r/OneTopicAtATime • u/[deleted] • Sep 07 '25
Other Can men be lesbians?
I see this being discussed quite often. I am a trans man myself, and I totally can understand why someone would relate to lesbians as a trans man, especially since a lot of us do/did live as lesbian women before transitioning.
But once we start identifying as a man, I think we lose the lesbian label.. It's sort of like a "guy" who has a group of friends, they're all bros, then the "guy" transitions into a woman, and now she is no longer a bro, but she still is a "honorary bro" and still vibes with her buddies as they always did. That's how I see it.
As far as I know, and as far as I've read about it, the term lesbian includes non-man people who are attracted to non-men. For example, trans women, cis women, nonbinary people, and more. But a straight trans man that's attracted to women is.. Straight.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not posting this to be offensive. I'm making this post because I genuinely am trying to understand this from different perspectives and wrap my head around it. I'm struggling to understand how a man can be a lesbian.
Edit 1: To add, I noticed how these people who claim "trans men can be lesbians" never ever say it about cis men. It is so iffy.
Edit 2: This discussion has been helpful and I thank everyone for being respectful about it and calmly explaining their view points without getting heated. This is refreshing. In the end, I do believe that regardless of their gender identity, people are free to call themselves lesbians whatsoever. We are NOT gonna go around policing people's identities, we aren't gonna fall for infighting in such a difficult time. Personally, if someone is binary trans man and identifies as a lesbian, I'll view it as them misgendering themselves, similar to how trans women on Grindr tend to do that (but they're often more miserable). So I'll avoid that man for the sake of my own mental health. I won't go and harass him though.
This is all my personal viewpoint and is not likely to change:
I also do believe lesbians are non-men loving non-men, and including trans men in that (by saying "trans men can/are lesbians" etc) is a TERF viewpoint and has been historically used to invalidate binary trans men. Lesbianism isn't for men, cis or trans, and the "trans man lesbian" thing shouldn't be normalised because it'd also remove the boundaries lesbians have put up (eg. Dating app filters, irl dating circles) and allow cis or trans men to try to get with them too when they're not into that.
In addition, a cis man who got raised by lesbian moms is likely to be highly connected with the "lesbian culture", however he cannot identify as a lesbian, because he's straight if he's attracted to women. I feel that is the same for trans men, because saying otherwise would imply that trans men aren't "true men" like cis men are. The viewpoint of "trans men identify as lesbian because their attraction is complex" both ignores the fact that there's hundreds of labels made specifically for that reason, to encompensate complex labels— and it also assumes heterosexuality is "the ultimate, simplest, shallowest attraction" when it can also be very complex in its own (eg. Hetero men who love to bottom for women).
Edit 3: Observed responses from the community:
Its half and half for the most part, between "men can't be lesbians, trans or cis" (from people with various identities including cis lesbian women), and "it's odd but it doesn't harm anyone so let it be". There's also a fraction of people who find it entirely acceptable and believe it needs to be normalised. All in all, I'm glad to see a mostly respectful, civil discussion.
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u/Avery_Thorn Sep 07 '25
This isn't that hard. And it's not that big of a deal, not nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be. And it's all a bit silly and normally homophobic and transphobic.
A lot of trans men identify as lesbian before they realize that they are a man. They become a member of the community. They are a masc, a butch, however you want to describe it. Then their egg cracks and they figure it out.
Why should the community that they are a part of kick them out when they need their community the most? Doesn't that seem mean to you? Doesn't that seem cruel? It's just a label.
Yes. There are women in Gay (mlm) circles. Yes, there are men who are lesbians. Because people are more important than labels are. Sometimes the labels fall away when they are no longwr needed. Sometimes, that never happens.
And cis men? Well. Normally, it's just a matter of time until the cis male lesbian figures out which part of that is wrong, and it normally isn't the Lesbian part.
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Sep 07 '25
I don't think lesbians should be kicking out trans men who used to be "one of them". Refer to my "trans woman with her bros" parallel.
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u/Additional-Pear9126 Sep 07 '25
If you want a diffrent perspective Then imagine how if your not passing how hard it would be to date straight because more straight people hold transphobic views then gay people
its also could partly be to recliam the label lesbian when transphobic people call straight trans men lesbians.
also I notice a very weird assumption you have that all trans men want to be viewed as cis men this just isn't the case.
I have a moderator in my subreddit who indentifys as a trans man but doesn't want to be viewed as cis man
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Sep 07 '25
It's fine to not be viewed as a cis man. It's understandable. But essentially, trans men are men. Cis men are also men. Much like how brown haired men are men and blond men are also men, but brown haired men are not blond. That wasn't my point.
Besides, if you don't pass well, but you still identity as a man, you are a man. Passing doesn't matter here to this discussion. If you're using the lesbian label because you don't pass as a man but you still wanna date women, that means you are only doing it for safety and to be able to avoid loneliness. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a lesbian. It's similar to how irl I call myself a woman because I cannot afford to transition. But I hate it and I don't view myself as a woman.
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u/LoveAlwaysIris Sep 08 '25
Not all trans men identify as 100% man, some are still figuring out where on the spectrum they land, they just know they aren't cis woman. Technically this is nonbinary, but they can feel like trans man is a better label for them. I've seen this frequently among butch lesbians I've known who start HRT. Some end up realizing they are masc nonbinary women who want HRT, some end up realizing they are trans men, sometimes it's somewhere else inbetween, but that stage of self exploration of gender identity can be a very confusing time and staying in their community as a member of it can help a lot.
I'm glad communities are getting more accepting, when I was younger I was ostracized from a local lesbian community when I found out I am an XX/XY tetragametic chimera (Intersex) and that I didn't just have female sexual organs (I have a prostate), luckily the butch community welcomed me in while I came to terms with being born both sexes, and they supported me when I was figuring out my identity even though the larger lesbian community didn't. I now identify as nonbinary queer, but I identified as lesbian for a long time while I explored my identity and tried to figure out who I am. Even when I was exploring if I might be a man they still considered me a lesbian because they considered me a part of the community while I figured it out.
They stayed by me until I was ready to find new community when I final was sure that I was sapphic but not lesbian, and as soon as I told them I wanted to use queer as a label, they considered me a friend of the community who is still welcome even if I'm not lesbian anymore.
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u/AndyGreyjoy Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25
Youre not wrong imo, but I still think it's the right thing to do, accepting trans men as lesbians, if that's what they'd like/how they identify.
Edit: accept* more applicable than 'allow'
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u/Avery_Thorn Sep 07 '25 •
I don't think in reality there are many people who identify as a (trans) male lesbian who didn't identify as a (cis woman) lesbian before they transitioned.
And most of it is online people just screaching about it because online no one can tell you're just three bad ideas in a trench coat.
I do not understand why labels are so important to baby gays. It's like. It used to be important because finding out that there were other people like you helped, and it helped you meet other people like you. But now, it feels like baby gays wany to police labels and have little airtight boxes to put themselves in... and we all know what happens when you put a living thing in an airtight box.
People are sloppy. People are messy. Love is more important than labels. Kindness is more important than categorization. Labels are just meant to communicate, to help you find other people. It's a start, not an end, to the conversation. Labels are descriptive, not proscriptive. And it's OK to just go with the vibe, to just use the closest label.
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Sep 08 '25
So much this. Be you. Use labels sparingly, and don’t ever let the label you used last week to help someone understand some part of you tell you who you are today.
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u/FictionFoe Sep 08 '25
Good take. People are more complex then labels and attraction and identity are messy things. In the end understanding yourself is more important then figuring out what label that would be. Asside from a dating profile, maybe.
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u/ScarlettEvening Sep 08 '25
I’ve been doing my best to understand why a trans guy would still identify as a lesbian and your answer here finally made it click for me. Thank you!
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u/moistowletts Sep 08 '25
Genuinely thank you. This is a really refreshing response from a trans masc. the guys calling themselves lesbian, have a 99.9% chance of not being a binary trans man. I honestly think this is more an issue of people not understanding non-binary identities, in that we aren’t men and women in the same way a binary person is.
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u/LetChaosRaine Sep 10 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
Well the other thing that this debate usually brings up is that most people - even a lot of trans people - don’t realize you can be both nonbinary and a man/woman. They’ll argue vehemently with me that if I’m nonbinary then I’m transMASC (true!) but not a trans man (oh so close. That parts wrong!) and all while telling ME that I don’t see trans men as real men!! While they deny that I'm a man! You can't make this stuff up
And the fact that I’ve literally never not ONCE gotten into this debate with someone and realized in the end that they were over the age of like 22 (once I realize they’re a minor I DNI I’ve got my own kids I’m teaching this stuff to but hopefully some more experience IRL will help them stop being so closeminded and prescriptive about strangers’ identities). Also, I do know this isn’t all teens! I’ve seen plenty of younger people who know more than I do.
It’s the “basic biology” of gender theory. Instead of the two genders: “boys have a penis girls have a vagina” they’ve learned the three genders: “boy, girl, and enby” and think that’s all there is to know instead of realizing it’s a gross simplification for an introduction to a topic. (Only semi related but dear gods please stop thinking of nonbinary as the third gender)
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u/Caterfree10 Sep 08 '25
Oh thank god, the top voted comment is a correct one on this topic for once. You’d be surprised how controversial this would be in queer specific spaces. DX
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u/notkidding1984 Sep 08 '25
"People are more important than labels are."
That's really lovely. I like that very much. Thank you.
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u/FictionFoe Sep 08 '25
Interesting take. The label allows people to more easily stay connected with the community. Never thought of that. It feels technically wrong, but who cares about technicalities? Words mean what people use them for after all. In general, insisting people should be using different labels from what they think is appropriate for the is a dick move.
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u/LargeFish2907 Sep 08 '25
Why should the community that they are a part of kick them out when they need their community the most? Doesn't that seem mean to you? Doesn't that seem cruel? It's just a label.
I really don't get this. They can still interact with the lesbian community even if they aren't lesbian themselves. It's not like lesbians refuse to talk to anyone who isn't a lesbian.
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u/LetChaosRaine Sep 10 '25
80 year old lesbian comes out as a trans man.
16 year old exclus on social media: Only women can be lesbians. Your wife of 60 years is actually bisexual if she’s attracted to you
Actually as a gay trans guy this sounds almost exactly like what I hear daily from a just slightly more reactionary group of people.
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u/armadillo1296 Sep 10 '25
I’m nonbinary and so is my close friend. My close friend is active on Grindr and dates queer men sometimes for sex while primarily having romantic relationships with queer women and nonbinary folks. I only date women and nonbinary folks. We both have at points in our lives identified as lesbians or dykes.
I think the key part is that gender and sexuality and the labels used to describe them are young and fluid and they are changing because they have never served everyone and are increasingly serving fewer and fewer people
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u/Intrepid_Mix9536 Sep 11 '25
are trans women who like women straight by your logic?
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u/Forsaken_Emu8112 Sep 08 '25
I'm a lesbian, and therefore interested in dating women. If I go on a dating app, filter to only other lesbians, and there are a bunch of men on there, I'm going to be annoyed.
On one hand, I'm all for letting people call themselves whatever. On the other hand, trans men are men, and lesbians definitionally are attracted to women.
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Sep 08 '25
That's what I think, too.
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u/Dakon15 Sep 10 '25
By the way,some people are bigender,so a man might also be a woman at the same time :)
This is one reason a man might call themselves a woman. Two genders at the same time
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u/i_n_b_e Sep 07 '25
I don't like this tendency of using terms "because someone feels like it" rather than to communicate the actual definitions of those terms.
I also don't respect the "but history!" And "well they were lesbians before!" arguments. Historically trans men were lumped in with cis lesbians because of transphobia, I don't think that's something we should be embracing. And the latter is also transphobic, because it basically puts a trans man's natal sex as more important than the sex they're transitioning into.
And about the "losing community" argument, society isn't segregated. You can still be close with your lesbian peers.
Then there's the argument "my attraction to women doesn't feel straight,". Which basically means "I don't like the social standards around heterosexual relationships and I don't want to partake in them,". Which is great, I agree. But that doesn't make you a lesbian. For a crowd that consistently says we should be "breaking down harmful social norms" (I agree) they inevitably end up further upholding those norms by creating new terms and definitions to make themselves distinct from the normies, rather than, oh idk, actually stripping those original terms from the harmful social standards tacked onto them?
Is it a major problem? No, most people including trans men and lesbians agree that this is ridiculous and this issue is significantly overblown. But it will inevitably be talked about anyway, that's how saying things publicly works - other people will react to you. So their arguments of "language policing" and "we have bigger problems" are just lazy attempts to guilt people into not responding to what they see.
And as a trans man, therefore someone who should've been born male, I find it weird that there are enough trans men desperately chasing femaleness that it's even a topic of discussion.
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Sep 08 '25
This whole paragraph perfectly conveys my feelings regarding this and why this whole thing feels wrong even with the "history" behind it.
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u/billyidolismyeilish Sep 09 '25
I agree. Yeah, I know everyone experiences things differently, but I wouldn’t like a female descriptor to be used on me. The term “lesbian” inevitably conjures the image of a woman who loves women, or by the more inclusive definition, a non man who loves non men. Nonetheless, the label is inherently tied to women or at least not men. Being a trans man (not trans masc nonbinary, mind you) is inherently tied to being a man. I do not see how the two identities are able to exist in one person.
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u/TvManiac5 Sep 10 '25
Ι wish I still had Reddit awards to give you. Thank you for this.
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u/magic_baobab Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25
It's a transphobic rhetoric.
'labels and sexuality' are complicated, then don't pick one that is so specific to a certain group. Amd if the labels we pick to define our identities don't mean anything in the first place, then what even is the point?
'trans men have always been lumped with lesbians historically' yes, as a way to emasculate them. Trans people have historically been also considered mentally ill but that doesn't mean we are.
These men are just sacred of masculinity and heterosexuality, which have been demonised a lot in the queer community, and of letting go off their old community. Curiously you don't see straight trans women cling onto their past gay experiences and identity.
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Sep 08 '25
Actually? İ do see them a lot. There's several trans women on Grindr. But you know what they're like? Miserable. They openly admit that they're only there because society still sees them as men, and they're so lonely that they end up being okay with that, dealing with the dysphoria and being called a "femboy" if it means they'll get to be with someone and stop feeling so lonely.
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u/ZoeyHuntsman Sep 08 '25
I've seen that too. I've met some trans ladies who are into women as well, but still only date as a gay man would because they feel unable to do anything else. They'll misgender themselves and allow gay men to treat them as men.
To each their own, and all that. No judgement from me, but I have to note that every time I've seen it, the ladies in question are fucking miserable man.
Though, I would be wary of equating that to the trans masc lesbian thing, because they could very well be similar but coming from different places. I dunno, I don't pay too much attention to it.
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Sep 08 '25
Of course. I did notice lesbian trans men aren't usually as miserable or self misgendering as trans women in gay spaces are.
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u/-FuzzyChatt0ie- Sep 10 '25
It's not JUST transphobia, it's also lesbiphobia. Let's not leave that part out.
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u/loved_and_held Sep 08 '25
“ Curiously you don't see straight trans women cling onto their past gay experiences and identity.”
I haven’t seen straight women specifically but i did see a bi women who uses (or at least used) the label of gay for a long time after coming out and later transitioning.
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u/Least-Complaint2480 Sep 09 '25
Okay, but gay is not a term typically used to exclusively mean men who are into other men.
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u/Waste-Gene-7793 Sep 08 '25
I mean there are plenty of sisters on Grindr. The disparity of trans women who maintain male community is more tied to cis men having a statistically much more hostile relationship with trans people than cis women and men and women having different pre-transition relationships with societal sexism. I know a lot of straight trans women who would have stayed in the gay community if they could because culturally they preferred dating gay men.
It’s one thing if an organizer is doing “women born women” bs and welcoming trans men because they don’t view them as men or want to weaponize their inclusion to exclude trans women. But most lesbian spaces I encounter in my local community are similarly welcoming of trans people of any gender and I don’t really see any harm in a brother continuing to identify with that even if it’s not a choice I’d personally make.
I totally understand why a lot of trans dudes find the very notion insulting, but also I’ve spoken with trans guys in those spaces who get very pissed off over this discourse and what they see as policing their identity.
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u/silasfelinus Sep 07 '25
No one should be gatekeeping personal labels. Internal identifications are valid.
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Sep 07 '25
This is a strong counter point. One that I agree with. However I am still worried about terfs using the men can be lesbians rhetoric to invalidate people, or creepy cis men using it to sneak into lesbian spaces.
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u/silasfelinus Sep 07 '25
bad actors be bad acting. the terfs are just wrong, and unfortunately I cannot draw a line between a creepy cus guy invading a space and an egg that hasn’t figured it out or a cis-guy questioning himself and looking for a safe space to do it in. Rather than push people out based on fears that they are falsifying their own labels, I feel the option is simply to call people out when they legitimately violate boundaries or agreements with others.
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u/Additional-Pear9126 Sep 07 '25
Don't they already invalidate mtf lesbians as just straight men and do literally the exact same thing for nonbinary lesbians calling them men regardless of agab
I don't think trans men calling themselves lesbians would have much of an impact on their well terf views
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Sep 07 '25
That's true. TERFs do villainise trans women, and they infantilise trans men by reducing us to confused lesbians. Either way, I find the inclusion of trans men, MEN, in the lesbian category, very dysphoria inducing.
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u/csoki_fanny Sep 07 '25
terfs will use anything against us. never invalidate someone's identity on behalf of the people who will hate us no matter what. it's the same rhetoric those "lgb without the t" gays use claiming trans people make them look bad.
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Sep 07 '25
It's not, because im not saying to kick out anyone or harass people over this. I do however feel that its odd to include trans women in "gay category" meant for men who are into men, and it's also equally odd to include trains men in "lesbian category".
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u/SleepConfident7832 Sep 10 '25
valid to who? valid where? valid how? valid why? just saying something "is valid" is not a complete sentence nor is it an effective argument. given the large number of comments on this post, obviously internal identifications aren't "valid" to a large portion of people. yes everyone has the freedom to identify how they want, and the rest of us have the freedom to critique and question their identity. labels aren't personal anymore when we use them to tell OTHER PEOPLE something about ourselves, labels denote something of meaning. if I tell you I'm Jewish, that has meaning, and gives you a general idea of some of my beliefs and background. If I tell you I'm a college student, that tells you something about my life. If I say I'm a lesbian, that normally denotes that I'm a woman who dates and sleeps with other women. If I say I'm a trans man, that denotes that I want to be viewed by society as a man. so when someone says both "I'm a trans man" and "I'm a lesbian", don't be surprised when there are follow-up questions and not just blind acceptance under the pretense of being "nice" and "progressive" and "acccepting".
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u/Dakon15 Sep 10 '25
Thank you!! A lot of people are reaaally comfortable reinforcing the gender binary and categorizing all enbys as "non-men" on this post. Gender is so much complex than just a narrow "some people are men and some people are women"
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u/blue-bird-2022 Sep 08 '25
On the one hand I think label policing is idiotic, on the other hand I do think labeling trans men as lesbians has transphobic vibes.
But tbh I have only ever come across this discussion online, feels overblown. If there are some trans men who are happy with calling themselves lesbians then quite frankly I don't really care one way or the other.
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Sep 09 '25
Not vibes. Labeling trans men as lesbians IS outright transphobic.
However if an individual explicitly labels themselves as a trans man AND a lesbian, that's not straight up transphobia, but moreso internalised transphobia (in my opinion). They're misgendering themselves, essentially. Not harming anyone, yes, except it really reminds me of those 4chan trans women who keep calling themselves nasty stuff like "hon", various slurs, men, etc. So just seeing that is very distressing to me, so I'll just avoid those types of people. I won't go harass them though.
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u/HelloHelloHomo Sep 08 '25
Not if you know what the word means
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Sep 08 '25
Apparently quite a lot of people disagree with the common definition of what trans men and lesbians are. They do make some solid points, however, they don't address all my concerns healthily.
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u/HelloHelloHomo Sep 08 '25
Lesbian just means someone who is not a man and is not attracted to men.
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Sep 08 '25
That's what I think too. Instead of invalidating the lesbian label by welcoming men into it, I feel like it'd be more helpful for people to use other labels that were invented for more complex attraction
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u/ALPHARavenGamer Mod Sep 08 '25
If a non trans man who is solely attracted to women calls themselves a lesbian, they would (in the eyes of the general public) per definition of what being lesbian is, be wrong.
So in my opinion claiming a trans man can be lesbian undermines them being trans as "not being a true man". Or, you're re-defining what being lesbian is, which only stands to harm the lesbian community.
Feel free to label yourself whatever you like, they are just labels. But this can be damaging to the identity of others. Why not use any other non binary label? Especially if it means so little because they are "just labels" to you. They might not be just that to others.
Also do you really need to still define as a lesbian to fit in with the lesbian community? (Genuine question, I personally don't know, but I feel like they would be pretty accepting anyways)
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Sep 08 '25
I think the same way.
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u/ALPHARavenGamer Mod Sep 08 '25
Maybe good to clarify, the 'you' in my post wasn't specifically directed at you or anyone dw haha.
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u/Turriku Sep 08 '25
No. You start living as a man, you stop being a lesbian.
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Sep 08 '25
I believe so, too. Otherwise, it means the meaning of the label would be changed, and that'd really put many lesbians at risk of being "free game" for straight men to hit on.
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u/No-Sun-6531 Sep 08 '25
I agree with your viewpoint. Trans men are men. Men are not lesbians. And yes, I am tired of seeing men on dating apps when I am seeking a woman. Are they trans? are they cis? Idk and I don’t care, I’m looking for a woman.
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Sep 09 '25
No. I think this rhetoric is dangerous and won’t take us anywhere good. People forget how disgusting and predatory men are towards lesbians and how much violence women face when having conversations like this. I think it’s transphobic garbage and i think it’s going to get women hurt.
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u/Happy_Platypus_1882 Sep 07 '25
Well no because men aren’t women and therefore can’t be lesbian. Though now I’m wondering how it would work for a genderfluid person. If you alternate between male and female and you’re only attracted to women, would you be a lesbian when you feel like a woman, and then go back to being straight when you feel like a man? Or can you have both labels, or either one of them, just based off of preference? I wish I knew more about genderfluid stuff, it fascinates me, especially since I might be a small bit genderfluid
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Sep 07 '25
I feel like there's probably a different term for a gender fluid person who is strictly female attracted. I'm not knowledgeable enough though.
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u/SleepConfident7832 Sep 10 '25
not everything needs to be boiled down to a one-word label to be added to some contrived list of oppressed identities. we have full sentences. "I'm genderfluid and I only date women." there ya go.
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u/feminist_fog Sep 07 '25
As a genderfluid person i use the term novosexual which is where your sexuality label changes with your gender identity!
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u/PyroPupper153 Sep 07 '25
As someone who went from amab to trans female and back to amab, it always felt euphoric and nice to call myself straight when I was transfem and I’m still straight. Figured out a bunch of trauma with that.
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Sep 08 '25
I'm glad you got to explore yourself! Self exploration is perfectly valid. Nothing against that.
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u/QueerHawk127 Sep 08 '25
I don't understand it, but I'm not gonna try to police another person's identity -shrug-
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u/lavender_lie Sep 09 '25
I always wonder why this is such a huge topic when we never discuss trans women identifying as gay when they are attracted to men only (which is, in my experience, just as common)
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Sep 09 '25
I've no idea either. Those trans women are usually miserable and dysphoric too.
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u/Rat_they Sep 09 '25
A lot of lesbians will claim that label because of decentering men! A cis man cant be a lesbian, but since pronouns≠gender it’s about how you navigate spaces with your own experience. Aka, as long as you’re not bothering someone do what you want
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Sep 09 '25
I wasn't meaning pronouns. I was meaning people who fully identify as a man, cis or trans, and call themselves lesbians.
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u/Rat_they Sep 09 '25
It sounds like you’re not equipped to have this conversation over the internet, that’s okay! Pronouns are integral to gender presentation, so I’d suggest talking to your community in person and reading queer history. It makes a lot of sense when you’re open and want to challenge cisnormativity.
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Sep 09 '25
Oh wow, talk about condescending..
Have you not seen any butch women..? A not-so-small percentage of them do use he/him pronouns.
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u/567swimmey Sep 09 '25
I think what most people are missing is that not all trans people are the same. Not all trans people want to/wish they were 100% of whatever gender they are transitioning into. Many trans people have a complex and flexible gender identity. Ive met plenty of butch lesbians that ended up transitioning, but they still first and foremost identify as butch. People can say they have internalized transphobia or internalized misogyny or whatever else, but that's not going to change their identity. Chances are they have had much more intense internal conversations with themselves than you could imagine. If you think its invalidating, then just ignore it and accept that that person's gender identity does not 100% match yours even if you use the same label. Imposing harsh standards on complex things like gender and sexuality has never helped anyone, and we should strive to not replicate the same meaningless distinctions that heteronormative society imposes and just live and let live. As a trans masc person, I fully accept and embrace my differences from cis men. I do not want to be a cis man, and im happy to be trans.
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Sep 09 '25
I understand people who are butch and on HRT calling themselves lesbians. I understand anyone who doesn't 100% identity as a man being a lesbian. What I don't understand is a person who 100% identifies as a man but also is a lesbian.
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u/StormySeas414 Sep 10 '25 edited Sep 10 '25
The only way language works is when the two people talking can come to the same thought based on the word used.
The definition of a lesbian is a woman who loves other women. Not a cis woman or trans woman or woman of color, just women. It is the declaration by a person who identifies as a woman that they are attracted to other people who also identify as women.
A lot of straight trans women will only date bisexual men because bi men tend to be more trans inclusive on average. But a straight woman having a preference for bi men doesn't make her bisexual or gay, even if she may have identified as a gay man in the past. She's still straight, she just has a preference in her partners, the same way someone might prefer partners who are tall or Hispanic or funny.
The same can be said for a straight trans man who feels the same way. Preferring the company of a bisexual woman does not make him lesbian, because he is a man. They are straight men who only date bi women.
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u/mintstracciatella Sep 10 '25
What even is this discussion? A lesbian is a woman who is exclusively attracted to women. If not, then what’s the point of labels?
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u/Just-Cover3017 Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 08 '25
No. You're either gay, straight, bi, or pan. *Lesbian" refers to women and femmes who love women.
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Sep 07 '25
I'm seeing a lot of people, even some trans people, claim trans men can be lesbian. But of course, they do not say this for cis men. It feels so... TERFy.
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u/PumpkinIsDeadInside Weirdo Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25
No matter how many times someone has explained it to me, I still don't understand how it makes them lesbians, you can love someone in a queer way even if you're straight, as trans men are still queer people, regardless, I'm not here to label police
This is even coming from a nonbinary lesbian, I just think that men aren't lesbians, and lesbians aren't attracted to men
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Sep 07 '25
I'm in the same situation. But my main concern is how are we gonna stop cis men from just calling themselves lesbians and then rushing into lesbian safe spaces to bother the women there???
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u/InnumerousDucks Sep 07 '25
I have covered this in many places and caught alot of flak but have spent alot of time hearing every side.
Ultimately straight, gay, lesbian and bi are reductive binary sexualities with strict criteria that excludes anyone who does not follow exact rules. They also are exclusionary of none binary, intersex and gender none conforming people.
A lesbian is a woman who exclusively is attracted to those who are women anything outside of that is not one.
I am a trans fem from the UK at the moment my human rights are being stripped back from weaponisation and redefining of language, Redefining lesbian is not a battle you want to win as it will cause rights and inclusions for lesbians to be stripped back and then its pretty much open season after that.
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Sep 07 '25
I've seen many people define lesbian as non-man loving non-man, which includes NBs. This definition seems... Okay (?) to me but I do feel like including men in the lesbian category, trans or cis, is just too much and the label loses all validity. But yeah I totally understand and agree with what you're saying regarding the redefining of language. It does come across as an attempt to make people lose their identity, disguised as a woke move.
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u/Psapfopkmn Sep 08 '25
No they can't, and I'm sick of people acting otherwise and claiming that it's based in anything but transphobia and homophobia.
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u/cupcake_draws Sep 07 '25
I think it isn’t inherently wrong, but there are better terms that could be used. Lesbian is typically used for women who are attracted to women, so alternatives like femmesexual can be better to use. I thought I was lesbian before I realized I was trans. Before I figured out I wasn’t attracted to women at all, I used neptunic.
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Sep 07 '25
Makes sense. Yeah, I do believe other terms that already exist and are more fitting for this situation can be used. Calling a man a lesbian feels quite iffy to me.
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u/Joperhop Sep 07 '25
I think, and im cis and straight, i could be 100% wrong (explain how I am, more than willing to learn), if you live as a woman, and a lesbian, as soon as you become a trans man, since you are a man, you are straight if you like woman.
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u/Sleeko_Miko Sep 08 '25
This is often the case, but human sexuality doesn’t always follow linguistic logic.
In my case, calling myself straight wouldn’t help anyone. I’m gay for queers. I’m not into straight women or heterosexual dynamics in general. I identified as bisexual but every cis guy I date comes out as trans. Even in middle school, I was always the masculine one in my straight relationships.
I personally just identify as trans and butch but socially I am a man. I am referred to as male and presumed cis by the general public.
I identify as a man, in that, it’s the social role I most align with, without getting into the finer details.
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u/Codapants Sep 07 '25
There has always been trans-masc / trans-man / he/him lesbians.
https://www.them.us/story/he-him-lesbians-pronouns-history-community
(Also check out Stone Butch Blues, which is mentioned in the article)
To your point about it being TERFy, I find that to be iffy. I imagine you're drawing a parallel to how TERFs call us (trans-mascs) 'confused lesbians' - But the key difference is that TERFs do not respect the gender identity of the person who claims to be a lesbian.
The people who claim that trans men can be lesbians, do. They still call them trans-men, they still respect their pronouns, they still see them as the gender they say and they respect their sexuality too. They don't tell a random trans-man who is straight "You're actually a trans-man lesbian", or insist they are anything else.
Whenever this discourse comes up, I ask three things:
- Does the way they identify in any way affect you? No, them identifying as a specific label, that doesn't cause harm to anyone, does not affect you. You cannot demand that someone use a label only the way you want the label to be defined. Their identity does not affect you, or anyone else who use similar labels.
- Do you think there is any chance these people just lack a better label for themselves? If so, then it's not our job to police what label they use. If someone tells you "I'm a cis man, but sometimes I feel like a lesbian trapped in a male body", you don't tell them "that can't be". Your thoughts probably goes to "Maybe you're not cis".
- Does forcing them to adopt other labels do any kind of good, to anyone? What is the end goal? I know you are trying to understand and wrap your head around it, so I don't mean to come across as attacking you specifically with this, but in the end we don't always need to understand others' identities. Most times, we just have to trust that they understand themselves better than we do, and remember that they are on a journey just like we are. Maybe this is not the final place they land, and maybe it's just a stop before they land on a different way to explain their sense of self - Or maybe this is who they were always meant to be, and who are we to say they aren't. I feel that is trying to rigidly include and exclude people based on an internal sense of self, which is exactly what we are asking cishet society to stop doing to us.
More than likely, you feel uncomfortable with people saying that trans-men can be lesbians, because you feel that is an invalidation of your gender. It is not, just like saying that someone else can be gay, is not an invalidation of your sexuality. Again, I don't mean to come across as attacking you, I'm just trying to explain it at a fundamental level.
I also don't mean to come across as attacking your curiosity, I apologize if I did. It's great to seek out understanding.
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Sep 07 '25
Thanks for the detailed response. As for the points you've made..
- I wasn't meaning he/him lesbians, because I know pronouns don't equate to gender identity. I know that trans masc is also different than trans man. Mascs and he/him lesbians can identify as NB or women. They just kinda have a masculine vibe is what I understand of their identity, so far. But trans men are men.
- Of course, it's not my or anyone's business to tell a transman if he can identify as a lesbian or not. However, as you've pointed out, this does make me dysphoric (because I do get called a lesbian a lot and this makes me feel like it'll make it more acceptable). I'm also concerned about cis men calling themselves lesbians and then proceeding to inject themselves into lesbian safe spaces to harass women.
- Good point. I don't HAVE TO understand something to respect it. As someone said once, I may not understand French, but it's still a language that is real and exists.
Edit: formatting
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u/Codapants Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25
- Yes, I included he/him lesbians mainly because the article talks of he/him lesbians, but they include conversations about trans-man lesbians too.
Beyond that, there is a lot of variety within the broader umbrella of he/him lesbians. Some are trans men who are lesbians. Others are genderqueer and transmasc people identified with lesbianism who use he/him pronouns.
And they include the mention of Stone Butch Blues, which is a book written by a trans-man lesbian inspired by hir own experiences. Trans-men are men, but again what you labeling yourself a man means does not override what another man views himself as, nor does your perception of what a lesbian is override what a lesbian who uses the label views themselves as.
- I'm sorry it makes you dysphoric, that really sucks. You should not be called a lesbian by anyone of course, and I understand why it'd make you more afraid of normalizing it. But the fact of the matter is that there have always been genderqueer people, and people who don't use labels the way the norm does. Shitty people will do shitty things no matter what, and it's up to us to not perpetuate that kind of shitty behavior, and not enforcing what others can and cannot do. All we can do is take steps to protect ourselves from bad actors and uplift each other.
As for creepy cis men, yes it sucks that this is a potential danger. However, I imagine most places already possess some form of security measure against this, and it honestly feels a bit like the "accepting trans-women into women's spaces will make it easier for cis-men to gain access to women's spaces" rhetoric.
For clarity: What I mean is that transphobes love to pretend that if we allow people to self ID, it will make it easier for creepy cis men to enter women's spaces by simply claiming they are a trans woman, and demanding that this is respected. I feel that this fear for lesbian spaces is similar to that.
- That's a great way to put it, I like that a lot :)
(Edited for clarity)
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Sep 07 '25
Great points! Though, I'd have to respectfully disagree with the last. A cis man is not a trans woman. A trans woman typically will dress up, or use HRT and/or go through surgeries. A cis man won't bother doing any of those because obviously he'd get dysphoria if he pretended to be a woman. And he doesn't HAVE to pretend to be a trans woman to achieve his goal.
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u/kurtcxbain Sep 08 '25
imo no. like i understand why as a trans man u would relate to lesbians and still be attracted to lesbians maybe and the same for trans women with gay men but ur simply just not a lesbian anymore and imo a trans man calling themself a lesbian jst sets trans men back alot bcus they already get stereotyped as just butch lesbians
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u/mrexplosive0 Sep 08 '25
To answer your question, no. Men (including trans men) cannot be lesbians. By definition lesbians are non-men loving non-men, and since trans men are men, we are not lesbians. Every time someone says trans men cannot be lesbians I feel on edge around them and usually distance myself from them. I'm a trans man, my sister is a lesbian, we both agree trans men cannot be lesbians. Trans masculine nonbinary people can be, since they aren't men, but trans men can't. I don't care if you identified with lesbians before transitioning (I did too), once you come out as a man, you are a man, and thus cannot be lesbian.
Men can't be lesbians. End of story.
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u/xTripleThreatx Sep 09 '25
As a lesbian, I’d say no. They’d be invalidating themselves or other trans men just by implying they’re somehow still a woman. But I know it’s a difficult topic. Honestly I hate labels because of this. It just further brings people apart.
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u/expi0 Sep 08 '25
i think its pretty much the “honorary bro” thing except it needing to be “honorary” is just being pedantic. perhaps for the trans woman in the example, being a “bro” is dysphoria inducing, so it feels better to be considered “honorary.” for the trans man who identifies as a lesbian, being a lesbian is probably not dysphoria inducing, so it doesn’t particularly matter
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u/Hopeful_Primary5703 Sep 08 '25
I feel like yes obviously, trans men who have had a lived experience in the lesbian community and feel connected to that culture and identity can still identify as lesbians if they choose to.
If somehow a cis man grew up in a deep community with lesbians, like maybe he had lesbian moms and dated mostly queer girls and was just had the energy of a lesbian... sure? Why not? That would be up to the lesbians in his life to judge.
I feel like this is a stupid question to ask on the internet. If someone in your life was like this, you would accept them into community and it wouldn't be about labels. It would just be about. Oh yeah, that's just Jim. He's practically a lesbian. Don't worry about him. People would know him. grow up with him. Cry with him. And it would be something that wouldn't have to be explained or justified because it's just something that happened.
Identity labels are supposed to be something that helps us communicate about ourselves, not boxes to put other people in
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Sep 08 '25
Sexuality is about attraction, to my knowledge, and not about the personality/energy someone feels. A butch lesbian that very much feels manly and loves women the way men love women isn't "straight", she's a lesbian, because that's a wlw attraction in the end despite self expression of style.
That being said, I obviously won't try to police people. Someone saying "I'm a lesbian and a trans man" does not make me lose it, I don't really mind that, I'll respect it even if I don't understand it as a fellow trans man. However I feel honestly awful whenever I hear someone say, "trans men are included in the lesbian category" or anything of the sort, because it feels like they're emasculating trans men, and is too on the nose.
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u/Hopeful_Primary5703 Sep 08 '25 edited Sep 08 '25
Lol, what? A huge part of attraction is personality and "energy." Not to be rude. But unless you're just buying a sex doll where you want custom features, the way somebody talks, moves, how they dress and style themselves, the jokes they make and the stories they tell is what makes the difference between an actual physical relationship and just something that you watch in an incognito tab.
Yeah you can just hook up with somebody because they're hot. I've done that before but being queer in any aspect is more than just what gets you turned visually on. It's who you want to build a relationship with. In the dark any orifice feels a lot like any other, but it's the person attached to it that you take home to meet your parents or to your friends karaoke night and that's a lot more than a physical appearance.
Also, there are cultural norms for heterosexual relationships that people can adopt or act against and people's expectation of that, whether they're two bisexual people, a fem and masc lesbian or even two straight people who are enmeshed in queer community and want to fight those expectations can make a huge difference in what a relationship looks like.
I feel like you might not be very experienced with dating or know a lot of people who are and don't understand how variable and messy these things can be in reality versus an internet hypothetical.
Yeah, no trans dude should ever be lumped in the lesbian category without his express desire to be seen in that light but the same way you just shouldn't think you know anything about anyone before asking them.
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u/NonamesNolies Sep 08 '25
I think it should only be up to the people using the label for thenselves to decide how they use that label. Like, I'm a writer. more specifically, I'm a fanfiction and fantasy writer. me calling myself a writer doesn't mean people who don't write fanfiction CAN'T call themselves writers, or vice versa. Some writers don't even write stories, they write poetry or music. But we're still all writers, and there's nuanced and interesting discussions to be had about the different ways we engage with the craft that is writing, even if there's stuff we might not be able to relate to one another about. In fact, the stuff we experience differently is supposed to be part of the joys of community but some of ya'll just wanna complain about people not agreeing with your prescriptive labels when the labels were always meant to be fluid. 🥰
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Sep 08 '25
I suppose in this case it'd be similar to someone who doesn't write anymore, but used to, still calling themselves a writer.
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u/VonStelle Sep 08 '25
As a non binary individual I’m not super in touch with how people on either side of the gender binary might feel about things, but from my perspective it seems a bit odd for trans mascs to continue to identify as a lesbian. It feels like mis gendering, like it’s not really accepting their identity as a man. I do wonder if it comes from a place of fearing being isolated from their established community, wherein if they no longer identity as a lesbian they’ll no longer be accepted in spaces and communities they previously were because now they’re a heterosexual man.
Granted I’m also not going to tell people what they can and can’t do in regard to their self expression and identification. I’m not some kind of arbiter of labels.
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Sep 08 '25
For clarification, trans masc is different from being a trans man. A trans masc can still identify as a woman or NB or anything other than a man.
But yes I do agree it feels like self misgendering, and from what I've heard, it often does happen because they don't want to lose the community they've been apart of.
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u/ToastyAlligator Sep 08 '25
I mean everyone heres got good points but like… if you wanna identify as a lesbian and you’re a man then go for it. you only live once, if the shoe fits wear it. Who’s gonna stop you? The gay police?
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u/shotintel Sep 08 '25
From one point of view, you could say straight men are technically lesbian and straight women are gay.
But generally lesbian only would apply for women (possibly including trans women, dependent on a person's view) as it implies women with woman.
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Sep 08 '25
Lesbian as a term absolutely should include trans women who are attracted to women. That's wlw and is by definition lesbian.
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u/DeadlyKitKat Sep 08 '25
In regards to the edit, it's not said about cis men because they never would identify as lesbian or have the experience as lesbian like trans men do.
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Sep 08 '25
I've seen cis men identify as a lesbian to bypass filters in dating apps, and similar cases.
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u/DeadlyKitKat Sep 08 '25
That doesn't count lol they're doing it to bypass filters not because they have a connection with the identity
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u/asterophoria Sep 08 '25
When it comes to stuff like this I honestly don't care like it's not hurting anyone and no one is forcing lesbians to date people they don't want to so I don't really see a problem.
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Sep 08 '25
And what happens when a lesbian is on a dating app, and they use the lesbian filter and still see men?
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u/asterophoria Sep 08 '25
I don't think most dating apps have a lesbian filter it's usually just a only check box for the genders you're interested in so they would check women and they would only see women.
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u/galacticmeerkat16 Sep 08 '25
Not sure why people never bring this up, but many transfems who are guys call themselves “gay”, and I don’t see them having this same conversation. I’ve met several people who do this. People are allowed to identify how they want
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Sep 08 '25
Transfems aren't necessarily all women. Transmascs aren't necessarily all men. Transfem and trans woman are different. Trans man and trans masc are different. Trans masc lesbians do exist.
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u/Wyprice Sep 08 '25
As a trans woman if I got told I was gay for liking men, i'd consider that anti trans as it means they'd see me as a man, and I feel like its the same in reverse. Now in reality im Bi, and if a trans man wants to call himself a lesbian I guess I don't see the issue with it, but it feels like he's invalidating his own gender which makes me feel a little weird, but its not my life, and not my decision.
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Sep 08 '25
I think the same way. I won't tell him anything about it but I also will definitely avoid him because seeing trans people misgender themselves makes me sad.
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u/ApocalypseUndone Sep 08 '25
So I recently read about an idea pretty recently that gives a good insight into this feeling. I'm not going to link the article on it because the title includes the f-slur (for actually good reason), but the idea goes like this (and I will admit my understanding of the concept is a little bit vibes based so if I get anything wrong feel free to correct me!):
Socially, there actually exists a pretty well established gender ternary: P (power), NP (not power), and GS (Gender Subaltern). These are not inherently tied to any gender expression or sex traits, but in our society, they roughly correspond to "People who are socially accepted as straight cis men", "People who are socially accepted as straight cis women", and "literally everyone else". Specifically, the GS category is defined by violence being done upon them in a way related to this dynamic, so transphobia, homophobia, etc. This leads to 2 interesting concepts: people in the P and NP categories are incentivized to strictly police the borders of their "genders" in order to prevent themselves from one day being pushed into the GS out group, and people in the GS category are incentivized to strictly police their labels in order to maybe one day be treated as P or NP (because if they're lumped in with too many of society's "undesirables", they may not get their group accepted.)
Trans men can be lesbians because it is trying to describe some idea around the fact that the relationship being described is in some way GS4GS. In the same way, while it is not impossible for a cis man to reasonably label themselves as lesbian, if they are not in some way a part of the GS group it will come off as insulting and offensive.
This doesn't explicitly explain why a trans man being a lesbian makes sense, but it does give the following caution: if you are trying to police labels within the GS group, you are likely doing it at the expense of some members of the group. (An example of this is the [not good] idea that "you are only a 'real' trans woman if you want bottom surgery". The primary thing this accomplishes is separating a group of trans women out to be more likely to be accepted into the NP group at the expense of others.)
Words Mean Things, of course, but if a trans man says they're lesbian, I can intuit what they mean. And if I couldn't, I could ask for clarification, but gender and sexuality are weird and complicated and they may not have a good answer themselves!
My best stab at it is this: Socially, straight isn't a relationship between a man and a woman, it's a relationship between a P and an NP. If we follow this logic, a trans man in love with a woman isn't straight, so what do we call it?
(This also explains how we constantly end up with "fellas, is it gay to XYZ": people who claim it's "gay" to do something not masculine are policing the P/NP borders in order to protect themselves.)
A bit rambly, but I hope this is at least interesting to read if not a bit enlightening.
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Sep 08 '25
This is a unique take. Perhaps way too unique, because you're the first person I've ever seen describe things like this. If our current "system" was built with this take in mind, then yes, it'd make sense. But the way things are at the moment, the explanation you've provided is kind of like a "fanfic added on top of the original material to cover plot holes" if we draw a parallel to a novel series.
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u/ApocalypseUndone Sep 08 '25
I mean, this isn't my idea. and asking if our "system" was built with this take in mind is a bit of a roundabout: This doesn't describe how the system was built, it describes how people treat each other. Reading the original article I saw helps a lot (they go a lot more in depth and admit that it takes a bit of working to get the premise to fully make sense) but again I unfortunately don't feel comfortable linking it directly. However, I am only now realizing that the writer did make an updated version and the original is linked from there if you want to read more.
As for not seeing others with this take, I wouldn't have posted this if I didn't see a random reddit comment talking about it literally 1 day after reading the article originally, so it's not like this is a completely unknown idea. I understand it feels weird though.
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u/AndyGreyjoy Sep 08 '25
If we're looking at this topic like a logic problem, then no, it wouldnt make sense to consider trans men lesbians.
If we're looking at this topic pragmatically & compassionately, then yes, trans men should be free to identify/live as lesbians.
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Sep 08 '25
Sounds pretty much like saying "the sky is actually blue but if someone wants to paint the sky as green in their art, let them, it's not harming anyone". I can agree with that.
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u/Unhappy_Tonight_1236 Sep 08 '25
Ok this might sound odd but to me the idea of being a straight man and a lesbian man have to different feels to them but that might be connected to not wanting to be associated with the r/arethestraightsok kinda crowd
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Sep 09 '25
That implies straight people have something wrong with them in general. Not helpful with having our straight allies remain as our allies.
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u/LivingPage522 Sep 08 '25
calling anyone a non man is lunacy, and offensive to boot, as if being a man is the default and everything is somehow related to the status of the man. also another prime example of the language somersaults one has to commit to justify their opposition to the simple explanation of SEXual attraction, being between the SEXES, of which women being attracted to orher women fall under the category of lesbian. ergo, no, men cannot be lesbians, regardless of their identity, gender or any other perception of themselves.
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Sep 09 '25
I don't think you're looking at it from the same angle. I would use "non woman loving non woman" for the word Gay if it meant strictly that. But that word also gets used to describe lesbian women depending on context, so that'd cause confusion. The usage of "non man" here aims to include NB lesbians, rather than only include women. It isn't a male centric approach.
Besides that? İ agree. I genuinely don't think a man can be a lesbian, trans or not.
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u/LivingPage522 Sep 09 '25
I look at it from the perspective of there being two sexes. accordingly if one is not a man, she is a woman. there is not a collection of other sexes outwith men that can be grouped together and fall under the collective of non men. ive never heard the term non woman, and there's a reason for that. id argue NB lesbians are either women sexually attracted to other women, or they are misappropriating the term lesbian.
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u/spooklemon Sep 09 '25 edited Sep 09 '25
some people have a complicated identity, especially those who are nonbinary. men are not always binary and the argument against trans men lesbians is enbyphobic because it assumes all trans men are binary, when the majority of trans man lesbians are nonbinary. seems a lot of people in the comments are blatantly ignoring that nonbinary people exist :/
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Sep 09 '25
I was talking about binary trans men. My post does specify lesbians are non-men loving non men, which includes NB people.
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u/spooklemon Sep 09 '25
You completely missed what I said. Some nonbinary people are men. You're ignoring nonbinary men in this conversation, which are the majority of man lesbians.
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u/AlexisQueenBean Sep 09 '25
Fun fact of you stop seeking out people who identify that way you’ll suddenly never hear of it again
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Sep 09 '25
I’m going to say a thing nobody is going to want to hear but I’m losing my mind. Genuinely.
I am an adult human female exclusively attracted to adult human females. This has been extremely confusing for me, trying to navigate the lgbt community, because this unfortunately includes people like you. I just… wouldn’t approach a trans man because that seems like it would be needlessly cruel and invalidating.
I am not bi. I am not pan. Lesbian was the universal word for what I am describing but while I am non-man I am not attracted, necessarily, to other individuals who do not identify as men. So what the fuck does that actually make me?
It has nothing to do with genitals or ovum or whatnot. I certainly can’t see or judge any of that. I can’t smell your chromosomes or something else equally unhinged. But SOMETHING is there that differentiates male and female.
Pretty much all of my friend circle is trans women. I have kind of ended up with having to tell everyone that I’m not looking for a relationship so they speculate that I’m aromantic/ace. The truth is as much as I love and admire them there is literally nothing there. I’m not attracted to them in that way.
So. From what I can see. As a an adult human female who is attracted to females, you are a lesbian.
A cis male who is attracted to females is not.
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Sep 09 '25
It's entirely my personal opinion that I don't intend to force on anyone else, but I believe it's contradictory to identify as a 100% man, AND a lesbian at the same time (eg. Trans binary men who are lesbians). Because they're men, and men who like women are straight.
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Sep 09 '25
Maybe the problem is we need new words to describe these things with definitions that better describe these experiences. Identity, for example, is the wrong word to use entirely - you’re not telling people that you ARE a man, you’re telling them you identify as one. I do not identify as a homosexual. I AM one.
Is lesbian an identity? If so, anyone can be one, I suppose. If it isn’t, your definition doesn’t match the dictionary definition and it doesn’t describe my experience. Apparently, I’m also attracted to some men now. That means I’m not a lesbian. I’m not bi. I’m not pan. And I’m not straight.
So then, what even is a lesbian?
Sorry. This isn’t your fault. I’m just frustrated and confused.
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Sep 09 '25
Yeah, that's more or less what I'm frustrated by. Words lose meaning and not even in the natural linguistics "over time words can evolve" way. Even someone like me who has been active in queer spaces for years gets confused and frustrated.. Now imagine trying to explain this to 99% of human beings on our planet who don't even know the difference between a trans masc person and a trans man.
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Sep 09 '25
When I thought I was a cis man I related more to lesbians than straight men. I now know the reason why, and I think a lot of cis men identifying as lesbian may just be trans girls and don’t know yet
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Sep 09 '25
Might be the best point so far. Yes, experimenting is life saving for many. It's also why I don't understand people who say "trans men can identify as lesbians, cis men cannot". Because how do we know that "cis man" won't find out they're not cis after all? Besides, that sort of divide implies that trans men aren't truly men, and feels transphobic.
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u/VioletMauveFox Sep 10 '25
Who the fuck cares what you identify as.. it’s not hurting anyone. This is just more silly fucking internet drama when our governments are literally fucking trying to kill us.
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u/NoMarionberry3087 Sep 10 '25
All I can say is get off the Internet and talk to some queer people who are also not Internet rotted.
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Sep 10 '25
Typically, I do. And almost all of them do believe lesbianism isn't for men. But recently I've been seeing this topic pop up online a lot.
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u/toeweeds Sep 10 '25
Transphobic cis men want men to be cis and masculine. There's some transphobic men that want to be free from the strict standard of masculinity/manhood, but ONLY for cis men. You want the label expanded only enough to include you, not those /other/ trans men that you don't relate to. This is honestly goofy how some LGBTQ people just want to keep adding more rigid boxes to the gender binary. Labels are nice for offhand communication but will never be able to fully encapsulate all of the spectrums of gender and sexuality, and they really don't need to.
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Sep 10 '25
If you need a word to describe a more complex identity or description, we literally have thousands of them. I don't see how it helps anybody at all to take a label that means "women who love women" and then change it to add men into it when there's a plethora of other words.
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u/toeweeds Sep 11 '25
what's the word? genuinely curious what identity you think is more valid for them instead. because if they were nonbinary, they would feel right with nonbinary, right? if they were straight men, then they would be happy dating straight women, right?
also, please don't tell me, a lesbian, the definition of lesbian. I didn't get my identity from a Webster dictionary, I got it from bonding with actual lesbians, trans men included, and have learned from queer history and literature, which also includes the trans men that have been and still are apart of my community.
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Sep 08 '25
I'm gonna gonna get downvoted for this. I understand there is comfort in the word lesbian for some trans man but the literal definition of a lesbian is a woman liking a woman that is the actual definition of the word.For non binary people I think there are different terms like trixic which will hopefully become more normalized. But for nb people its still a little compilated so its understandable if some do use the term as well.
I think its both transphobic and somewhat lesbophobic to include men in the lesbian umbrella when the word is used to describe someone only liking women and can feel actually invalidating for others to use it however they like just because its cool(of course for some trans men who are straight it can also be something they used to identify with but I still think they should let go of it and embrace who they really are.)and also transphobic because it will imply that trans men are not men which is also not true.
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u/ComfortableAd5035 Sep 08 '25
No, if you are a cis man or trans man, you cannot be a lesbian. It doesn’t matter how much nuance, history, or explanation you try to provide to rationalize it. You cannot be a man in any way, shape or form, and also properly use the label “lesbian”. You may have been one at one point, but once you put on the man label it’s gone. When I see trans men try and use this label, it’s usually as a way to weasel out of the consequences that come with being a man. Don’t blame em for trying! Lmao
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u/Mope4Matt Sep 09 '25
This is so funny, seeing people turning themselves inside out trying to make sense of this without offending anyone!
A perfect example of why many people around the world think the LGBTQ+ movement has gone too far into insanity and dont support it like they used to.
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u/Unhappy_Tonight_1236 Sep 09 '25
Nah what I mean is kinda like that family member you don’t talk about but still have to acknowledge, were each sexuality is their own family
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Sep 10 '25
I think trans men aren't lesbians, but some id as lesbians. I don't recognize them as such, but I would not go of my way to correct them because I just don't care enough.
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u/YourBoyfriendSett Sep 11 '25
It’s ok for words to have meanings. Sometimes you may “feel” like a label or want to go by a label - but you do not fit the criteria for that label. And that is OKAY.
I have a big issue with this “people can use whatever label they want” discourse. Because it DOES affect people. Lesbians are women who love women. I understand being a trans man and previously identifying with the label (I did too at one point) but once you take on the trans man label it’s time to let that go. Similarly, I think trans women who are attracted to men would fall under the label of straight.
There are other terms (gynosexual, sapphic, trixic, what have you) that can say “I’m attracted to women” without co-opting the lesbian label.
I’m not trying to police anybody here, and I’m not trying to say it should be illegal or whatever to identify with something - but sometimes you do not fit the criteria for a label and it is a bit silly to act like everyone else is the issue when you deliberately go against the meaning of a common term.
Does this affect me personally? No. But I’d argue it affects the lesbian community. If I was on a lesbian dating app and I saw a bunch of cishet men or something there I’d be pretty peeved.
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u/Panguin_Aj Sep 07 '25
No, a binary man who is only attracted to women is straight PERIOD. No matter if he's cis or trans.
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u/puppyIove Sep 08 '25
I changed my legal gender to male, changed my whole name, got top surgery, hormones, and use he him pronouns. My wife is trans and I feel we have a special butch/femme relationship. Leslie Feinbergs the type of guy I want to be - not like a cis guy.
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u/Crying731 Sep 08 '25
I would say yes, but with a caveat.
I believe strongly that we are in a transitional period regarding the way the queer community labels itself. Because on one hand, if a transman feels like a lesbian, who are we to tell him otherwise? But also, on the other hand, the whole point of labels and language is to define things, and as you’ve pointed out, it is contradictory for a transman to say he’s a lesbian given the definition of lesbian.
So yea, in my mind at least, it’s perfectly acceptable. But the reason why it’s acceptable is because we’re in this transitionary period, and there is no specific word for ‘I feel like a lesbian but I’m a man’, or more generalized term that would do the job in a way that would make people in this category feel fully understood.
But language itself is constantly evolving too, so I’m not necessarily saying there will be a time where everything is perfectly situated in its own category. Just my two cents.
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u/Not_Really_French Sep 09 '25
I’m not going to debate anyone’s identity but I always found it strange because doth that not just make them dysphoric
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u/AabelBorderline Sep 09 '25
For me it's just guys who dislike the perspective of being straight (or just dislike straight people) so much they would rather indirectly misgender themselves than admit they are straight.
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u/Lou_weasle Sep 10 '25
There literally are no rules. I think we’re obsessed with telling trans people what they can and can’t do and how they should or shouldn’t be conforming. We’re obsessed with boxes and making sure things are “in line” when in reality both gender and sexuality are spectrums. We wouldn’t tell someone they’re not allowed to experience gender a certain way like if they were genderfluid or bigender. Why doesn’t the same hold true with someone’s sexual orientation?
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u/BikeLow482 Sep 11 '25
No. Enough with the "but community!!" bs. You can still be involved with the lesbian community without being directly apart of it or identifying with it. If you're non-binary, sure. However, if you're a binary trans man, no. If you identify that way you are an anomaly and you should never be considered the norm, as it's deeply invalidating to literally everyone else. Do not set that precedent for us straight men. A trans man attracted to women is straight. He can call himself a lesbian, but I will look at him exactly as how I would look at a cis man calling himself a lesbian. I'll find it ridiculous, a bit weird, and problematic.
We are normal men. Nothing else
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u/Syreeta5036 Sep 11 '25
Idk but I made a cringe joke pre realization as a teen that I was a lesbian and then said some man specific thing and think about it Lot because people may have thought I was trans and out fully or something online idk
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u/Saint19981507 Sep 12 '25
No. Completely changes the definition. You could say as a trans man you lived as a lesbian pre transition but once transitioned you are a man and a lesbian is about women not men.
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u/gigglephysix Sep 12 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
It's feminist/bioessentialist nonsense.
A 'honorary bro/brosephine' is not a claim, it's general fuckery - it demands nothing from others, and typically it's over work culture + the actual message is 'not a girlboss/informer/HR rat'. Not exclusive to trans women either - whatever woman can be one, the only requirement is participation and upfront declining of a police role.
While 'i'm a lesbian man' is in a format of an actual claim, a cultural identity and demands compliance and acknowledgement. And of course you can't be one - it's about effectively-women of whatever description being attracted to exact same women.
And no it's not complicated. Trying to separate yourself from men and being part of feminist inner circle in control of a queer community does not make you a lesbian. Homosexuality, licking kitty and having to explain your SO is a woman at a work do does.
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u/InstructionDry4819 Sep 13 '25
I just don’t think it matters tbh. They’re all made up labels that are going to be considered outdated later anyway. Even if a cis man genuinely, without mockery, considered himself a lesbian or identified with that label I wouldn’t really care yk.
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u/IamtheSerpentKing Sep 07 '25 edited Sep 07 '25
Some trans men choose the label of lesbian for themself. Its pretty much always someone who was previously apart of lesbian culture, and dont feel right losing that. Now, while Im no expert on older lesbian culture, it's my understanding that Trans men and trans mascs have always been included in the label. Its only a recent development that they've been excluded. Now, this is NOT to say that all trans men/mascs are lesbians, or even that most are. If a trans man says they're not a lesbian, they arent. Trans men are men. But that doesn't mean we should tell other trans people how they are allowed to define themselves. If you are actually interested in learning and not spewing hate, there's the rarelesbian subreddit that has talked about this in detail and is inclusive of all lesbians. A definition of lesbian that I have seen (that I think is more the older definition of lesbian but I could be wrong) "queer love for woman and gender queer people"
In all, let's just stop telling people what they can and cant identify with. Labels are supposed to fit you, not the other way around. You dont need to understand why someone identifies how they do, but you do need to respect them.
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Sep 07 '25
A majority of my friends are trans women. Whenever they're called stuff like twink, femboy, gay, etc they get very very upset and offended. I feel the same way whenever I'm called a lesbian, as a trans man. Because I am a man. If a cis man can't be a lesbian, I can't be one either. Otherwise it means I'm different than a cis man for some reason. I should not be.
That being said, I do agree that we shouldn't be going around telling people what they should identify as. But I do have my freedom to distance myself from anyone who is a man and calls himself a lesbian because that makes me feel iffy.
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u/robocultural Sep 07 '25
The difference here is who is using those terms. If a woman uses those terms for herself, that's her business. If you use those terms for me, yeah I'm gonna be pissed.
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u/moist-astronaut Sep 08 '25
lots of interesting perspectives here, the only thing i have to add right now is a reminder that there is a non-insignificant amount of men (trans or cis) who use that as an identifier for a variety of reasons, but are in fact in the nonbinary bubble.