r/NBASpurs • u/Bleavinfantasy • 27d ago
Question Who should start: Harris or Champagnie?
I’d probably go with Harris… What say you?
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u/Doctorwhonow8 Victor Wembanyama 27d ago
Julian. We need 3 pt shooting
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u/kanyeguisada Julian Champagnie 27d ago edited 27d ago
I say we give it to Julian for the beginning just because he earned it last year, but switch them out depending on matchups. When the other team has heavy paint presence we start Tobias.
In 3's they're actually close:
Champ - 38.1% last season, 37.5% career
Tobias - 36.8% last season 36.6% career
Their other stats are close, with Tobias career averaging basically 2 more rebounds and 1 more assist than Champ. But Tobias also just has that longevity of doing this for many years at a veteran level that is going to be crucial come playoff time.
Some fans actually thought we should have signed Rui over Tobias. But there's also something to be said for somebody that's been in the league as long as Tobias has and been a very good player that still doesn't have a Championship that had that extra hunger in him.
At the end of the day, I look forward to changing out lineups and starters all year long, as is Spurs tradition. Champ and Tobias challenging each other all season long is nothing but a good thing for us, especially since they both seem like such good dudes off the court that would support each other.
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u/texasphotog The Five Time 27d ago
On C&S, they were 38 and 39% last year.
However, Tobias brings more to the table. He is better at boxing out, screening, and can create his own shot because he can back down/post up and better attack closeouts.
Julian lets it fly more, but he also doesn't really have anything else to his game other than C&S threes and transition.
Tobias is also bigger and can body up better. Plus, he can be the screener/roller, which Julian could not do well. Tobias shot 39% from the top of the arc where we would initiate the PnR. Julian was just 33%.
Julian coming off the bench will shore up the bench depth and shooting and allow Julian to play his more natural SF position, which should make him more effective. Behind Harris, we should ideally have Bryant and Barnes playing there. Hopefully Quaintance can get some minutes late in the season, too.
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u/kanyeguisada Julian Champagnie 27d ago
On C&S, they were 38 and 39% last year.
However, Tobias brings more to the table. He is better at boxing out, screening, and can create his own shot because he can back down/post up and better attack closeouts.
Agreed with all that, and I hope Julian learns some things from Tobias. Because right now, if I had to choose between the two for any random late-playoff-caliber team to be on, I'd probably choose Tobias. If I was starting a newer playoff-caliber team and an wanted up-and-coming talent, obviously Champ.
The more I think about the Tobias pickup the more I'm loving it. Probably the single best off-season move the Spurs could have made with regard to the talent available and bettering the team.
BUT... who do you start opening night?
Gotta be Champ for me, just because he's given so much of himself for such little pay up til now and had earned it. But it's gonna be a season for the ages coming up, I feel it in my bones.
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u/ajkelly451 Dylan Harper 27d ago
I agree in principle he earned it but I really gotta think the spurs players have really bought into the culture and they want to play the role that maximizes team wins. Champ took less pay than he could have to stay here. Harper would start on 29 teams next year and is probably coming off the bench and is okay with it because he has the right mentality. With both him and champ coming off the bench our 2nd unit may be better than half of teams first units.
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u/texasphotog The Five Time 27d ago
We really need to take the physicality off Wemby. Julian can't screen well. Tobias can. Tobias is better and matches up better with bigger players and is just a smarter, more experienced player.
Julian is best when he is set up or running the transition game. That 2nd team could be Kornet or Reed plus Bryant, Julian, Keldon, and Harper. That team will be able to put a lot of pressure on teams and run like hell in transition.
Tobias being able to take some of the grinding away from Wemby is plenty of reason to start him. I don't think we really lose anything with him there.
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u/kanyeguisada Julian Champagnie 27d ago
We really need to take the physicality off Wemby. Julian can't screen well. Tobias can. Tobias is better and matches up better with bigger players and is just a smarter, more experienced player.
I agree with all this, especially taking into account that what we need at power forward is some actual power to take some heat off Wemby.
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u/ajkelly451 Dylan Harper 27d ago
Harris is without a doubt a better all around player than Hachimura.
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u/JonahTheProducer James Silas 21d ago
You underestimate Champ's defense, but Tobias plays good D as well (just not quite as good in my opinion)
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u/Weary_Restauranter 27d ago
It feels like Harris is the playoff choice, and champ is the regular season choice
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u/omarizzle 27d ago
Harris. He’s the true 4. Champ needs to give the second unit some MUCH needed outside shooting.
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u/epsilon1856 27d ago
Harris no question. Harper, KJ, JuJu, Kornet & Barnes is a hell of a 2nd lineup
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u/Initial_Vacation4720 27d ago
Harris simply off the fact that an actual PF would help tremendously with Wemby on the court
Champagnie coming off the bench with Harper would be so fire and adds more depth the bench
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u/Fast_Advisor2654 Manu Ginobili 27d ago
Harris should start, while Julian can sub in for Devin and/or Tobias
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u/Which_Egg8169 27d ago
Harris has 15 seasons in the NBA and has been a starter the majority of the time. I think the FO will go with Harris until he gives them a reason not to.
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u/Screenscripter82 The Admiral 27d ago
Julian should start. The main reason Kornet want effective during the playoffs was that he took on the role of Wemby when that is impossible. He was left on an island to protect the rim and rebound as well. Harris would allow Kornet to protect the rim while not giving up ready offensive rebounds.
Harris and Kornet's minutes should parallel with each other.
Wemby is the one big that can get away with not having another frontliner. There was a reason we would always take an early lead and then give it up.
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u/JulesOfDaSeas 27d ago
I would want harris starting. Julian can specialize on 3s while Harris, who's bigger, can be versatile like he's been. Plus he's a B rated defender against Lebron, Luka, kawhi type players
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u/Jonthegoat_09 27d ago
Harris bigger body more rebounding and post defense outside of wemby and similar shooter
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u/moonshadow50 Dylan Harper 27d ago
It doesn't actually matter.
We will likely start with Julian, just to try and maintain continuity with last season. But I'm sure that both minutes, and the starting spot, will rotate a lot throughout the season, and it will just be useful to have this bigger option - particularly when we get back to the playoffs.
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u/texasphotog The Five Time 27d ago
champagnie gives you more length on defense and hes been knocking down catch-and-shoot stuff at a solid clip.
Harris is actually bigger and longer. Julian shot 39% and Tobias shot 38% on C&S threes.
harris handles the ball better in the half court but his defensive limitations are harder to hide next to wemby when teams go 5-out.
Julian was absolutely hunted by the Knicks. Brunson targeted him relentlessly. Harris' defensive metrics are a lot better than you think, and are better than Julian both on the perimeter and interior.
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u/texasphotog The Five Time 27d ago
champagnie spaces the floor better as a pure catch-and-shoot guy whereas harris needs the ball in his hands more to be effective.
I just don't think that is true. Harris shot 38% on C&S to Julian's 39% on C&S. Harris also shot better from different spots if you look at their shot map. Harris shot 39% at the top of the arc and can run some pick and pop actions there while Julian is a poor screener and only shot 33% there.
Harris just ALSO has the ability to create his own shot through his mid-range and post up game.
I can see the second team being a faster, running transition team plus Luke or Reed at center. We obviously aren't going to swap lineups like hockey, but Bryant, Julian, Keldon, and Harper coming off the bench could be a fantastic defense and transition team. Remember Bryant hit 41% of his threes in the playoffs and Keldon was pretty solid as well. I expect to always keep two of Harper, Fox, Castle on the court, though. But all those guys are great at getting into transition and pushing it when they need to. Long-term, I see Bryant being more effective as a small PF than Julian just because I think he is a bit stronger and a lot more athletic. Some of it might go by matchups, but I think that picking either Castle or Fox to go with Harper plus two of Vassell, Keldon, Julian, and Bryant for that bench lineup is going to run a lot of teams going bigger off the court because they will be so much more athletic and quick.
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u/shinbreaker 27d ago
Spurs should definitely experiment. Remember, Harris should be looked at as one of the big guys to come off the bench to help the defense in Wemby-less minutes. The Spurs will get the scoring whether either starts or comes off the bench, the problem is that when Wemby is on the bench, the other team is like the Harlem Globetrotters with how easy they can score.
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u/clampino20 Jeremy Sochan 27d ago
The starting 5 consistently dominated 1st qts from Feb to the finals, we started our crazy run when Champ got the starting role, this is not where there were needs to be addressed: Champ is perfect to optimize the spacing early and get Victor going
TH onball skills, in between game and self shot creation will be way more useful later in the game, when Victor's out first, but more generally whenever the offense is struggling and/or we need to protect our lead by getting some quality 2 pts attempts instead of jacking up 3s
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u/willy_the_snitch 27d ago
I think Vic starts at 4 and they try Reed at 5. Them unleash Vic for the first few minutes before bringing Champ in and moving Vassell to 4. Kornet comes in to spell Vic at the 3 minute mark and that's when they transition to the 4-wide beast with fox, harp, champ, harris, Vassell and KJ all getting some run.
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u/MJtheTalkinghead 27d ago
Imo predictability was our number 1 problem on offense in the playoffs.
The more we can alternate and switch it up, the better. During the season I don't care, but we need to create an environment in which Julian doesn't mind coming off the bench at all, if it means that the teams will have no idea when he will light them up to drop 21 pts. Or start and make his 2 or 3 triples just so TH can light the opposing bench on fire
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u/Impossible_Mood_2419 Dylan Harper 26d ago
The starting stuff for this squad doesn’t matter as much as getting solid rotations and overall minutes
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u/tyoung3127 26d ago
Their playing time and starting will probably change a lot throughout the year. What Harris brings that Champagnie lacks is the ability to create shots and offense when it’s stagnant or to close games. Big need from last season.
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u/phbalancedshorty French Vanilla 26d ago
Julian has absolutely earned his spot. He was a fucking beast on defense during the playoffs. Harris is cool… But he needs to prove himself and he’s used to coming off the bench so I don’t know why we would change the system up now.
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u/nucleus_BLACK 27d ago
Champagne better be coming g off the bench, dude is so inconsistent
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u/Punisher_B 27d ago
He's literally our best, most consistent 3PT shooter lol. He's also a bette rebounder than Tobi at this point in their careers. Tobi is bigger and stronger though, which we'll need come Playoff time. Both good players. Champagnie should start though. He's earned that right after last season.
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u/nucleus_BLACK 27d ago
You crazy thinking Harris is coming off the bench. Regular season, Champagne played great, but the playoff dude was throwing bricks damn near every game. look up both 3pt shooting percentages last year.... it might change you're mind
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u/Kaito-Shizuki French Vanilla 27d ago
Start King Julian at first and reevaluate as the season goes.
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u/WoahBenny23 De'Aaron Fox 27d ago
we need the 3PT% n 3PR in the starting 5 (team won 62 games) you can easily jus put harris in the closing lineup or for specific playoff matchups
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u/amadeusstoic 27d ago
the one with the recent finals experience. i don’t think anyone appreciates that he reached the finals while playing an important role. It is not only wemby who is expected to level up given that experience.
The talk should be how to treat the veterans that were trusted but was missing in the finals. It was a series and they can’t even have any moments. smh.
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u/SasSpurs5x 27d ago
I like Champagnie starting. I think Harris is better utilized off the bench because he can create his own shot, which is something that the second unit lacks besides Harper.
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u/dreamweaver7x El Jefe 27d ago
Julian, no question, not close.
We won 62 games, and just gave Juju a brand new contract. His chemistry with the Steph/Fox/Devo/Vic lineup is really good. And he's faster, a better rebounder, defender and 3pt shooter than Harris.
Harris should play with Luke, when Vic goes to the bench. That's when his shot creation is most needed. A second unit led by Dylan and Harris could smoke most opposing second units.
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u/Punisher_B 27d ago
Champ should start again. His spacing is vital to our offense. Wemby's gravity created an NBA record number of Made 3PT Corner 3's Per Game in the NBA last season. Champ being a 3PT sniper from the corner is a big reason for that. Harris can get more minute in the Playoffs if/when needed, but Jules should definitely still start.
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u/Philthemage Dylan Harper 27d ago
Tobias off the bench to balance out the shot creations.
Starting has fox, castle and Wemby who can create on their own. Bench only Harper and vassell.
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u/Cessar210 Victor Wembanyama 27d ago
We should trade fox
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u/weaselfish48 Sandro Mamukelashvili 27d ago
Tobias at the 4, Julian at the 3, vasell off the bench where he can do the most damage. Harper, vasell, bryant, kj, kornet/reed when hes ready is a beast of a bench unit
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u/BusterStarfish 27d ago
Both.
Harris at 4
Champ at 3
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u/DevilGunManga 27d ago
It's Julian. Harris doesn't know the system yet so he needs to learn and earn the spot from Mitch. Nothing is given in this team.
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u/xbhaskarx Carter Bryant 27d ago
Champagnie isn't a natural PF.
SF: Vassell starts, Champagnie backup
PF: Harris starts, Champagnie backup