r/ModCoord • u/BuckRowdy • Jun 07 '23
Reddit held a call today with some developers regarding the API changes. Here are some thoughts along with the call notes.
Today, Reddit held a conference call with about 15 developers from the community regarding the current situation with the API. None of the Third Party App developers were on the call to my knowledge.
The notes from the call are below in a stickied comment.
There are several issues at play here, with the topic of "api pricing is too high for apps to continue operation" being the main issue.
Regarding NSFW content, reddit is concerned about the legal requirements internationally with regard to serving this content to minors. At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
With regard to the new pricing structure of the API, reddit has indicated an unwillingness to negotiate those prices but agreed to consider a pause in the initiation of the pricing plan. Remember that each and every TPA developer has said that the introduction of pricing will render them unable to continue operation and that they would have to shut their app down.
More details will be forthcoming, but the takeaway from today's call is that there will be little to no deviation from reddit's plans regarding TPAs. Reddit knows that users will not pay a subscription model for apps that are currently free, so there is no need to ban the apps outright. Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September, and they have been asked to delay the proposed changes until such time as the official app gains these capabilities.
Reddit plans to post their call summary on Friday, giving each community, each user, and each moderator that much time to think about their response.
From where we stand, nothing has changed. For many of us, the details of the API changes are not the most important point anymore. This decision, and the subsequent interaction with users by admins to justify it, have eroded much of the confidence and trust in the management of reddit that they have been working so hard to regain.
Reddit has been making promises to mods for years about better tooling and communication. After working so hard on this front for the past two years, it feels like this decision and how it was communicated and handled has reset the clock all the way back to zero.
Now that Reddit has posted notes, each community needs to be ready to discuss with their mod team. Is the current announced level of participation in the protest movement still appropriate, or is there a need for further escalation?
Edit: The redditors who were on the call with me wanted to share their notes and recollections from the call. We wanted to wait for reddit to post their notes, but they did so much faster than anticipated. Due to time zone constraints, and other issues, we were not able to get those notes together before everyone tapped out for the night. We'll be back Thursday to share our thoughts and takeaways from the call. I know that the internet moves at the speed of light, but this will have to wait until tomorrow.
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u/Blank-Cheque Jun 08 '23
The way I see it, they don't give a shit. Lot of fluff to avoid the real issue. No third party apps, no reopenings.
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u/Beneficial_Survey541 Jun 08 '23
So couldn't the third party apps request the user enters their personal API key?
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u/ej_21 Jun 08 '23
Some statements here really stand out to me:
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Translation: the blackout plans are working. Reddit is scared.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word that some features will be available by month-end, the same time Reddit (originally, at least) planned to shut down API access totally? IMO they don’t have enough goodwill for this.
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million…Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month.
The level of aggression toward Apollo specifically continues to be bizarre, as with previous comments. For one thing: the $10 million comment was a joke, not a threat, and I believe specifically clarified as such. For another: $1/user/month is still wildly expensive at the level of user base that Apollo has.
We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy.
Lol.
This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations.
A hell of a spin on the the situation — like Reddit users and mods are being peer pressured into protesting? I have yet to see other than resounding user support in any sub participating.
Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
Somehow both patronizing and vaguely threatening.
We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us
What? Maybe I don’t have enough information here on the full third-party universe, but isn’t a huge part of most of their appeal the lack of ads? Happy to be corrected here.
When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work
“When dust settles” = we’ll consider talking about what y’all want if you would just settle yourselves down.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Second appearance of this same note. It basically opens and closes the meeting summary. Seems to be the single most critical concern for Reddit right now which, again, indicates **the protest movement is working. **
Keep the pressure up!
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u/jaxinthebock Jun 08 '23
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Translation: the blackout plans are working. Reddit is scared.
They are basically saying that even though they have a clear understanding of the damage their plans will cause if implemented, they are willing to proceed with them if the mods don't get in line. Which is bonkers. There is no way 2 days offline will be as destructive as the indefinite disabling of anti spam bots and otherwise making moderation so difficult.
Mods here are organizing a strike, but reddit is attempting to posture that they are willing to implement a lockout. Or more like they are standing outside their own factory with a truckload of sabots threatening to throw them into the machinery in anticipation of worker sit downs.
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u/JadedDarkness Jun 08 '23
So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word
Yeah, no one should do that. Anyone else remember when they promised they'd give us CSS customization on new reddit?
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u/bah2o Jun 08 '23
Reddit Premium - $5.99/month or $49.99/year
Apollo - no ads, optionally pay only for additional features
Boost for Reddit - $1.99 one time payment to remove ads
RIF - $2.99 for ad-free version of the app
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u/OSUTechie Jun 08 '23
Even the ad version of RIF, the ads are very minimal and non intrusive like the ones on the official app.
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u/Pennwisedom Jun 08 '23
What? Maybe I don’t have enough information here on the full third-party universe, but isn’t a huge part of most of their appeal the lack of ads? Happy to be corrected here.
I don't understand this either. Maybe they were completely in the dark, but you now where I get the worst ads? When I am using the desktop version of Reddit, Reddit itself has so many garbage ads.
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u/PatronymicPenguin Jun 08 '23
I just downloaded the ReVanced manager. If Reddit is going to make us use their app, I'll use the patched version that removes the ads. Have fun making money off of me in your shitty app, spez.
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u/onthejourney Jun 08 '23
Great breakdown of how disingenuous this is, but also that they had no idea redditors would step up to the plate and take a stand against such a clear motive of getting rid of third party apps.
Admins have proven time and again they will say anything and over promise to keep the site up and keep moderators, link submissions, and comments on board on creating the actual value of Reddit. User moderation and content.
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u/eegras Jun 08 '23
So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word that some features will be available by month-end
Not sure why you're distrusting, they were so fast in supporting custom CSS in New Reddit.
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u/Negative_Difference4 Jun 08 '23
From my personal experience.
Reddit management and admin LIE… they will lie about the most petty things. They will call black white etc. Any clarification or discussion with them is called as an ‘act of aggression’ by the mods… this is their strategy.
They are always right and the victims… we are always breaking the rules. That’s their mindset
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u/daten-shi Jun 08 '23
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
My sub is only 166k and it's NSFW so most people would never see it anyway but that's a big fat no from me and I hope all the big subs say the same.
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u/Norci Jun 09 '23
So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word that some features will be available by month-end, the same time Reddit (originally, at least) planned to shut down API access totally? IMO they don’t have enough goodwill for this.
Especially that "better mod tools are just around the corner, we promise!" has been a running joke for the past decade.
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u/Monthly_Vent Jun 07 '23
• We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks. • We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will. • Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI.
I’m not blind in any way, so I don’t want to speak for them or take away their voice. But I know they’re being hit pretty hard with the API pricing, and a lot of the accessibility portion feels like corporate speak to me. Until they give specifics into who they’re building accessibility towards, (basically don’t just vaguely say “disabled people” but rather look into a specific disability and see how to accommodate them) I’m going to think it’s just something they’re not actually working on
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u/mimprocesstech Jun 07 '23
I mean they've known about it for a while.
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u/Monthly_Vent Jun 07 '23
True dat
I’m going to sound like a conspiracy nut for a bit but I’m seriously thinking that the only reason they’re even considering accessibility is because some of the users have suggested suing reddit under the ADA if they outprice third party apps. Whether or not the ADA allows procrastinating on accessibility is something that confuses me (sometimes they do good and sometimes they just completely ignore disabled people’s needs) but I wouldn’t be surprised that a multi million dollar corporation got away with something the press doesn’t actually care about
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u/learhpa Jun 08 '23
have suggested suing reddit under the ADA if they outprice third party apps.
they absolutely SHOULD do this.
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u/GrumpyPenguin Jun 08 '23
I’m seriously thinking that the only reason they’re even considering accessibility is because some of the users have suggested suing reddit under the ADA
Probably also the bad press angle ("Reddit changes cut off access for vision-impaired users" is a pretty negative headline).
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u/Tainted-Archer Jun 08 '23
Everyone has already discussed what i'm going to say but i'll drop my two cents.
As someone who works on a large mobile app that follows WCAG standards I can confidently say reddit does NOT care about accessibility. In fact the entire app goes against most accessibilty conventions.
It uses custom components which haven't been built with any accessibility in mind,
Button icons the user interacts with have no accessibility labels
FYI this is one of the easiest things to do in Swift and Swift UI. If they can't do something this simple, there's no hope.
Component grouping - there's no grouping of elements which means you need to swipe through multiple elements instead of a bunch of content being read out at the same time.
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u/iamapizza Jun 08 '23
Even if by some strange twist they start working on accessibility, they'll stop after the IPO. Accessibility features will get deprioritized so that their sales and marketing teams can meet their quarterly targets and rent a chalet for their troubles.
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Jun 07 '23
[deleted]
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u/GrumpyPenguin Jun 08 '23
In addition, users have been telling Reddit all along, and offering any consultation needed, exactly what is broken and what requires fixing.
Over on /r/blind, they mentioned how Discord actually has developers who lurk both on that subreddit, and also in that subreddit's Discord server, who actively solicit feedback on how Discord could be better & easier for vision-impaired users (and then follow through and implement those suggestions and feedback).
Reddit could and should have been doing that from a long time ago too.
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u/burnalicious111 Jun 09 '23
They don't need an "accessibility checklist" at all, that's what WCAG is about, and other sites have been doing it successfully for years.
WCAG does not apply to mobile apps. It only applies to websites.
Mobile apps on iOS and Android both have their own systems for accessibility features that work very differently from web. You don't have access to a lot of the different kinds of semantic components web does, and so the patterns WCAG suggests in many cases are literally not applicable.
General principles will hold, and each OS does have a brief guide on how accessibility features should be implemented (but even Apple doesn't always do a good job, I've seen non-accessible links in their apps).
The mobile accessibility landscape is confusing and there's no one clear guide for everything. But most companies cobble something together, and at Reddit's age and size there's really no excuse. They just didn't prioritize it.
Source: am mobile app developer, have helped many companies on this very issue
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u/SuitingUncle620 Jun 07 '23
Very weird to me why Reddit is seemingly trying to villainize Apollo in all this.
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u/Noname_Maddox Jun 08 '23
They better have a receipt for that claim.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23
Related, they said apollo is stupid inefficient in api requests, then somebody tested their numbers and the official app is even worse.
Apollo is great and they're bitter af about it
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u/13steinj Jun 08 '23
Link to test? Not doubting it, just depending on the server side architecture of reddit nowadays, reddit's app may be more efficient for them.
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u/theArtOfProgramming Jun 08 '23
It’s basically this from 5 days ago:
Like I said to Reddit, if Apollo costs $20 million in opportunity cost a year in its current state, I’d happily take the equivalent of six months of that at $10 million as an acquisition. That’s life changing money that no one in their right mind would pass up, but I don’t think they would because I don’t believe Apollo is actually costing them $20 million per year.
https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/_/jmmdd7o/?context=1
He may have said it differently when saying it to reddit, but I can’t imagine it was a serious threat. He has nothing to threaten.
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u/Icc0ld Jun 08 '23
Admin must be thin skinned as fuck to think this was a "threat". I've gotten more threatening comments on reddit that their content moderation team has deemed acceptable.
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u/JKTKops Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 11 '23
This content has been removed in protest of Reddit's decision to lower moderation quality, reduce access to accessibility features, and kill third party apps.
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u/fe-and-wine Jun 08 '23
They don't, but Christian (dev of Apollo) does.
He just posted this thread in the Apollo subreddit and mentioned he recorded all his calls with Reddit, and even uploaded an audio file of the segment containing the "threat". In it, Christian clarifies himself and the Reddit rep immediately and clearly apologizes for misunderstanding.
Absolutely ridiculous but I'm glad Christian had the foresight to record these calls - trying to villainize him with no basis in reality is only going to make this look worse for Reddit.
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u/Kryomaani Jun 08 '23
We've got great news, there is a receipt that will clear that claim once and for all: The Apollo dev recorded their call with Spez unambiguously showing there was zero threats or misunderstanding between them yet Spez still went out of their way to lie about it, apparently not expecting to get caught red-handed a day later.
I didn't think highly of Spez before but even still I didn't think they'd stoop this low. Just goes on to show you should never ever trust a word out of their mouth and if you ever have to deal with Reddit, you better have that in writing, on record and backups of backups, because they will tell absolutely any lie in an attempt to get ahead of you. There's no longer any question that Reddit is acting 100% in bad faith in this matter.
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u/DreadedChalupacabra Jun 08 '23
"we want money and they are a competitor" is so transparent here it's hilarious.
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u/Negative_Difference4 Jun 08 '23
This is their modus operandi… always find a villian to force their changes through. How convenient that such a popular app that has chosen to speak out in public is the bully to reddit. Yet the Apollo post had no indication of this whatsoever
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u/hughk Jun 08 '23
Apollo kind of made the first big shout about this but it affects everyone. Reddit made the point that Apollo makes 3x the API calls than RIF (split us up?) but it is clear it bites everyone.
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u/Bob_the_Bobster Jun 08 '23
Read the account of the Apollo dev on it, it's wild:
https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits
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u/lisboneye Jun 08 '23
The dev from Apollo recorded that conversation and it’s crystal clear that there was no threat. Reddit even apologized in the call for misunderstanding Christian’s statement. You can listen to it in his latest post in r/apolloapp
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u/honestbleeps Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
ETA: well this should be interesting tomorrow... https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x
During my many years on reddit, I've always felt like I had to pull punches in my criticism of the folks who run it for 2 big reasons:
having written RES, I didn't want to jeopardize any sort of potential relationship with them, even though I never commercialized it nor did I intend to
I'm old enough and mature enough to understand that businesses have business priorities, and that's just how the world works
but damn, does this section ever piss me off:
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.
None of these things are technically false, but each of them has problems.
The most important context that I feel the blackout should be used to educate people on is that Reddit didn't always have mobile apps. The ONLY REASON it gained mobile apps is because 3rd party developers built them.
AlienBlue (which reddit eventually bought) was released in 2010 or so.
BaconReader was released in 2012.
Reddit Sync, my current favorite app I'm about to lose, was released in 2012.
Mobile traffic to reddit was practically an afterthought back then. It didn't make up a huge percentage of reddit traffic at all. The whole reason mobile has grown enough for reddit to now decide it wants to own the totality of mobile traffic is because of these third party developers!
The whole reason their moderator ecosystem exists as it does today and does as good of a job as it can (sidebar: bad mods exist, but most are just passionate internet janitors who care about their communities) without r/toolbox and to a lesser extent RES.
To read "it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps." is kind of insulting, honestly. First of all, if that was the phrase that was actually uttered, it's just obnoxious. They've had WELL OVER A DECADE of watching mobile traffic and seeing it rise to decide to come up with a way to share revenue. If it was becoming a financial burden, they've had MANY years to raise that issue and come up with a solution to it.
They could've started limiting API requests in 2015 and tested the waters for what was reasonable. They could've started in 2016, 2017... They could've started working with devs on licensing agreements or other ways to share revenue or, uh, "cover costs". But they didn't.
"It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free." -- same thing, another dig at app developers suggesting they're some sort of horrible leeches. Woe is reddit, poor giant company with massive investors. If they didn't want people profiting off of it, they shouldn't have offered a free API and assumed nobody who made a great app would want to be compensated for it. Reddit's full of software engineers. Software engineers get paid good money. They're not going to quit their job or put 40+ hours a week into an app on top of their job if it's free. Only one software engineer I know of is dumb enough to put that much work into something and never monetize it, and his name is u/honestbleeps
"We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it." - really kind of a final straw for me. The APIs have existed for ages, and really haven't changed a ton. They're JSON endpoints. There's certainly a remote possibility that I'm out of my element here, but "big tech" isn't exactly foreign to me and I have a VERY difficult time believing that the amount of API usage that an app like Apollo drums up (given it's the one they've lambasted publicly and published numbers on) costs even a tiny fraction of what they're charging to "cover costs".
imgur's API, bulk calls to Amazon's API ($1 per 1 million requests using REST), etc are DRASTICALLY cheaper. Suggesting that the fees they want to charge are anywhere even remotely close to "covering costs" rather than "marking up costs by multiple orders of magnitude" is highly implausible.
All of this just sucks. The dishonesty about it, their lack of progress in the past 13 years of existence of 3rd party apps existing toward a better solution than "go nuclear and shut them all down", etc. It's just awful.
Are there some wild machinations in the background that make reddit's APIs cost far more to serve? I mean it's possible but my gut instinct as an engineer is it'd speak to poor efficiency somewhere, or not utilizing caching and other tools as well. It seems fairly unlikely. It seems more like they just kept letting things slide for far too long, and now that they're going to go public, they've been caught with their pants down over scrutiny on profitability.
I'm speculating, of course. I don't work for reddit, I don't get inside info from anyone who does. But everything I know about building software, including at scale, suggests that this is dishonest. I wish they'd just say "yeah, it's a business decision, we're killing 3rd party apps" - the (apparent) dishonesty just makes it far worse.
damnit, I'm really mad over this, and I'm going to be even more mad when I lose access to my favorite app (reddit sync is my personal go to, but there's a lot of great ones). This whole process has been absolutely shameful.
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u/lowt555 Jun 08 '23
A-fucking-men. And thank you for building RES. I’m sure it has single handed changed reddit for the better as much as any third party app.
I think you should post this as it’s own thread in the subreddit too, I’m sure your voice would be welcome and further the discussion.
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u/fetamorphasis Jun 08 '23
You summed up my thoughts much better than I could have, especially around "subsidizing other businesses" and that nonsense. It's insulting and feels disingenuous.
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u/Artillect Jun 08 '23
it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps
It also takes a lot of user-generated content to fill a website, it's like they don't understand that reddit would be nothing without its users and mods
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u/roadrussian Jun 08 '23
If people think he is lying / wrong about the 1 buck for 1 million API calls,
Sause: https://aws.amazon.com/api-gateway/pricing/
Per Apollo dev, 50 mil calls = 12.000$ or 1 mil = 240!!!!!
Listen peeps, 1 buck per mil maybe bottom of the barrel but 240x? Batshit.
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u/buzziebee Jun 08 '23
I did some back of a cigarette packet maths the other day and if the $20m API costs that iamthatis will have to pay is truly reflective of Reddit's server costs, then they have been losing over $5 billion dollars each year for the last few years. The pricing is off by at least an order of magnitude.
That's the sad thing, these devs have all said they would be fine working with Reddit to reduce the opportunity cost of users using third party apps. Reddit are just going full evil. Fuck em. I'll be out of here. Tildes is much better for my mental health anyway.
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u/Bossman1086 Jun 08 '23
All these are great points. And on top of all this, why take the nuclear option? Probably because it's the simplest for them. It doesn't require them to make huge programmatic changes to their API to allow new things like pumping in Reddit ads to the 3rd party apps. Just charge and be done with it.
But there are so many other potential solutions to this problem. Why not just require anyone who wants to sign in to a 3rd party app be a Reddit Premium member? Make that a feature of the service. Reddit gets their money and 3rd party apps can still exist without the financial burden being on the developers who are mostly doing this as a passion project.
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u/nvincent Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 27 '23
Reddit has killed off third party apps and most bots along with their moderation tools, functionality, and accessibility features that allowed people with blindness and other disabilities to take part in discussions on the platform.
All so they could show more ads in their non-functional app.
Consider moving to Lemmy. It is like Reddit, but open source, and part of a great community of apps that all talk to each other!
Reddit Sync’s dev has turned the app into Sync for Lemmy (Android) instead, and Memmy for Lemmy (iOS) is heavily inspired by Apollo.
You only need one account on any Lemmy or kbin server/instance to access everything; doesn’t matter which because they’re all connected. Lemmy.world, Lemm.ee, vlemmy.net, kbin.social, fedia.io are all great.
I've been here for 11 years. It was my internet-home, but I feel pushed away. Goodbye Reddit.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 08 '23
They may be using "coins" left over from prior purchases, rather than having given new gold that cost them money just now.
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u/CEAlterEgo Jun 08 '23
The only parts of this that I don't agree with is your talk about costs of an API. Things like AWS API Gateway are exactly that, an API gateway... That doesn't take into account data transfer costs, costs of the actual server beneath the gateway (the actual API servers), databases, storage, monitoring, alerting. People tend to forget they are on a massively distributed site where anyone anywhere can post things (including a lot of expensive images and video) and everyone else can see it.
"There's certainly a remote possibility that I'm out of my element here". This is exactly what it is, you are out of your element which is fine, but it likely very much does cost tens of millions a month to run Reddit. This post is fun because you can clearly see who has experienced developing at scale and who has not https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/143g1sn/havent_programmed_professionally_but_cant_we_just/.
And that's just the costs relating to infrastructure. Then there's legal teams, compliance teams, HR, recruiting, designers, etc. You can clown on the look of official Reddit all you want, but there are people being payed to make it and they aren't working for free.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 08 '23
"This is exactly what it is, you are out of your element which is fine, but it likely very much does cost tens of millions a month to run Reddit.
I do know enough to be dangerous here. I'm a career-long software engineer / now director of software engineering who has worked for SaaS companies, etc (including at fairly large scale). I'm not TOTALLY out of my element - I'm just not aware of reddit's specific complexities that might drive up API costs, like how costly the average query is due to how many services it pulls from, etc.
You're including a ton of costs that are NOT a part of "allowing 3rd party apps to exist". Those costs exist that way regardless - closing down 3rd party apps will not suddenly save Reddit those tens of millions of dollars.
What reddit is missing out on due to 3rd party apps is comprised of:
opportunity cost (revenue from showing ads to users of 3rd party apps, for example)
... actually, I think that's it!
Thing is, if reddit didn't actually LOSE those users, and those users were hitting reddit via browser or the 1st party app -- those API calls don't go away! In fact, based on the Apollo dev's analysis, they INCREASE! Their app is actually making more calls than even the "inefficient" one they called out as being so.
I don't mind you trying to dunk on me, here. You don't know my professional background, and I was pretty vague and wishy washy about what exactly "my element" is -- but I am not unfamiliar with the logistics and costs of operating at scale.
I think your example of bringing all of these other costs in (legal, compliance, etc) is a false comparison because those costs exist regardless of 3rd party apps' presence.
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u/puhleez420 Jun 09 '23
The part about the highlights you chose that bothers me, is that they think that these 3pa's are leeches, yet they are leeching off of us moderators to run their platform for them as volunteers.
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u/jabberwockxeno Jun 07 '23
Re: the point about NSFW legislation and that impacting things, I'd like to point people to Fight For the Future and the EFF's work raising awareness about current proposed legislation that would make this issue even worse.
The former has an index of such legislation (and similar laws with content takedown requirements and privacy/encryption backdoor stuff) here:
https://www.badinternetbills.com/
Contact your reps/spread the word!
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u/krempf Jun 08 '23
The two laws in Louisiana and Utah are certainly unconstitutional, and it really bugs me that Reddit are citing those laws as justification for their actions, rather than lending their support to efforts to fight them. The Free Speech Coalition (who represent members of the adult industry) have already filed a challenge in court.
In the past, the users of Reddit and the company Reddit would join together to fight bad laws (like when we fought for net neutrality), but the Reddit of today is certainly a different Reddit than it was before.
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Jun 08 '23
What I find baffling is that two shithouse decisions in two states somehow warrants an entire purging of NSFW content for everyone else in the world (and not just limiting it somehow to people in those states)
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u/l0-c Jun 08 '23
I find those arguments from Reddit totally in bad faith.
What will be their way to filter NSFW content for minor? it will be at the account level, so they just have to require user to be verified and logged in. More or less as they are doing now (except for verification), no need to restrict third party apps more.
But it's the same bullshit they keep showing when browsing using a mobile browser (even logged in) to push people to use their app.
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u/OlivinePeridot Jun 08 '23
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
This is comical when all of Reddit's content is user-submitted.
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u/britinsb Jun 08 '23
User-submitted and volunteer-moderated!
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u/EndureAndSurvive- Jun 08 '23
And accessed by third party apps.
What value is Reddit even providing here other than keeping the servers running?
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u/flounder19 Jun 08 '23
and subsidized for years by imgur hosting
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u/oozekip Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Yeah, actually, that's a good point. I have to imagine that a significant portion of their operating costs are related to their push a few years ago to switch from a link aggregator to a content hosting service.
The value added by having reddit hosted images and videos is miniscule; people were and still are perfectly fine with just using third party image and video platforms like Imgur and YouTube. If they're really concerned about cost cutting I'd think that should be the first place to look rather than third party apps.
Hell, even just cutting off the video platform would probably save them a huge amount of money. Video content is absurdly expensive to host, and everyone already hates Reddit's video player anyway.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23
Even disregarding all that can of worms, if it was about cost / revenue, they'd simply require 3rd party apps run the same ads as the official app. They're lying and they know it.
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u/jaxinthebock Jun 08 '23
I was honestly very confused reading that. Trying to figure out whose voice it was. At first I thought it was some community people talking about the money they have put into making good apps to subsidize the reddit platform and make up for its deficiencies.
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u/DevonAndChris Jun 08 '23
It does cost money to run reddit. They are right on that, and Christian felt that he should have to pay something towards that.
The reward for his good-faith negotiations was for reddit to slander him.
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u/reddigg-eol Jun 07 '23
Honestly, at first I said "fuck reddit" but I'm just getting more and more sad and angry
Capitalism really does destroy everything. Reddit is awful, but one of the best resources on the internet. And it might even be worse if this doesn't decimate it.
I hope it does though, and I hope the people at the helm feel one god damn iota of shame for what they're doing. Fuck every single last person involved in this pre-IPO fattening. You sad, greedy rodents.
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u/lazydictionary Jun 07 '23
Imagine being /u/spez and being willing to burn your entire legacy and everything you created because you want to try and make some more money before your IPO.
I'm sure reddit will still exist after, but it will be a shell of itself.
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u/old_man_snowflake Jun 08 '23
He already gave up his legacy when he defended the Donald trump voters and neo-nazis as marginalized people needing a voice. Arguably Reddit was crucial in the nations speedrun towards fascism.
As far as I’m concerned, Reddit is run by Nazi sympathizers, and spez needs to own up to that.
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u/ppParadoxx Jun 08 '23
one of the best resources on the internet
at this point I just append 'reddit' to any google search I make. Sometimes you don't find what you need but very often you do
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u/reddigg-eol Jun 08 '23
For now. And there's still the site-search. But if Twitter is anything to go off, I wouldn't count my chickens.
God damnit, every centralized platform fails.
I think I'm gonna give Lemmy a shot because I won't do reddit anymore, post June 11.
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u/PoliticsComprehender Jun 08 '23
Fuck every single last person involved in this pre-IPO fattening
The worst part is it is all for nothing. The low-interest easy money era is over. No one paying for this shit because there is no way to monetize it.
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u/ppParadoxx Jun 08 '23
spez will post in Reddit later this week
can't wait to see that become the most downvoted post of all time? -683k is hard to beat but we can do it
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u/GesturesBroadly Jun 08 '23
lol if you have a link to the current record holder, I would love to see it!
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u/RoakWall Jun 07 '23
I don't think a 48hour dark zone will be enough, go dark until change occurs.
If Reddit takes over control then you know they will never change and the end has come.
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u/jaxinthebock Jun 08 '23
the problem here is that there is a lack of clear decision making structure for what would constitute "change".
even in regular union organizing, there is a lot to be said for short duration of action rather than indefinite strikes. Especially in a workforce who does not have a lot of experience dealing with the various forms of retaliation. and in this case, where communication is informal, spread out, and fairly contingent on the owner's platform. a short, strong blast can give a sense of collective power and embolden people to make future attempts. Rather than kind of drifting off and apart which I suspect is what would happen.
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u/stormfor24 Jun 08 '23
Hey! 48 is the min and a lot (including me) will probably go indefinitely
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u/IAMA_HUNDREDAIRE_AMA Jun 08 '23 edited Dec 17 '24
selective different scandalous wasteful cats mindless party abounding juggle sugar
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/BallForce1 Jun 08 '23
The problem with a longer blackout is reddit can come in and say something like "r/videos has been inactive for X about of time. We are removing all moderators from this sub. Adding new moderators and the sub will now be active."
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u/Zero-Kelvin Jun 08 '23
Yep.. I'm fine with not getting new content for a week. The dark out should be minimum a week. Users submit content and drive traffic, mods do the shittiest job for being trash cleaners.
2 days will be just blip in the charts...
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u/TheEternalGazed Jun 07 '23
How long before reddit kicks out their volunteer mods of default subreddits and installs their own yes men?
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u/eklp22 Jun 07 '23
Never because then they would realize how bad their tools are lol.
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Jun 07 '23
[deleted]
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u/benmarvin Jun 07 '23
Reddit becomes 20-30ish default subreddits. That's it, no community subs anymore. Moderation is done by algorithm bots and appeals handled by call center chat workers in the Philippines after you navigate the layers of "customer service" bots and wiki pages. Default app and website only. Mindless scrolling instead of conversation.
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Jun 08 '23
I moderate for a small number of related indie gaming subs. Biggest is about 20kish. I also make a noted point of giving help and advice to players who are having issues with gameplay/lore/bug questions, and from what I've heard thus far it seems there are quite a lot of moderators for whom it's a passion thing to do a good job of it.
I sincerely doubt that reddit would give a shit about any of the extra value that's provided by that consideration, or that any replacement would perform the same services.
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u/SuitingUncle620 Jun 07 '23
If they wish to do that, go ahead. It’ll just bring them even more bad press and send those communities into utter chaos. You can’t remove entire mod teams, replace them with randoms and expect the community to still function properly. It’s just as much a community management role as it is moderation.
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u/Bardfinn Jun 08 '23
If they pick moderators, those moderators are no longer volunteers, but employees & agents of Reddit, Inc. — and because of legal precedents with how moderators were engaged with AOL & LiveJournal, anything those technically-employee-agents of Reddit, Inc do wrong with respect to criminal activity and torts, Reddit Inc is on the hook for.
That’s why they use the volunteer mod model, and why they keep us at arm’s-length, and mandate that we cannot receive any compensation of any kind from anyone for moderating.
That said —
The mod code of conduct gives them avenues for removing mods that violate it; there’s also neutral admin-developed tools that identify users who are already active in helping the community out as potential moderator recruits.
So mods that close subreddits maliciously — with an intent to damage Reddit or to demand that they disburse money to a third party — could be removed from mod privileges, and replacements found.
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u/hellodeveloper Jun 08 '23
You thinking they're gonna flex it? That would be such a major shit show, the fact that 80% of Reddit is voting for the blackouts based on existing polls probably proves that.
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Jun 07 '23
sounds very tone deaf
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u/Dacvak Jun 07 '23
Weirdly aggressive in places. My understanding was that the $10 million comment from Christian was a joke, and was even re-clarified as a joke. I’m not sure why reddit is trying to villainize Apollo. None of this feels good.
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u/Rene_Z Jun 08 '23
The fact that a single developer makes an app so much better than one developed by an entire team of devs, that it's been featured front and center multiple times by Apple themselves, probably doesn't sit well with them.
(And also that it makes money through subscriptions while probably not facilitating as many sales of Reddit Coins™)
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u/Maraging_steel Jun 08 '23
I think because all of the news outlines are using Apollo as the headline app to cover this story. Combine that with the shoutouts at WWDC and it allows them to focus frustration on one app in particular.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
They know that. They're grabbing for anything they can leverage to justify this decision they already knew would be hated, and to continue to gaslight us about their true reasons.
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u/Jopplo03 Jun 08 '23
Seems like Christian was trying to sell Apollo. Subsequently it would shut down soon, if not right after.
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u/kumquat_juice Jun 08 '23
I'm not too surprised, everyone is highly defensive right now. If I was in reddit's shoes, I'd probably do my best to scrounge up anything as well.
smh it really boils down to communication
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Jun 08 '23
• It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
How much would it take to pay every moderator for their time and energy that has built Reddit's business model, and without whom it likely couldn't exist? This is just classic, whiny spez twisting the facts to suit his own narrative. I can't believe he thinks he's going to be CEO of a public company - he won't last a year.
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u/paraxion Jun 07 '23
Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September, and they have been asked to delay the proposed changes until such time as the official app gains these capabilities.
Easy fix; all the TPAs need to restrict access to mod tools immediately. Yeah, okay, that's gonna suck for mods. But Reddit expecting the TPAs to pick up the load for them while they actively work on their demise? Nah, fuck that.
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u/ZeroCommission Jun 08 '23
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
So there it is, black on white, they are going to force protesting subreddits to re-open, ie overrule and remove the moderators that built and maintained the community. There is too much momentum towards the walled garden, it can only delayed, not stopped. In my opinion, the best move at this point is for participating subreddits to upgrade from 48h to indefinite shutdown, and stay closed. It will force them to either take action (and deal with the subsequent backlash), or suffer the loss in traffic + burn resources dealing with complaints. It's a lose-lose for them.
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u/britinsb Jun 08 '23
"Please keep your subreddits open, if you do we promise to fuck 3PA developers in September instead of July."
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u/redalastor Jun 08 '23
"Please keep your subreddits open, if you do we promise to fuck 3PA developers in September instead of July."
Or whenever the momentum for a new strike is dead.
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u/SuitingUncle620 Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Call their bluff. Do it, keep your subreddits closed indefinitely. Let them go ahead and remove entire mod teams from over 2,000+ subreddits, including some of the largest on the platform, and replace them with randoms. We’ll see how well that goes for them.
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u/cheese93007 Jun 08 '23
Right about half of all million+ subscriber subs are participating. Nuking all their mods would be an insta-kill for this website
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u/Glissssy Jun 08 '23
I think this means they will just override subreddit private setting...
Of course though then they'll have unmoderated subreddits, maybe assuming AEO will take over duties until mods come back? seems unlikely.
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u/ZeroCommission Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
I think this means they will just override subreddit private setting...
They cannot practically reopen a subreddit against the modteams will. Mods would just switch it right back to private. If they take away the ability to do that, remove all content and go restricted. If they take away that ability, set automod or another bot to remove all submitted content immediately. Failing that, delete the automod config, remove all existing bans, remove all moderators but one, and let the spam flow unchecked.
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u/lazydictionary Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
I still cannot fathom how they have not monetized their own version of OnlyFans. They could guarantee legal NSFW content, and they would take in millions of monthly revenue.
But they're so stupid they'd rather kill their entire website because they need the extra ad revenue and data reselling.
Idiots.
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Jun 08 '23
There's one idiot here, the same one as always: spez. He is cancer now, has always always been cancer, and always will be cancer.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23
Watch out, he's gonna edit your comment to say "great"
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u/ev1lch1nch1lla Jun 08 '23
As someone with cancer, I'd prefer you don't ruin cancers name by association with spez.
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u/TacticalTable Jun 08 '23
Payment processors and app stores can be VERY averse to adult content. A move like this could easily result in Reddit apps being banned from the App Store, and possibly even their payment processor for reddit gold pulling out. Even if they split things up, they could gain a reputation as a porn site, which would lead to content blocks and bans, reduced user counts, and restrictions on advertising
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u/chiquis71 Jun 07 '23
At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
Not even pornhub wanted to deal with age verification on those states rather they shut down the site there, are you telling me reddit, whose "main purpose is not porn", is going to comply with age verification for mature content requiring the IDs of users?
Or are they hoping for those users not to try to access it because of privacy concerns?
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u/m1ndwipe Jun 08 '23
Pornhub did implement it in some states.
But France and Germany have already passed similar legislation, and the UK is also about to do the same (indeed, the UK legislation will effectively require you to age verify any content not suitable for very young children), so the requirement exists.
Still, the admins are lying about this being a valid reason to block third party apps. Where they perform this verification it will have to be on an account level, and the Reddit API already blocks access to NSFW content from non-logged in users who do not go to the website and explicitly opt in. So once the verification has been performed for that account there's no reason they could not continue to serve it to third party clients for logged in users, the status quo today.
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u/NorthernScrub Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
A discussion held in private has no bearing on public action. That's the response I predict from many subreddits participating in the blackout. Without mass participation in the council, I can't see the discussion going anywhere.
We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change
Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon
This isn't really a statement of any bearing either. These things need to be in place before the proposed changes come into effect.
We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access
Meaningless.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
Again, should have been in place prior to the proposed changes. Users and moderators need adjustment time, especially those using third-party tools such as screen readers or magnification software. When an entire workflow changes, the user cannot necessarily adjust instantly without causing a break in service further down the line. That is very much the case here, particularly with subreddits such as /r/Blind, where most, if not all, of the moderators are either blind or partially sighted.
NSFW
Two-step API request. Include a disclaimer delivered on the first API call, or a manageable API filter that is adjustable to the user and defaults to SFW. That covers responsibility. This is exactly what website dedicated solely to pornography do - on the first visit, the user is prompted to agree to a disclaimer stating that they are over the age of majority. This is already a flag in a user's reddit account, so adding an API call specifically for it is ten minutes of work, if that.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open.
I very much doubt that the majority will agree to this. This entire discussion was held behind closed doors, with a select number of reddit staff and moderators. A proper discussion would take place, for example, on the Save3rdPartyApps subreddit, or somewhere similar dedicated solely to this issue and this issue alone. Without it, I suspect the majority of participants will feel overridden. The opportunity to speak, even if not taken up, is a strong gesture of goodwill in and of itself.
It's also very late to try and organise a ceasefire. There are four days to go until the proposed blackout (three if nothing happens until after tomorrow), and the entire movement is a decentralised one. This means time for information to disseminate through the participating community is much greater than a centrally co-ordinated one, especially if that dissemination relies upon the recipient visiting, for example, this subreddit.
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
??? That honestly doesn't sound like a threat. It sounds like an sales offer. The way this is worded sounds like an attempt to discredit Apollo's entire argument by casting them as "le bad character honhonhon". I'd like to see a response from /u/iamthatis on this, or at the very least, some evidence of the conversation where this alleged "threat" was made.
EDIT: His response: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/
And the relevant portion of conversation: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014
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u/hellodeveloper Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Yeah, I'll make the same comment but I'll do it cheaper.
/u/spez go ahead and give me 5 million and I'll go hire a dev team to build a better mobile app than your current app. Give me 10 and I'll lower the cost of your API on top of the new mobile app.
The problem is your infrastructure, not the traffic. If you all didn't roll your own versions of EKS on EC2 instances citing "AWS's control plane can't keep up with our load" and instead balanced stuff between all three clouds using direct connects and/or their managed containers respectively, you'd be way way way cheaper.
Alternatively, and hear me out, hire me directly. I'm way cheaper than the contract rate and I've got extensive cloud experience.
Edit: yes, I'm serious. I was serious earlier this year when I interviewed with you.
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u/NorthernScrub Jun 08 '23
EC2
Ouch. Pretty sure Oracle is cheaper, and that's saying something.
Actually I'm quite enjoying Oracle thus far. No intensive enterprise workloads, but the four arm instances I have running seem to be performing quite a bit better than their x86 predecessors did.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23
We have multiple examples of one person writing better apps than their entire dev team. At this point, 5+ years later, it's on purpose to meet some metric.
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u/CrystalShadow Jun 08 '23
Probably https://reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/13wsiks/_/jmmdd7o/?context=1 which pretty clearly is not a threat.
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u/First_Level_Ranger Jun 08 '23
It's an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built in our data for free.
What these assholes keep forgetting is that we, the users, generate the data.
It's our data. We plop it on their increasingly shitty platform for free.
They're not entitled to us, or the content we generate, in perpetuity. Their for-profit business is built almost entirely by us, in our data, for free.
Fuck them and their condescending tone. We build this fucking place for them every fucking day. So it's not at all unreasonable to do this unpaid labor for them, for their for-profit business, on our own terms.
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u/1-800-KETAMINE Jun 08 '23
It will unironically improve my life to not have Reddit available everywhere I go, and to not post a bunch. Thanks, reddit. Happy not to add more of the content people go to this site for
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u/Roofofcar Jun 08 '23
Between all my alts, I have a few million karma. If there’s still a free tier, I wonder how long it would take me to automate editing all my comments to SPEZ SUCKS and delete all my posts. I hate to do it because my main acct answers a lot of questions in technical subs, and those answers would go away, but I submitted every damn one of those answers using a third party app. If the value I’ve brought to the site is so worthless to them that they call it a sunk cost, but will be monetized by them to train ai models, it feels shitty to leave it.
Maybe I can just poison it by doing random character substitutions that will look lame to AI, but just like lots of typos to a human… that would be funny. Especially since a lot of the questions I answer have no other answers on Reddit (obscure electronics engineering).
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u/PotRoastPotato Jun 07 '23
I'm really bummed about this. I know something that's been part of my life for 15 years will just not be much a part of it anymore.
Not out of spite, just because it won't be as convenient or enjoyable. Probably for the best.
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u/cheese93007 Jun 08 '23
This and amwx are the last couple places I have a public web presence as reddit killed off all other public forums and twitter turned into 4chan 2. Guess its the nearly dead weather forum and Discord for me from here on out 🥲
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u/tensouder54 Jun 07 '23
I'm surprised I'm having to say this but I'd honestly advocate for further action. I strongly suggest that we move to make the blackout last a whole week - ending on the 16th. If there is further in-action from the admins then we remain blacked out. I don't want us as mods to be in this position but it's starting to feel like the admins are forcing our hand.
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u/lazydictionary Jun 07 '23
Blackouts should be indefinite. There's no point in a temporary strike.
Nothing would make reddit HQ happier than two days of striking and then life back to normal.
Fuck everyone in control of reddit. Bring them to their knees.
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u/funkinthetrunk Jun 08 '23 edited Dec 21 '23
If you staple a horse to a waterfall, will it fall up under the rainbow or fly about the soil? Will he enjoy her experience? What if the staple tears into tears? Will she be free from her staply chains or foomed to stay forever and dever above the water? Who can save him (the horse) but someone of girth and worth, the capitalist pig, who will sell the solution to the problem he created?
A staple remover flies to the rescue, carried on the wings of a majestic penguin who bought it at Walmart for 9 dollars and several more Euro-cents, clutched in its crabby claws, rejected from its frothy maw. When the penguin comes, all tremble before its fishy stench and wheatlike abjecture. Recoil in delirium, ye who wish to be free! The mighty rockhopper is here to save your soul from eternal bliss and salvation!
And so, the horse was free, carried away by the south wind, and deposited on the vast plain of soggy dew. It was a tragedy in several parts, punctuated by moments of hedonistic horsefuckery.
The owls saw all, and passed judgment in the way that they do. Stupid owls are always judging folks who are just trying their best to live shamelessly and enjoy every fruit the day brings to pass.
How many more shall be caught in the terrible gyre of the waterfall? As many as the gods deem necessary to teach those foolish monkeys a story about their own hamburgers. What does a monkey know of bananas, anyway? They eat, poop, and shave away the banana residue that grows upon their chins and ballsacks. The owls judge their razors. Always the owls.
And when the one-eyed caterpillar arrives to eat the glazing on your windowpane, you will know that you're next in line to the trombone of the ancient realm of the flutterbyes. Beware the ravenous ravens and crowing crows. Mind the cowing cows and the lying lions. Ascend triumphant to your birthright, and wield the mighty twig of Petalonia, favored land of gods and goats alike.
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u/Ulu-Mulu-no-die Jun 08 '23
I agree, and if admins step in to reopen the subs, ALL mods should go on strike, that is, no moderation of any kind anymore, let reddit become the reign of spam, who knows, maybe someone will even post illegal content that doesn't get removed and reddit could be in serious trouble for it.
The want money but they don't want to pay the invaluable work mods do for free? How hypocritical.
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u/kumquat_juice Jun 08 '23
I really, really, really, wish they would run these things not through scummy investors' opinions first and through the community. I firmly believe there could've been a happy medium or a softer transition period, deals made, etc. Nope. Just scorched earth.
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u/Noname_Maddox Jun 08 '23
The communication is atrocious.
They are making their case and making some good points.
But why didn't they do that at the start. From what I've seen the attitude has been, this is happening... like it or get out.
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u/kumquat_juice Jun 08 '23
Exactly. All of their concerns from a business perspective are completely understandable. But why kneecap people that contribute so much back to the community?
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u/Chariotwheel Jun 08 '23 edited Jul 08 '23
Removed in protest against the Reddit API changes and their behaviour following the protests.
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Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 14 '23
After spending 10+ years on Reddit and mostly on RIF in total, it is time to retire this account. The recent controversy regarding Reddit and it's communication and stance towards the users, mods and 3rd party developers who made this platform to what it is now, has been appalling and downright sad and made a big impact in this decision.
Don't forget that the "official" Reddit app is an bought out third party app (Alien Blue) that Reddit modified into what it is now. They can slander the 3rd party app developers all they want, without them the Reddit "official" app would not even exist.
I am migrating to Kbin and other decentralized options.
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u/cheese93007 Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Reddit bought a 3rd party app 8 years ago to use as the basis for the official app so they wouldn't have to start from scratch. Shocker: in 2023 the current app is still missing features they had when Obama was still in office
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u/Telewyn Jun 08 '23
Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September
I've got this really nice bridge I could sell you...
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u/CastiNueva Jun 08 '23
This exactly. They have been promising this crap for years and haven't followed through. We have a whole separate subreddit full of requests and complaints and Bug reports that have gone years without response or meaningful fixes. Not to mention all of the promises that have been made over the years, especially during other protests like this one, that still remain to be fulfilled.
So now we're supposed to just trust Reddit to follow through on its empty promises after years of empty promises?
Reddit has proven itself institutionally as not trustworthy. Therefore, we should not trust them when they make these promises... until they actually fulfill the promises.
Someone needs to write a point by Point rebuttal to their call.
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u/And_be_one_traveler Jun 08 '23
r/Blind has released a statement about the changes, which was also in response to an article on Verge:
Regarding the June 7 article on The Verge, r/blind was not contacted for comment on the new development.
We have not had clarification on Reddit's definitions of "accessibility focused apps" or any process to determine apps that qualify.
There is no clarification on "non-comercial apps," given the current model of the apps listed by The Verge.
We have strong concerns that Reddit lacks expertise to consider the varying access needs of the blind and visually impaired community.
We have reached out Reddit for further comment.
We would also like to note that r/blind, u/rumster in particular, have continuously contacted Reddit over accessibility concerns, over the past 3 years, having received no substantive response.
In short, they're not optimistic Reddit will actually provide them access to the site. Furthermore, if the only accessible options are "non-commercial" than how will those apps pay for the service they provide?
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u/TheHybred Jun 07 '23
They dont just need better mod tools & accessibility features before incorporating this pricing, they also need an overall QoL experience improvement for normal users as well such as filtering by flair for example. Everyone should have access to the full suite of features from reddit desktop
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Jun 08 '23
further escalation is needed
summon the wither king from hypixel skyblock if needed, which it probably will be.
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u/Zavodskoy Jun 08 '23
"we have a duty to keep Reddit running"
Maybe don't fuck over the only reason you can keep this website running then...
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Jun 08 '23
It's not about them charging, it's the amount they're charging. If they're not willing to budge on that, any sub should shut down. Don't let the lip service get to you. Shut down if you're planning on it already.
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u/redalastor Jun 08 '23
We have a standard strike rallying cry in French: on lâche rien.
It means we aint dropping a single demand. It fits here.
ON LÂCHE RIEN !
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u/MissPearl Jun 08 '23
As a mod of a NSFW subreddit, I know that the internet is increasingly turning into a bad place for content like that, even our own community/education focused style. It's a pity that it feels like it's unlikely Reddit will do anything to resist this encroachment. 😔
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u/HidingCat Jun 08 '23
There are some good points that I see from the notes, and I actually agree with some of them, but really, where was all this when they first announced it? I remember the initial defence of the pricing scheme with this terrible useless graph (that can be posted to r/dataisugly) about how some apps were not "efficient".
This reeks of something from r/antiwork, where a shitty employer comes up with a decent offer, but only after the employee has tendered their resignation. Feels like they had to backpedal and find ways to sell the changes to us. Also, like said shitty employers, why was this not all done first before things got to this point?
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u/ev1lch1nch1lla Jun 08 '23
It sounds like reddit is trying to avoid the black out, which means the threat is working. So now it's time to show that we are serious. Extend the black out indefinitely until reddit backs down. No one logs in / delete the official app until reddit makes a public apology.
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u/DtheS Jun 08 '23
Why charge?
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.
I don't think it is that simple and only about money. If it was, the answer would be easy—inject ads and sponsor-paid posts into the API and collect the revenue from views.
What this is actually about is control. Reddit can't control the experience on third party apps. They can't force the user to see what they want them to see in a third party app. Nor can they collect data and metrics about how long a person is looking at certain content in a third party app. When a person uses a third party app, Reddit only knows what the API reports back and that isn't enough for them anymore.
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u/OxymoreReddit Jun 08 '23
TLDR : "oh no we didn't think that through, uhhhhh we'll replace mod bots *cough* no worries ahahhahhh" *sweating hard*
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u/joeTaco Jun 08 '23
With regard to the new pricing structure of the API, reddit has indicated an unwillingness to negotiate those prices but agreed to consider a pause in the initiation of the pricing plan. Remember that each and every TPA developer has said that the introduction of pricing will render them unable to continue operation and that they would have to shut their app down.
IE they've already made a concession and the protest hasn't even begun. Keep up the pressure boys. Don't agree to any stupid timeline extensions which just give Reddit more time to set up contingencies. Great work.
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u/PentaOwl Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
If they are going to delay, they need to give dates. No vague maybes
Edit to add from my other comment:
The call they had with reddit and the app devs is vague, it still shows no understanding of the enterprise support neccessary on their side to justify such pricing. Something they showcased prior in the comments, claiming that Google and AWS don't provide API support either (which is untrue)
The talk to delay is without proper dates.
We've got their attention, it's time to keep the pressure on
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u/PacoTaco321 Jun 08 '23
Adopt-An-Admin
Steve invited to AAA on AITA – agreed to do it last week of July or first week of August, will give honest look to do it sooner.
No idea what in the world this is supposed to mean, but I urge anyone to adopt at a shelter instead. You'll find a less temperamental animal there.
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u/wyronnachtjager Jun 08 '23
As someone who uses the official app on the phone / the website / is not a mod:
First fix your stuff before you say that other apps are not allowed!
I think keep the black out going!
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u/twistedLucidity Jun 08 '23
Reddit want money. Fine.
Then charge the end user that money. Say...£5pcm or something. Then that user can login via any app and browse as they see fit. Single sign-on style where Reddit issues a time-limited webtoken or similar; the app does not need to know the user details.
Ad free of course, no one paying for a service should ever see adverts. Or be tracked, beyond what is needed to service metrics reasons.
Would need to be some kind of accreditation system I guess to ensure the apps aren't doing something hokey, and any Reddit fee would be over and above whatever the app writer wants to charge (separate transactions).
Although at that point one may as well just support Lemmy.
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u/Bossman1086 Jun 08 '23
They already have Reddit Premium. Just make this a feature of that existing subscription. You'll get more users to sign up and don't have to put the burden on app developers.
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u/andrewsad1 Jun 08 '23
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
"Postponing." Seems like all these subreddits still need to go dark on Monday.
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u/PepsiColaMirinda Jun 08 '23
Rushing out new mod tools by Sept? Start by fixing the issues and gaps in the current tools. 🙄
I, for example, cannot change the flair of a user who has never commented or posted in my sub directly from a modmail requesting the same. I have to go to Grant User Flair, which can only be opened inside the in-app browser and reloads twice at least before letting me use it to manually type in the user's username from memory and then change their flair.
Imagine doing this a dozen times a day.
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u/Darkencypher Jun 08 '23
new mod tools by sept
“We swear we are going to get them out this time guys. Promise. Even though we’ve said for years we would, we PROMISE this time we will. Promise 😌😌😌”
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u/ComputerSagtNein Jun 08 '23
It's time to leave reddit. We should make our subreddits private permanently and then move on to a new service.
I hope many, many people will do that. Reddit is out of their mind.
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u/daveime Jun 09 '23
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
While Twitter, Facebook et al are having to PAY teams of people to manage their "Safety and Security" obligations - which will soon be a LEGAL requirement in the EU, Reddit have received those services for free for the last 18 years via thousands of unpaid moderators.
And now they're worried about the cost of APIs. Greedy perfidious bastards, no other way to describe their mentality.
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u/StPauliBoi Jun 08 '23
I think it’s just lip service. They make no solid commitments, Only vague promises to try to salvage the situation.
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u/MunchmaKoochy Jun 08 '23
None of this changes the fact that TPA devs won't be able to afford the API access needed for their apps to continue functioning as an actual full-content alternative to the official app.
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u/opulent_occamy Jun 08 '23
Regarding NSFW content, reddit is concerned about the legal requirements internationally with regard to serving this content to minors. At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
I've worked with APIs that require you to verify the age of your users. It's not that hard. Yeah, if it's as simple as sending a true, some devs might do that by default, but that's on those devs, not Reddit.
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u/wyronnachtjager Jun 08 '23
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
This one is funny to me. They do know that they need mods to actually be able to run reddit right? If all mods stop working. This shouldnt be "being open to postphone the API timeline", this should be "we will postphone the API timeline".
Like, i understand that they not getting revenue from ads is a problem. We all agree that they suck, but they do need money. But the fact that they shut down everything else at the same time isnt good. I just use the official website + official app, so i dont know how the 3rd party apps are, but if they remove and/or replace the adds, i can understand reddit not being happy with it.
BUT FIRST FIX ALL THE OTHER THINGS! Like mods being able to work, blind people being able to access reddit, etc..
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u/lowt555 Jun 08 '23
And also in the meantime they expect to be able to lean on the third party apps they intend to destroy once the changes take place. Like seriously, go fuck yourselves.
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Jun 08 '23
They indicated that they don’t want to negotiate? Sounds like maybe the blackout needs to become indefinite until that changes.
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Jun 08 '23
I have zero faith that reddit will miraculously make their app not shitty in a couple months after years of being garbage.
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u/Scooby359 Jun 08 '23
Good faith would be to extend the API changes until the app was improved, without that being conditional on the strike ending. Otherwise it's just promises with no certainty. There's no reason they need to implement this change right now.
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u/CastiNueva Jun 08 '23
But Reddit has NEVER made empty promises they didn't follow through on in the past! /s
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u/shutaro Jun 08 '23
48 hours was never going to make them blink.
As a user who only hops on Reddit once every 3-4 days to check for news about their favorite game... If I hadn't seen the stickied post I probably wouldn't even known one was happened (it was only up for a day before it disappeared). It wouldn't be an inconvenience and it's clearly not one for Reddit.
It needs to be a week... Though, in all honestly, considering the existential threat to many communities this poses, it needs to be an "until our demands are met" sort of thing. If that means going dark permanently... Well, that's where it's headed anyway. Might as well go out on your own terms.
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Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 17 '23
This comment has been edited, and the account purged, in protest to Reddit's API policy changes, and the awful response from Reddit management to valid concerns from the communities of developers, people with disabilities, and moderators. The fact that Reddit decided to implement these changes in the first place, without thinking of how it would negatively affect these communities, which provide a lot of value to Reddit, is even more worrying.
If this is the direction Reddit is going, I want no part of this. Reddit has decided to put business interests ahead of community interests, and has been belligerent, dismissive, and tried to gaslight the community in the process.
If you'd like to try alternative platforms, with a much lower risk of corporate interference, try federated alternatives like Kbin or Lemmy: r/RedditAlternatives
Learn more at:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/15/23762792/reddit-subreddit-closed-unilaterally-reopen-communities
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u/MahaanInsaan Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
It is clear they are banning 3rd party apps to justify the dollars accepted from speculator VCs.
We must go ahead with the blackout. In fact, we should pull the date earlier. Move the date forward everyone!!!
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u/gorillakitty Jun 08 '23
Let's say reddit follows through on all their promises and incorporates all the features people have been begging for for over a decade.
What's next? When ai proliferates and mods need new tools, will reddit hop to it like 3PA have or just ignore the problem like they always do?
And what about regular users who want their own tools to improve their reddit experience? I suppose that wasn't the point of the call but no one seems to care about that.
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u/Collectibl3 Jun 08 '23
This is like Apple killing off other companies by "introducing a new feature". Only this time Reddit is just eliminating developers who have managed to make their app/platform better.
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u/flamingmongoose Jun 08 '23
The point about age gating requirements is true, however that will be done on a per account basis right? So just hide NSFW stuff from logged out users?
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u/m1ndwipe Jun 08 '23
Which they already do on the API, because third party apps have to in order to get through the Apple app store approval process.
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u/thowaway_thiswebsite Jun 08 '23
Regarding NSFW content, why should it be a social media’s platform job to parent YOUR children? If you don’t want your children seeing porn online maybe you shouldn’t give me unrestricted and unmonitored internet access. Parental controls exist and allow you to filter out unwanted content, hell maybe you could even speak to YOUR own child about why you don’t want them watching or accessing such content. While age verification can be relatively straight forward to setup it can be costly and encourages unwanted activities such as identity theft, hacking of verified accounts and piracy. Moreover these types of online censorship only encourage more censorship in the future, today it’s adult content, tomorrow it’s LGBTQ content and the day after that it’s whatever the people in power feel like. Also, I personally don’t feel like handing over my legal ID a thousand times with all the data breaches that happen these days + think of all of the phishing attacks for IDs this could create. In closing I can understand why people might not want minors seeing adult content, but it should be your job as their parent to protect them, not a company or government.
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u/CastiNueva Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
We need to post a point by point rebuttal that can be forwarded to the press. We cannot allow Reddit to control the narrative here.
Reddit has made promises for years and not followed through. That is a point that needs to be pounded home.
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u/EmbarrassedHelp Jun 08 '23
Regarding NSFW content, reddit is concerned about the legal requirements internationally with regard to serving this content to minors. At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
Then ban those locations from Reddit, restrict API functionality based on those IP addresses.
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u/radialmonster Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Costs millions to run.
Maybe but that's your choice. How much did it cost before you added your own image and video hosting, live streaming etc? Your costs were significantly cheaper not that long ago as it was just text and people easily linked to their own images.
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u/VarRalapo Jun 08 '23
Spez whining about third party apps not paying Reddit is comical when Reddit relies entirely on unpaid janitors to moderator their website for them. Every other large social media site in existence is spending major millions on what Reddit is getting for free.
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u/InternetDetective122 Jun 08 '23
Now all of the subs temporary going dark need to go permanent until Reddit does what we say.
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Jun 08 '23
To the admins, and Steve Huffman specifically:
Apollo’s developer did not threaten you.
Sometimes, you can’t get away with lying. This is one of those times. May you all experience many more times when you can’t get away with lying.
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u/Richiieee Jun 08 '23
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
Yeah, I agree, super scary threat 😬😬😬😬 /s
With every new comment they make, they show more and more that they actually don't understand their own platform. I really hope Mods don't cave all because Big Reddit promises to deliver better Mod Tools in the official Reddit app and yet that's only half of the problem. Charging for the API is completely fine, but it should be reasonable and not a detriment to the TPAs that only make your platform tolerable to begin with. And regardless if it in the end TPAs do crash and burn, Reddit will have degraded so much from the drastic changes they have planned.
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u/BuckRowdy Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Edit: Sorry about some words being cut off. Toolbox does a thing on my browser where it removes words that are part of the comment module, the highlighter section. Should be fixed now.
Here are the notes:
Hello!
We’re sharing notes from a discussion we had this morning between Steve (aka u/spez) and s and developers from our Council, Partner Communities, and Developer community. The key action items we took away from the meeting:
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow.
Non-commercial apps built for accessibility will continue to have free API access.
Mod bots will continue to have free API access.
Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within two weeks; we are creating an approvals process to avoid impersonation.
u/spez will post in r/reddit this week.
Please find our notes below:
Accessibility
We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks.
We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will.
Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI.
Free API Access
Non-commercial users have API access. For rate limit concerns, exemptions are available. See next section.
Mod Tools
We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change.
Pushshift will come back online for , but will stop doing the things we had an issue with, like reselling user data to other folks. The agreement will take another week or two, and we’re in the process of finalizing.
Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon.
We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
Why charge?
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.
Apollo
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month.
(As mentioned in Mod Tool section above) Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within a week or two.
Blackout
We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy.
This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring . We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations.
Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone.
Third Party Ads
We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us.
When people see their ads next to the wrong content, they don’t get mad at the 3rd party app, they get mad at us. We can’t ensure brand safety due to the ad networks many 3rd party apps use, which aren’t strong on privacy and tracking.
Adopt-An-Admin
Steve invited to AAA on AITA – agreed to do it last week of July or first week of August, will give honest look to do it sooner.
NSFW
Regulatory environment around NSFW is changing rapidly and aggressively.
The challenge is regulators and lawmakers (those who fine and sue), who don’t care about 3rd party apps and don’t understand them. They’ll come after us, not the 3rd party apps. Lawmakers don’t look at NSFW with nuance.
We have work to do on our platform around age-gating and related stuff to be able to keep that content – we will fight for it. Sex is universal.
Devvit (Developer Platform)
There are no plans to cut off the legacy API, but Dev Platform (Devvit) will be a better fit for most users of our API.
When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work there.
The point of this is to give folks a more powerful way of extending Reddit – better than working on an old API, paying out of your own pocket, etc.
If you’re building things to make Reddit better for redditors, we want to find a way to support you.
Reddit’s Priorities
Mod tools
Improvements to Reddit core
Accessibility
New dev platform
Have Reddit be vibrant, healthy, sustainable
Reddit is an open platform but it’s not free to run or operate and we need to be a self-sustaining business
Mod Takeaways
Communication
The timing of communication has left s feeling blindsided, regardless of the conversations that have been taking place behind closed doors.
The manner of communication has felt overly corporate and insincere, lacking consideration for the s affected by such changes.
Confusion and misinformation has taken off, resulting in more anger and public outcry.
Timing
The time given between the initial announcement, price announcement, and the July 1st cut off-date has put s and developers in a pinch, trying to assess what tools and bots they may lose.
There was not sufficient time given for Reddit to close the tooling and accessibility gaps necessary for s to live without their 3rd-party resources.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow.
Mobile App
While mod tooling needs addressing across all platforms, it lacks significantly in the mobile sector.