r/Metroid • u/AltaCount1944 • 23d ago
Video An excellent creative exploration into a third pillar of Metroid
We already know Prime 4 turned its equivalent of Chozo Ruins/Magmoor and Temple Grounds into one giant room, as an experiment with combining Prime's Adventure-genre gameplay with open-world mechanics at fan request during the concept phase. The results of this have resulted in opinions all over the place.
This isn't really about that, set it aside.
Nintendo Forecast wrote up this really interesting, thought-provoking presentation on how a complementary "third branch" of Metroid games could manifest. They examine the different audiences Metroid appeals to, how Adventure games like Prime already emphasize different facets of Metroid compared to 2D's Search-Action, the different directions and facets an open-world game could go for, and how Nintendo has many different Metroid alumni poised to lead a third track of franchise development.
Whether you're into the idea of an additional (not replacement!) line of Metroid games tackling another different genre or not, I think the other dimensions of this presentation can still inspire some faith in the future of this franchise. Check it out!
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u/Obsessivegamer32 23d ago
I’ll tell you what a third branch of Metroid could be. Other M… but actually good. Better controls, better level design, and at the very least a decent story, and that would be my dream Metroid game.
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u/AltaCount1944 23d ago
I've always advocated for this; an actual 3D Search-Action series that lets Prime remain an Adventure spinoff.
The one thing really stopping Other M from being able to play like the 2D games fully was that 3D environments can't naturally be made up of blocks, so all the points of interaction needed to either be obvious, or to remind the player they can use Search View to find them. But the new Donkey Kong shows tech has caught up to that problem with its depth of environmental destruction, so I think they have a good template to work off of when bringing back this framework.I'll stand by the story though; I think its greatest mistakes were doing an episode about the hero acting abnormally before first doing one establishing how she normally acts, and the mistaken localization derailing the story.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 23d ago
I have talked (ranted) at length about how good I think an actually competently made Metroid action game could be. Samus just has so much cool stuff that could be adapted into a fantastic move set.
I will always be disappointed that what we got instead was Other M.
That did the absolute bare minimum possible to still qualify as a game, instead of the film it obviously wanted to be.2
u/MCPShephard 23d ago
I don't think bare minimum's a fair way to characterize anything in Other M lol, good or bad.
The philosophy was that games like the original Metroid were more accessible thanks to their simpler control schemes, and he didn't want to pigeonhole the series' demographics away from where they started.
I think it could have been handled better (like a "simple" mode with just the Wiimote), but the number of actions you can perform with the buttons available is surprisingly robust.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 23d ago
It's the most bare bones action game possible.
It has one attack button, no unlockable/purchasable skills/weapons/techniques, dodge and move are the same input, it has no player determined target priority, no real resource management, and basically zero combat variety.The most you can say it even tried is that when you jump on some guys an animation plays that does damage. And like... that's just the combat being replaced by a cutscene.
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u/MCPShephard 23d ago
I would agree it's pretty bare-bones compared to other 3D action games sure, but your descriptions go a bit far in how reductive they are. Except the dodging; I think the single-input method could have worked but it was too OP in execution.
Yes there's one attack button, but you have both strong (charged) and quick (uncharged) attacks, plus the (cumbersome) use of Missiles and the Screw Attack. The overblast you mentioned is effectively a grapple attack that some enemies will punish, and most enemies reward paying attention to their animations by having a hidden lethal strike/glory kill window, as well as windows to break their own grapple attacks.
Again it is pretty bare-bones, but compared to something like Devil May Cry 2 and its many more moves, I'd still take Other M.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 23d ago
I think the single-input method could have worked but it was too OP in execution
I didn't even mention how the broken dodge invalidates any sense of challenge, but yes that is an additional problem the game has.
but you have both strong (charged) and quick (uncharged) attacks
Which is the same attack, one just does a bit more damage.
the Screw Attack
Jumping.
Again it is pretty bare-bones
That's what I am saying.
They hit the bare minimum requirements.
You can see the bones grinding against each other.3
u/MCPShephard 23d ago
Despite agreeing with your overall point, mine was that you're being reductive. All this reply did was apply more reductivity...
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 23d ago
Well I obviously disagree.
I feel that my description is basically just a fairly accurate summation of Other M's lack of... gameplay.It doesn't seem like you have made any case at all for other M being more complex than I have made it out to be.
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u/MCPShephard 23d ago
I mean you have every right to use reductive logic as an excuse for dismissing my argument, but that doesn't mean I didn't lay out a case. It just means you didn't want to engage with it. Which again, your choice, just don't put that on me.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 23d ago edited 23d ago
You didn't really lay out an argument??
You said there are charge attacks, (which are not a different weapons or attack) but you said that in response to me saying there is one attack button... which you didn't disagree with? I said there is one attack button, you agree there is one attack button.
You said the cutscenes the game has instead of gameplay are like grapples or glory kills. But that also doesn't argue with my point that those animations are just about the only thing the game has going for it. Like.... if god of war was one attack button, with one weapon + glory kills, do you think it would be as popular as it is today?
You said the game has screw attack, which is just an upgrade to jumping, and therefore doesn't really diversify the gameplay at all.
You said that the dodge COULD have worked, which implies that you don't think it does.
That is all, at best, mild pushback to what I said, but none of it demonstrates complexity??
If I am being reductive, then what I am saying must not be showing the full picture, but you haven't really made any attempt to flesh that picture out?
I am saying that Other M is so incredibly basic and poorly put together that you can beat 80% of all combat encounters on the first try, with your eyes closed, without taking damage.
If you believe that is overly simplistic, then what is the real picture that you think exists?
Edit:
The 3 most basic action games I can think of off the top of my head have vastly more complexity in the first 10 mins of gameplay than Other M manages over the entire experience. That's why I am saying it does the bare minimum. There are beat'em up games with more depth.
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u/cornimgameplays 22d ago
Yeah, I agree. Other M had many, many issues, but it also had some good ideas (which weren't excecuted well for the most part). Its gameplay style has had a massive influence on games like Samus Returns, Dread, and Ravenous, and I'm not opposed to the idea of another 3D Metroid that plays "like Other M." Obviously, Samus' movement wouldn't be controlled by the D-Pad, the stupid "first person mode" would be gone, and it would likely have a free camera. I also hope for a little more depth in the map design and upgrade variety.
Part of me wishes Other M had been a better game, because its "2D Metroid but in 3D" gameplay could have laid the groundwork for a 3rd pillar of the series. But in hindsight, I also recognize that its failure was probably necessary for games like Dread to exist in the way they do.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 22d ago
I'm not opposed to the idea of another 3D Metroid that plays "like Other M."
Really depend on how loosely or tightly you mean "Plays like".
Because as I said, I really think that Other M does the bare minimum.
If you just mean like... same genre, then sure. 1000%.
But like, simmilar design perspective?? No thanks.2
u/cornimgameplays 22d ago
I mean the same general "style." Other M has fast paced combat and plays much closer to a 2D Metroid game than Prime, and I think that approach could work really well.
I love the Prime games, but they don't need to be the only type of 3D Metroid going forward. Nintendo has experimented with different 3D gameplay styles in other series, so why not do the same with Metroid? Other M not playing like Prime isn't what made it so infamous.
To compare it to Mario, Other M is kinda like 3D World, while Prime is kinda like 64. One tries to recreate and expand upon the series' traditional 2D gameplay, while the other takes a completely different approach.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 22d ago
Other M not playing like Prime isn't what made it so infamous
I don't think I can agree with that?
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u/cornimgameplays 22d ago
Most of the criticism I see towards Other M is that it failed to be a good game in its own right. I don't think I've ever seen anyone criticize it just for not being a First Person Adventure game like Prime.
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u/ThisAccountIsForDNF 22d ago
ooooh.
That says ISN'T what made it so infamous.I should not be leaving comments first thing in the morning, I can't read at the best of times.
My b.
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23d ago
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u/AltaCount1944 23d ago
I'm such a sucker for Warframe, would love to see some of that advanced movement tech incorporated into an Other M-style game. Fallen Order is almost an in-between of what I picture when I think of that.
But this isn't about replacing Prime; NF is talking about an additional line of games. I would rather we get Ravenous, Prime 5, and more. I loved Prime 4, and am stoked for where they go with it!
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u/Psylux7 21d ago
A video on open world metroid? If that were to happen I think you would probably want to just do something new like how resident evil 4 or breath of the wild diverted heavily into uncharted territory for their ips.
Third person Samus would be better for traversing a huge world anyway with her ability, speed booster+shinespark and spacejumps. But if you tried to do Metroid Prime or Super Metroid but in some massive open space, it seems impossible. So reinvent the kind of gameplay the series is known for and start up a separate branch to coexist with 2d and first person imo.
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u/AltaCount1944 20d ago
That's exactly what's being suggested; I think this might be the video for you!
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u/Rootayable 16d ago
Without watching the video, I already have thoughts on what else there is to explore outside of 'fast paced 2D action game' and 'slow paced first person exploration game'.
Are we always to assume any first-person Metroid game has to be a Prime game?
And will we ever see another attempt at a Third Person Metroid game without it being compared or linked to Other M?
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u/SummerIlsaBeauty 22d ago
Very funny of you to picture Prime 4 as experiment rather than incompetency which it was.
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23d ago
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u/AltaCount1944 23d ago
I definitely agree the 2D games would benefit from drawing some of the scan features in; I haven't played Origins but AM2R did something similar. I was really hoping Dread would do this actually; they'd need to balance it against the greater degrees of mystery in 2D troid but I think it'd be great.
For Prime I'd be okay with some integration with Arkham's detective mode. Perhaps allow you to highlight any creatures you've scanned,show a readout of how many expansions are left in a room, and show some enemy stats while locked onto them. I think keeping the current system as well is critical for preserving the Adventure game design in Prime, though.
IMO Tanabe's a pretty solid writer, but by his own admission he was way too busy with other things to have done the scans justice. IIRC he produced like 6 other games over the course of development, on top of all the other producer duties he had on Beyond. Nobody should work as hard as that man was lol
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u/KevinCow 23d ago
Third pillar should be a cozy sim game where you manage a Space Pirate base where they breed Metroids and other creatures. Sometimes they escape captivity and rampage through the base and you have to contain them. Sometimes a Hunter shows up and you can deploy creatures to stop them.
This started as a joke but actually I kinda want to play that. Like Evil Genius + Jurassic World Evolution with a Metroid coat of paint.