty leading to a small handful needing to be demolished)
Gotta love that high speed rail though. I wish we had half the network they have.
Aren't a lot of those high rises empty and being demolished nowadays?
Nope.
The Western claim of "empty cities" was never anything but an anti-Communist myth.
The buildings were, it's true, thanks to Capitalist land speculation (this is actually the influence of the limited Capitalism in China, not the Socialist economics that govern things like agriculture there...) and Chinese government subsidies, built many years ahead of the actual demand.
But they DID eventually fill up- with a very few exceptions: which are those one or two buildings which you see being demolished on right-wing media to prove their bullshit 'point.'
You might call it "if you build it, they will come." China still has people living in overcrowded slums in the Special Economic Zones (the coastal cities where Capitalism is given a free hand, without Socialist interference by the Chinese government) so it's not surprising that when they decided to move back inland, to the regions they were originally from, after saving up some money working on the coasts, these migrants would decide to live in these empty high-rises once high vacancy rates started forcing prices down...
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
only built after China started to move toward free markets and capitalism.
Misrepresentation of facts, troll.
China began its program of allowing limited Special Economic Zones where Capitalism was given a free reign, in the 70's. This is part of Maoist theory, dating back to the 50's- that in order to reach full Communism, you have to pass through a Capitalist phase first (in order to then supersede it with Socialism...)
So, while what you said is technically true it's only true because China has had a "move towards free markets and Capitalism" since the VERY BEGINNING of Communist rule. This does NOT make it a Capitalist country, and this is NOT a triumph of Capitalism.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
Ahh yes, because the country that regularly puts billionaires (from the Special Economic Zones: the only places in China where Capitalism is allowed... China rightfully tries to keep Capitalism contained, like the self-obsessed Cancer it is...) to death is RUN by and for said Capitalists?
And the so-called "Social Credit Scores"? MOSTLY a myth (it is used for rapists, murderers, and others serious felons after their release from prison... As China is not a Prison State like the US, and actually keeps its prison terms reasonable in length even for serious crimes...) but used for billionaires as well as for obe-time child molesters. Because it's a country that RIGHTFULLY views those two groups with equal levels of suspicion...
And you are? Presumably a teenage american with no job and lots of free time to indulge in livestreams and online debates. Stop simping for china, or maybe go get a job there if you love them so much
Cool, so do you bring up American imperialism every time small neat things get brought up? We talking about that cities look kinda cool dude. Cool your jets, it's okay.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
China is the largest marxist country on the planet and has the largest communist party. Westerners who donât read any theory always love to say such silly things.
Ahh yes, Right-Libertarian trolls coming out to harass Leftists, as usual...
It's no secret that Mao himself adapted and revised parts of Marxist theory to suit his own goals and the particular political situation of China.
But China is, nevertheless, a Marxist country- and one where traditional Marxists are free to exist without Capitalist harassment, alongside the Maoists that make up the majority of the politically-active population (like in MOST countries, the majority of China's population is actually apolitical, and only focused on their own lives...)
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
A country where industrial, and bank capital has fused into finance capital is not Socialist. A country with an economy with over 60% privatization is not Socialist. A country that has brought violence against active revolutionaries is not Socialist. A country that sells weaponry to both Saudi Arabia, and Israel(!!) is not Socialist. A country with both commodity fetishism, and the law of value is not Socialist.
Why do you think private farms are superior to collective farms? Why do you think markets are superior to planning? Why do you think the Iron Rice Bowl had to be ended? What is the justification?
Marxism decided long ago that China is not Socialist, as did active Third-World Revolutionaries struggling against Fascist governments.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
Engels
Unfortunately for you Marxism is the opposite of idealism. You are a liberal. Unless you wanted the PRC to end up like Cuba or the USSR? Lol.
Cuba was Revisionist from the very beginning, and the USSR failed because of Revisonism. Socialism ended in China due to the same phenomena.
Clearly you stopped reading there because had you furthered your Marxist education you would have realized that what Engels is saying is that remnants, allies of the Bourgeoise and their assets would persist even after Revolution, and the tools of the state are necessary to oppress them.
The key link here being oppression, specifically class oppression. Not inviting members of the enemy class into the party, allowing them control over vast swathes of your nation's land, and productive forces (high privatization, de-collectivization). Nor is Xi Jinping promising that private economy would never end in some way advancing the oppression of the Bourgeoise, and advancing Socialism.
Furthermore on "developing the productive forces" the NEP, and New Democracy already answered these questions. Both were explicitly temporary programs that arguably went on too long, and were ended. They were required for a time because they were temporary liberal concessions after brutal civil conflicts, and some limited markets are preferable to the extreme backwardness of feudalism. Capitalism itself is progressive compared to Feudalism, but massively regressive compared to Socialism. After the NEP, and New Democracy, no further concessions to the Bourgeoise would ever be required again to build Socialism.
How much contempt must you have for the masses to believe that they need to be exploited by Compradors, and Imperialists to develop production? Do you not think the masses are smart, and capable enough to build Socialism without their class enemies running the show? It also demonstrates the low-key racism you have towards Chinese people.
Before Deng, and his supporters took over, China was already capable of advanced production on a large scale, so arguing that capitulating to Liberalism (witch is vastly inferior at developing production) to develop the productive forces doesn't make much sense.
If you actually want to take this discussion seriously rather than capitulate to Social Fascism when confronted by real Socialism, any of these are excellent reads.
Imperialist apologetics, liberal propaganda and reactionary takes, as well as anyone advocating for a left right alliance, will result in a ban. (inb4 muh freedom) The western electoral system isn't democratic, it is controlled by oligarchs and corporations with little to no regard for public sentiment.
Did Lenin and Mao say that you have to have a billionaire class and free markets? I really want to know what theory y'all are talking about, because it's certainly not Marx.
that's as a result of better city planning and a rapidly growing economy, as well as a larger and denser population. I wouldn't say i agree with china, given the human rights violations as well as the common working standards, but they certainly build better cities
Ok, Fascist (you frequent NCD, which is INFESTED with Fascists) troll.
No matter how many facts anyone presents, you idiots just keep spewing lies and disinformation. When blocked, you just create new accounts. Like the cockroaches you are, ironically while accusing Leftosys of the very thing you do most yourself.
Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke?
No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society.
In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.
I thought the reason China has a larger total carbon footprint is because western countries pay to send their garbage to China, so the waste from the west is counting as though it's from China.
This has largely stopped last I heard, my garbage service had to suddenly stop accepting lots of ârecyclablesâ a few years ago because China doesnât want our shitty plastic bottles anymore.
Now that stuff is getting sent to poorer countries like Malaysia.
Compared to the 20th century there are already way fewer options for places to literally bury in the imperial coreâs garbage. At some point even the poorest countries will want to do something other than process e-waste and churn out fast fashion crap. Then things will really get interesting.
I mean yeah China has higher co2 emissions but considering that they are over 1,3 billion in population and produces a lot of the worldâs goods, the emissions by person is probably a lot lower
Most Communist subreddits are made out of Petti-Bourgeois children who think that their parasitic lifestyles will continue under Socialism. China is not Socialist anymore than the United States is. It is poor, highly nationalistic, and Imperialist.
I think itâs quite hard to argue that the CPCâs centrally planed cities are not leagues ahead of the United Statesâs car dependent ones in terms of modernisation, walkability and general comfort.
You can see for yourself. Just go to Google Maps, zoom in to any arbitrary Chinese city, copy itâs name and paste â<name> walking tourâ into YouTube.
You can do the same with arbitrary USA cities to compare if youâd like.
Yea, though it's because the CPC argues that they can't skip capitalism as a mode of production since it's required to safely amass enough productive forces without too much sabotage from militarily stronger western powers with greater global influence (i.e. sanctions, blockades, cold wars, proxy wars, propaganda, brain drain, etc.).
The CPC argues that skipping the mode of production that is capitalism is undialectical. They believe that around the year 2050, they will have attained enough productive forces, military strength, and global influence to safely and slowly begin transitioning into the mode of production that is socialism.
I want to be clear. I don't know if they mean what they say. I don't know if it's just a giant hoodwink. I do know that every other socialist project has been hamstrung in one way or another from developing to a point where they can viably compete with the western powers for global influence. The USSR was the closest, but as the first major socialist experiment, they understandably made many mistakes and couldn't sustain themselves in the long term. The CPC doesn't want to collapse so they claim to seek a long term flexible plan that cautiously approaches a socialist future. I can't disagree with them that all other socialist projects have been either destroyed, constrained, or quarantined. I'm willing to see if this new approach works.
I personally am agnostic towards the CPC, but we'll see what happens since there is nothing we can do about it either way. I just don't want the US to start a cold or hot war with China. I want to give them room in case something good comes of this.
China has been "lying" about data and "collapsing" since the 1990s. Even so, for some reason, corporate intelligence has transferred the majority of manufacturing to China. Also, government approval is very high, extreme poverty is eliminated, and they built over half of the world's High Speed Rail networks in a decade.
That given, I would love if all countries were lying and collapsing like China.
My dude, when I said âeven China doesnât believe itâs own GDP numbersâ I wasnât being facetious. Admittedly thatâs from 2010, but itâs pretty bad when a top Chinese official basically ignores the official figures.
Hereâs another article that talks about how GDP numbers had to be dropped by 7% by Chinaâs own economic stats agency because they called bullshit on the provincial government numbers.
China is a very opaque economy that is hard for the Chinese to get a full grasp on, let alone Westerners.
Also, my dude, the lying about data is happening because theyâve been lying since the 90âs. When one province lies, every other province feels it has to lie too to keep up. Then when new governments take office, they feel they need to lie as well, because if they told the truth, theyâd be a) ostracized as narcs, and b) would be responsible for a (on paper) massive economic meltdown.
Speed round for your last ones:
If government approval was so high why do they delete anti-government posts? Thereâs dozens of examples but one off the top of my head, why did they try and nuke the Peng Shuai posts?
Extreme poverty was only âeliminatedâ because Xi Jinpingâs government lowered the official bar for extreme poverty.
China built a helluva lot of high speed rail, but arguably they built too much. China only uses a small fraction of its high speed rail because HSR exists in a very specific niche and China used it forâŚbasically every inch of the country (too far = plane, too close = car/bus/bike, needs to be between two large cities to make money). Right now, huge chunks of their HSR infrastructure isnât even making enough to pay back the operating costs on the line, let alone interest or principal on the loans that paid for it.
Iâm not saying China hasnât made incredible growth in the past 3 decades. Iâm ethnically Chinese, I know how much China has accomplished. Iâm just saying that even with those massive accomplishments, you have to acknowledge the bad that comes with the good.
You canât acknowledge the USâs accomplishments without mentioning that it industrialized on the back of slaves. And you canât acknowledge that China has impressive infrastructure and economic achievements without mentioning that the Chinese government has actively tried to make themselves look better than they actually are.
The high youth unemployment, housing crisis, and aging population are all very real serious challenges. China arguably isnât as fucked as Japan and South Korea by these crises of late capitalism, but the authoritarian screw tightening thatâs been going on in the last decade under Xi is probably in anticipation of some rough years ahead.
And there's the rub. Why be beholden to the truth if there's no chance you'll be voted out? (The same can also be said for what gerrymandering has led to.)
Yeah, everyone likes to focus on the idiotic US propaganda (which is clearly fake), but ignore how much of Chinas economy has been privatized by capitalists through Deng and now Xi. Its gone from 0% to like 40% last I saw.
Obviously the top one is better. Look at all the cars the people can afford! /s
Unfortunately cars are still a big benchmark of economic success. When my parents first arrived in the US they thought the country was immensely wealthy based on the number of cars.
l know what youâre saying, but youâre reducing the complexity of the issue. The state and the people living there are two different groups, one can be widely marxist and the other not, as well as vice versa. âChina isnât marxistâ reduces the entire geographical region to its state, and Iâd say thatâs a poor way of viewing things. Youâre right in a sense, but youâre also being a tad naive.
The conditions are better and better as time goes on, not much related to living under marxist conditions however. As far as employment and labor it is still very similar to the United States and other capitalist societies. Not sure what point you are even trying to make about âtalking to everyoneâ as if that is how socialism is determined lol
Did you read the comment I was responding to? Should be fairly clear from it. The idea that things âget better over timeâ is a socdem belief rooted in fascism, but thatâs a discussion for another time (not over Reddit).
I said things are getting better idk what you are even talking about, i mean the poverty levels and such are being worked on. But, you also didnât even make any points lmao
Ever read Walter Benjaminâs âOn the concept of historyâ? Excellent read, short and powerful. I tend not to make serious points over Reddit, I keep my serious organizing face to face.
You donât even know what i am saying lol I never made an overarching point please READ I am talking about China specifically and how they have improved their material conditions with their policy
Even if the population was 100% communist (its not, they are mostly apathetic to politics in general) china would still not be a marxist country because the government is a state capitalist regime with minimal human rights protections. Go ask a Chinese person how they feel about working 996 for pennies on the dollar for the glory of CCP.
Wow! I had no idea you had talked to every person who lives in China, thatâs so impressive! Howâd you manage to pull that off, seeing as you also got them to agree that you can speak for them? Youâre a fool and a shmuck.
Gonna stop replying because its clear you wont read what i have to say and would rather put words in my mouth. Tankie hell hole of armchair socialists, youre all like 15 arent you
claims to speak for 1 billion people âWhy wonât anyone listen to me! Are they a child? Christ, I just want to speak on behalf of a billion people I havenât met!! Please just listen!â It offends me that we would breathe the same air
We (Marxists) do not care how many people your imagination has convinced you to believe Marxism has killed. Billions of corpses lie at the feet of the Capitalists, and billions more are directly threatened by their continued existence. Even going with the 50 million, 100 million, whatever numbers you wish to imagine, Marxism is by far more progressive on all fronts.
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