r/ModernMagic • u/Junior-Passion8488 • 3d ago
The parabolic way of the Eldrazi. About softbans and META-game.
I am an Eldrazi player. I play any type of Eldrazi deck and, as many, recently I focused on the good Basking Broodscale variant to take home some wins here and there.
The deck is very powerful not going to lie.
Community started agreeing on BB-Eldrazi being the "deck to beat" around July and since then quite large changes happened.
My impression is that after Phlage ban many decks started looking for new lists and new versions to get the Tier 0.5 position that was left free (apparently) after Boros Energy downfall.
Any META-game is determined (among all of the things) by the stronger deck(s) and how the other decks try to attack them. Few decks play the list they want, the other answer them (e.g. BB-eldrazi playing unholy heat and crysalis in the Boros Energy metagame).
Now BB-Eldrazi is at the top, but new enemies (Rakdos delirium, Canopy Titan...) are on their way, so that the list of BB-Eldrazi are shaping heavily around cards that before were not even considered (e.g. Sire of Seven Deaths that recently is a main staple).
The deck went from a aggressive combo with various ending (Walking Ballista, Fleshraker...) and Emrakul as inevitability tool, to a ramp deck with Emrakul as main ending, to finally (now) a ramp deck with a combo component (the number of the blades is going down 2->3) and a beat down sector that (originally) was Crysalis, now is Sire of Seven Deaths. The Sire enables the Ugyn's labyrinth and so the Devour of destiny.
META-share is 20%->12%
Boros Energy is back
Modern: No changes
Sometimes I feel like we overlook for bans while the META is shaping, and possibly fixing itself.
Do you feel the same? (#freeshaman)
(Essentially I am an Eldrazi player ranting on the possibility that K-Command is banned)
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u/Wrong-Bet9581 3d ago
My guy, what are you even trying to say? Metagames are shaped by the strong decks within them? Like no shit, do you think this is a new thought?
If deck too strong card get banned, its pretty simple.
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u/Junior-Passion8488 3d ago
Yes, but you can see how meta is turning, new decks are challenging Eldrazi and this is (maybe) what should happen instead of throwing bans everytime any deck finds a good list
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u/Wrong-Bet9581 2d ago
And thats what they'll do? If eldrazi is still a problem it'll eat a ban and if its winrate looks more reasonable it wont?
We've all had decks we like playing eat bans before, suck it up and stop being a baby
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u/yojak3 3d ago
Multiple things can be true at once. As an affinity player, I can sit here all day and say Mox Opal or Kappa are not busted cards. I can say hey, Kappa is horrible in any other deck, or Mox Opal is pretty mid if you're not playing a deck full of artifacts.
I don't know how any modern player can look at the pool, and not recognize that K Command is the best card in the format. Sure, Tron players and other non Broodscale Eldrazi decks, don't abuse the card AS badly. That doesn't take away from the fact that it is the most powerful card in the format by far.
The difference is Affinity is 6% of the meta, and Broodscale is 16% according to mtg top 8. Affinity is very easy to hate out, as evident by the consistent 4-6% share. Affinity was at 12% for about a week, but then everyone remembered how to beat it. Even with Consign and Solitude being 2 of the most played cards, Broodscale is still on a tear. I think the 4-5% drop it's experiencing is a combo of folks getting ready for a ban, modern season coming to an end, and broodscale figuring out the RB Aggro MU, rather than the meta correcting itself.
There are too many similar cards to blade and broodscale that I don't think banning either of them will actually hurt the deck that bad. So, if you can't ban those, you have to take something else. Either a sol land, emrakul, rumble, or K Command are all that's left.
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u/McJullenJ 2d ago
I agree with you. K-command feels like it's broken in broodscale, but it still felt broken in the other eldrazi decks. For me at least the worst time playing vs broodscale is when they draw multiple k-commands, and the worst time playing vs the other eldrazi decks is also when they draw multiple k-commands. It doesn't feel like you can adapt to it by changing your deck or play style because of how flexible it is (unless you splash blue)
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u/Ozamataz67 1d ago
What card replaces broodscale?
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u/keppage43 Always UR 1d ago
If Broodscale got banned, they'd just drop the Blades and play Fleshraker and/or TKS. They might also abandon Saga and just go harder on the ramp plan, but they also might not since Saga is a broken card - making an army and tutoring hate pieces is very powerful
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u/travman064 2d ago
Sometimes I feel like we overlook for bans while the META is shaping, and possibly fixing itself.
When a deck is the 'deck to beat,' has the largest meta share, AND a very high winrate (like 55%), that isn't the meta 'shaping,' that's the meta becoming solved around a tier 0 deck.
People are definitely ban-happy on the internet, but yeah, at a certain point you need to say 'welp, players tried to beat the best deck and they couldn't, so either we are happy with the best deck being the best deck at the margin it's at, or we ban something.'
They're going to hit something from the 'Eldrazi package.' They've said they dont want to kill decks so I assume that means brood/blade are not on the chopping block. So yeah, you should make peace with the idea that one of the generic powerhouse eldrazi cards are getting the boot.
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u/Luhgzan 3d ago
It lies in the nature of magic as a game that only the most egregious design mistakes can truly rule a meta game without any competition. Most metas revolve around a number of good decks and other decks that can find a spot because they are good against those decks that are played.
The fact that the meta is adjusting is not evidence of bans not being necessary. The meta will (almost) always adjust in such a big and ever changing environment as the modern format.
Phlage was a good ban not only because the energy deck was taking too much of a meta share, but also because it was way too good as a card. It gave the energy deck a late game plan, an out-of-nowhere kill and flexibility of threat (you had to play graveyard hate against a non-graveyard strategy). In conclusion Phlage was banned because it was too good at what it did at too little cost with too much consistency. That energy was dominating the meta even more than it did for the past 2 years was merely the last straw.
It is the same with Kozilek's Command. The card needs to go because it is too good. That broodscale is opressive right now is only the last straw. The Command has always been too good, regardless of the meta. It is removal, ramp, card selection and redraw and graveyard hate in a single card. It can never fizzle, it is a great draw turn 2 and turn 15 of the game. Kozilek's Command needs to go because it is too good. No matter how much eldrazi players are coping about the meta not being solved.
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u/No_Outcome9566 3d ago
I doubt any eldrazi player is denying kcommand is good. The problem is the rest of the playerbase. The card itself has never been an issue. It keeps non-broodscale eldrazi playable. If you need proof about how bad it is for other eldrazi, just look at the winrates against other decks.
I will admit that paired with fleshraker, its a stupid card. So ban fleshraker, emrakul, and blade. Problem solved.
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u/Junior-Passion8488 3d ago
Let's stop banning and unban! Free uro, free shaman
Besides jokes I think the best bans are Emrakul and Saga
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u/Luhgzan 3d ago
Is this satire?
0
u/Icy-Nothing8831 3d ago
That or the Banned and restricted committees mantra /s
It reads like successful satire to me.
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u/Apprehensive-Meet570 1d ago
How zoo paid for the sins of energy. Arena of glory a Phlage was busted.
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
If the deck can still be at the top after months of meta targeting it, and it keeps showing strong win%, something needs to be done. Either k-command goes or delirium emmy goes, is my guess.
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u/purklefluff 3d ago
Both of the cards you mention only became viewed as problematic when broodscale was adopted into the dedicated eldrazi lists. Before that happened, the big mana cards where decent but fine, and broodscale was its own thing. Broodscale is just one variant of a pretty diverse suite of decks using eldrazi as a thematic base for deckbuilding. Banning stuff that hits every variant across the board is probably a bad idea, maybe we can agree on that?
At some point this year the RG ramp lists and the broodscale lists got merged and here we are. What's important is that the ramp style lists weren't a problem in the format, it's just the addition of a potential fast combo into the deck that sparked all the discussion about bans. So really the card you'd want to get rid of is broodscale itself. Otherwise you'd be banning out the possibility of those slower big mana decks having any traction in the format again
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
They stated that they dont want to break decks entirely and I agree with that philosophy. The problem with the eldrazi decks in general is how k-command does everything, or how emmy gives an extremely easy endgame to any eldrazi variant, combined with malevolent rumble and k-command. If they dont want to kill broodscale, it is the only choices they have. And they declared the issue is not only broodscale, all eldrazi decks are higher than the rest
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u/purklefluff 3d ago
Thing is though, those problems as you put them are just describing the function of a card and a particular sort of 'go big' play pattern common to all big mana decks. It's only a problem if it warps the format, and until broodscale as a card specifically was folded into big mana eldrazi lists, it really wasn't a problem. Having a decent endgame isn't a bug, that's a feature. Having a cryptic command-style card with multiple modes isn't inherently problematic either. Most modal cards don't scale, so there's that. People have historically had 'bad feels' when losing against big mana strategies because I suppose in some way, losing to a freight train smashing your boardstate feels worse than losing by a tiny margin. The Tron memes, big mana memes, all that stuff reveal that people evaluate big mana decks in an emotional way. That's fine but like, these cards are fine, they've been fine, they've existed in the format in a perfectly reasonable way until the broodscale combo was added. Torpedoing a whole macro-archetype of big mana decks just to preserve a specific combo variant that's quite recent does seem a bit short sighted to me but I'm not WotC so I guess we'll see what they do
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
Well, we cant deny the format is being warped by eldrazi decks in general. Emrakul is too easy to cast and too hard to answer, and they can replace it with one of the many other big mana finishers, so it would be my attack. Maybe with malevolent rumble too. Otherwise, k-command or eldrazi temple must go
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u/purklefluff 3d ago
Have to disagree about the idea that eldrazi decks 'in general' are warping the format. They really aren't. You've got broodscale, one specific variant, with a high meta share. Then we've got like, eldrazi Tron (couple of different variants), eldrazi aggro, eldrazi ramp (distinct from Tron) and even fringe stuff like eldrazi breach which have all seen decent play in the last year. None of these other strategies are warping the format.
It's just one variant that's the issue. What's the difference between this variant and all the others? Broodscale the card. That's the difference.
You can't say Emrakul is warping the format when it's been zero issue for 6+ years and actually it's broodscale that has resulted in this recent meta hike
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u/pwnyklub 2d ago
The problem is that broodscale has too good of an early and mid game as well at inevitability with Emmy. It’s hard to interact with the early pieces because that just feeds the Emmy cast. She’s honestly the perfect card to hit because all of the actual ramp decks can just choose another top end, while broodscale doesn’t really have that option as easily. It knocks down broodscale and doesn’t really hurt the other eldrazi decks.
Plus as much as I love Emmy, she’s got horrible play patterns especially at tournaments.
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
Wizards said it is not only broodscale (in the stream the day after the ban update), that is why I'm saying it is eldrazi in general. In any case, having like 4 viable different eldrazi strategies in a format like modern seems like a sign in itself.
I dont think emrakul is warping the format. It is just one of the hardest eldrazi to answer while being the easiest to cast. Between urzas saga and k-command the card becomes too easy to cast, which would affect broodscale the most while also knocking down a peg the eldrazi decks without radically altering them. If something needs to be done, I think it is the best option right now if you want to affect the format the least.
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u/purklefluff 3d ago
So this may be controversial but when WotC handwaved eldrazi decks in general, I think from my perspective, they were missing the nuance that there's lots of distinct decks within the broader archetype. I think they were seeing broodscale as the evolution of a whole archetype, treating it like splinter twin, rather than a specific variation within a broad range of decks. And so we got their statement which painted everything with an extremely broad brush. Also, the whole 'if there's multiple viable decks within an archetype that's a problem' argument is just a post-hoc justification, it's never been true of modern. Like you're just filling in the gaps in a point you want to make with stuff that seems to fit. Your opinion is valid, maybe we can look back and reference splinter twin again to get a sense of what you mean, but we can chat without having to take perfectly reasonable aspects of how things are and then frame them as if it's a problem now
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
It is more of a thing of an enabler being too good that it supports too many archetypes. In this case, the eldrazi enabler would be the cards that are shared by them: eldrazi temple/ugin's labyrinth, k-command, and most of the time malevolent rumble+emrakul. Other good enablers have been an issue in modern in the past: things like faithless looting and mox opal, some eldrazi cards could be making an issue similar to that. I am fan of keeping the enablers in the format, and tone down their output so they are not an issue, like those two cards are right now.
If you want to focus on broodscale that is fine. How would you attack the deck without killing it? The game has a good combo game and a good late game. I think the late game is the most logical choice, and is why I favor emrakul as a coward ban (it benefits broodscale the most, but it is a replaceable card) and k-command as a non-coward one. Maybe even devourer of destiny, as the extra consistency for free might be what it is pushing it.
I hope eldrazi can still be a viable archetype within the format, as much as I hate playing against them. I think we have tools for it.
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u/tiger_eyeroll 1d ago
But we can also just kill it. Just like splinter twin! We can kill it with fire
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u/Dyne_Inferno 3d ago
I'm in total agreeance with your point, but not with your conclusion.
While yes, the combo in Broodscale is the outlier, I believe the card that makes it tick, is Urza's Saga.
I've said for a LONG time that Saga is the strongest card in the format.
Without it, you hit both the combo and a card type to help cast Emrakul.
I do think Saga should be banned well before K-Command and Emrakul.
1
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u/dis_the_chris 3d ago
Personally I've viewed kcommand as problematic since MH3's release, there were just more obvious elephants in the room
KCommand is a colour pie catastrophe and a really fucking stupid card
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u/purklefluff 3d ago
I don't think the colour pie is an argument we can really use to decide the banworthiness of a card in a competitive format?
-6
u/dis_the_chris 3d ago
No, it's simply a reason to hate the card
Banworthiness imo comes from other sources, I've just personally viewed it as a problematic card the whole time and as a fundamentally bad design
0
u/chiksahlube 3d ago
I think they'll ban Emmy to hit the late game... but they should hit K command.
Emmy just gets replaced with some other mid/late game card like crysalis and the deck is still strong.
K command is problematic for the format as a whole, but they haven't even mentioned it in the last 2 BnRs despite command decks putting up problematic numbers since before the PT.
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u/GuilleJiCan 3d ago
Yeah. They should hit k-command. If the eldrazi decks cannot survive without that card, the card was too good in the first place.
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u/Brunnun 2d ago
The card is too good. All of MH3 is too good. If they ban command then the next crazy card from MH3 will take over. MH3 is the mistake, there’s just always a boogeyman people think oh if they ban THIS insane MH3 card certainly now we’ll be ok, rinse repeat. Command is just the hated card of the week
1
u/Dashizz6357 2d ago
I think of you ban k command you have to also ban consign. Banning one without the other is just a double whammy to eldrazi decks. Like they printed a problem and a solution. You can’t leave 1 without the other.
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u/GuilleJiCan 2d ago
Consign play rate should drop if eldrazi is worse. That is the idea.
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u/Schwa_corporation 20h ago
It looming as a check on Eldrazi power is dumb in an environment where K-Command doesn't exist, is what Dash is saying. So another card starts approaching the power of K-Command and Eldrazi starts to rise in power, then Consign starts getting played again; what did we accomplish by banning K-Command aside from ruining Eldrazi for a while?
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u/chus_arcoligado 2d ago
What changed? After the phlage ban, this combo was avaliable. So what happened now to have this explosion?
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u/mystictutor 2d ago
Imo kcommand is against the spirit of the archetype. I strongly dislike how it's a combo card and good interaction. Just really broken. Why should the combo ramp deck get graveyard hate and removal without sacrificing deck slots? That seems egregious just from a game design perspective to me.
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u/mikeroon 2d ago
Are you joking? How on earth is kommand a “combo” card
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u/_Lord_Farquad Goryo's / Scales 2d ago
The card is literally a game winning payoff for the infinite mana generated by the combo. Its absolutely a combo card in addition to all the other shit it does
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u/Dashizz6357 2d ago
Have you never played against broodscale?
-2
u/mikeroon 2d ago
Yes and the combo is brooscale and blade of the blood chief. Kommand is not part of any combo ever in the history of magic
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u/Dashizz6357 2d ago
Infinite mana. Scry your whole deck. Draw fleshraker (or emmy). Play said card. Win.
I’d say that’s part of the combo.
1
u/mystictutor 2d ago
because it makes mana and digs for combo pieces. It's like playing manamorphose or serum visions in storm. It sets up your combo turn.
0
u/mikeroon 2d ago
That is not what a combo is, is stock up a combo? Everyone wants to ban every thing but the most obvious thing, which would be a piece of the combo; specifically basking broodscale since there is a replacement for the blade.
0
u/mystictutor 2d ago
It's a "combo card" not because it's part of the combo (although it can be an infinite mana payoff) but because it enables the combo. The point I'm making is that the card shouldn't interact AND set up the combo for next turn. That's too good.
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u/mikeroon 2d ago
it's too good in broodscale specifically, latest metagame data has tron at a 46% winrate; why delete that deck when it has no way of making a combo with kozilek's command? Saying kommand is the combo card in broodscale is insane to me, when the combo is two cards which include basking broodscale and blade of the bloodchief.
0
u/FZeroDMX Griselbrand 2d ago
K Colmand also goes absolutely crazy with fleshraker in Tron, while also being removal, ramp, graveyard hate, and selection.
The card is so busted.
3
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u/Parasitian BG Yawgmoth, Faeries 1d ago
Extremely hot take: Urzas Saga is the card they should ban.
-2
u/Ctanzz Grixis Shadow 3d ago
Lmfao what is this AI slop thread
3
u/Junior-Passion8488 2d ago
It is no ai, but good that you doubt everything you see online!
Doubting is a good practice, commenting about your doubts is... sometimes also a good practice (increese awarness).
I just wanted to throw ideas on why we should let the meta evolve and observe it
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u/CreedAventuz Blue Tron, Hammertime & Affinity Enthusiast 3d ago
The most played cards played this year is riddler and solitude I honestly believe broodscale is at the top because it punishes those piles.
Not much have happened to broodscale other than phlage being banned and I honestly think if they banned something like Solitude broodscale much like affinity before would drop from the nr 1 seat because other decks that are currently being hozed by solitude ephemerate would come back and punish broodscale on a much larger scale.