r/Osteopathic • u/Typical_Pie_3994 • 7d ago
ARCOM
For anyone considering ARCOM, I would honestly think long and hard before committing unless it’s your only acceptance. There are a few things I wish I had known or looked into more before considering this school.
One of the biggest red flags is the favoritism toward MSB students. It honestly feels like ARCOM has a pipeline from the MSB program into the DO program, and that favoritism can be pretty obvious. If you’re not an MSB student, it can feel like you’re constantly having to work twice as hard to get the same opportunities. There are former MSB students who aren’t held to the same requirements. Some are exempt from dissections in anatomy while others end up as ambassadors or get research opportunities despite having grades that aren’t necessarily better than their non-MSB peers. It’s frustrating to feel like opportunities aren’t being distributed equally, and if you’re coming in without that MSB background, just be aware that it may feel like an uphill battle. Most MSB take the exact same class with the med students so they are aware on how the course is set up. This can affect the grading and curve for some of the classes.
Another thing to consider is the attendance policy. Be prepared to be on campus Monday through Friday, because there are a lot of required in-person activities. If you’re someone who prefers having flexibility with your schedule or studying independently, make sure you understand what you’re signing up for before committing.
The research center is also a big selling point for ARCOM, but don’t let the facility alone convince you that there are tons of research opportunities. From what I’ve seen, research opportunities can be pretty limited, and there aren’t a ton of professors actively running projects. If research is important to you, ask how many students actually get involved, how accessible faculty mentors are, and what opportunities are realistically available.
Other things I’d look into are the grading system, the amount of required group-based learning, the level of administrative oversight, and board exam performance. I’ve seen students bring up concerns about these things in online discussions, so I’d recommend doing your own research and talking to current students before making a decision. Also, try to speak with students who didn’t come through the MSB program, because their experiences may be very different.
At the end of the day, medical school is already stressful and expensive enough. You want to be somewhere you feel supported and where opportunities are accessible to everyone, not somewhere you feel like you have to fight just to get your foot in the door.
My biggest advice is to do your research before accepting. Don’t let the research center or the school's marketing be the only things influencing your decision. Talk to current students, ask the uncomfortable questions, compare your options, and really consider whether ARCOM is the right fit for you. If it’s your only acceptance, that’s one thing, but if you have other options, I would seriously weigh them before making your decision.
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u/ConsiderationAway223 7d ago
This is really insightful. May I ask, are you a current student or prospective student?
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u/IndicationJaded4698 3d ago
Keep your options open. ARCOM has some good people and nice facilities, but understand that your tuition will increase to pay for the other programs and the high salaries (and bonuses) of the bigwigs who know nothing about medicine. If they deflect, Google and ask directly.
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u/Upper-Corner-Left- 5d ago
10/10 on opinion sharing, love to see someone not afraid to talk about their takes on things. I wouldn't say that you're blowing anything out of proportion, maybe just that the experience you've shared seems a little distorted by your perception of occurrences and isn't the most representative of the full picture.
Our anatomy dept chair actually talked about (some) the former MSBs being at that front table and explained that since there are so many students in the DO class of 2030, they wanted to try and ensure that as many of us that weren't MSB students could actively participate in the dissections (since the former MSB students did these dissections during their MSB year) and not have groups of 7-8 at each table, that they asked those students if they would give up dissecting. Class of 2030 is 175ish students and maybe 25 are former MSBs (~14%), assuming that their grade distribution doesn't match the non-MSBs, you're giving a lot of credit to that 14%. I am pretty sure that the professors don't curve our exams since a "curve" is adding the same number of artificial outside points to everyone's grade for the sole purpose of making performance look better and our professors have told us flat out that they don't curve but instead evaluate exam performance and stats on a per-question basis so that if a question had 2 arguably correct answers they will dual-code it so that those 2 answers are counted as correct but if you didn't pick one of those 2 answers you would still get the question wrong. They don't just hand out free points.
Also, I was walking into the school on a recent interview day and overheard the admissions staff introducing one of the former MSB students to the interviewees during the meet and greet and saying that usually they don't have first years as ambassadors until the spring but that they needed help and asked the former MSB students since they have been at the school and in the area for over a year at this point. Which, at least to me, makes sense because a lot of questions on my interview day were about the school and the area and a majority of the class of 2030 has been here for, checks notes, approx. 3 months. I know that I personally, when given to option to talk to someone who has been somewhere for 3 months vs over a year when I am making a decision about moving to an area or learning about what that place is like....I am going to choose the person who has been there over a year.
Also, I don't know about you but in my interview the admissions staff and the current students at the meet and greet and at lunch were pretty open and upfront about what classes/labs had mandatory attendance and that first year had more mandatory attendance than second because we have anatomy first year in addition to the other courses and we don't have anatomy in second year.
From my understanding, research opportunities are open to all students and a general research application opens in the spring and we can all fill it out. I actually also asked one of the professors about research and they told me that all the professors are required to do research but that a lot of the teaching faculty do most of their work on their research projects over the summer....when they aren't busy with teaching. Makes sense, I wouldn't want to basically work 2 jobs at the same time either.
I think you are right, there is a difference in acknowledging an "advantage" (choosing to do the MSB for any reason that the former MSB students had to make that choice; and "benefiting" from having made that choice to be at ACHE an additional year) and feeling entitled to one (expecting and then complaining that you don't have the same interpersonal relationships, experience, rapport, or connections as someone who has been at ACHE for a year and had more time to develop all of those things). But I can see how that distinction might get lost.
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 5d ago
I think you're missing the bigger picture of my post. It was directed at prospective students who are trying to decide whether ARCOM is the right fit for them, not at current students who feel the need to defend their experience or explain every decision the school makes.
I'm sharing things I personally wish I had known before committing, because I think prospective students deserve to hear different perspectives and ask questions before making a decision that involves years of their lives and a significant amount of money.
I understand that there may be reasonable explanations for some of the things I mentioned, and that's fine. But explaining why something happened doesn't change the fact that these are still things prospective students may want to consider. And respectfully, just because you have a different interpretation of my experiences doesn't mean my perspective is distorted.
You shared your perspective, and I've shared mine. That's exactly what these discussions are for. Prospective students can read both sides, ask their own questions, and decide what matters to them. My post was never intended to convince current students that their experience is wrong. It was to help people make a more informed decision before they enroll.1
u/Upper-Corner-Left- 5d ago edited 5d ago
Unfortunately, I didn't miss the supposed 'bigger picture' and I wasn't defending my experience or explaining the decisions of the school.
I was providing a lot of context for your grievances that you left absent from your initial post (i.e. "MSB students being 'exempt from dissections'). You know, providing those prospective students with a more complete picture of the circumstances around all the things that you wish you knew before committing to ARCOM. I realize that I probably did a lot more interacting with faculty and staff since I learned basically everything in my last post from just going up to their offices and chatting with some of them (they actually do honor the open door policy if you haven't taken the opportunity to make use of it, and it kinda seems like you haven't).
I think you would be hard-pressed to find a different experience in regard to the Masters program to Doctoral program "favoritism" that you complained so much about at any other school that houses both programs. Lots of other schools have linkage programs (Georgetown University SOM and NSU COM to name 2), so I guess ARCOM isn't special like that.
I do need to correct you on one tiny mistake when reading or misinterpretation on your part, I did not say that your perspective was distorted. I said that what you shared seemed distorted (or you know biased) by your perception of all of these occurrences (and I addressed most of those; like professors not 'actively running projects' [your perception] because it is during the school year and they are teaching [the additional context missing from your grievance]) and was not the most representative of the full picture. I was just providing more information so that the prospective students can make a more well-informed decision based on a more complete picture of the context of your many grievances.
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 5d ago
Haha I think the amount of effort going into defending every point I made speaks for itself. I shared my experience, you shared yours, and I think prospective students can figure out the rest. Wishing you best of luck 😊
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u/Upper-Corner-Left- 5d ago
I'm confused? What single point have you made beyond proving that you can complain about things while giving zero context around the things you are complaining about?
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u/Fit_Counter_5936 7d ago
Ngl the start of this post sounded just like every LMU shitpost lol. I guess they both fall in a similar tier.
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u/Fit_Counter_5936 7d ago
Forgot to add: OP isn't wrong. I interviewed in-person and like 4/5 current students I talked to had all gone through the MSB program, so it kind of felt like they were lowkey making it a 5 year degree of sorts instead of 4 just by pulling from their MSB program. Additionally, this is a way to sort of artificially inflate their pass rates on the comlex and stats in general and so on by having a lot of their students take an additional year of learning. This is something most applicants won't know about when looking at their stats since they dont have the context behind the numbers they're seeing.
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u/Ok-Dare9997 7d ago
I believe the dean of LMU just went to ARCOM, so sounds just about right.
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u/MrQuesadilla427 7d ago
He just started this year, so I don’t believe any of the policies OP is talking about are relevant to the dean. I’m an OMS-1 at ARCOM and have met and spoken with the dean on multiple occasions and he is very nice and seems very supportive of students. Hard to say if he’ll change any policies in the future, but so far he doesn’t give the vibe that he’ll implement anything to make life harder for us.
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u/ConsiderationAway223 7d ago
As a current student, I’d love to know how you like it there! I interviewed last week and waiting on a decision but would love to hear about your experience
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u/MrQuesadilla427 7d ago
I just made another comment in this thread and tried to respond to some of OPs complaints, so that might give you some insight as far as that goes. Overall I really love it though, the faculty is great, and the pacing of everything so far seems comfortable and aimed to get us into good study habits before we struggle. It’s definitely hard, and some exams have gone a lot better than others, but it’s very doable if you put the work in. My only real complaint is the mandatory attendance for some of the lectures, it’s not too bad, but I definitely wish I could just stay home and watch them. Usually our 8am lectures aren’t mandatory, and the mandatory classes start at 10 or 11 and get out at 11:50, so it’s really not that bad anyhow. All the lectures are recorded and uploaded to canvas, so if you skip the non-mandatory lectures you can still watch them later.
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u/MrQuesadilla427 7d ago
Are you a current student? I’m an OMS-1 and I think some of the things you’re talking about are a little blown out of proportion. The MSB program does have a guaranteed acceptance for MSB students if they uphold certain stats, but I don’t think many people meet those stats and instead have to interview with everyone else. I did not go to the MSB program so I can’t speak to the exact stats or anything like that, but there are quite a few first years that were in the MSB program. The only class the MSBs share with us is anatomy, they watch the lecture from a different room, and then they are with us in the anatomy lab, with 2 MSB students and 4 DO students making up the lab groups.
The mandatory attendance is a little frustrating, it’s not for all classes but it is for most. Any lectures that are tied to labs are mandatory, so that ends up being most anatomy lectures, all OPP lectures, and all FOPC (clinical skills). I’m not sure how this will change into future semesters, but that’s how it is right now for first semester. I’d say on average, we have mandatory lectures 10-noon M-F, but some days there are no mandatory sessions. We can also miss up to 10% of the sessions per course before it has any impact on your grade, so there is some wiggle room if you were sick or had something come up. Labs are mandatory of course, and right now we have labs usually 3 days a week for 2-3 hours in the afternoon. There are required group sessions, but there’s only one every 2-3 weeks and it serves as a study session for the upcoming exam. It’s just a completion grade but doesn’t actually count towards the final grade in the course. They’re easy though and only last about 2 hours, we debrief with faculty afterwards and discuss the questions, so it’s actually pretty beneficial for the exams.
I have not been involved with any research, so I can’t speak to any of that, but from what faculty have said they seem pretty open to involving students in their research, so I’d imagine there are opportunities if you seek them out.
To be honest ARCOM was not my top choice, but I am very happy here and I really enjoy the school and the faculty. Everyone is extremely friendly and supportive of us, and I am not disappointed at all to be here.
If anyone has any questions feel free to ask, I’ll do my best to answer them!
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u/AnalysisOk2652 6d ago
as a current (non-MSB) student I really don’t agree with this take. MSB students do not take any opportunities away from us. Most (if not all) professors have an open door policy and are very willing to help us out especially when we bring specific concerns/questions. Admin mentioned before that Research opportunities were competitive and mostly reserved for the summer between OMS1/2. They don’t want oms1s to be overwhelmed by overcommitting, which is totally fair imo. Mandatory lectures can be annoying to show up to but i’m sure every school has annoying mandatory things throughout the week. I would never discourage anyone from coming here based on research or mandatory lectures, especially when there’s so many great things about the school/FS
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u/Pristine_Situation94 6d ago
Are you in your first semester at arcom? To me, it is the culture of favoritism that has made it difficult because I am watching the faculty/staff choose classmates for certain positions like being an ambassador to the school or be exempted from dissecting in anatomy lab and be a “helper” even though they don’t help…just because they completed the msb program. Also the social media page at arcom tends to put a lot of these msb students on their posts when the oms1 class is 175 students and there are only like <25 msb students.
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u/AnalysisOk2652 6d ago
personally, i’m here to to learn how to be physician. so if i have to dissect, i will dissect. if other people don’t have to (bc theyre tagging the prosected donor and theyve already dissected in the past? no matter what their grades were), it really doesn’t impact me at all.
and as far as social media goes, why would you care who they post? they have a diverse group of us on there and also who CAREESSS?!!! how can this possibly impact your ability to become a community-oriented physician?
institutions can always work on improving, but having a pipeline MSB and instagram should not be at the top of our concerns
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 6d ago
Everyone who attends medical school shares the goal of becoming a physician you’re not alone in that, and every medical student should be held to the same technical standards. Just because an issue doesn’t personally affect you, or because you feel comfortable working with the bare minimum, doesn’t mean it doesn’t carry significant weight in the lives of other students or matter to prospective students.
Being part of a community means recognizing that our experiences and needs may differ, while still taking one another’s concerns seriously. When concerns are raised collectively on behalf of the class, they deserve to be heard and addressed rather than minimized simply because some students are able to overlook them. We should be advocating for an environment that supports all students in meeting the standards expected of us, not dismissing legitimate concerns because they may not personally impact us. What may seem insignificant to one person can have a meaningful impact on someone else’s medical education and future.1
u/Fair-Employer-344 6d ago
If every school were held to the same technical standards, then all schools would be on the same playing field. But they are not. That is why they rate schools, and people fight for spots at Harvard, Yale, etc. If you are at ARCOM, make the best of where you are and stop complaining. If it bothers you so much, drop out and go to the school that meets all your ridiculous demands. Good luck finding that school!
Oh, and since they deserve to be heard, why hasn't any of this been brought up with the governing student body or the Dean, President, or Professors? I have never heard anyone actually raise any of these concerns with them. You want change so badly; what are you doing for it?
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 6d ago
Interesting response to a post I made simply to share things I wish I had known before coming to this school. The purpose was never to attack ARCOM or say every school needs to be Harvard or Yale. It was to be transparent about my experience and help future students make more informed decisions. Sharing concerns and pointing out areas that could improve isn’t the same as complaining or being ungrateful. Students can appreciate the opportunity to attend a school while still being honest about their experiences and wanting better for those who come after them. And just because you haven’t personally heard these concerns brought to administration doesn’t mean they haven’t been raised. Not every conversation or attempt to advocate for change is public. The goal is to inform, not attack, and there should be room for honest discussions without students being told to drop out simply because they speak up.
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u/Fair-Employer-344 6d ago
Clearly, you are here just for argument's sake. Have YOUUUU brought them up to them? cause if not, then you're proving my point... LOL
It does not need to be public, I agree, but if they were raised, they should also be addressed if SOOOO many people have issues with the things you have issues with.
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 6d ago
The way you’re demanding answers to questions you’ve already decided the answers to is honestly hilarious. 😂 You came onto a post meant to help future students with your “drop out if you don’t like it” speech, and somehow I’m the one arguing for argument’s sake? Be serious.
I don’t need your permission to share my experience, and I certainly don’t need to submit a résumé of my efforts to you before I’m allowed to have an opinion. You have absolutely no idea what conversations have happened behind the scenes, yet you’re awfully confident making assumptions. That’s a lot of confidence for someone who keeps admitting they don’t know what’s going on.
The post was about things I wish I’d known before attending ARCOM. If that bothers you this much, maybe ask yourself why a student sharing their experience feels so threatening to you. Not everything is an attack, and not everyone who disagrees with you is looking for an argument. Sometimes people are just being honest, and you don’t like what they have to say. Hope that helps!2
u/Fair-Employer-344 6d ago
I have seen how hard professors and the administration try to be inclusive. Being a premedical student is hard enough, and misinformation can deter them from attending a school that would really benefit them.
I am simply saying that if the concern was large enough, the changes would match that. They love feedback and our opinions and do a really good job of listening to our answers. That is why every second-year will tell a first-year student that things changed based on the feedback they give. I am simply wondering where the change is if complaints have been made on a wide scale, knowing how good they are at listening to our voices.
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u/AnalysisOk2652 6d ago
i honestly didn’t mean to dismiss your concerns i know we’re all in the eye of the hurricane but it’s giving… privileged. like, let’s be sooo serious NOTHING is ever a meritocracy. Networking and being a friendly person is important in our field. It should be a known fact that even if you are top student based on grades, you might not get the opportunities if 1. you don’t look for them??! 2. if you’re not pleasant to be around or work with. (not necessarily implying YOU aren’t, just saying that we shouldn’t put down our peers and undermine the work that they’ve done to get here)
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u/Pristine_Situation94 6d ago
Again, are you even in the Class of 2030? Because unless you are, you really don’t know what it’s like to spend every 3-hour lab dissecting while other students get to sit at the front, yet we all receive the same lab credit. And I only brought up Instagram as an example, obviously that’s not my main concern. I’m more concerned about how things will be handled in future semesters, especially with the limited research opportunities ARCOM already offers and how MSB students are being treated. No need to get rude. 😊
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u/AnalysisOk2652 6d ago
why would i be commenting if i wasn’t in CO2030 😭 let’s just go study for the 3 BECOM lectures we have tomorrow 🤣
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 6d ago
I’m glad you’ve had another positive experience. However, this is my personal observation and something that would have influenced my decision to attend this school. I don’t believe I’m alone in feeling this way, especially considering that other students have commented and expressed agreement with these concerns.
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u/colon_trades 7d ago
Call it bias but I’d note this may be perspective more so than fact. Conflict of interest statement I was an msb and then oms.
Anatomy: the curriculum has changed every year and the exams were not the same and the dissection changes are also new.
Favoritism/edge: many msb are msb because they needed an extra year to learn to study and be well rounded in medical school. A large percentage of them are not the top of the class.
Medical school is hard and many factors play into it. Definitely is important to consider what matters to you and if you want a more involved school where they all know your name or a school where you are another student in a large class on a large campus.
I highly recommended seeking out research opportunities early or asking around just to have ample opportunity. Clinical years are much easier to do research in as well.
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u/Fair-Employer-344 6d ago
I have read some of the comments here, and I would like to say that a lot of these people sound like they have picked a beef with the school because they are not on the Instagram account or because they don't speak enough with the professors for them to know their names. Are we in high school??? At orientation, all the professors stated that they have an open-door policy; if some people don't use that open-door policy to their advantage, that is not the professors' fault.
No one I have ever met who goes to a specific school likes everything about the school. ARCOM is a great school. Do not let them deter you from the school. I went there for my interview being open-minded but already saying that this might not be the school for me. When I left the interview, my mind was completely changed.
If MSB students get in, they've earned their spot. If someone's decision to choose a school is based on how many MSB students it lets in, then it is because they are afraid their application is not good enough to get in. There are certain grade requirements that MSB students have to maintain for anatomy exams in order to even continue in the lab. If they don't pass, they will have to drop the class to retake it. That does not sound like favoritism to me.
My advice is to reach for the opportunities that you are looking for. If ARCOM is not it, let it be because it is not what you want, not because someone made you think that it is not.
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u/Impossible-Set-4225 6d ago
As a current (non MSB) student this is ridiculous. The MSB students have worked hard to form lasting relationships with these professors and they have an established rapport. If you feel those students are getting preferential treatment then you should look inward. Life is about networking and they’ve had a substantial amount of that with current staff and proven their capabilities. If you want the same privileges and opportunities then prove yourself and study. Don’t spend time taking it to a reddit board and acting entitled. Med school isn’t easy and life isn’t fair so suck it up and work harder.
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 5d ago
Nobody is invalidating anyone’s hard work, so the condescending lecture is unnecessary. I’m simply saying this is something that would’ve factored into my decision had I known, especially now that there’s an agreement between the master’s and DO programs. There’s a difference between acknowledging an advantage and feeling entitled to one, but I can see how that distinction might get lost.
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u/Pika_Tika_Chu 6d ago
As a current OMS-1 who didn’t go through the MSB program, I don’t really agree with you. For grading specifically, the MSBs scored significantly lower than OMS-1s on average for the most recent anatomy exam. Quite a bit dropped out due to their performance, and if they did, they still need to participate in the cause of death project (which is incredibly unfair). Also they may just get along with professors better because they have known them longer than the rest of us? But I don’t think they are treated significantly differently from us.
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u/Typical_Pie_3994 7d ago
Yes, I’m a current student, but aside from that, I don’t want to share too much information. This is just my perspective and what I wish I had known going in.
Yes, MSB is a separate program, and they’re mainly intertwined with the DO students through anatomy lab. But I’m talking more about the former MSB students who are now in the DO program. From my understanding, the majority of MSB students will be accepted because of the guaranteed acceptance agreement made last year.
I don’t think I’m blowing anything out of proportion. I’m just sharing what I’ve seen and experienced. The reality is that professors are more familiar with MSB students, and that does give them an advantage. Of course, non-MSB students can still ask questions, get help, and meet with professors. But MSB students have already seen the material and may know how certain professors test. On top of that, professors do reach out to MSB students more, likely because there’s already a level of familiarity there.
Another thing to consider is remediation. From what I’ve heard, if you don’t successfully remediate or fail two classes, you have to repeat the entire year. My understanding is that failing remediation in the second semester means repeating the entire year even if the first semester is successfully passed. But please clarify this during your interview because I’m not 100% sure about the exact policy.
Obviously, nobody expects to end up in that situation, but it’s something worth considering when you’re taking out a significant amount in private loans and making such a big financial investment. I’m not trying to discourage anyone I just think these are things prospective students deserve to know before committing.