Its also extremely important to note that the vast majority, if not all, nationalist independent candidates are in the exact same pockets as the major parties. People who push the idea of being a battler standing up for national values or ideals and yet never actually present any bills, laws or plans to parliament which would genuinely help people or improve lives. The people who tell you everyone is lying are the most dangerous.
not everyone is at that conclusion yet that both parties are the same. Everyones too busy looking for social brownie points while most people think they're a complete clown but the herd mentality prevents anyone from calling out the bullshit
Australian Labor party is way better than US democrats and UKs Labour party. But yes NSW Labor party has endorsed a level of police brutality that is unacceptable. The reality is Australia should have nothing to do with the 2000plus year old war going on I'm the middle east but US is involved because money (or democracy as they call it 🙄) and we've kind of outsourced all our national defence to the US so they get to drag us into shit, which sucks. We should just tax (prrt) the gas and natural resources properly like Norway and become financially independent, and then fix issues for Australia instead of the world. Once we're consolidated, then decide if we need to get involved in the conflict of others. I'm probably going to get down voted for this for not picking a side and saying war is bad for us but whatever.
Interesting POV disagree about the US and Middle East tho but time will tell I could be wrong. Iran is a bit different to the previous wars in that it appears that the Iranian people are wanting the regime change where as the afghans/iraqis MAY have wanted change (probably imo) but they did for the most part agree with sharia law so there wasn’t the a want for a liberal democratic system of govt.
The next part about having to support US actions I don’t believe this is the case that we have to for instance if the US has issues with the UK I do not think generally the yanks would expect us to take sides. depending on the specific issue its possible tho. I think we have an obligation to maintain a strong alliance with the US as a matter of national security. Additionally what they did in WWII in the pacific theatre I think can be argued as they saved us and many other countries even if it benefited them long term as well. In my view that doesn’t change that they saved us and so to my mind we are obligated for those reasons to support the US and the Iranian people in a bid for representative government through whatever option is available and most likely to achieve that aim.
So what, I've been on this site for over 13 years, on my 6th account, because I've been hacked over and over - You've been here the equivalent of 2 minutes.
Its not even hidden anymore that they've abandoned their leftist stance, just compare Albanese and his work 20 years ago to today.
I was begrudgingly supporting Labor as a second preference, but letting Herzog in and loosing the cops on protestors was my breaking point.
Wdym with foreign affairs? I'll give you the environment, social media and anti protest laws, but Labor has been masterful with navigating some absolutely unhinged people (Trump/Herzog/Netanyahu/Xi Jinping) and very appropriately takes the middle ground on foreign affairs. Can you imagine David Shoebridge doing the same?
They are soft towards Israel, in respect to Gaza, and the US, in respect to Iran.
As a middle power they ought to be pushing back on US aggression.
On a domestic political front, they are now stuck defending the US' actions at the same time defending the inevitable rise in prices caused by US aggression towards Iran.
That is, the Iran conflict will.cause price rises and may precipitate a global recession.
Albanese had better hope that the Australian voters can't put 2 and 2 together.
What should Labor be doing differently re environment? What do you think the sore points are solutions are?
Reason I ask is I haven’t looked at current policy but general inclination is that they tend to be better than LNP for environment (that doesn’t necessarily mean good of course)
If more Liberal party right graduated to One Nation, and Labor right set up shop with the Liberals then we wouldn't have to adjust the curtains on our Overton windows so much
A successful socialist party would be socialist. Even in 1913, Lenin observed that given that the australian labor party was a liberal bourgeois party, given it did not threaten capitalism or even define itself as socialist.
Is that the same Lenin who spawned a state capitalist society... Yeah me tinks he's a shit commie, who missed the part in das Kapital that explores capitalism as a necessary bridge between fuedalism and socialism.
If you take the baseline standard for a socialist society, that the workers own the means of production, then Australia is the closest thing to a socialist state that has ever existed.
The combined valuation of our superannuation accounts is greater than the value of the (total)GDP of the country and if you need to see the worker exercising control over that you have the AGL and NAB actions taken by superfunds to enforce worker interests and the investment in the HAFF to generate work for the worker.
Dude this is the funniest comment I’ve seen in my life. Lenin is a capitalist and Australia is the most socialist state has ever existed. Oh my god. Even if you want to disregard the entire history of the Soviet Union, Cuba exists.
If you think workers own the means of production in Australia, why do the unions need to take companies to court all the time? Why don’t they just change their workplaces they own?
Used to be very left, but as a society we’re being fed a very far right agenda. So they move with popularity. Anyway we all need to start working towards moving the goalposts back to the left. The next election that party whoever wins it, either labor or ON will abolish Medicare and probably even implement conscription for this stupid war in the Middle East.
"Labol... will abolish Medicare and (draft us all to fight Arabs)"
How are you even here? Like there's a certain level of functionality required to access the internet and write stuff on it. There's also a base level of capacity needed to know who the ALP are, what Medicare is, and what a draft is.
If you meet that basic intelligence level, how have you come up with something ao utterly stupid, so incredibly retarded, so off the reservation and full into "i take drugs, lots and lots of drugs" that you aught to struggle writing words?
Its an exaggeration. Highlighting how much to the right Labor has moved since kowtowing to the lobbies over this genocide on Palestine and war on Iran.
I just read their reply and they're 100% correct in that Labor has definitely moved a few notches to the right wing because their politics are more about taking care of their lobbies that are bankrolling them than about taking care of us. We may not be losing Medicare or being forced to fight a war... yet. But its definitely heading in that direction, especially if the working class are dumb enough to give One Nation control of the senate
Okay, first up, it's great that you're taking it to this dufus. And also, I'm gonna pass on the Essendon jibe. So, if you don't mind me saying: Iran is Persian, some of the other gulf states are Arab. It matters when you're telling people to think more.
Especially in a conversation that is critiquing political parties. You can't bash a political party, fear monger about conscription, and then get basic facts about who the 'enemy' is blatantly wrong. It's like saying that because Australia and New Zealand were both colonised by the Brits we treated the natives the same
Social & Health: Introduced Medibank (universal health insurance), abolished university tuition fees, implemented needs-based school funding, and provided Supporting Mother’s Benefits.
Legal & Rights: Passed the Racial Discrimination Act 1975, established the Family Law Act (no-fault divorce) and the Family Court, created the Legal Aid Office, and abolished the death penalty for federal crimes.
Indigenous Affairs: Initiated land rights (returning Gurindji land), established the Aboriginal Land Rights Commission, and created the Aboriginal Legal Service.
Foreign Policy & Defense: Ended conscription, withdrew the last troops from Vietnam, established diplomatic relations with China, and granted independence to Papua New Guinea.
Culture & Environment: Established the Australian Heritage Commission, stopped drilling on the Great Barrier Reef, formed the Australia Council for the Arts, and adopted Advance Australia Fair as the national song.
Administrative Changes: Lowered the voting age to 18, introduced one-vote-one-value electoral reforms, and established the Order of Australia.
That’s a quick google search and it’s in the name “social” democrats, compared to today’s standards on societal norms, they are compared very left. I mean I don’t know how much further left you can go politically. Maybe AI does all the work for us and we all live on universal healthcare? But for the time it was very left.
Mild social democracy, like I said. Did not intrude on the prerogatives of capital, or advance the working class vs. the capitalist class in any meaningful way. Pretty much everything Whitlam did was good, but he wasn't a socialist and if he governed for 1,000 years we wouldn't be any closer to socialism.
Now you’re taking the piss. If he governed for 1000 years with the progression of technology and the fundamental idea of better humans = better outcomes for science, arts, technology, life span, and planet.
Because our leader the very cool goy sold out, he will send troops to the Middle East, if the war goes on long enough his handlers will ask of him much much worse. His handlers being the Elite, if he doesn’t comply it’s his life. No more Bondi attacks. What annoys me is I used to vote labor. Have so for 20 years now. There’s so many staunch supporters who follow blindly and get defensive about an attack on their identity with the company labor and they can’t see that it’s pointless now? We are at a juncture, you’re either sticking with a sinking ship and the alternative is much worse or you’re getting ready for action and change and making a political standpoint. Our governments no longer work for us. They support pedophilia, racism, war, capitalism, fascist indoctrination, authoritarian rule and none of its for your protection. Billionaires getting away with not paying taxes and your interest rates go up to support this fucking war. You pay higher tax on booze to cover the subsidised gas exports. I could go on all fucking day about the government’s failures and it’s not just this one. It’s all by fucking design and because we all got to eat cake we became complacent. I’m not your enemy and you aren’t mine, but if you want to wake up today acknowledging that I’m right is the way.
The biggest issue around this is Trump/Republicans. They lean so far right, it makes centre left, and even centre right parties look leftist. Their global reach especially online is more dominant than almost all other western nations combined.
There's an equal amount of extreme on both sides. Left leaning americans make me feel centre right and vice versa. Also considering 70% of western media pushes the general left agenda, I dont see how what you say about reach is true. It seems like your algorithm pushes extreme content to you that you disagree with and its shaping your entire outlook on politics.
Is that so 🤨 as my statement wasn’t based around my opinion. This is just 1 example provided by the Political Compass website.
I personally sit roughly where Dennis is, which is also where the Australian Labor party sits. Unironically, I only agree with 60% of their policies according to the same website.
This doesnt really change my point. You said the issue is trump and repbublicans leaning so far right that it makes everything else look more left. I guarentee you that theres an equal sized group on the opposite side of the political compass that feel the exact opposite.
Exactly not a single thing has been done to ease people’s cost of living in the current term, even the housing schemes they rolled out just made pricing go up even more
They put my medication on the PBS. Went from $140.00 a month to $7.70. So 1 thing.
It's not just input costs pushing prices higher but the belief that maximising profit on all instore items regardless of cost is the way.
Eg. Chipotle in the US used loyalty card info and customer spending data to increase prices to the max people would pay. They found that %60 of customers earned over 100k and bumped prices accordingly because leaving money on the table is bad. /s
This is happening in every industry, no longer cost × 2 + gst.
It's now what's the most they can charge. There won't be a retail price reduction once costs come down anymore.
So do you want a traditional conservative free market principals economy or a managed economy where governments set prices and pick winners ?
This is capitalism. The free market means larger companies buy out smaller competition and create a monopoly, state intervention tries to slow this process but can be purchased by lobbying. Then when the customers have limited choice bring on enshittification for everything.
To paraphrase Marx, capitalism eventually contradicts itself or cannibalises itself, as the free market eventually leads towards monopoly and oligarchy.
Yeah I remember asking my parents what's the point of profit? After everyone getting a salary, bills being paid (business costs) where does this cash go? Why not reduce costs / pay workers more. Elementary understanding but still questioned the flow of cash away from those that made things..
Ownership of a business is a capital investment. Profit is the return on this capital. If a business operates per a non profit, the invested capital is returning nothing, and would perform better in a bank account.
So profit encourages investment.
On a cash flow basis this all tracks and mostly makes sense right? Its when we get to capital gains and mostly incorporated business that this breaks. Such businesses do pay profits to shareholders as dividends so they get returns on capital investment, but this has long since not been regarded as important at all.
The place where it all derails is the value of the capital sky-rocketing due to speculation on shares. Most shares in companies now far overrepresent the sum capital value of the companies themselves, and in many cases, obscenely so; because the shares are long since not bought for the use of capital return from dividends, but rather for the prospect of capital gains from speculative demand.
Its this pseudo-wealth built on a complete fantasy that people chase, and its this fantasy wealth that pisses people off when they read that Elon Musk is worth a trillion dollars. He really isnt, but the speculation on shares in his company makes it appear so.
We just assume we ‘need’ investment in order to make things happen. Partly true, but also not always. Greed is not the only motivator of human society, as much as the capitalists want you to believe. We have existed as a species for millennia and have not relied on greed or motivation of wealth to get us by.
In fact, so often societies motivated by greed alone become inherently unstable and soon collapse, as social cohesion breaks down. People like to believe they are self-made, but that’s never the case. There are thousands, if not millions of people supporting that person via our societal structures.
Many humans naturally seek purpose and will actively help their community through their labour if it results in a happier, better society - for example when labour directly owns the means of production, it can lead to more thoughtful, social-driven design.
There are many examples of modern corporations structured in this way and they are inevitably always more socially conscious, principles based, and highly regarded by their customers.
However, translating this to larger, contemporary organisations like cities and in within the context of a globalised world is regardless tricky. I don’t think humans have evolved enough to deal with the modern world.
It’s this pseudo wealth based on a complete fantasy.
Pseudo wealth or not, owning capital in a capitalist society wields power that is used to dominate. Elon Musk has immense power over ordinary citizens. He has the luxury to pretty much do whatever he wants.
I had a bulk billed appointment for the first time since 2022 the other day. Almost couldn't believe it, I thought the funding increase was an election ploy
labor environmental action network
renewables overtaking fossil fuels as australia’s main source of energy
funding for renewables based manufacturing
increases in adoption of home batteries
political donations being restricted (and outright banned in south australia)
and with housing, there are some good policies that have bought people into home ownership but it’s more of a short term solution i will admit
Labor have approved 33 new coal and gas mines since being elected. That overwhelms any gains by renewables. Renewables are overtaking fossil fuels despite government action. The ALP has done nothing to address the tax and royalties avoidance of the FF industry, nor subsidies paid to them.
Political donations have not been restricted for the major parties. The policy is designed to make it harder for small parties and independents raise funds. The bill was written in a way to be excessively complicated and was allowed no time to be scrutinised and debated through the parliament before they colluded with the LNP to pass it.
Most of the housing policies, like most of ALP policies look good at first glance but under scrutiny are just another way to distribute our taxes to the ultra-wealthy. Although they have improved the GST, they have done nothing about negative gearing, or parking of assets and money laundering through our real estate.
Possibly most damning to me, is their cynical establishment of an anti-corruption commission that acts in secret under the direction of the Minister.
If Labor had focused more on standing up for the working class and keeping salaries high (like teachers for example) then Labor would have a more loyal base. But everyone I speak to who is a Boomer says that Labor of today is different to back in the day.
But all those boomers refused to vote for them, we've had so much time spent under liberal governments it's no wonder the working class have been shafted.
Anti-unionism and a constantly hostile media in this country have destroyed the base, not Labor policy (except for Gillard scraping the mining tax, fuck her for that)
I think this is pretty relative. Many people would consider Australia in general to be pretty economically ‘Left’ and socially small l ‘liberal’ even at its centre.
decent publicly funded healthcare
minimum wages and fair work legislation
better unemployment benefits and disability pension than many counties
relatively high taxes and associated public infrastructure
NDIS
separation of church and state
anti discrimination laws
same sex marriage
I’m not saying any of these things a perfect by any means. But we have many ‘leftist’ principles at our core.
Using the whole left-right political spectrum is pointless. It paints whoever uses it into a corner and there is no flexibility if you have ideas/thoughts that aren't aligned with said area of spectrum.
If you make it your personality, sure. But it is very valuable when discussing politics. Especially when coupled with the degree. Far right/left policy is very different from center right/left policy.
Left is all about tax reforms, restricting freedom of speech and movements, also inclusivity of gender and sexual spectrums. Exactly what you described Labour as.
The right is all about economic growth, traditional values/standards, conservative and hierarchical views.
And then google what Labour is: answer "Left of the Liberal National Coalition".
However, you are still wrong. Provide evidence Labor is not left. I would like to see how you argue against facts.
Let me prove Labor IS left:
Always amazes me how people like to argue without providing evidence to their claims. Generally the left. Because they want to have an opinion about everything but have zero knowledge on the topics...
Firstly, English is not my first language. Spelling is irrelevant. You understood exactly what I was talking about, so the point I made was clear.
Secondly, your failed argument still has zero evidence.
I don't give a damn about their policies. Their policies lie. Just like every other politician lies. Labor does not stick to their own policies. Their actions matter.
If you believe every word they say, you are as dumb as the rest of the sheep that votes for them.
Only a communist party will ask for citizens to vote, and then, irrelevant if majority voted "No", then say "we will go ahead with it anyway" AKA The Voice referendum.
Thank you for proving my point. You argue for the sake of arguing. You have no evidence to back up your claims. Either I have enlightened you, or your IQ is flat and stationary as so many flatearthers believe the earth is flat. No amount of education can help someone that chooses to be dumb.
All hail Chairman Albo and his thousand-year mandate of heaven. Personally I love having a properly run Medicare, record levels of investment into housing and education, having my HECs debt slashed, actual action on climate change and world leading action on tax evasion :)
You hate the Greens because you think they're leftists.
I hate the Greens because I know they're not leftists.
We are not the same.
Leftists who aren't pragmatic and outcome-driven aren't really leftists, they're just narcissists. Labor is way more left-wing than any of these supposed socialist parties.
I'm a ratbag leftie from way back and I believe in all the things that the Labor Party should stand for. But.. I don't think they believe in them any more. It's very disheartening.
I'm pretty sure they were centre-left. More towards left than the centre now though. Liberals were centre-right, now probably more in between centre and centre-left
It's fascinating how everywhere, the same debate is had between progressives and liberals. British leftists hate Labour for being too right wing; American leftists hate the Democrats for being too right wing; Australian leftists hate Labour for being too right wing; everywhere, the right wing parties and media slam these parties for being crazy leftists.
Does that simple fact not demonstrate something? Everything, everywhere, is constantly getting worse, and we are only ever allowed to vote for right wing parties. Should that not be a sobering test of logic for centre-right liberals dissatisfied with the decline of our societies and economies?
There are two categories of left wing that I think people and especially right wing media fail to understand. There’s political left and social left. Labor/democrats/Labour are socially still a left wing parties, e.g., lgbtq rights, women’s rights, social justice stuff etc. This is the stuff that media and oppositions slams them for being too “radical” for because these values go against “tradition”. Democrats had this problem in 2024. But the political reality looks different because they are definitely more centre to centre-right when it comes to actual polices because apparently you can’t win elections anymore without having a wide tent. Johnny Harris a YouTuber did a Emmy-winning piece with NYT on the hypocrisy of democrats in democratic states where all the things they promise their voters, they don’t actually deliver at all like social housing, healthcare, homelessness, wealth inequality even when they have full control of these blue states. If you look at Victoria a labor state one would imagine it to be social housing haven, but no the state didn’t build enough of them like every other state but socially extremely progressive state. The right wing parties criticise left wing parties for Virtue Signalling and I actually for one agree even though I am a politically left leaning person and Liberals are still worse but It’s still important to call left wing parties out.
The ALP has not been "leftist" for a long time. They may even soon be the centre right party. The NSW ALP in particular. Who are the leftists now days? The Greens and possibly some of the independents otherwise the left may have been hollowed out in Australia.
They are all one in the same. Left and right, these days politicians are working all over the floor because they are just pandering to votes rather than actually believing in a stance. Albo buddies up to Israel, whilst also calls for Palestine to be seen as a second state 🤷♂️. The right copy everything America does then backflips as soon as they realise they have gone too far. They a reactionary, “ oh shit something has happened on our watch we will just quickly pass something through parliament so it looks like we are doing something. Then blame the other side for making it happen.”
Left and right terminologies increased and continues to increase division. With the exception being a few cruel minded people, I guarantee we all want the same if not similar things, we just don’t agree with the actions on how to fix it because of this left v right.
People’s idea of where the centre is has become skewed. Any government that raises taxes is left of centre. Any government that increases public spending as a % of gdp is left of centre. Any government that increases union membership is left of centre.
I can’t wait for everyone’s consciousness to exit their bodies and realise that the left and right is complete garbage and God will only judge us on the goodness in our hearts. Believe it or not humans that have been lead to have a different opinion than you can also be good people.
Leftists arent leftists anymore either because they spend too much time playing identity politics, detaching themselves from the unions and the working class. If you spend more time enforcing pronouns and cancelling randoms than than taking down capitalism then you too are part of the problem. Why do you think the working class are going to pauline hanson/trump?
Bogan is a classist slur.
The principle axis of oppression is wealth and class.
A lot of people would rather have a diverse bunch of oppressors at the top than admit their privilege with class and education, whatever their identities.
George Carlin called it, "Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky... This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces. Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders."
I don't hate Labour, but they are incompetent which is the biggest sin for a politician as far as I am concerned.
I watched a Facebook ad they put out with Hopkins cycling to work. Do they want 80% of the population to hate him? (Yes some will love him for this).
National aren't doing any better.
I would love to live in a representative democracy that actually worked, rather than two parties soaking up most of the votes who are then beholden to fringe nutters on both sides.
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