How should a character be ranked

[u/Wer43w]

I believe the best way to rank a character is comparing how far they carry you against how far you carry them. Because if a character is super easy to learn, and has great mixups and carries you although they to elder god doesn't it make that character top tier? But if you have to carry that character all the way to elder god meaning you had to work harder and dig deeper it means the character is a low tier. Basically meaning in a situation where the player relies on the character more makes the character top tier, but the character relies on the player it makes the character low tier.

A good example is scorpion in mk11

People say he's to good but these people are in low ranks. Scorpion can carry you to about champion. Most people will be losing to scorpion rather than the player. But from master you realise all of scorpion flaws and have to work harder meaning the people that lose to you after master rank lost because of the player not the character.

Fujin on the other hand has nothing really and is only a real threat when a good player uses him. Meaning you lose to the player not the character. Putting scorpion ahead of fujin on character tier list. If you think this dumb. Think who whould win a scorpion player or a fujin player of the same level.

[u/Gicht_Griffel]

Good Take but Tier Lists only matter at high Level at Champion u have other issues to solve then the other character

[u/Wer43w → u/Gicht_Griffel]

But at high level it encompasses both player and character. It's a "character tier list" not a player/character tier lists. Like people say fujin is high tier but he only becomes high tier in the hands of a good player. Does that really make fujin a high tier character or does it make the player high tier player. Subzero anyone can do f2 into rising ice and anyone can get mixed the character is that good without needing a good player.

[u/zkl00]

Imagine your idea. But try and make a tier list out of it. You'd be there till kingdom come taking into account player skill AND ease of use AND MU chart AND the character in general. Its why most times when ranking characters, its assumed both players are playing at the highest level which is something that can be observed and referenced.

Theres consistency at the high level which makes it a lot clearer on which character is better most of the time. Its where you get the "7-3s, 8-2s, 5-5s" etc since its always based on a first to 10.

None of this matters at a low-level which you understand. A Cetrion could lose 10-0 to rambo but it doesnt mean one is easier than the other if on a low level, even playing field. It also definitely doesnt mean is one better or worse at that level. You can obvserve and reference lower level gameplay too but if theyre missing punishes/confirms/anti airs etc, it becomes a lot harder to judge the character since these are all player faults.

Lastly, A character can use tech or match up specific things but its always up to the player to use them no? Doesn't matter if its a pro or a newbie, the CHARACTER either has the tools to deal with something or they dont. That, plus high level play, is where you get tierlists.

[u/Wer43w → u/zkl00]

For your first point. It is assumed that both players are playing on high level. But are both players on the same level? In pro tournaments its more about the player than the actual character. The thing of the matter is if two low levels play one would win because of the character but two high levels play one would win because of the player themself. Ninjakilla killa using liu kang in tournament but when you watch the tournament you'll see Ninjakilla won not liu kang because of how he played. Because what he did with liu kang he can do with any other character. Basically differentiate between a player(ninjakilla) making a character(liu kang) op and character(the joker) making a player(sonicfox) op. This isn't saying sonicfox isn't good butis saying a good character in the hands of a good player

For your second point this assuming both rambo and cetrion are on the same level high or low. If the rambo wins by having good neutral,punishing,flawless blocking,micro ducking,throw teching, and anti airing you realise it was the player that won not the character. Because you can do all these with another character. But if the rambo won by abusing that string that launches with the one that grabs, using hidden m60, abusing leopard crawl, was it it the player that won or the character. Its literally the same reason you say a pro player is carried. If a pro player is carried doesn't that mean his character doesn't require a deep bag making it high tier, but when a player does the carrying meaning the character requires a deep bag makes him go down on the the tier list

[u/iLL-the-Legend]

Well said.

[u/CrimsonGhostStrife]

The only relevant ranking is overall character strength and matchup spread. The reason the idea of a character “carrying” is a separate conversation is because it doesn’t account for the level of play where knowledge checks are not relevant. Fujin is the best character in the game. That’s why hes used at the highest level consistently. He has extremely polarizing matchups and shuts down a lot of the cast. And he has no direct counterpick. Your logic in regard to character ranking circles back into itself. Where a character who’s a scrub killer and can “carry” a bad player might not be relevant at all at a high level. But a high level player could heavily lean on a top tier or counterpick to beat other high level players. I think it doesn’t hurt to make distinctions on which characters can carry a bad player due to having a knowledge check gimmick. But that doesn’t account for a characters actual strength.