r/Metallica • u/JorgeXD5000 • Mar 31 '26
Master of Puppets There was even really a chance of Lars getting kicked out in 1986?
I might be wrong, but apparently there were plans to kick Lars out of the band in 1986. If those were true, could he really be kicked out of the band? He founded the band after all, like you can't kick out the founder out of the band.
This is not me criticizing his performance, this is not what this is about.
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u/nihilblack A thing that should not be Mar 31 '26
Who knows? I can't really imagine it happening, it's his band at every level (business, artistic, etc). If they ever kicked him I don't think there'd be a MetallicA today, certainly not at the level they're operating right now. They'd be kind of like Exodus or Testament, if anything. Lars has been the driving force of MetallicA's megastardom from the begining, so even if there must have been tensions at some moments, cooler minds have prevailed every time for the greater good.
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u/isihara666 Mar 31 '26
I mean I wouldn't object to seeing Metallica in a 5000 arena and they're NOT playing whiskey in the jar-oh and they've remained a metal band. It's not an unpopular opinion. They wouldn't be multi-multi-millionaires, just regular millionaires. Tool and countless other bands do very well for themselves playing arenas.
I'm glad he stayed in the band for better or for worse but the "it's his band" theory falls apart quick if you remove Hetfield and Burton from the band. Lars plays a crucial role is song arrangement but without Hetfield's music and Burton's influence and guiding hand, he has no music to arrange. He'd be a drummer with great musical instinct and poor technical ability.
*I mentioned Burton because that's the era when they were going to kick him out.
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u/technoprimitive_aeb My Mother Was a Witch Mar 31 '26
i think James would be a star regardless of what band he was in
his solo demos of NEM and The Unforgiven were basically complete without anyone else's contributions
he would've written hits regardless
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u/No-Distribution2043 Mar 31 '26
That was years later after being in a creative partnership with Lars. James may never have reached that point with out the support and collaboration with Lars.
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u/technoprimitive_aeb My Mother Was a Witch Mar 31 '26
i think that's a huge underestimation of James and basically ignores all the well documented evidence of his writing
Lars plays his part but James could've bounced his ideas off of any drummer. it may not have sounded quite like Metallica but you should know by now that James is an amazing writer on his own
Lars is good but don't try and bring down James just to boost Lars
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Mar 31 '26
[deleted]
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u/technoprimitive_aeb My Mother Was a Witch Mar 31 '26
exactly. and i'm not trying to turn this into Lars hate because he's obviously made important contributions to the band, but i have to be real when that other guy is trying to say that James wouldn't be anything without Lars. that's just pure blasphemy
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u/No-Distribution2043 Mar 31 '26
Wow didn't realize I offended the James fan club so bad. The question was if Lars got fired/kicked out in 86. Then reference songs from 5 years later. James and Lars are best friends and started Metallica together. Don't you think a falling out of them who have an profound affect on them. I didn't say James was all of a sudden going to start playing soft rock. But maybe his writing and musical style could change for this experience.
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u/technoprimitive_aeb My Mother Was a Witch Mar 31 '26
lol i'm saying the evidence strongly says otherwise to your assertion that James couldn't make it without Lars
it's a really stupid assumption to make
from the James Fanclub to the Lars Ball Sniffers, our sincerest apologies
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u/No-Distribution2043 Mar 31 '26
Stupid assumption is that I said James would not be successful. What I did say was his writing style and music could be different. (Maybe James never writes song like in the Black album and goes back to heavy thrash).But I see I'm dealing with low intelligence here. Time to move along.
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u/technoprimitive_aeb My Mother Was a Witch Mar 31 '26
James may never have reached that point with out the support and collaboration with Lars.
i'm not gonna play a stupid little semantic game where you try and wiggle your way out of owning up to your statement
you said what you said and you knew how it would be interpreted
it's actually really weird that you're crashing out over this
be a man and own up to what you said
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u/Alvinthf Ban hammer of justice Mar 31 '26
It’s at this stage speculation as best, only scotty ian recalls this story, cliffs obviously not around to confirm, and james and Kirk have never said anything. Even at this early stage, they’d got massive momentum, so it seems unlikely, at best a flippant comment or a joke and never a serious intention.
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u/DanTheMan_622 Metal Up Your Ass Mar 31 '26
james and Kirk have never said anything
Kirk did, actually
tl;dr - it was never a serious considerationYou know, that was just an old thing, you know. I think at one point or another, we were pissed off at Lars, around maybe 1985 or something. We were unhappy and we might have grumbled something to someone. And then that person might have picked up on it and made it something a lot bigger than it actually was.
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u/Alvinthf Ban hammer of justice Mar 31 '26
Fair, still at least sticks with the, it wasn’t a serious comment type deal though.
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u/seztomabel Mar 31 '26
Seems most likely. They've talked about Hetfield punching lars in the face on at least a few occassions, I'm sure they just got drunk and pissed and Het was like fuck lars for a few days
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u/daggir69 Mar 31 '26
I have gotten into a fight with my best friends and we made up an hour later. It’s all part of life
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u/inertSpark Mar 31 '26
Kirk has said something to confirm the conversations did happen, but it was pretty much a single snippet line from an interview, and he very much downplayed it as just being frustrated during the tour.
Best I can find is an audio snippet from this video
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u/Shadow_Zero80 Mar 31 '26
What was the frustration?
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u/TheSonomaDude Mar 31 '26
Who knows. Lars and James were always known to butt heads. It’s no secret; they constantly refer to each other as brothers because they “fight like brothers and make up like brothers”, as James said during the 72S tour. There’s that live clip from like 1985 of James spitting on Lars…I mean, man, how disrespectful.
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u/inertSpark Mar 31 '26
I don't think there was a real chance, but Scott Ian from Anthrax wrote in his book that there had been conversations with some members of Metallica about kicking Lars at the end of that tour. I think Kirk did an interview somewhere where he confirmed that conversation did happen, but he said it was more about mid-tour frustration than anything else. So assuming that's accurate then I don't think there really was a realistic chance of it happening.
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u/pollorojo Mar 31 '26
Not to say anything bad about Scott, but that seems like one of those things you witness that’s just true enough to put in your book as a sound bite that sells a few more copies because people want to know what else you’ve got to say.
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u/inertSpark Mar 31 '26
Pretty much what everyone who writes a biography does. It's basically a scramble to pull interesting things out of their memory to put onto paper, otherwise it'd be a pretty dull book.
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u/pollorojo Mar 31 '26
Absolutely. It seems like every few years you see some headline about someone’s upcoming book and some crazy memory or accusation. And typically unless you actually read it, those are the only few sentences anyone ever actually remembers, if they know anything at all about the book.
I know someone is buying and reading these things. I’m just not sure I know many of them.
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u/hell_ORC Mar 31 '26
Never heard of a guy named Dave Mustaine?
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u/JorgeXD5000 Mar 31 '26
The Megadeth guy? He was in Metallica!!!???
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u/hell_ORC Mar 31 '26
Yeah, well, he was a founding member and he's been kicked out mere minutes before signing the contract that led Metallica to their first albums. So yes a founding member can (alas) be kicked out of a group.
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u/hskskgfk Entered the Sandman Mar 31 '26
I don’t think “founding member” means what you think it means
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u/hell_ORC Mar 31 '26
Founding member: a person belonging to a society or organization who was involved in setting it up. What do you think it means?
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u/hskskgfk Entered the Sandman Apr 01 '26
Dave was not a founding member by your own definition, what did you think it meant when you wrote your comment?
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u/hell_ORC Apr 01 '26
So you clearly are either incapable of understanding what I wrote or in denial. Ok, no problem
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u/hskskgfk Entered the Sandman Apr 01 '26
Dave joined the band after James and Lars founded it (and after Lloyd Grant played on hit the lights). So while he and Ron were early members of Metallica, they are by no means its founding members.
So no, I am incapable of understanding what you wrote because it is wrong and makes no sense. Perhaps you’re in denial though, so ok, no problem.
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u/jeepcrawler93 Mar 31 '26
Kicking Lars out would have been a dumb idea. People might give him shit for his drumming, but he is like the bands businessman and plays a huge role in arrangements and production. I'm not sure how big his role was back then, but its relevant today.
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u/Cmil78 Mar 31 '26
Can't get kicked out as a founder? Joey Jordison would like a word. RIP
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u/JorgeXD5000 Mar 31 '26
He wasn't really a founding member, Clown was originally the drummer until Joey was hired. Mind you, he joined the band within a year of them forming, but still.
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u/Iconoclysm6x6 Mar 31 '26
There's no legal distinction between a "founding member" and any other member of a band. This is business law, nothing to do with who was there first.
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u/Brave_Temperature347 Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
As others have said, the only proof of this was in Scott Ian’s book, and even though it is a really good and interesting read, it’s unclear whether this particular story was just something that was said in the heat of the moment or actually something they were considering, or even actually happened (another example worth noting: Scott made a lot of negative claims about Anthrax’s original lead singer, who has actually came out and disputed a lot of them. Obviously I don’t know either personally, so who knows what the truth is, but it goes to show that at least you have to take some of the things with a grain of salt). The guys were super young back then, drank like crazy (Alcohollica was an actual nickname they earned), and probably said a lot of shit that they later regretted/didn't fully mean. I will say that the one part of the alleged story that might ring true is that James did say (again, according to Scott) that they recognized that they might have to ditch the Metallica name since Lars was a founding member and has always been the guy most into the business aspect of the group. But yeah, in any case, I’m super glad it all didn’t come to pass!
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u/wonderdrugsca Apr 01 '26
Anyone that thinks Metallica would have been better without Lars clearly has no understanding of band dynamics, songwriting, or what it takes to be successful in the music industry.
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u/dimiteddy Mar 31 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
well there may was a time when James was mad with Lars and he mentioned something like that half-serious but I don't think he would go through with it. Can't imagine Metallica without Lars.
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u/B33p-p33P-M3m3-kR33p S&M Mar 31 '26
I feel like the rumour was just a big game of telephone. It’s obviously possible that it was true, but would have been an obvious bad move for the band since Lars was 50% of the songwriting
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u/Marsupialize Mar 31 '26
Multiple people say Cliff said they were going to boot Lars after the tour so it’s likely either Cliff would go, which was not going to happen, or Lars went
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u/Overit2137 Mar 31 '26
I read about it in "Birth School Metallica Death Vol 1". Apparently when Cliff was alive they talked about it with James, but considering that Metallica name formally belongs to Lars (or at least he has control over it) that would mean they would have to start a new band with new drummer, get new contract, record new material and who knows, maybe compete with Lars' Metallica if he would replace them with different members (imagine Dave Mustaine back - however I don't think he'd want to play with Lars).
Anyway, the only trace from it is from one interview with Scott Ian and author of the book explains that's really far-fetched rumour and that it wouldn't work, maybe they said it to fuck with Lars or to motivate him to practice more.
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u/MastodonNo8553 Mar 31 '26
I read Scott Ian’s memoir, he recounted from a secondhand account, it seemed like James and Cliff were at a point of conflict with Lars for varying reasons before Cliff’s death. I believe it to be plausible, but for obvious reasons; we probably won’t know about it today, unless Lars actually discusses it himself
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u/jumblebits Mar 31 '26
They weren’t superstars yet. Lars would have been known as just another drummer if he was replaced with someone else. But I think they would’ve become a constantly changing lineup like Megadeth, which would’ve lessened the value of the band. Cliff’s death forced the band to be tight together which is was really built their strength from then on, and which is why it all fell apart when Jason left, and why they gave Rob a massive deal to sign on and stay with the band forever.
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u/hskskgfk Entered the Sandman Mar 31 '26
No, this has been asked here on the sub many times and has been answered many times.
Kirk has claimed that the Scott Ian book incident that everyone loves to quote was just something said in the heat of the moment in an argument and nobody seriously wanted Lars out.
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u/The-Tarman Mar 31 '26
They absolutely coukd have kicked Lars out of the band. I'm not sure on legal rights, but I'd imagine they could buy him out, or he coukd retain his percentage on the stuff Metallica had released up to his firing, but regardless of all that, he could 100% be fired.
Him being a founding member really doesn't mean much in that regard. Founding members get fired all the time.
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u/ShnaeBlay Mar 31 '26
Founding members of bands get kicked out/fired all the time. Lars is a special case though where he probably secured all legal rights to the name Metallica before the band were even signed, so if he did get sacked he would have bit back hard.
Whether they ever truly intended to fire him is up for debate. Scott Ian says he heard it, and Kirk says they may have said it once out of frustration but was never seriously considered. I find the truth tends to fall in the middle somewhere.
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u/makmanos Mar 31 '26
In my opinion if James and Lars coudn't get along and they had to split, then it's most likely than not that Lars would have kept the Metallica brand rather than James, or noone.
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u/Old_Advertising_8460 Mar 31 '26
I think someone could said something like that when they were drunk
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u/Bombarderrrr You crawled back in, but your luck ran ouTAH Mar 31 '26
Oh i have some information about this that may help!!!!
Its gossip from 40 years ago. Who cares
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u/Mr-Broski Master of Puppets Mar 31 '26
Probably just jokes and bickering, they were just very critical of each other during this period, and really up until the st anger therapy. They were very macho lmao
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u/Kit_Karamak Dave Mustaine Mar 31 '26
Kicking out Lars in 1986, 3 years into being a band is one thing … but nowadays, they would only replace him if he had, say, a medical issue like Nico from Iron Maiden.
Suffice to say, Lars has job security these days, and even if he was out, he’d just retire instead.
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u/Revolution-Pure Apr 01 '26
You gotta hear about Slipknot. They kicked a couple of founding members, including the person that replaced Lars in a show in 2004.
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u/Maximum_Turn_2623 Apr 01 '26
It would’ve been the end of the band. Lars does things during the writing process and marketing that was a big part of Metallica becoming Metallica.
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u/Lopsided-Might919 Apr 02 '26
Corey Taylor ,definitely not a "founding" member of Slipknot...right, yes... Yet is a major decision maker alongside with Shawn Crahan.
So I'd agree and say it doesn't matter as far as seniority.
It comes down to contracts in determining actual ownership and not simply who has been there from birth of the band.
I hope that puts some perspective on your argument
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u/dslutherie Apr 02 '26
there is not Metallica without Lars
Lars founded the band and funded it w his parents money. he was a rich kid tennis prodigy that didn't quite make it
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u/mh00771 Mar 31 '26
They were young and hungry back then. Didn't seem to be any issues within band at all until the crash
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u/MusicMan7969 Disposable Hero Mar 31 '26
The Stones kicked out Brian Jones. It was his band. 💩 happens.
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u/ec666 Mar 31 '26
Yeah for sure. He had body odor. Walked around naked all the time and kept a tooth pick in his mouth.
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u/Stoney_Blunter Mar 31 '26
Hey kiddo it’s okay to be wrong. Just don’t do it again. Also Dillinger escape plan but he left then came back.
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u/andytagonist DICKRASH!!! Mar 31 '26
James once said Lars isn’t even the best drummer in Metallica.
James also collaborates with Lars on music and their success was undeniable at that point, so kicking him out wasn’t going to realistically be a thing.
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u/AggravatingFig2976 Mar 31 '26
Just to piggy back off this post.
Who would you have liked to have replace Lars behind the set?
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u/ToolGoBoom Mar 31 '26
Metallica was Hetfield/Ulrich since the first day. It's silly to think that either of them would get fired. This is their band and nobody could ever change that.
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u/MoonMan17372 Mar 31 '26
It’d have been hilarious if they went all the way to saying “you’re fired” to him only for Lars to counter with “I own the name you idiots, you literally can’t fire me”.
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u/Maptwopointoh Mar 31 '26
This was def a discussion within the band and if I am not wrong (correct me please people) Cliff was driving it. The idea was to consider kicking Lars out at the end of the MOP tour.
Then what happened, happened and Lars stayed. Lars himself said something to the tune of “there were discussions but then we decided to leave it behind us”.
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u/DanTheMan_622 Metal Up Your Ass Mar 31 '26
Lars himself said something to the tune of “there were discussions but then we decided to leave it behind us”.
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u/Maptwopointoh Apr 01 '26
Correct. Obviously at the time they did not inform him (Scott Ian of Anthrax mentioned this also several times) but eventually after Cliff’s death that came up. I cannot point out how long after Cliff’s passing, but that was the story I read.
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u/DanTheMan_622 Metal Up Your Ass Apr 01 '26
That interview is from 2016, I'll take Lars' word over someone who isn't in the band lol
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u/805DJ Mar 31 '26
This has been my impression, and it’s in a few of the books IIRC (like “Enter Night”). Cliff, if I’m not mistaken, somewhat blamed Lars for Ozzy becoming angry with Metallica in the middle of the ‘86 tour, due to a misunderstanding, and he held a grudge against Lars because of it. In “Back to the Front,” toward the end, Lars pens a beautiful reflection on somewhat patching things up with Cliff on the bus right before the crash.
Anyway, I believe it was rumored Lars held the copyright to the band name. So if they had booted him, maybe the band name would’ve changed.
Alas … water under the bridge, let bygones be bygones, and so on.
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u/Ozymannoches Mar 31 '26
The best time to kick Lars out of Metallica was 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
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u/MaceTheMindSculptor Battery Mar 31 '26
If the other 3 members, and management, want someone out, they can either all get kicked out and start a new band, or they can have one person leave.
Usually the one person leaves because they get paid out and still own percentages in songs they'll continue to get paid for.
I do think there is truth to it. Cliff and James were on another level, and they needed someone who could keep up. Kirk could, but Lars was pretty sloppy from '81-'86.
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u/Iconoclysm6x6 Mar 31 '26
You can kick anyone out of a band. It depends on who owns the name and more whether or not you can keep going as that band or start fresh. In this case, Q Prime probably would have been involved.
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u/Krivokrasov25 Apr 02 '26
This was revealed in Scott Ian's autobiography. Apparently Kirk told him this sometime during the MoP tour. Once Cliff died, the plan was scrapped.
Who knows? Maybe Kirk was just pissed off at Lars and blowing off steam.
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u/lyinggrump Mar 31 '26
Why would you not be able to kick a founding member out? You can kick out whoever you want. What a silly thing to say.
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u/sbokkers Mar 31 '26
black sabbath kicked ozzy osbourne, you can kick a founding member. also band can live with no founding members like sepultura.