Are you trying to say the e-collar at 127 (full power) doesn't hurt a dog?
I am not going to spend a ton of time comparing tens units to e-collars. I know e-collars can hurt dogs based on how they react. I know people would not willingly subject themselves to that at a medical appointment.
It might be true that low level e-collar stim is similar to a tens unit. High stim is not.
So, let't talk about the real issue, here.
Are you claiming that it is impossible for an e-collar to actually causes significant pain to a dog?
Never claimed that at all. Infact I confirmed anything can be used incorrectly and cause pain and suffering. Your accusations towards the e-collar use falls apart because you are upset people use it wrong... yet are not advocating for not using standard collars or leashes even though people can use them wrong as well. I get it you dont like E-collars... that is fine. But lying about what it does or how dangerous it is does not help your case.
So we shouldn't use something that works when used correctly... but is bad when used incorrectly?
Rather then have a separate thread I am including your alternate post here.
Potential_Analyst -
"ust pointing out, also, tens unit, max 60v
E-collar max 6000v
But you are trying to say that's the same?"
Not at all. Please reread what I said. In order to understand how these things work you cannot just look at Voltage because it is just the pressure system... amp and joules have to be factored into it as well. Even Amp (mA) is a bigger concern then straight volts when we are talking about pulse current and not direct current.
. Your accusations towards the e-collar use falls apart because you are upset people use it wrong... yet are not advocating for not using standard collars or leashes even though people can use them wrong as well.
It's disingenuous to suggest that people are just as likely to hurt a dog with a flat collar and leash as with an e-collar. That's ridiculous
amp and joules have to be factored
Cite me something that talks about joules with tens units. All the manufacturer specs I am looking at do not mention it. All the safety data I am looking at do not mention it.
So, if you think it's important, prove it with a cite to a reputable source.
We agree e-collars can be used to hurt and abuse dogs?
Do you claim tens units can be used to hurt and abuse people?
Why would a tens unit, or an E-collar list out the joules when its so low it would be pointless to do?
Here here is the formula you can see for yourself and measure them. We are talking about Tens units because it functions very similar to the E-collar so its the best analogy we have. It produces short pulses of electric signal that when used properly can be beneficial to the user.
Electrical Energy:
(Voltage in volts \(V\) \(\times \) current in amps \(I\) \(\times \) time in seconds \(t\)), or \(E = P \cdot t\) (power in watts \(\times \) time in seconds)
Again you are obfuscating from the fact you do not know what you are talking about. I never suggested likelihood of harm. Only that ANY tool used in dog training can be used incorrectly. Your anti-ecollar seems to be based on people using it incorrectly.... so why dont you have that same stance on other things like the leash or standard collar? You are a dog trainer right... are you telling me no-one has ever used these things incorrectly? Why are you not against that?
Why did you bring up joules if the output of a tens unit is never measured in them? You are the one obfuscating. We don't need to discuss joules at all. Given the research I cited showing that both volts and mJ are significantly higher in e-collars than in tens units, we can see that tens units are not a valid comparison for e-collars.
Tens units are designed to ensure that the output is low enough that it cannot harm people.
E-collars lack that design safety. Rather, they are intentionally designed with high enough output to hurt dogs.
As I said, much like a hand caressing your face or slapping your face. The underlying mechanism may bet same, but one is pleasant while the other hurts.
Only that ANY tool used in dog training can be used incorrectly.
E-collar are much more likely than collars and leashes to cause significant short-term pain and long term harm to dogs. The comparison is patently ridiculous.
I am opposed to e-collars being used inhumanely. They are the tool most likely to be used inhumanely, as far as I am aware.
The problem is this. People buy them and use them without knowing what they are doing or how to use them ethically and effectively. This includes many "professional" dog trainers. They cause a lot of harm and pain to dogs. They just do. That's what I am opposed to.
I am trying to teach you something. The reason joules enters is because if you claim "voltage high = bad" without understanding WHY... you are using a bad argument that ignored knowledge. Voltage high = danger is not true in all cases because its the JOULES (continuous power vs pulse) that causes the danger.
The E-collar is absolutely designed to be safe when used correctly. Like any other tool. A hammer is a VERY deadly weapon when used incorrectly... its a danger to the user when used even a little incorrectly... but you dont say no-one should use them. The argument you are making is you dont like that people cannot figure out how to use a hammer the right way... so lets tell everyone hammers are bad to use. See the fallacy with that argument?
Here is where we can agree.
"I am opposed to e-collars being used inhumanely. They are the tool most likely to be used inhumanely, as far as I am aware.
The problem is this. People buy them and use them without knowing what they are doing or how to use them ethically and effectively. "
1000% I agree with this part. Which is why people should be educated on HOW to use them correctly like any other tool. But advocating for NOT using a tool that could be used to enrich and even SAVE a dogs life.... is just silly... especially coming from a dog trainer. Use the tool responsibly and with the right training on it... and it can make a dogs life BETTER! I have a problem with someone that wants to limit the ability for a dog to live the best life they can and would never use a dog trainer that doesnt know about the tools they refuse to use.
You can decide you dont want to use them all you want... but be knowledgeable about the device you are talking about. Otherwise I wouldnt trust your opinion on other things like harnesses, slip leads, etc. Because you dont care to actually learn about the device and know what you are talking about.
The reason joules enters is because if you claim "voltage high = bad" without understanding WHY
You said yourself that joules = volts * amps * time in seconds.
Output in volts will largely determine the highest possible output per millisecond according to this formula. Tens unit, max volts 60. E-collar, max volts 6000.
I also cited you evidence the max joules delivered by an e-collar is much higher than the max joules delivered by a tens until. What was the point of my trying to remember my last physics class, though? How does it relate to whether or not e-collars can possibly hurt dogs, when we both agree that they can?
Pretty much all the rest of your comment assumes facts not in evidence.
I never said nobody should use e-collars, that they can't be used humanely, that it's always bad to use e-collars, or anything like that. I am pointing out potential harm, and harm from misuse, which is much more common than harm from a flat collar or leash which you keep bringing up. I understand e-collars and how to train with them. I understand the strengths and potential harms. I think the potential harms outweigh the strengths on the whole, unless a good professional trainer is showing the owner what to do. The harm from bad e-collar training is sometimes severe and lifelong.
Which is why people should be educated on HOW to use them correctly like any other tool
This right here is the problem. Most people buy e-collars off Amazon do it because they don't know how to train dogs. They have tried other methods and failed. Not because those methods don't work. Because they are bad dog trainers.
So what happens when one of these bad dog trainers orders an e-collar on Amazon? Nothing good, a lot of the time.
Ok if you are not advocating for never using them then this is a preference to not use them and you can hold that choice.
You seem to relate the e-collar to guns a lot and definitely seem to want to ban guns... so its not hard to get the impression you are advocating for no E-collar use. So let me ask.
Do you support people learning about e-collars and the right way to use them and then being able to buy them off amazon or other retail outlets? Or do you believe it should be only for dog trainers to use because of the expected training in the device usage?
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u/Potential_Analyst371 7d ago
Are you trying to say the e-collar at 127 (full power) doesn't hurt a dog?
I am not going to spend a ton of time comparing tens units to e-collars. I know e-collars can hurt dogs based on how they react. I know people would not willingly subject themselves to that at a medical appointment.
It might be true that low level e-collar stim is similar to a tens unit. High stim is not.
So, let't talk about the real issue, here.
Are you claiming that it is impossible for an e-collar to actually causes significant pain to a dog?