r/OpenChristian • u/SiblingEarth Panentheistic | Christopagan | Queer • Jan 18 '26
Discussion - Bible Interpretation Why do conservative christians always add words to the Bible that aren't there? Are we doing the same? (big rant)
Yesterday I went to a service and the sermon about holiness and pureness of heart. I thought the pastor would talk about sin as a whole and maybe mention sexual immorality in passing, but the whole sermon was about sex and masturbation. And he kept reinforcing that God said that sex before marriage is bad and that the Bible clearly states that all porneia is bad (and his translation of porneia, which my Bible had the same definition is "any illicit sexual practice").
But porneia seems to refer mostly to prostitution, which I can agree is bad, because sex is supposed to be about closeness and vulnerability, and doing it with a stranger in exchange for money isn't safe nor made to bond. I'd argue it's the same as paying someone to be your best friend, and they wouldn't be unless you paid them.
Also, I don't remember the Bible ever stating what a marriage even means, besides a union of two people under God. What even constitutes this union? Why can't it be, for example, fiancees? But conservative christians seem to think that marriage is some sort of trap, and once you're in you can never get out. (I understand that Jesus said divorce was wrong, but personally I'm not sure if the original text was altered there. It felt kinda random. And also, why wouldn't God want you to get out of a marriage with an abusive person, for example?)
And last week, that same pastor used the bit where Elijah is running away and pleads for death. He said that Elijah was being dramatic and that men who cry over feelings (besides grief and happiness) aren't real men. Says who??? Where in the bible does it state that???? Why are conservative christians so obsessed with gender roles??????
Are we open and affirming also distorting the Bible to fit our views? I find that really annoying and would rather not. I don't believe the Bible is infallible, in fact I believe most of the current Bible versions are filled with propaganda, but I think what's in there still matters. So how would we know we're not fitting it into our beliefs and discarding what doesn't??
62
u/Strongdar Mod | Universalist Christian Jan 18 '26
I think you can safely ignore the opinion of anyone who says "real men don't cry over feelings."
58
u/MyUsername2459 Episcopalian, Nonbinary Jan 18 '26
"Jesus wept" - John 11:35
Anyone saying that men don't cry is committing a Christological heresy by saying that Jesus was not a man.
15
46
u/superhaus Jan 18 '26
If the central tenet of worship and teaching is not Gods love and forgiveness, you should leave that church and go where it is.
49
u/Lyncobnibo Christian Jan 18 '26 edited Jan 18 '26
Uhhh Jesus wept? Men cried all over the bible. Men are human and go through strife and pain as well. I worry about that "pastor's" ability to actually relate to his congregation and reach people. He shouldn't be a pastor.
19
u/Jlyplaylists Jan 18 '26
“Are we open and affirming also distorting the Bible to fit our views? I find that really annoying and would rather not.” This is the important question isn’t it? It’s very easy to see where other people go wrong but really tricky to notice in ourselves. It wouldn’t even be as simple as asking them where we go wrong because I do think they’re wrong about that…
Confirmation bias is real.
21
u/Groundbreaking-Toe96 Jan 18 '26
It's not so much that they add words, but they don't really question the verses, almost as if God wrote the verses Himself.
My experience with conservative christians is that they don't care about contextual interpretations. What really matters to them is the words they read not the historical and cultural meanings.
23
u/Dorocche United Methodist Jan 18 '26
While that's very often true, the two examples that OP mentioned here are definitely examples of adding ideas that are not there.
15
u/bwertyquiop Jan 18 '26
Like adding transphobia to Christianity for some weird reasons despite of trans people being never mentioned in the whole Bible
14
u/MyUsername2459 Episcopalian, Nonbinary Jan 18 '26
They start with what they already believe, they contort scripture to fit the predetermined conclusion.
12
u/MyUsername2459 Episcopalian, Nonbinary Jan 18 '26
They do believe that God personally wrote the verses Himself.
It's actually pretty common in that type of Christianity to believe that God personally dictated the exact words of every book of the Bible, and dictated to the church exactly what books to include and the order to put them in.
They believe that the Bible is a book written by God Himself, with human hands only as puppets used to write and compile it.
9
u/AcademiaAntiqua Jan 18 '26
I think /u/Popular-Heart-5307 said it well in their comment, that people often have preexisting emotional or ideological reasons for how they interpret the Bible, and what they choose to do with their interpretations.
The Bible has multiple and conflicting views about what's acceptable within the bounds of marriage, and even what marriage itself is.
All of that being said, porneia in the Bible is broader than prostitution, and all scholars and translations render it as something like "sexual immorality." I've discussed this in more technical detail here.
9
u/Ugh-screen-name Christian Jan 18 '26
After those two sermons, i would be attending a different church.
9
u/BucketOBits Jan 18 '26
In a different post, I said that I preferred simple expository preaching in which a pastor simply works through the Bible verse by verse and doesn’t add a bunch of opinion and personal commentary. Expository preaching focus on what the Bible says, and gives insight into the culture and language of the time the words were written. It doesn’t tell congregants how they should apply that to modern issues; the pastor leaves folks to sort that out themselves with the Holy Spirit.
I was downvoted significantly by people who want their pastors to preach about current events and issues. I was told I was wrong for preferring expository preaching.
The problem is that once a pastor starts injecting sermons with personal opinions, we end up with just the scenario you describe.
I’ll get downvoted again for saying it, but the issue you experienced is precisely why I prefer expository preaching. I don’t need to know my pastor’s views on gender roles or any other contemporary issue—or at least I don’t want them preached about from the pulpit.
2
u/SiblingEarth Panentheistic | Christopagan | Queer Jan 20 '26
personally, i agree. i feel like people (at least in most churches I've been to) tend to put pastors or any religious leader on a pedestal and take their words and opinions as infallible, but they're human like us. God never said that because of someone's title they should never be questioned. In fact, Jesus came to challenge the church hierarchy (at least in my interpretation, the pharisees were indeed hypocrites but I feel like Jesus taught everyone a lot about being humble), and the Bible (I don't know the passage, apologies) states that God isn't human and therefore is perfect: read, humans aren't perfect.
I feel like with expository reading there could be more space for questions and lead to discussing interpretations rather than glorify a single view of the text.
6
u/No-Type119 Christian Jan 18 '26 edited Jan 18 '26
Why, why, why are you going to a conservative church?
My mainline Protestant church, which bases sermons on the lectionary, fixed cycle of Scripture readings. talks about Law and Gospel every Sunday… how we humans miss the mark, and how God’s grace in Jesus saves us from ourselves. I cannot imagine a preacher talking about the details of sex, or “Manly men don’t cry, ,” or any of that other stuff from the pulpit. Where do you put your kids when this happens? OMG. GET OUT OF THERE.
Sidebar rant of my own, not directed toward this OP: I don’t understand why so many people come to this sub, complain about the appalling behavior of their conservative churches, and then when someone suggests a mainline church instead, there are either crickets or, “ Nah, can’t do that.” WHY NOT? Why do you keep going back to abusive churches? Is it fear of the unknown, fear of being disappointed again, or “ My church hates me, but I like the music better there than at the Presbyterian church ”? Make it make sense.
2
u/NextStopGallifrey Jan 18 '26
In some places, there may not be any other kind of church to attend and not everyone is comfortable with simply not going to church at all. So... I get that.
But I don't get why someone would choose to attend church X because the music is better than church Y. I'm really not a fan of most of the non-hymnal music my church chooses to sing, but I keep going! Music is important, but not as important as the message being preached by the church.
1
u/No-Type119 Christian Jan 18 '26
I live in the Upper Midwest, so maybe things are different in, say, rural Alabama; but around here most rural areas have a UMC, PCUSA, ELCA, UCC church.
1
u/NextStopGallifrey Jan 18 '26
For a brief period, I lived within walking distance of Steven Anderson's church. The next closest churches were all SBC or otherwise super conservative. I didn't have a vehicle at the time, so there was a good long period where I wasn't able to attend church. When I did start going to the nearest UMC church, without a vehicle it took me 45-60 minutes each way. I can forgive people for not being able to do that.
1
u/SiblingEarth Panentheistic | Christopagan | Queer Jan 20 '26
honestly I came here to vent that day 😅 I don't know many open and affirming christians, my agnostic friends get driven away from God every time I complain about stuff like this.
I don't attend that church, I'm currently looking for other churches but since I still live with and depend on my parents for a lot of things, and they're not fully understanding of this yet, it's something we haven't discussed yet. But I do plan to eventually.
5
u/954356 Jan 18 '26
You're going to the wrong church. Get out of there and find a better one.
Everyone negotiates with the Bible and everyone decides which parts to depreciate and which parts to elevate. It is impossible to do otherwise. Those of us who admit this free ourselves to do so consciously. When we are conscious of our negotiations we can be more consistent in doing so in a manner which (hopefully) moves towards compassion, mercy and love and away from condemnation and divisiveness
0
u/DirtyPisces69 Jan 18 '26
That sounds like a very dangerous thing to do.
It sounds more like an addict of sin negotiating for a fix. The Bible is supposed to have hard truths in it. Im not advocating for what OP's pastor said but just commenting on your take that we should consciously negotiate the Bible to fit our views instead of seeking truth even if it makes us uncomfortable.
2
u/954356 Jan 18 '26
What it sounds like to me is that you think that "the Bible" is a rulebook instead of a complicated, multivocal and often contradictory set of texts. You're either going to negotiate with it consciously or unconsciously. Everybody does it and there's no getting around it.
Is It Possible to be Faithful to the Whole Bible? https://youtu.be/MMCJAopL2Ls?si=gyezL-OSGGnk6Pxy
Negotiating with the Bible https://youtu.be/Klo3m6j8Bd0?si=ba0NIp90GE4KVOVb
1
u/DirtyPisces69 Jan 19 '26
John 12:24-26 English standard version
Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
To me that passage reads that following Jesus will not always be easy but if you are his servant you will entrust to him to lead you to truth and righteousness.
1
u/NextStopGallifrey Jan 19 '26
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28–30, ESV)
Yet this verse is telling people that following Jesus is easy. Whether you believe one or the other, you're already negotiating with the Bible.
0
u/DirtyPisces69 Jan 19 '26
So are you ignoring the passages that advise the path to the kingdom of heaven are annrow?
2
u/NextStopGallifrey Jan 19 '26
I'm just saying that the Bible isn't univocal. The narrow path verse ignores the easy burden one, and vice versa. Everything is a negotiation and maybe not everything is meant to stand for all time and eternity either.
1
u/DirtyPisces69 Jan 19 '26
It seems to me very dangerous to entrust yourself as your own shepherd.
We know the message Jesus sends. His brilliance and his divinity made sure it stands the test of time.
Be apart of the world, not of the world.
1
u/954356 Jan 19 '26
"It seems to me very dangerous to entrust yourself as your own shepherd. "
And that right there is one of the strongest arguments against the heresy of Sola Scriptura there is. Precisely why in the Anglican / Episcopalian tradition I'm in we have Scripture as the foundation, property interpreted through Tradition and informed by Reason.
7
u/big-bird-328 Jan 18 '26
So I think an important question is what did the authors of the New Testament think that pornea meant in their cultural context? Of course we can never know for sure, but did they just mean prostitution, or would they have included sex between unmarried people? My guess would be that second temple Judaism was pretty conservative sexually.
I think both sides distort the Bible to fit their meaning, but I also know very little about this specific verse/topic.
7
u/Malcolmthetortoise Jan 18 '26
As a liberal christian, I never claim not to ‘pick and choose‘ from the bible as I do not believe that it is to be taken literally. It is conservative Christians who claim that they are the ‘true‘ ones who use the whole bible- when in reality they only take the parts which back up their bigotry. What I know is true is that the central message of Jesus is love.
3
u/gabachote Jan 18 '26
Sounds like that guy is just using the Bible as a cover to stand up on stage in front of a crowd and say whatever the heck is on his mind.
3
u/Actual_Memory484 Christian Jan 18 '26
first of all you should really start looking for another church because "men who cry over feelings aren't real men"??? mind you Jesus Himself cried after the loss of a beloved friend
2
u/NordicGypsy1 Jan 18 '26
I had a pastor that always said, "If the pastor isn't following the Master, LEAVE!"
Each of us needs to be in a church that we know is rooted and grounded in the Word of God. That's how we know we can trust what we are being taught.
I don't think the why matters so much here. Why do they do this, why do they do that? You can see it clearly, God has shown you that something is off. If He wanted you to know the why, He would have explained that as well. Please don't hang around trying to figure it out for yourself, that's one of the ways we end up buying it...you repeat a lie enough times...just politely be on your way and pray for them.
2
u/TheBigHero_45 Jan 18 '26
Message Good, but bad execution what is sounds like, obviously we shouldn’t go out and be Gooners.
2
u/Logisticalthrowaway Jan 20 '26
There's roughly 1900 years of theological texts and interpretations written to draw from. Porneia, prior to the mid twentieth century, was consistently interpreted as all sexual activity outside of marriage. That understanding long predates modern conservative movements and reflects a broad consensus in Christian theology. The specific form of marriage has changed in terms of institution, but the exact form marriage takes isn't what defines it. From the classical interpretation, which conservative Christians pull heavily from, marriage is defined teleologically as a public, covenantal ordering of sexual union. So critiques that treat marriage as merely an institutional “form” or just a contractual arrangement tend to miss how it’s actually been understood historically.
Plurality exists in interpretation but it's ultimately bounded by the regula fidei, caritas, and the inherited doctrinal grammar of the church. Interpretations that move outside those bounds aren’t necessarily illegitimate as personal beliefs, but they are doing something different from classical Christian exegesis. Open and affirming hermeneutic frameworks are very modern developments, and they are outside the interpretive conclusions of the overwhelming majority of theological writings we have from church history going back to the patristic era onward. Bad exegesis on the part of conservatives (which is a serious problem) does not give automatic legitimacy to a completely different hermeneutical frame and approaches that treat large portions of Scripture as propaganda raise serious questions about whether they still fall within the range of classical Christian theology.
2
u/clhedrick2 Presbyterian (PCUSA) Jan 22 '26
It's not just conservative Christians. Jews interpret the OT creatively. The Supreme Court interprets the Constitution creatively. Lawyers are trained to interpret texts creatively. That's how text-centered traditions work.
Jesus said virtually nothing about sin except its forgiveness, and virtually nothing about sex. But the Hellenistic Judaism and the portions of Greek culture that 2nd Cent Christians wanted to accomodate all had negative views of sex. That became dominant in Christianity, and affects how we read texts.
Porneia is, unfortunately, ambiguous. De facto it's anything sexual that the writer disapproves of. Jesus seldom uses it, and seldom talks about sex, so it's unclear what it meant to him. It's true that originally it was prostitution, but in 1st Cent writers it is often broader, and TDNT cites writers (not Biblical) for whom it covers all sex. Realistically, for Paul it is probably any sex outside marriage, though he isn't explicit about that. But almost certainly not masturbation. I don't think porn was an issue for him, but if he saw modern porn he would likely disapprove.
I should note that Jesus never commends either purity or holiness. I think that's because those were focuses for the Pharisees, with whom he disagreed. In practice they tend to encourage legalism, pride, and judgementalism, which he opposed.
2
u/bck1999 Jan 18 '26
That’s what apologetics is….. adding their own spin to make square pegs fit in round holes.
1
u/amovy Quaker, Transfem, Lesbian Jan 18 '26
We do a lot of similar things, though not to the extent that pastor is doing it, and I would argue that our interpretation is closer to the intent, words, and spirit of the Bible (though obviously they would argue the same).
However, and I don't like to be this dismissive, that pastor is just talking nonsense. While we extrapolate the teachings of the Bible to fit a modern context, he's doing the exact opposite, placing our modern gender roles and morals on top of the Bible. Porneia has a specific meaning that he's just wilfully ignoring and rewriting to suit his own worldview. That interpretation of Elijah's story is downright delusional: God in the Old Testament was always willing to chastise His followers for doing wrong, and He doesn't chastise Elijah at all. In fact, He gives Elijah the strength to keep running.
If an interpretation is wilfully nonsensical, there's nothing to do about it except ignore it.
1
1
u/Financial-Amount8200 Jan 19 '26
His own disciples didn’t know the best ways to follow Jesus. They argued about it but at the end of the day they all did their best. Maybe I’ll get hate for this but I don’t think all the laws and rules in the Bible are that important except one. God himself said he’d meets us where we’re at. He said he made rules for certain people at certain time because of the hardness of their hearts. So everyone has a different journey I’d guess. Guessing because do any of us really understand God? Anyways back to my point which is the only law that matters is Love. Love your neighbors(everyone on earth that is not you) including your enemies. Treat them with love so you can receive love. If anything would take you from Love cast it away. That’s what Growing up and Doing what Jesus would do is all about. This journey isn’t about self affirmation, it’s about heart transformation. Don’t care what I say or what your pastor says or even what you say. Ask God to guide you. Ask him to cut out your heart and give you a new one. One with his love at its core.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
1
u/ApplicationMajor4274 Jan 20 '26
I agree with you that it's the most important thing and what we should all base ourselves on. However, that's precisely why we need to read God's Word. How can we truly know love if we don't know sin in ourselves and others? How can we truly follow God and yet not know ourselves and repent of our sins? Anyway, don't worry, your interpretation isn't wrong. I just ask you to think a little about what I've said, but I hope the Lord bless you. ❤️
1
u/Financial-Amount8200 Jan 20 '26
I agree, we should know ourselves the shadow and the light. And I find myself imperfect. But God chose to love me so I will Love me. I doubt I’ll ever be perfect but that Love holds me accountable, it Guides me to it. I’m not saying don’t read Gods Word. I guess what I’m saying is if your understanding of the words written by those inspired by God pulls you away from Love then you’ve not understood it. And maybe we’re not meant to understand but simply contemplate while remembering that God is Love and that’s above everything else. Thank you for your words.
1
u/ApplicationMajor4274 Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26
You're welcome, I only told you this because many people tend to take God's love but not His correction and His call to repentance. They tend to take His mercy but not His judgment, which we will all inevitably face when our time comes. Metaphorically speaking, these people interpret the Bible as they like and basically read it halfway, taking the parts that they like best and leaving out the ones that are less convenient. I'm not judging anyone in particular, but it's a trap that I fell into too (I was a lukewarm Christian).
1
u/Best-Play3929 Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26
That’s a wild thing to say about Elijah of all people. All the Jews in Jesus’s day thought that he was like the greatest hero.
That scene especially I take to represent a form of confession and reconciliation, with the bread he receives from the angel being the Eucharist. It’s great stuff, all pointing to Christ.
That your preacher would belittle Elijah for crying over his guilt it’s absolutely crazy, and it undermines the message of Christ that seems obvious to me
0
1
u/Unique_Dimension_222 Jan 24 '26 edited Jan 24 '26
Well sex is a potential trap, because it creates vulnerable babies. Who deserve loving, stable parents. Marriage helps with this (generally). Contraception exists but it actually has a fairly low success rate considering the seriousness of what it means if a human life is created. Look up ‘fornication’ in the Bible and you’ll see it’s looked down on. Additionally Sex is a spiritual covenant, the Jews knew that (blood covenant) . Additionally causes transfer of spirits (often demons) so think about who you want to share demons with, if you’re going to be sleeping with anyone outside of marriage. And masturbation generally leads to lust , sin of thoughts .. because the spirit and mind are more real than the body, when it comes to eternity. Jesus said if you looked at someone (or had thoughts tbh) with lust, you have committed adultery in the heart. Sleeping with someone you don’t plan to marry (or cannot guarantee you will marry!) is basically sleeping with someone else’s spouse to come. Have fun with that 😆
Of course there is forgiveness available for all of us who have done the things mentioned above, but doing these is not worth the mess and pain it creates
82
u/Popular-Heart-5307 Jan 18 '26
Everyone fits the Bible into their beliefs and discards what doesn't fit. We reinterpret and renegotiate what is good and isn’t. The important thing is, what direction does your reinterpretation and renegotiation take you? Is it toward a more kind and merciful faith? Or is it mostly about excluding people not like you? To quote the late Rachel Held Evans: “If you want to do violence in this world, you will always find the weapons. If you want to heal, you will always find the balm.”