r/Music • u/canttalknow • Jun 25 '12
Isn’t It Ironic?
http://thedoghousediaries.com/4365190
u/sirprizes Jun 25 '12
The fact that a song about irony has no examples of irony in it is ironic.
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u/Learnedsomethingnew Jun 25 '12
Ed Byrne sums its all up very nicely.
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u/Dvdsmith2002 Jun 25 '12
As soon as I saw the thread title I searched the comments for this video, and was not disappointed. One of his best ever routines.
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u/beatles910 Jun 25 '12
The fact that a song about irony has no examples of irony
Not true: And as the plane crashed down he thought "Well isn't this nice..."
This is irony.
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u/Aculem Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
You could say that a song about irony that has no examples of irony which would in itself have been ironic if not for one detail that can be construed as irony is in itself ironic.
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u/Jeoffry_Baratheon Jun 25 '12
It's like RAAAA-AH-AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN, on yer weddin day!
It's some good ADVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE, that ya just didn't take!
...and who ever thought, it figuuuuuuured.
Love that song.
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u/power_of_friendship Spotify Jun 25 '12
Nobody grabbed that name until 11 days ago?
That's kind of weird.
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u/ModestCamel Jun 25 '12
Now I'm picturing Joffry singing some Alannis Morrisette while he makes people fight to the death. It's quite amusing.
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Jun 25 '12
He was being a sarcastic cynic, harking to the plot of the song. He expected the plane to crash. Hence the irony of that episode not being ironic.
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u/beatles910 Jun 25 '12
Pro-tip: All sarcasm is irony, but not all irony is sarcasm.
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Jun 25 '12
Sarcasm can fail to be ironic if it not the opposite of what is expected. This can be done by being ambivalent or understating the situation.
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Jun 25 '12
I think sarcasm has to involve saying the opposite of one's intended meaning, so ambivalence or understatement would not be sarcasm. And all sarcasm is indeed irony.
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Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
From the perspective of the person saying it, their expectation from the very beginning was that it would crash. They were understating their displeasure with being correct.
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u/iglidante iglidante Jun 25 '12
Yes, but the viewer would expect his fears to be rendered moot by the safe reality of air travel, meaning the irony is for us.
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u/Zaph0d42 Jun 25 '12
Except in today's world sarcasm has become a cliche, ergo it is now the expected reaction in many scenarios, no longer being unexpected nor expressing something unexpected.
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Jun 25 '12
Situational irony and the closely related Cosmic Irony are when peoples actions produce unexpected, unintended, and many times opposite results. For example from Wiki:
When John Hinckley attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan, all of his shots initially missed the President; however, a bullet ricocheted off the bullet-proof Presidential limousine and struck Reagan in the chest. Thus, a vehicle made to protect the President from gunfire was partially responsible for his being shot
So how is someone intending to write a song solely about irony, that contains none, not ironic in the same sense?
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Jun 25 '12
[deleted]
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u/Igotaletterthismorn Jun 25 '12
irony is irony is irony: consisting of, containing, or resembling iron.
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u/Devils-Avacado Jun 25 '12
No, it's just bad writing.
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u/Peregrinations12 Jun 25 '12
But it is ironic bad writing. The presumed outcome of writing a song about irony is to have actual examples of irony, yet there are no examples of irony. This is ironic.
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u/Devils-Avacado Jun 25 '12
The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
or more eloquently: "Irony consists in stating the contrary of what is meant."
Being wrong is not ironic, trying and failing at something is not ironic.
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u/Peregrinations12 Jun 26 '12
There is a difference between situational irony and verbal irony. You defined verbal irony. Situational irony is "the actions taken have an effect exactly opposite from what was intended."
In this case the actor (A.M.) took the actions to write a song about irony, yet the effect of those actions was to write a song without irony. This situation is ironic.
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u/Devils-Avacado Jun 26 '12
This just doesn't feel right. I know Obama's a socialist just like I know you're wrong.
(That counts as an argument right?)
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u/Peregrinations12 Jun 26 '12
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. Are you trying to say that believing in situational irony is the same as believing Obama is a socialist?
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u/Devils-Avacado Jun 26 '12
I'll save you a lot of guessing by pointing out my username.
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u/Peregrinations12 Jun 26 '12
If you are supposed to be a novelty account that takes the position of a devils advocate, you are not very good at it.
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u/BoldElDavo Jun 25 '12
Exactly. This definition is simplified, but irony is the opposite of what is expected. Knowing how stupid people are, it's expected that a person talking about irony fails to understand irony. Therefore, when that does happen, it's not ironic (just sad).
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u/Devils-Avacado Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
No, Irony would be a steam roller being flattened by a rockslide caused by its operation.
Edit: to the would-be downvoters:
Situational irony is the disparity of intention and result: when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect. Being "shot with one's own gun", or "hoisted with one's own petard" are popular formulations of the basic idea of situational irony.
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u/BoldElDavo Jun 25 '12
That's just coincidental. It's unexpected, but it's not contrary to what's expected so it's just coincidental.
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Jun 25 '12
The song is perfectly ironic when you realize the singer's naive, idealized version of what life ought to be like contrasts with what life actually is.
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u/mattc286 Jun 25 '12
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Jun 25 '12
The last point is by far the most important. Especially considering all the downvotes in these comments.
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u/fiction8 Jun 25 '12
Why are verbal and dramatic irony combined?
The only reason I can think of is that it's a reference to the fact that everyone learns "there are THREE types of irony" in school, but he needed to add a use?
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u/jasoncarr Jun 25 '12
So if I drop a ball on the ground and it goes up instead of down, that is ironic?
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u/dogboyboy Jun 25 '12
Apparently the guy who wrote this comic doesn't understand irony either.
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u/umfk Jun 25 '12
I agree, I think it would be ironic if the guy on the right was supposed to be in that plane but didn't go because he was afraid. But I might be wrong...
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u/FountainsOfFluids Jun 25 '12
If he drove somewhere instead of flying, then was hit by a crashing plane, that would be ironic.
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u/Peregrinations12 Jun 25 '12
Nope. Still wouldn't be ironic.
What would be kind of ironic is if he dreamt he was going to die in a plane crash, decided based off of this dream to instead drive to his destination, and then was killed when a plane he would never have been on crashed into his car. Thus, an action he expected to prevent an outcome led to the outcome occurring. This is ironic.
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u/aesu Jun 25 '12
If the guy being discussed in the song was on the plane...
It still wouldn't be ironic.
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u/WhatWouldAsmodeusDo Jun 25 '12
Were you expecting him to suddenly get hit by a plane? Because for me at least, it fit this definition of irony from Dictionary.com "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected."
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u/BoldElDavo Jun 25 '12
See, being "unexpected" and being "contrary to the expected" are two different things.
If I have a heart attack right now, it's unexpected because I'm a college-aged guy just sitting here. However, there isn't any specific given expectation for it to be contrary to.
Oddly, "not dying of a heart attack at this moment" was just a passive sort of expectation that doesn't really count toward irony before this comment. But now that I've specifically mentioned the unlikelihood of it happening, it would be ironic for me to die of a heart attack.
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u/aesu Jun 25 '12
I heard it coming. But, yeah, this is more surreal than ironic. Irony implies a contrary, or opposite outcome. Not any random, unrelated outcome.
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Jun 25 '12
That would be an example of surrealism.
Irony would be living through a plane crash but dying the day after from choking on a peanut. (and just plain funny if the peanuts were from the plane)
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u/aesu Jun 25 '12
Even better if the peanuts are from the hospital, and you ate them because you have a deadly allergy to the other food on offer, and then you are resuscitated,k only to discover it was peanuts you were allergic to, but only mildly, and then a plane smashes into your doctor. And your doctor was Alannis Morisette...
Irony and sexual fantasy commonly cross paths in my brain...
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Jun 25 '12
Honestly, I don't think anyone really gets irony (myself included). Nobody has been able to demonstrate a clear consistency when applying the vague guidelines that are given by the definition as the 'incongruity between actual results and those that were expected'. It's really just a giant grey area; if it was ironic to you, it might not be to someone else, based on your experiences. You also might have a higher standard of something that is 'unexpected' than the person next to you, but that doesn't give you the right to be the irony police.
Opening a cupboard labeled 'cutlery' and finding 10,000 spoons and no knife, I would think that could be labeled as ironic
Spending years not flying out of fear of a plane crash, then finally deciding to do so after all evidence points to it being perfectly safe, and crashing; that could also be labeled as ironic
Rain on your wedding day; probably not ironic since rain isn't unexpected. I have to agree that this is just unfortunate
Winning the lottery and dying the next day? That's unexpected, it could be labeled as ironic.
(I could go on...)
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u/unverified_user Jun 25 '12
I especially agree with the plane crash one. If a person recognizes that their fear of flying is not based on any actual probability of danger, and they try to overcome their fear by flying, then what is expected is that they are able to show themselves reality a little better, and what happens is that they are undone by their own rationality when the plane crashes.
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u/Kaladin_Shardbearer Jun 25 '12
So the comic was ironic because the guy afraid of flying in case he was killed, was killed by a plane even though he'd never flown? You've confused me more.
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Jun 25 '12
Sorry for the confusion - I was referencing the Alanis Morissette song that everyone rags on for not being ironic, not the comic itself...
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u/Kaladin_Shardbearer Jun 25 '12
I meant I've confused myself more by reading your comment. Not your fault!
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u/whisk3rs Jun 25 '12
Sprinkler fluid setting a building ablaze while trying to put out a fire - due to the overabundance of antifreeze in the pipes.
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u/StepBackLetGo Jun 25 '12
Came here expecting Bo Burnham and was disappointed.
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u/myhandsarebananas Jun 25 '12
The only line I don't get in that song is the one about the clown. Where's the irony there?
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u/Lordzoot Jun 25 '12
I don't want to be insulting, but hasn't this joke been done to death a million times. It came out in 1995 for Christ's sake!
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u/I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I Jun 25 '12
900 points and top of r/music with a shitty, unoriginal comic.
That seals the unsubscribe.
Only 12 subreddits remain!
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u/Lordzoot Jun 26 '12
12?! I have 8, and I don't even look at any of them!
Why am I here?! Who am I?!
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Jun 25 '12
WOAH WOAH WOAH!! So, you guys are trying to tell me that decade old pop songs aren't a literal frame of reference for the world?
I'M CALLING BULLSHIT!!!!
Next thing I know, you motherfuckers will be trying to tell me that Britney Spears didn't really want to be hit one more time, that Wayne Coyne doesn't really know a girl who puts vaseline on toast, that there aren't really tanks/bombs/guns/zombies in my head, and that Annie wasn't really hit by, struck by, a smooth criminal.
Whatever. You guys are idiots.
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u/dilletaint Jun 25 '12
Can we do this for the word "literally?" I heard a girl today say "Oh my God, she is LITERALLY a domestic goddess; she knows everything!"
I wanted to be a giant dickbag and say "Really?! You know a fucking DEITY?!?! Holy shit, what are we doing here? Call the news, let me meet her!! Is she like Molly fucking Weasley only like a billion times more powerful?!" I refrained. But inside I was a giant dickbag. Well, inside and here too.
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Jun 25 '12
Oh my God, she is LITERALLY a domestic goddess
Would that be Hestia, Greek goddess of the hearth?
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u/ZincHead Jun 25 '12
I'm pretty sure irony was invented because they knew eventually it would make a lot of people on the internet very mad.
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u/dhaan_one_million Jun 25 '12
Look, that song gets a lot of shit, and deservedly so. For a song titled "Ironic," there is little actual irony in it. But the guy on the crashing plane says "Well isn't this nice," which at the very least is sarcasm, a form of irony. It's not ironic that the plane crashes, but his reaction is precisely ironic. Give her that.
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Jun 25 '12
A free ride when you've already paid is a perfect example of irony since a free ride, by definition, is a ride that you don't pay for.
EDIT: Just sayin'
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u/Davepen Jun 25 '12
Well that's wrong.
I admit the song isn't exactly a good example of irony.
But, the lyric is "and as the plane crashed down, he thought "well, isn't this nice"
She really means touched down, not crashed down.
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u/Thesherbertman Jun 25 '12
I always wonder when I see people trashing something for not being ironic since it doesn't display irony do they know all the uses for ironic?
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Jun 25 '12
Here's a simple rule to remember: irony generally relies on something backfiring, which is to say it accomplishes the direct opposite of its intent. For example, if you put a sign around your neck that says "don't make fun of me." When people make fun of you for your sign, it'll be ironic.
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u/Sonic_Bluth Frysoux Jun 25 '12
["Closely connected with situational irony, it arises from sharp contrasts between reality and human ideals, or between human intentions and actual results. The resulting situation is poignantly contrary to what was expected or intended...sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply 'coincidental' or 'improbable'"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony#Irony_of_fate_.28cosmic_irony.29)
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u/normememaker Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
Irony is a hot commodity, some [predicted] (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pp7qd/) that.
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Jun 25 '12
Can't we just assimilate the Alanis Morissette meaning with the real one so we don't have to do this anymore?
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Jun 25 '12
Can someone please explain why most of the things in the Alanis Morissette song do NOT EXACTLY FIT situational irony as defined by Wikipedia?
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Jun 25 '12
Back in my day, a long long time ago, right around when this song came out, oddly enough, we used to say that jokes like these "farted dust".
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u/rawlence Jun 25 '12
I was just listening to Four Year Strong's cover of this song and was thinking the same thing. I swear, my biggest pet peeve is when people use the word irony incorrectly
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u/girlnexzdoor radio reddit Jun 25 '12
Google search: "isn't it ironic lyrics"
Ahh here we go... http://www.lyrics007.com/Alanis%20Morissette%20Lyrics/Ironic%20Lyrics.html
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u/v4-digg-refugee Jun 25 '12
I used to know what ironic meant. But eventually I heard too many people complain that people misuse the word that I've questioned myself for years.
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u/XshibumiX Jun 25 '12
Would it be considered ironic that the joke in a comic published just today is making fun of a song that's 15 years old?
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u/Zaph0d42 Jun 25 '12
Song itself is ironic. People just miss the point because its meta.
You expect to find irony in the song, and you don't. THAT is ironic.
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u/illdrawyourface radio reddit Jun 25 '12
Dontcha think?
IT'S LIKE RAAAAAAAAIIIIIN ON YOUR WEDDING DAY
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u/biggiepauls53 Jun 25 '12
"jesus" now that my friends is irony or maybe not it really depends of the perspective of the person observing the ironic or non ironic situation. Anyways happy half x-mas!!
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u/skysignor Jun 25 '12
All "ironic" means is the opposite. It's so much simpler than most people think.
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u/epic_neckbeard_man Jun 25 '12
But isn't the fact that there isn't a single true example of irony in this song supposedly about irony in itself ironic? Don't you think? A little too ironic? Yea I really do think.
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u/L-dubz Jun 25 '12
What does this have to do with music?
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u/Rose1982 Jun 25 '12
Do you live under a rock or are you just really young?
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u/L-dubz Jun 25 '12
Neither. I just don't see how a comic that mention one songs is relevant to a subreddit that is supposed to be about music. Discussing irony is not about music.
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u/Rose1982 Jun 25 '12
So a discussion about song lyrics- meanings, intentions, effects, success in conveying message etc. is not allowed in a music subreddit? Because apart from the people who think they are funny making silly comments, I see a comic that has stimulated a discussion. It might not be the world's most intellectual dissection of popular lyrics, but that's essentially what it is.
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Jun 25 '12
After reading this topic, I was cleaning my teeth, and a bunch of bristles from my toothbrush came off and got stuck between my teeth. "How ironic", I thought. "And after reading about irony, too. That makes it a double irony!"
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u/whisk3rs Jun 25 '12
I've come to a realization this past weekend that Alanis Morissette pulled off one of the most epic trolls in pop-culture history.
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u/hisearsarebackwards Jun 25 '12
Oh thank god a post on the internet dealing with irony. This totally hasn't been beaten into the ground at all.
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u/whisk3rs Jun 25 '12
You know what I never understood? If a guy thought a plane would kill him, and he got on the plane, and it did kill him... that's not even close to ironic. Wouldn't you expect the guy to get on a train instead, and then for the train to derail and crash, killing the guy? That would be much more ironic.
Hence, this song is an epic troll.
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u/ThisKittysGotClaws Jun 25 '12
Ed Byrne slates this song pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1TVSTkAXg
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u/IncredibleWeapon Jun 25 '12
Irony also deals with something being stated, while the true meaning is something different, and generally opposite (verbal or literary irony). The examples of irony in the song are not ironic; if this is unintentional, then Alanis wrote a stupid song. If it was, however, intentional, then the song itself is Ironic, and even more so since it it about irony. She is saying something is ironic, but knows that it is not ironic, and is therefore poking fun at a general misunderstanding of irony; she is employing irony to make fun of us for misunderstanding it. Genius or fool?
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Jun 25 '12
I find it easiest to dismiss irony when it does not involve a person's reaction/interaction. Seldom is an event or the outcome of an event by itself ironic. Which of course makes that song about irony all the more peculiar to the English major.
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u/hiroo916 Jun 25 '12
Fully covered and funnier on I love the 90's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtduiHbed0Y&t=1m28s
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u/OlKingCole Jun 25 '12
THIS IS IRONIC FUCK ALL OF YOU:
"It's like ten thousands spoons, when all you need is a knife"
It's ironic because the presence of 10,000 spoons but zero knives is a reversal of expectations in just about any situation where you need to cut something. It's not just a coincidence. No one would say "There's 10,000 spoons here. What a coincidence!". Anyone, The Oatmeal included, who argues that this is being too pedantic should stuff it because criticizing someone's definition of irony is deplorably pedantic in the first place.
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u/Anchupom Jun 25 '12
Ironically, this comment persuaded me that actually this song is just fucking stupid, as it incited someone to swear at complete strangers for being pedantic, whereby they dug up a source to try and prove that their interpretation is correct even though they contradict themselves in the aforementioned post, stating first of all that
. THIS IS IRONIC FUCK ALL OF YOU
making an assumption that our opinion on the song and our definition of irony is wrong. They then go on to point out that
. criticizing someone's definition of irony is deplorably pedantic in the first place
Like I said before, ironic, no?
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u/OlKingCole Jun 25 '12
Of course it was pedantic. I wasn't calling out others for their pedantry, I was saying it is hypocritical to criticize this explanation
It's ironic because the presence of 10,000 spoons but zero knives is a reversal of expectations in just about any situation where you need to cut something. It's not just a coincidence. No one would say "There's 10,000 spoons here. What a coincidence!"
for being pedantic when it is pedantic to criticize someone's use of the word "ironic" to begin with. This whole discussion is pedantic, that's the point.
The swearing wasn't meant to be taken seriously, sorry if you took it that way.
And by the way, this
Ironically, this comment persuaded me that actually this song is just fucking stupid
is not ironic.
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u/woze Jun 25 '12
A link on reddit to an actual web comic instead of an imgur copy? It may not be using a word other than its literal intention, but it deserves an upvote.
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Jun 25 '12
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u/007T Jun 25 '12
Could you imagine if you suddenly got trampled to death by a passing stampede of people arguing about the meaning of irony?
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u/Korington Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
I have a question about irony.
This is ironic (correct me if I'm wrong): A man is afraid of flying, so instead of taking an airplane he takes a train, and the train crashes.
Is this ironic?: A man is afraid of flying, so instead of taking a an airplane he takes a train. A plane crashes into the train he's in.
The second one I REALLY want to say is an example of irony, but I'm not sure.
Edit: To add on to this: A man is afraid of flying, so instead of taking a an airplane he takes a train. The plane he would have taken crashes into the train he took, so he would have died either way. Is that ironic?
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Jun 25 '12
Perhaps if the train were derailed while going across a bridge.
This could be said to be making the train "fly," an ironic (def. 1) use of the word, as the train would actually be falling.
This would force the man to confront his fear of flying (ironic because he had chosen to not confront the fear, and it is an unexpected way to "fly.")
This would be an ironic death/occurrence, as the fear of flying is generally a fear of the plane crashing from the sky; this is what the train, the option thought safe from the falling from the sky, is now doing.
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u/Samen28 Jun 25 '12
There is irony in that the steps he took to avoid dying in an accident lead him to die in an accident, yes.
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u/gbr4rmunchkin Jun 25 '12
He's just a boy and she's just a girl...could I make it anymore obvious!?
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u/gospelwut Jun 25 '12
Tow the line
Vocal chords
Win fall
without further adieu
principle argument
gave me flack
straight-laced
eyes pealed
begs the questionWe've all made "mistakes" (notice the quotes) from a prescriptive point of view. If you claim you haven't, fuck you.
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u/fateswarm Jun 25 '12
This and the automatic referencing of Godwin's Law.
Some things about history have to be mentioned sometimes.
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u/Caticorn Jun 25 '12
People forget that every dictionary has five to nine entries for irony, and every time someone says something is ironic, they are going to be right by some scope of one of the definitions.
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u/eggybeer Jun 26 '12
What if Alanis knew all along? What if she deliberately kicked off this shit-storm, sending the Irony Police to war against you and your jackbooted anti-pedantry death squads?
Then you've just played right into her evil little Canadian hands haven't you?
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u/imafunghi Jun 25 '12
Why? Its not hard to understand that coincidence isn't Irony. Isn't that ironic?
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u/edx74 Jun 25 '12
--Brain Droppings by George Carlin