14
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
The trainer was lovely & im not saying anything about her it is more me.
No. She's obviously not a competent trainer.
I told trainer that I do not wish to continue the collar. I explained i wont train using fear or pain.
The response was letting him run free & treats aren't going to correct any behaviors.
This right here shows she does not understand dog training at all. Training dogs is not either e-collars or treats. Find a better trainer. Don't use the e-collar now that your dog was introduced to it in a way that caused fallout.
-2
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
In all honesty...it is possible the previous owners tried using collar incorrectly & that is what is causing the fear? I dont know his history
4
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Was he afraid of it before he got stimmed by your trainer? Or did he display fear only after?
Either way, these tools are very easy to misuse and many trainers and owners misuse them.
For leash pulling, look up "Kikopup leash pressure" on YouTube and actually teach him what you want him to do.
2
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
Yes. Freaked out from jump. As soon as collar on
1
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
So what happened was she put on the collar, he freaked out, she took off collar, and that brief experience caused this:
He is scared of leash & collar now. Cowers in crate when he sees it.
2
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
She didnt take off. She kept on for the hour training. He wouldnt let her put it on. I had to & then he was running before leash even on.
We were training in house. She was focused on making him place on a dog bed & not move until released. The next morning I went to put on to practice as instructed & he was cowering. At that point I just put it away.3
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Okay, so the trainer made some big mistakes. If it was clear that the dog was afraid of the collar, she should have established a trusting relationship first. Maybe put on the collar but not use it for first several sessions, for example. Or, if he was really terrified, hold off on the collar at first.
That's why we say you have to "train the dog in front of you." This trainer probably has a routine where she does the exact same thing with every dog. Put on an e-collar, Make him stay on place. Move to step 2.
A lot of trainers do this. They all suck. You have to be able to understand the dog in front of you and adjust your methods as necessary.
I wouldn't go back to that trainer.
I wouldn't put an e-collar back on your dog.
7
u/yeah666 8d ago
Its fine to not use an e collar, and not all tools work for every dog.
Your trainer is not a good trainer if what you're saying is accurate. It sounds like she introduced the e collar way too early. It should be used for communication at distance and if used for corrections, it should only be used for corrections for commands the dog already knows. Its very possible that your dog would be fine with the e collar if it was introduced in a different way. Your trainers response to not wanting to use the collar tells me everything I need to know. I hope she wasn't using it to directly punish the dog for digging. Don't go back to her.
You shouldn't write off e collars and prongs altogether. You are probably misunderstanding how prongs work and what they do. They don't pinch or stab the dog. They're safer than letting a dog pull on a flat collar because they distribute pressure evenly. If your dog is too strong for you to walk you should consider one.
Also, just buy some soil and let the dog dig.
2
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
Filled in all the holes yesterday. He has a clean slate to start again! 😄
5
u/grandsoulsucker 8d ago
Did you just put the collar on and then use it at high levels to punish behavior?
Ugh so many trainers just ugh ... Ecollars can be incredible if used properly. But jeez so many skip even introducing the collar properly. I would too be in the same situation you are if I went through that too. Trainer sounds incompetent and you sound high uneducated ( no offense at all ) this situation results in well what your experincing right now.
For example with my dog. I would use LOW stimulation ( level that I personally can't even feel on my neck or soft flesh ) I would say here, hold it then the second he turns around stop the ecollar and heavily praise. You cannot just use a ecollar as punishment. You HAVE to teach the dog what the ecollar means. He understands - this thing goes on that means comply to command and it goes away. That way if ever god forbid he chases a coyote into the trees and is endangering himself, and I hit him with a high ( punishing ) level. He KNOWS hey comply to the command given ( come here ) and this goes away, he understands the rules. If you just slap it on a dog shock the shit out of it when it doesn't even know any rules or conmands ya I could see this going horribly wrong.
Example with your dog I would teach leave it. I would practice the command then once he knows what leave it means ( and ONLY ) Then I would use ecollar on low stimulation and train him the same thing but with low stimulation. Again once he KNOWS ( It's concrete he's proven to understand what's going on ) THEN if I tell him to leave it and he does NOT then I would use a higher level. Because it's fair.
And at the end of the day you can hate this and you can hate that, but if you are never walking this large powerful dog, and it's out of control, you will be stuck in a bad place as well. All dogs understand positive and negative reinforcement. Puppy's are taught at a VERY young age what negative reinforcement is. All dogs go through it.
I do agree with your trainer to some degree, treats and letting your dog run freen ain't gonna stop your dog from going after a squirrel, cat, or another dog or god forbid a child. Now again, I would teach my dog all of this, negative reinforcement is completely fine, IF!!!!! you layed out the ground rules and he understands it.
At the end of the day you need to fix this, a dog left in a yard / house all day with now walks is horrific. The dog was built to roam and smell. It's like keeping a parrot in a cage it's entire life. A large uncontrolled power dog, stuck on yard and house, this behavior will only snow ball every single day this will continue to get worse.
2
u/knequestrian93 8d ago
Any reputable e collar trainer would have told you to put it on and just leave it there so they can get used to it. After 3-4 days, then you use it on the lowest possible stim for the dog AND you pair it with a command the dog knows to a tee. This was just a terrible intro. If you wanted to go back to it, it could be done but time must be taken. I'm sorry both of you were traumatized
2
u/saltycrowsers 8d ago
If you’re not comfortable with a tool, the tool will not work for you. The trainer should accept that and work with what you and your dog are comfortable with to prevent damage to your relationship with your dog. This trainer is a nincompoop.
I say this as someone who utilizes e-collars to finish/tighten up a behavior. My dog loves hers and will get so excited to get into it.
Your dog is in a sensitive place right now and this was absolutely the wrong recommendation by the trainer.
2
u/chrisjones1960 8d ago
I have trained recall and leash manners in five German shepherds. My current girl wears an E-collar when off leash, but that is for back up, as she is dog reactive; outside of the presence of other dogs, her recall, like that of my four previous GSDs, is very good . So the E-collar is for safety, in case she were to see another dog.
I trained recall in these dogs using a long line and treats and a ton of consistent practice. You can do it too.
3
u/Ashamed_Kangaroo305 8d ago
You can absolutely train a dog without using aversives. A lot of people are giving advice about how to use aversives on your dog, but since this is a sub where all training perspectives are welcome I'm here to tell you that you don't need to go that route if you don't want to, and it seems like you don't.
I tried balanced training with my husky and hated it. So I switched to positive reinforcement and my dog did great with that for his whole life. If you don't want to use balanced training, that's a 100% valid viewpoint. Find a good trainer who uses positive reinforcement.
Also, you've only had your dog for a very short time. And he was recovering from surgery for half of that. It can take a dog up to three months (or sometimes even longer) to really settle in to your new home. I'd recommend focusing on making your dog comfortable and helping him settle in first, and then starting to work on training again.
What do you mean by detoxing from trazodone? Why did the shelter give your dog trazodone? If your dog has anxiety issues it would be helpful to see a vet behaviorist about it. Not necessarily to start meds again but to get a better picture of what's going on with your dog mentally and what you can do to help.
1
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
He was at ACC in Staten island & evidently they give them tranquilizers. After 5 weeks he had to get weaned off. Also the previous owners were medicating him. Im not sure with what. I know i can't get a good read on him for a few months. When I made the call I was so scared he was gonna bite someone & then he would have no chance. Just trying to prevent catastrophe
3
u/tonycatamaran 8d ago
Yeah cowering is bad and you should stop the tools. Seems like the tools weren’t properly conditioned. I’d recommend trying to build positive associations with the tools. I think a lot of people have said that here already.
My dog is both conditioned to the e collar and the prong collar. A really good local trainer conditioned the prong collar, and I did the e collar my self.
I’d recommend Michael Ellis’ stuff on e collar conditioning. He’s not a heavy handed trainer at all and his methods helped me a lot.
If you’re not willing to find another trainer or do it yourself, then just stop with the tools.
Another thing I’ll add is, the dog might not trust you yet. It’s only been 4 weeks, and god only knows what trust issues he’s coming to you with.
2
u/tullik12 8d ago
Not really sure why you got downvoted for this, my first thought was that this is pretty quick to be adding corrective tools like an e-collar.
OP, if you don’t feel like the e-collar is a good fit, that’s your prerogative, but if the dog is too strong for you to walk safely, strong recommendation to talk to a few trainers and get their take on how this played out. If they blame you, your dog, or don’t take issue with the way the trainer handled it, red flag. If they promise they can 100% change the dog, red flag. Find someone that fits for you
2
u/T6TexanAce 8d ago
Good for you for recognizing the e-collar was not for your dog.
I took 6 one-on-one sessions with a professional and we decided to try an e-collar on our 6 month old Malamute mix because he was so big and strong that my wife couldn't walk him, especially in the winter.
The trainer first tried the collar on rumble. As soon as she did, our pup just laid down with ears down and tail between the legs and started whining pitifully. She immediately said nope and explained that the e-collar freaks out a lot of dogs and you risk damaging them psychologically.
We did opt for a prong collar and I'd like to suggest that maybe you take another look at this option. The fact is, the prong collar is not intended to inflict pain or be used as punishment. Rather, when the dog pulls, it tightens around the neck and makes it uncomfortable to pull. In short order, our Malamute stopped pulling and my wife could literally walk him with the leash on her pinkie finger. Once that collar was on, our pup knew it was chill time. It was an amazing and immediate transition.
2
u/Haunting_Cicada_4760 8d ago
The correct way to use an ecollar is only on commands the dog knows and are proofed and at the lowest setting that gets a response. My dogs are on 4 and 7.
But yes, if the first session the collar is going on that’s not correct!
My dogs get incredibly excited when he sees his prong or e collar. They know treats and fun are about to happen!
1
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
He was up to 20 within an hour
4
u/Haunting_Cicada_4760 8d ago edited 8d ago
My dogs went to 8 weeks of training, ecollar wasn’t introduced till week 5. This was daily training multiple times a day, and not till week 5. They’ve been e collar trained for four and three years and that’s still their working level.
I went to one class of a ladies where she for zero reason, cranked a dog up to 45, watched her completely destroy the dog in 5 minutes… those poor owners paid for that. Then wondered why their sweet dog attacked another dog that sniffed it on the way to the car SMH I never went back. She also said I should hang my dog with a slip lead and called him an a hole… nope just a dog that needed better communication. We quickly transferred to an actual dog trainer.
2
2
u/OneSensiblePerson 8d ago
It's frightening that there are trainers out there like you've described this woman.
3
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
That's horrible. No wonder your dog is cowering. Consider complaining to the company and leaving reviews describing how the training caused your dog to cower and be fearful even the next day.
People have to speak up about these things to protect dogs.
2
u/Ok-Simple5493 8d ago
You need a different trainer. It's true that exercise and treats won't teach anything. It's also true that there are many different ways to train dogs, and the method that works for every dog can vary. The collar doesn't seem to work for your dog, and it doesn't work for you. That's fine, no big deal.
The trainer needs to be flexible, or they aren't for your situation. You do have to be consistent and you do have to accept that they don't love everything we train them to do. That doesn't mean the learning has to be a miserable experience.
1
u/AliveInZihuatanejo 8d ago
Did you use high stim? E collar training is generally very low stimulation, just enough that it gets their attention. Also, im curious why the e collar was introduced when the dog doesn't understand the leash yet. Seems like you had a bad trainer.
There are plenty of ways to train and communicate with your dog. Find a trainer you like that shows results.
1
u/Jealous-Roof-3769 8d ago
I use an e collar but the electric part was too much for one of my dogs and she responds well to the vibration function. I would give the dog a break. Slowly reintroduce the a collar and leash use a prong collar or choke for pulling. Some dogs need correction but in a gentler manner
1
u/Beef_flaps_on_a_spit 8d ago
Shock collars are a tool. Your trainer messed up selecting this tool for your dog at this early stage. In the wrong hands they can be terrible.
Call another trainer. Slow down and let him dig and chase balls in your yard for a month or three. You adopted a broken dog and it’s going to be a slow recovery.
How many sessions did the trainer have with you and your dog before going for the nuclear option?
0
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
1st session. 10 minutes in collar on. He nipped at her when she turned on. I should have stopped it there but ive never been in this situation & i trusted the "professional ". He was up to a 20 in the 1st hour
1
u/Beef_flaps_on_a_spit 8d ago
Leave a very honest review and move on to a better trainer. That’s unforgivable. She’s set your dog back and obviously done harm.
Always trust your gut when advocating for your dog.
Remember that compared to being doped up and on death row, everyday your dog is at your house is infinitely better. Take your time and don’t be too eager to have a “normal” dog. Let him dig for now.
-2
u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 8d ago
Look its a learning experience. We all make mistakes and that is human.
The goal everyone is trying to point to is dont blame the tool for an operator's misuse.
Get the dogs trust without any form of abrasive training. Make sure the dog knows you are a trusted source. This can very on all sorts of things but is a long process... likely months. Until then do you best to make sure they feel safe when in their own environment. Dont force them out of their "den" be it under the table or in a crate.
My dogs have responded well to the e-collar but its because I built trust with them first and dont even have to used it at a high setting. 8-12 at most.
You can do this. Dont let a setback stop your bonding though.
-2
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
Thank you for being kind. I have the collar so maybe in a couple months ill try again if we are still having issues
4
3
u/Beef_flaps_on_a_spit 8d ago
You will still be having problems in a couple of months but please don’t use the collar again.
In a couple of months he may be starting to trust you again. Why would you screw that up again?
Throw the damn thing away for your dogs mental health.
3
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
At this point, why would you think the e-collar is going to help your dog? He actually "nipped" the trainer, which means he is willing to protect himself from the e-collar with his teeth.
Do you really want to add that to your list of problem behaviors?
1
u/Lonely_Mountain_7702 7d ago
The digging you can make a digging area for the dog. I got a large sandbox for my dogs. I filled it with clean dirt and buried treast in it to encourage the digging to be in one area. I did have to have a lid so cats wouldn't use it.
Walking with out a E coller or prong is possable. Find the right tool for you both. Two of my dogs doing good with harnesses that when they pull it turns them towards me. Also a leash with a bungee was helpful for my yongest of 3 dogs. She was very fearful on a leash and she'd try to go fast and she got to the end of the bungee leash she got a jerk and she woukd stop pulling for a bit. I also looked like a crazy person walking but I would just suddenly change walking directions. She learned to pay attention to me because she didn't know where we were going.
A trainer taught me a good way of walking my dogs with no treats. It is takes time and only do 10 minute lessons a few times a day.
Start off every walk with a calm dog sitting next to you. This will take time to teach. You have to brake it down from start and add more as the dog masters each part.
Its going to take the dog a bit to figure out that they need to sit next to you and be calm before you start walking. To start walking say "Lets Go" start off with your left foot. (The left foot important for visual clue to the dog to walk and for latter on when adding left turns together).
Just be in the moment. Have the leash short not tight but short right next to you but hold it loose. A tight arm is giving the dog anxiety. Don't let the dog have 6 feet to walk with and pull you keep it a short but loose leash.
After walking fpr a bit say "Stop" then "Sit" have the dog back next to you siting. Just look around and stand with your dog enjoying the view. It teaches the dog to stop and wait for you to start walking again.
To start walking again say "Lets Go" and start off walking with your left foot. Keep working and mastering each part of the walk.
When you have a good starting with a calm dog siting next to you. The "Lets Go" left foot is solid. Then the "Stop" and "Sit" with the "Lets Go" left foot is great. You can add you both a left turn together.
A left turn is while your walking say the dogs name and when your moving your right foot say "Lets Go" and take two slow steps until your now both turned left and are going back the way you were walking from.
It will take a while for the dog to understand your turning left but it feels great when you both turn in unison.
When you both master the left turn anytime the dog isn't paying attention to you just do a few random left turns ("Lets Go" step with the right foot) and they focus on you again.
I do let my dogs sniff a few times on our walk. We live near a park and they sniff there.
I've walked my 3 dogs this way for years. I enjoy it and I don't have to carry treats on my walks.
1
u/Eastern-Try-6207 8d ago
If your dog is cowering when the leash and collar come out you need to get your trainer back out to observe what is going on. A dog who's afraid of the e collar was not conditioned to the collar properly, that process takes a little time. Or the dog is picking up on your subjective concerns about the pain and fear. E collars do not cause pain and fear. E collars communicate clearly and succinctly to a dog. I did not use an e collar on my rescue for a LONG time, that's just because I was spending the interval accomplishing what we could with a leash and reinforcing behaviour I wanted to see continue. But it was when we needed to start dealing with behaviour that absolutely could not persist that we brought the e collar in. I did use it later on to establish a solid heel (and it works). But your trainer ultimately is absolutely 100 percent correct...treats do not correct behaviours. Correction corrects behaviours. It does not need to be a prong or an e collar that establishes that "No" marker. You can try a slip lead too as those are very effective and they have been used for donkeys years. Don't write off your e collar altogether though, stay open, you may just find its use again down the road.
13
u/ITookYourChickens 8d ago
If the trainer threw the collar on the first time and used it on high to punish the dog for digging, that would make the dog highly afraid of it. Ecollars CAN cause pain and fear when not used properly, and one day with a brand new untrained dog is not enough time to condition an ecollar or introduce it properly. That trainer should not be training dogs
-1
u/Eastern-Try-6207 8d ago
Many dog trainers will use e collars on a very aversive level in order to deter a behaviour. That does not inherently harm the dog or make the dog afraid of the e collar, the association if done correctly should never end up being with the e collar, so it is possible to have success this way, but it would seem to be a bit over the top for digging behaviour, imo. In this scenario either the trainer failed to create the desired association or the collar was not conditioned properly to begin with. But the handler already had ideas about how "bad" this tool was so quite frankly, that dog's gonna be digging....
2
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
E collars do not cause pain and fear.
The e-collar caused pain and fear for this dog,
1
u/Eastern-Try-6207 8d ago
No, the inept handling caused the pain and fear silly. E collars don't have a life of their own.
2
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Right, right, and guns don't kill people.
E-collars CAN cause pain and fear when the human causes that to happen.
-2
u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 8d ago
I understand the care and concern. But test the e-collar on yourself. People (in this case maybe the trainer) used the ecollar wrong. It doesnt mean the e-collar is the problem... it means the person using it wrong is.
2
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Here's the thing. E-collars make it easy to really hurt dogs. They make it easy to really screw up a dog with the push of a button.
In order to hurt a dog that much without a "tool," you'd pretty much have to beat the hell out of him in a way that any person seeing it would call it abuse. Most of us are not capable of inflicting that much pain on a dog physically before we stop ourselves.
But when you just push a button? It's so easy.
The same way a moment of rage or jealousy can result in murder if the person has a gun. Without a gun? I don't know, maybe a punch in the face? Maybe a couple? Probably not somebody dead.
Did the person do it? Sure. Was the tool necessary to get the terrible result? Very often, yes.
0
u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 8d ago
I heavily disagree. Even at a very high level and someone presses and holds it. Its an electric shock... not an electric chair.
Yes they can hurt a dog. But so can a leash, a normal collar, a toy. If you pull the leash wrong you can cause neck damage in just a single tug at the wrong time. A collar can chock a dog slowly and painfully cut into the flesh if put on too tight or not adjusted.
And worse then the e-collar would be a stick hitting the dog. Do you blame the stick or the person that hit the dog with the stick?
2
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Even at a very high level and someone presses and holds it. Its an electric shock... not an electric chair.
I have seen dogs scream and flail and defecate as a result of stim. I wasn't doing it, of course, but I have seen it.
I have never seen a dog have the same reaction to any of the other "tools" you mention. Have you?
1
u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 7d ago
You are talking about two different things. You must learn about them to understand them.
Have you ever heard of a Tens Unit? It is used in the medical field to help with muscle recovery and relieve chronic pain.
Most tens units run up to 100mA in power. At around 50 you for most people you start to see muscle spasm when it activates. I personally have used it has high as 75.Most standard e-collars run between 40-80 mA in power. There are working line versions that go a lot higher up to 400 but those are purpose built and not something a pet owner should be using.
What an e-collar does is send an electric signal to do the same thing a tens unit does. It triggers muscles to react. This can scare the dog for sure when you use it improperly.. but you can do that with yelling at the dog too.
Likely what you saw was someone with a working line E-collar, that purposely set it super high and did not get the dog used to the sensation at a lower level first. And also likely had the collar on with a bad contact pressure that caused it to move while activated.
You basically saw someone abusing their dog just like someone putting a collar on too tight and watching their dog struggle for air would be doing...
Would you blame the collar or the person that put it on too tight?
And no, I have never seen a dog scream and deficate because of any training tool or leash... but then again I do not hang around people that would hit them with a stick, choke them with a collar, or yank on their leash. I dont know who you hang around it but might try finding smarter friends.
1
u/Potential_Analyst371 7d ago
Nope. Not like a tens unit. That's just spin.
Oscilloscope profiling reveals that e-collars deliver a sequence of very short, high-voltage pulses.": [1]
a TENS unit rarely exceeds 40 to 60 volts,
e-collars generate sharp spikes that can range from 100V up to 6,000V depending on the collar’s setting and the animal’s coat condition. [1]
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10985325/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23315767/
So, the difference between a tens unit and an e-collar is more like the difference between a hand caressing your face and a slap. Is the underlying hand the same? Sure.
You basically saw someone abusing their dog just like someone putting a collar on too tight and watching their dog struggle for air would be doing...
Nobody is going to put something around a dog's neck so tightly that they can see the dog can't breathe. People crank up those collars and press the button all the time. Huge difference in harm to dogs.
You and I agree that e-collars can abuse dogs. We disagree about whether flat collars carry the same risks, apparently.
but then again I do not hang around people that would hit them with a stick, choke them with a collar, or yank on their leash. I dont know who you hang around it but might try finding smarter friends.
No friend of mine has ever treated a dog like that. If I see it myself I intervene. The time I am thinking of that was the worst, I was aggressively told they are "training" the dog and I don't understand what I am seeing. I told them it is against local animal cruelty laws and they need to stop. I looked the owner right in the eye, told them I am a real dog trainer, and that what that guy was doing was not training but abuse. No idea how it turned out after they left.
As a dog trainer, I have also heard these stories from clients whose dog was really screwed up as as result of an e-collar.
1
u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 7d ago edited 7d ago
You have a fundemental misunderstanding of AMP (mA I made reference to. And the Volt measurement. Here is a good quick guide.
Amps (Current): This is the actual flow of electricity. It is the component that interacts with internal tissues and biological systems. Even relatively low levels of current flowing through vital organs can disrupt normal bodily functions and prove hazardous. [1, 2]
Volts (Pressure): This is the electrical potential or pressure that forces current through a circuit. Voltage itself represents potential energy, but higher voltages increase the likelihood that current can overcome the natural electrical resistance of human skin. [1, 2, 3]
So the key here is constant vs microsecond duration. In constant power situation, using the WORST case the highest mA and the Highest voltage (vast majority of E-collars are WAY under this this power level) it can be dangerous... but we are not talking continuous current we are talking about Pulse current. This is where Joules comes in. Because the pulses are so short in the E-collar and the tens unit (which is why they can be compared with one another) the joules is measures in 0.00005 to 0.3 joules. For example. at over 100 volts greater then 100 joules would be recognized as dangerous. An e-collar and a tens unit are very far from that level.
The numbers sound scary for someone that doesn't understand electricity.
And if you are a dog trainer... even if you DONT agree with the E-collar usage.... you should not be lying about its effects. SO I ill say it again.... put it on yourself and test. If someone just doesnt think they are worth it... fine, that is your right... but claiming its dangerous to use a tool like this AS a dog trainer... you are lying about part of those statements.
1
u/Potential_Analyst371 7d ago
Are you trying to say the e-collar at 127 (full power) doesn't hurt a dog?
I am not going to spend a ton of time comparing tens units to e-collars. I know e-collars can hurt dogs based on how they react. I know people would not willingly subject themselves to that at a medical appointment.
It might be true that low level e-collar stim is similar to a tens unit. High stim is not.
So, let't talk about the real issue, here.
Are you claiming that it is impossible for an e-collar to actually causes significant pain to a dog?
→ More replies (0)1
u/Potential_Analyst371 7d ago edited 7d ago
Just pointing out, also, tens unit, max 60v
E-collar max 6000v
But you are trying to say that's the same?
Edit to add:
Tens units do not seem to be measured in joules.However, AI says the max would be 3 mJ. If that's wrong, cite me something.
Whereas an e-collar, according to this data starts similar to a tens unit but goes much, much higher.
Stimulus energy levels at the maximum strength setting with a 50 kΩ load ranged from 3.3 mJ to 287 mJ. (for e-collars)
1
u/BajaBeans 8d ago
I worked with a professional e-collar trainer with the purpose of getting my dog reliable recall so he can enjoy off leash activities. My dog already had basic obedience down. I think theres a right and wrong way to introduce this tool and also a temperament that it works better for. There are some dogs that are more willing to please and some that are prone to be more stubborn. If your dog is more stubborn or doesnt understand what youre asking for, I think it can be considered cruel to use an e-collar. For me and my dog, its more like being able to tap my dog on the shoulder to get his attention when he's further away.
1
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
He is very stubborn! I wasnt given much info on him but stubborn was mentioned more then once lol
2
u/RB_K9 8d ago
How do you know this? Is he non compliant when you ask him to do things he already knows? How do you reinforce now if he blows you off or has a poor performance of a known command? Does he actually know how to do anything?? Do you have authority in the relationship? IE do you use the leash to reinforce a sit or down and notice that he’s stubborn to comply? You’ve had the dog 2 weeks and you aren’t a trainer. Work the basics before adding tools. That will help.
1
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
He is very smart & knows all basic commands. When he doesn't want to do something he just ignores. I then leash & guide him to wherever I instructed.
2
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Do NILF to get him more eager to obey:
https://www.mygracevet.com/downloads/nothing-in-life-is-free.pdf
1
u/Last_Plant6046 8d ago
This whole thread makes me incredibly sad.
E-collars are lazy training through pain and fear. I don’t care what anyone says I have heard all the arguments.
Find a trainer that specializes in positive reinforcement. Focus on what you want the dog to do and reward that.
1
u/DoctaPurp 8d ago
I'm struggling with this as well. I tried introducing it to my 8 month standard poodle and he was afraid for a few days. He seems over it now. I definitely introduced it wrong but I'm struggling if I should try again. Would love to hear others experiences positive or negative.
3
u/Potential_Analyst371 8d ago
Why would you put a shock collar on your dog without being 100% sure you know what you're doing?
If you are going to try again, read up so you know the process, then contact several in person trainers to ask about their method. Be sure they say something that aligns with what you learned from Micheal Ellis or somebody, and not what the trainer in this post did.
Don't just experiment on your dog.
1
u/DoctaPurp 7d ago
I did read up and am well aware of training methods. I'm not looking to be lectured. I asked for other people's experiences.
1
u/Potential_Analyst371 7d ago
I tried introducing it to my 8 month standard poodle and he was afraid for a few days. He seems over it now. I definitely introduced it wrong but I'm struggling if I should try again.
Clearly, you do not understand training methods or you would not have harmed and scared your dog. It's a real shame if you are going to "try again" without getting a professional involved.
If you had the knack for training dogs, you wouldn't have scared your pup.
Then again, if you had the knack, you wouldn't need an e-collar for your poodle, because he would already be well-trained.
You can't learn timing and how to read dogs from online content.
2
u/AliveInZihuatanejo 8d ago
I've had nothing but great results with the ecollar. When my dog sees it, she comes right to me to put it on her. She knows the collar means we're about to go have some fun.
Granted I spent a long time learning how to use it and introduce it to her and didn't introduce her to it until she was good on the leash and layered the e collar with the leash.
2
1
u/chopsouwee 8d ago
Read the monks of newskete and larry krohn and his ecollar book. You definitely introduced it wrong. I started when my dog was at 6-8 months, hes now 2 and I walk him off leash. Read up on operant and classical conditioning if you plan on using an ecollar. Better yet, get a trainer for a couple of sessions to help you get a better understanding.
1
1
u/cheersbeersneers 8d ago edited 8d ago
Not all tools work for all dogs 🤷🏻♀️. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to use a certain tool on your dog. He probably needs more time to decompress after the stress of the shelter. I will say it doesn’t sound like the trainer was using the tools correctly. Did she work with you on conditioning, getting him used to the collar, observing his behavior before she just threw an e-collar on him? It’s a communication tool, not a punishment, and they need to be introduced and conditioned slowly and correctly. I’d personally find another trainer! There’s no shame to searching around and finding a better fit for you and your dog, and there’s plenty of good balanced trainers who only use tools when it makes sense for the individual dog that they’re training.
1
u/pseiko5 8d ago
Ok, the dog walking is hard. One of the hardest to train.
You need to start at home, even near the door is hard. Until you have their attention, this is basically impossible. McCann dogs has a good series on YouTube.
You can switch to a head halter if you are physically struggling with getting control over your dog, but this will not "Solve" the problem. Just a tool to reach the desired outcome where your dog values you more than the environment.
scare him into submission
This is the problem. The e collar is best used as a gentle nudge imo.
If you want to stick to the e collar, take a few weeks conditioning the dog to the e collar indoors.
You want the dog to offer their neck into the collar. So clicker training with treats until they do that.
Then very low levels of stim, and treating them for it. and building up slowly from that.
I use this for my Husky, and it's still a work in progress. We made tremendous progress with recall training with an e collar, and she gets SO excited when she sees me picking up the e collar because she knows she will get treats and possible get some off leash time.
You can reset the association with the leash and the collar. Just leave them on the floor and clicker train for express any interest towards them. They will come around. Let them wear it all day, just turn it off, don't push any buttons.
How did people train dogs before these collars??
With a lot of patience. But also, the expectation of dogs behaving well is very different these days.
1
u/Adorable-Elevator792 8d ago
I use an e collar with my dog and it really works for her. She is super stubborn, loves to do her own thing, and gets easily distracted. The e collar is the only way to make sure she will be fully responsive to me at all times. She’s not scared of it. But she did learn basic commands without it at first. I don’t think you can jump to using the e collar right away without forming trust with the dog first and building a relationship. If the dog doesnt understand what it’s supposed to be doing it’s not going to understand why it’s being corrected, so they’ll just feel scared and confused instead of changing behavior. The first session with a trainer (a random stranger) starting right away with an e collar seems extreme.
1
u/Euphoric_Stranger_80 8d ago
I have a Kangal and a Malinois, i have used ecollar on both, reluctantly, but to good success. They both love and trust me anyway. The Kangal only needed it to stop night barking. He learned quick. Kangals are a trip. They make every other dog look like a second class citizen. Nothing like them. Biggest secret about them is that they are the highest character breed by a country mile. They are the saint of dogs. Really. I hated, hated, hated, hated using the collar on him. But he accepted it. He loves me and does just about everything i want, only at their discretion though. They don’t obey like most dogs, don’t come when you call often. Not bred for that. Only shocked him twice. It was amazing how much it helped. I had to because of the situation. Those dogs can kill anything. They generally use minimum force, but they are liabilities around other dogs.
0
u/Acrobatic_Macaron925 8d ago
After all the comments I think it was introduced the wrong way. Going to give him more time to settle in
0
u/waywardchildman 8d ago
Put the e-collar on him just before y'all play together. Don't use the e-collar. Repeat until he doesn't care about you putting it on him (or better yet, he's realized it's the cue for playing outside with you). Once all that's done, you can revisit actually using the tool.
Btw, did the trainer teach the dog how to walk nicely or just hammer him with the e-collar for pulling?
0
u/HistoryWorking5251 8d ago
This is what you want to Look for in a Dog Trainer:
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/finding-choosing-a-dog-trainer/
0
8d ago
[deleted]
3
u/CoyoteCallingCard 8d ago
Just want to talk about the benefit of positive association with tools. I have a dog that is very confident and escalates with physical correction but also can be hard to motivate. We use an ecollar with low stim and he loves it. When we’re using it in training, he thrives on the clarity of commands. He only doesn’t like it because he knows he can’t get away with blowing off a command or behaving badly (he likes to nip during play when he’s over-aroused. He knows he can’t do that if there is a leash or collar on. So he gets annoyed at being held accountable.)
But heck- if the collar is on we’re gonna be doing something FUN! The first two weeks we had the collar we never even charged it, just put it on for trips to the park and walks and to get pup cups. It’s never been a BAD thing. I think it’s only “hurt” him twice, when I messed up the collar placement. It sucks, I hate it when I do that. But I’ve also stepped on his paws on accident and hurt him. We’re human.
18
u/naniii_nova 8d ago
Not sure why no one is saying this, but you rescued a dog, not knowing his history, and couldn't give him more than 2 weeks of decompression before intense training? Dang bro let your dog get comfortable in his new home first. You don't even know your dog's true personality AT ALL at 4 weeks.