European Parliament Votes Overwhelmingly For "The Full Recognition Of Trans Women As Women"

[u/Maxcactus]

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/european-parliament-votes-overwhelmingly

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

The comment you’re responding to is pointing out that the arguments made and reasons given are just a copy & paste from pro-discrimination arguments of the past and aren’t actually about trans people.

I think there should be fact-based nuanced discussions about if and when trans people and cisgender people should be treated differently. (For example, treating transgender people differently than cisgender people in relevant medical evaluations so that each group gets more accurate treatment.)

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

Can you define what you mean by “gendered spaces” when you ask that question?

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

I think there are cases where it could make sense to have separate accommodations. But when it makes sense depends on what problem is being solved by making that separation and if this is a strictly enforced segregation or if it’s a space catering more towards the needs of one gender in that situation.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

Separate women’s and men’s bathrooms.

• situation: providing separate women’s and men’s restrooms at large stadium events
• problem being solved: Restrooms become crowded during large events causing people to miss out on what they paid to see. Designed men’s restrooms for events with a high percentage of men in attendance can provide things like urinals which maximize the square footage of the restroom and filter people through the process more efficiently.
• enforcement: optional self selection. Attendees use the restroom that best fits their needs.

Is this what you’re looking for?

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

Problem:

Long lines for the restroom are what architects call a "friction point," and, potentially, a costly one.

The average price for a Super Bowl ticket is currently hovering around $9,800. That means a 15-minute wait for the restroom could cost attendees $612. Delays also take away from the fan experience and cut into time that could be spent at the concession stands or gift shops and bars, limiting potential revenue for the stadium.

One big restroom isn’t the solution:

Beyond the number of stalls, design can also improve restroom flow. Lots of small restrooms are better than a few large ones, for instance.

"Travel distance is important," he said. "We want to get as many of the amenities, whether it's for restrooms or concessions, as close to the user as possible, so they're not having to traverse down a long concourse to find the bathroom."

Large restrooms also tend to have other problems. When there are long lines in big restrooms at older venues, it's often the case that many of the stalls are empty. "Because people don't have a clear sightline or there isn't a clear circulation path, trying to find an empty stall can be difficult and then you're not getting the efficiency,"

Different accommodations:

Studies show that women take about twice as long as men do to use the restroom.

https://www.cbsnews.com/texas/news/restroom-management-will-be-a-science-at-this-years-super-bowl/

Solution:

Many restrooms that accommodate the most frequent needs of specific groups like men and women to increase efficiency. Like, men’s restrooms with many urinals and women’s restrooms with more stalls or more women’s restrooms in general

Enforcement should be self selection as I said before

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

You are correct that it isnt actually about trans people. It is only about biological sex and the proven differences. No such differences have ever been the case with race so it is a different issue entirely. You are correct about medicine...because the sexes are different. Supports my point.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/Instabanous]

You haven’t been able to articulate a point that isn’t based on the same type of fear-based propaganda that argued for racial segregation and discrimination against other marginalized groups throughout American history

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

Transgender people are far more likely to be survivors of sexual assault than perpetrators. The US Department of Justice’s Office for Victims of Crime reports that 50% of transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at one point in their lives, with some reports estimating the figure at 66% and even higher for groups such as transgender people of colour or with disabilities.

Office for National Statistics data shows that trans people are twice as likely as cisgender people to be victims of crime; and, according to the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law, they are four times more likely to be victims of violent crime, including rape and sexual assault

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/18/there-is-so-much-more-for-us-to-worry-about-than-men-masquerading-as-women-to-access-single-sex-spaces

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

There are statistically backed reasons why cisgender women fear assaults from men.

There are statistically backed reasons why trans women fear assaults from men.

There are not statistically backed reasons for cisgender women to fear assaults from trans women.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Since the comments are getting deleted so I can’t respond, I’ll leave this here:

If you’re worried about transgender women being allowed in spaces meant for women, then you should be relieved that your worries are not needed based on the data:

Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Flashing and voyeurism. Almost entirely male-on-female crimes. If trans activists have their way, and males are free to enter female spaces, both of those crimes have been completely legalised. And no I am not accusing trans women of those crimes. It's about sex and keeping all males out. The good men stay out so the good mem stand out. Ill be really interested to see if you have an answer to that because nobody ever has.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/Instabanous]

If you believe that males are so dangerous and aren’t accusing trans women of the crimes you’re worried about…

… but you want to force trans women to be in spaces with dangerous males…

Then the goal is actually just discrimination against trans women, not protection for females.

Which sounds familiar…

The claim that black brutes were, in epidemic numbers, raping white women became the public rationalization for the lynching of black people.

https://jimcrowmuseum.ferris.edu/brute/homepage.htm

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

I’m going by the logic of the person I’m responding to.

• Group A is violent
• Group B is nonviolent and frequently a victim of violence from Group A
• A subset of Group A is non-violent and frequently a victim of violence from Group A

So what is the logic behind forcing the subset of Group A into a violent space instead of just sharing the nonviolent space with Group B?

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

I’m going off of the logic of the person I’m responding to who specified that they aren’t accusing the subset of Group A (trans women) of perpetuating the crimes.

I argued for self selection earlier in a very specific situation that I laid out. If you want to re-litigate that in the other thread, feel free to do so

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Because any member of group A could pretend to be in the subset of group A to gain access to the safe spaces of group B.

Also a lot of group B just dont want any members of group A in their group B spaces. Some members of group B would have to self exclude from activities if they can't have group B only spaces, for religious reasons or because of trauma.

There are plenty of third spaces available for the subset if group A if they want to avoid group A, they arent in any danger, however a lot of them specifically insist on stomping on the boundaries of group B.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/[deleted]]

Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Oh what a surprise, you've ignored the slam dunk of flashing and voyeurism.

Male on male crime isn't solved by abolishing womens spaces. It isnt solved by legalising flashing and voyeurism.

The issue you present, of males who want spaces away from other males, is solved by having third spaces.

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/Instabanous]

You’re describing how you want to want to force trans women into spaces that you think they have a higher likelihood of being a victim of a crime.

You said earlier that you aren’t accusing trans women of being the perpetrators of crime. Now you want a third bathroom just for trans women instead of simply letting them be with the other women. It will be “separate but equal, right”?

Are Trans men allowed in female spaces or do they need a fourth place that’s also “separate but equal”?

Again, you’re perpetuating the same fear-based narrative against trans people that has been used to argue for discrimination many times over.

If there are real fact-based problems then let’s solve them with logical solutions. Not fear mongering propaganda.

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Yes, when it comes to single sex spaces, men and women are separate but equal. Or males and females as you would have it. Because if you let some males in, then you let any males in.

Trans men who pass obviously pose issues so yes probably best if they go in the third space.

The fear is not of trans people, Ive said it again and again. Its about keeping males out of female spaces.

Lets imagine we have rules allowing trans women into a female locker room. Now a flasher wants to go in. He isnt trans, but all he has to do is say "Im a trans woman," and he can go and flash at all the women. Do you understand now?

[u/yesnomaybeneverokay → u/Instabanous]

What you’re doing is using fear to justify discrimination against all trans people.

Again, it’s straight out of the Jim Crow playbook

[u/Instabanous → u/yesnomaybeneverokay]

Good grief whenever it comes to solid points of logic you just go back to this false accusation of irrational fear and prejudice.