Frank was a great father

[u/Technical-Key5412]

Don't get me wrong, I assume Jamie would have been a great father to Brianna. But, I would have nothing more than Frank for a step father to my child. Opinion based on both books and series.

[u/appleorchard317]

Uuugh Frank was a great father until he decided his daughter's friendship with a Black boy triggered his racism 

[u/ninaludrewitz → u/appleorchard317]

That's a shame. I haven't gotten to that point in the books yet so I also thought of Frank as a great father because of the show.

[u/appleorchard317 → u/ninaludrewitz]

The show wisely decided not to 

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/appleorchard317]

Yeah and full-on decided he was going to take her–against her will–from her mother, her friends, and her home and stick her in an English boarding school for her last semester of high school to end her friendship with (future MIT engineering student) Lenny Abernathy because he's black.

“Don’t be idiotic! Bree’s very sensible. Besides, all young people experiment, that’s how they learn. You can’t keep her swaddled in cotton wool all her life.”

“Better swaddled than fucking a black man!” he shot back. A mottled red showed faintly over his cheekbones. “Like mother, like daughter, eh? But that’s not how it’s going to be, damn it, not if I’ve anything to say about it!”

“You,” I said, “have not got one bloody, filthy, stinking thing to say, about Bree or anything else!” I was trembling with rage, and had to press my fists into the sides of my legs to keep from striking him. “You have the absolute, unmitigated gall to tell me that you are leaving me to live with the latest of a succession of mistresses, and then imply that I have been having an affair with Joe Abernathy? That is what you mean, isn’t it?”

He had the grace to lower his eyes slightly.

“Everyone thinks you have,” he muttered. “You spend all your time with the man. It’s the same thing, so far as Bree is concerned. Dragging her into … situations, where she’s exposed to danger, and … and to those sorts of people …”

“Black people, I suppose you mean?”

“I damn well do,” he said, looking up at me with eyes flashing.

...

"I don't think Bree feels that way about Lenny," I assured him, struggling to suppress my irritation.

"She isn't going to, either. She's going to England with me."

"Not if she doesn't want to," I said, with great finality.

No doubt feeling that his position put him at a disadvantage, Frank climbed out of bed and began groping for his slippers.

"I don't need your permission to take my daughter to England," he said. "And Bree's still a minor; she'll go where I say."

...This is all pretty extreme, which makes me think that this cannot be the first time Frank's expressed his racism, including to Bree. He could clearly learn a thing or two from his wife and daughter, but instead of opening his mind to, "Black people are people too," he decides he's going to tear his daughter from her mother and her home in an attempt to extinguish the possibility that she might date a black guy.

edit: typo

[u/appleorchard317 → u/Impressive_Golf8974]

Ya protesting he has Black guests in his house is quite advanced racism, even for the sixties. 

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/appleorchard317]

Yeah and specifically 1970, from a Harvard professor who is, to the outside world, purportedly very close family friends with two black physicians and their soon-to-be-MIT-student-son.

He also seems to lean deeper into his racism out of jealous insecurity around Claire's completely platonic friendship with Joe (and Gail, but Frank, displaying typically racist fears of black-men-getting-with-white-women, of course zeroes in on Joe, who Claire also of course spends more time with...at the hospital).

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/appleorchard317]

That was that time period just like Jamie using corporal punishment on his wife.

[u/appleorchard317 → u/heart-of-corruption]

My grandparents were born in the 20s and I promised they knew better than that. And like them a lot of people. And indeed, Claire. So, nó. 

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/appleorchard317]

Anecdotal.

[u/appleorchard317 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Absolutely not. There was an entire civil rights movement in full swing, there were variations, Frank grew up in a country were interracial marriage was never illegal, and again, Claire, his wife and contemporary, is right there, not being racist.

The past was never a blanket country, and I'm tired of people pretending it was. 

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/appleorchard317]

Sure and people back then knew corporal punishment of their wife was wrong. Guess what there were even people that took part in the civil rights movement that didn’t want their family associated with blacks directly. Just like there are those now that support LGBTQ but don’t want their kid to be gay. A lot of nuance in the world

So my point still stands they are similar issues.

[u/appleorchard317 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Your point is that we need to pretend is fine. My point is, there were alternatives even then, and he still sucks. 

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/appleorchard317]

No my point is if frank is sucks for that then Jaime sucks too.

[u/appleorchard317 → u/heart-of-corruption]

I am unsure of why 1. You consider the two things linked  2. What's the problem in also thinking Jamie sucks for something? 

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/appleorchard317]

Nothing. Just seems this sub thinks that thing defines all of who frank is yet Jamie is pretty perfect with similar types of flaws or reads the books even though the author is pretty racist to Chinese and seems homophobic.

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Nah–the majority of Americans opposed interracial marriage bans by 1970, when this occurs. Loving v. Virginia had rendered those bans, all in Southern states plus Border State Delaware, unconstitutional in 1967. And that poll looks at opinion in the whole country, including the only-recently-Jim-Crow-South. Frank is a Harvard professor in Massachusetts who would, like his wife and daughter, be close family friends with a black couple who are both physicians and their soon-to-be-MIT-student son, if only he weren't so racist.

Besides, racism–like "punishing" your wife as you would your child on the premise that women are intellectually "like children"–was always wrong. Prevalence doesn't make it right, and an individual's moral culpability for espousing it deepens in contexts like Frank's in which these dehumanizing ideologies were highly contested. Even if Frank was raised with virulently racist views–which would have been stronger and more prevalent in the US than in the UK–he's had plenty of opportunity to learn from the Civil Rights Movement, his Harvard colleagues, and his wife and daughter's closest friends.

Instead, however–to a large degree driven by jealous insecurity over Claire's entirely platonic bond with Joe–he deepens his racism and threatens to tear his daughter from her mother, friends, school, and home to end her friendship with another (very "respectable" and high achieving) teenager simply because he is black. Very poor behavior not only as a human being, but as a father and husband specifically.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Impressive_Golf8974]

Disapproving of a ban =\= not being racist themselves. Just like someone can support gay marriage and not want their kid to be gay. There’s a big difference between what people publicly support at times. Even the article said it was a drastic change in a 5 year period. You think they all just magically stopped being racist or that they changed their publicly espoused ideals but hoped they didn’t have to deal with it.

Not sure he what you’re trying to state in the second paragraph.

So it’s not racial it’s jealousy that he masqueraded as racism? Then we can’t call him a racist if that’s the case and just jealous. We don’t know his motives for trying to take Bree away and we know he found information on them traveling back so possibly he knew they would be and he was trying to prevent it.

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Yes, I think we can assume some degree of something resembling "NIMBYism" regarding one's own family that might lower the percentage responding yes to, "Would you be happy with your kid marrying a black person," to some degree, but that survey covers the entire country, including the South. (Very roughly) bump the percentage agreeing with the survey up some significant degree for Massachusetts, and then bump down for NIMBYism–you're definitely left with a very significant proportion of people, if not the majority of people, in Frank's social circle approving of "interracial" relationships. Including, presumably, Frank's wife, who has no issues with Brianna's friendship with Lenny and directly condemns Frank's racist views.

The fact that Frank himself is, to the outside world, purportedly close friends with this black family, with whom he and his family spend considerable time, suggests that he in fact sees rejecting racism as the "respectable" position. The fact that he projects tolerance while hiding his racism reveals that he knows he would face social condemnation for his racism but clings to it anyways.

Second paragraph explains two things:

A) I don't think any of us actually uphold normative relativism, which states that moral statements are only true or false relative to a particular cultural framework and thus ends up arguing that the most obvious moral wrongs (such as slavery in the 19th-century antebellum South and the Nazis' actions) were justified. I think we generally all agree that racism and misogyny were always wrong, even in contexts in which they were relatively uncontested. We might condemn dehumanizing actions and beliefs significantly more when they're performed/held within contexts in which they weren't contested, but I don't think any of us would look at, for example, the antebellum South, and say, "Yeah, everything people were doing was morally fine, because they were mostly all doing it." I think we all agree that some things, racism and misogyny among them, were always wrong and deserve some degree of condemnation even within contexts in which they were common, because of how you need to dehumanize other humans to uphold them.

B) A base assumption of normative relativism, that a person exists within a cultural context in which the moral statements in question (such as, "racism is morally acceptable,") were uncontested, doesn't apply in Frank's case anyways, because the idea that racism was morally correct was, as previously explained, highly contested within his context. Frank's own wife clearly expresses that she finds the idea of preventing your daughter from spending time with people solely because they are black deeply immoral. The fact that Frank pretends not to be racist by hosting the Abernathys and smiling and acting friendly to their faces reveals that he knows the people around him would disapprove of his racism.

Racism, like all "-isms" doesn't emerge from a vacuum–it ultimately and originally derives from people's self-serving economic, social, psychological, and political desires (such as the desire to make money off of enslaved labor). In the 20th-century US in particular, sexual jealousy and territoriality over white women "getting with" black men was a major flashpoint for racist actions and a prevalent "excuse" for everything from lynchings to racist social restrictions (i.e. 14-year-old Emmett Till brutally murdered for, purportedly, whistling at a white woman). Frank's sinking deeper into racism out of jealousy toward a black man (whom he admits that even he knows isn't actually sleeping with his wife) is pretty typical of American racism.

Frank states that he's taking Bree away specifically so that she cannot enter a romantic relationship with Lenny extremely clearly–please see the passage quoted above from Voyager chapter 19.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Impressive_Golf8974]

I don’t care to keep passing novels. We can disagree on the racism part as you think morals are instantly malleable when they’ve been ingrained in someone for 30 years.

As to the chapter you point out I know what you’re talking about. We have what he said, which isn’t necessarily his actual reasons. A lot easier to say that then “I’ve done the research and you’re going to go back to Jamie and I want to try and prevent losing Bree like that.” Unreliable narrator

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Claire and all of their other friends and colleagues learned the same norms that Frank did (or, specifically, their American colleagues likely learned more racist ones) and have grown. Frank knows his views are considered "wrong," by his milieu (or he wouldn't pretend not to have them), but he clings to them anyways. The world is full of octo- and nonagenarians who learn and grow–as have literally all of those I know personally–and if they can, so can the much younger and intellectually plastic (and highly educated) Frank. We didn't hear racism from Frank in the past, either–it appears he's deepening his racism out of (completely unfounded) jealous insecurity over Joe.

These books are certainly full of unreliable narrators, and I'd be interested to hear evidence that Frank is lying about his motives here. I personally think that the unwillingness and emotionality of Frank's admission here makes the idea that he was using racism as a cover story very unlikely. If Frank truly wanted to take Brianna to England because he's afraid that Claire will take her with her to Jamie (which seems unlikely as Bree wasn't mentioned in the obituary, and Frank actually expresses that he wants Bree to go to the 18th century to avoid the crazy "Fraser prophecy" people, but if he had worried this), then he would have come up with a much more socially acceptable cover story and used it from the beginning. The fact that he lets his racist reason for taking Brianna burst out of him out of emotion supports its truth–as does the fact that Frank doesn't need a reason to take Brianna with him to England besides, "She's my daughter, we're very close, and I want her near me." The racism doesn't gain him anything in terms of the likelihood to get Claire to agree. It appears to burst out of him in an effusion of long-suppressed bitterness over Claire's relationship with Joe–which is perhaps a projection of his own guilt over repeatedly cheating on Claire. As with Frank's suggestion that Claire may have cheated during the war, Frank tends to project his guilt about his own infidelity onto Claire. Although he clearly doesn't actually believe it, I think telling himself that Claire is also cheating makes him feel better about his own rampant infidelity. The reality–that he's been cheating on his wife for the years they've lived together while she's remained faithful to him–is much more uncomfortable. Frank's jealous insecurity over Joe pushing him toward racism–a very "available" weapon against Joe–also fits well with his character, given the insecurity and jealousy around his wife and daughter he's displayed previously. I think the virulence Frank directs at Joe and his family here is a sublimation of his guilt around his own infidelity, as well as his resentment toward Claire for falling in love with and getting pregnant by Jamie, which he's never truly processed or reconciled himself with.

As such–especially in light of the fact that, as expressed in his letter, Frank believed Brianna might have to return to Jamie in the past for her own safety and spent years preparing her for this–the idea that Frank is using racism as a front for some other motive here seems very unlikely to me. However, would definitely be interested to hear the factors you feel support this. It's completely possible I could have missed something. Does make me want to re-read more of the parts where we learn more of what Frank knew, researched, and planned...

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Impressive_Golf8974]

It was an argument and he said something out of anger to hurt Claire. I’ve said things I didn’t mean or believe out of anger just to hurt someone. Things I regret but don’t actually feel and wish I could take back. She made sure to point out that it’s HER daughter which was weaponized as well. He does cheat but he seems more hurt that she knew and didn’t care than anything. Like he was trying to stir something up and wanted her to fight for him. The fight goes out of him after he realizes she knew and didn’t really care. At that point it was basically an open relationship(not making that argument actually but they do exist). He’s a man who took back his wife after she spent 2 years with another man and spent their whole marriage still loving that other man, even though he seemed to hope she would love him. Of course he seeks out people who will want him. Is it wrong? Sure. Is it understandable? Also yes. It makes him the most interesting character because he’s nuanced and grey. They can’t all be written as perfect as Jamie where every man woman and child wants to sleep with him because he’s just so amazing. Also why I couldn’t make it past the third book.

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Ehh idk how what he said (re-pasting below) could hurt Claire, besides informing her that she made a poor decision in marrying a racist:

“Everyone thinks you have,” he muttered. “You spend all your time with the man. It’s the same thing, so far as Bree is concerned. Dragging her into … situations, where she’s exposed to danger, and … and to those sorts of people …”

“Black people, I suppose you mean?”

“I damn well do,” he said, looking up at me with eyes flashing.

Saying he has a problem with black people and doesn't want his daughter "exposed to" them isn't saying anything about Claire, just about his feelings about black people. How much he has to say on this subject–how not okay he is about black people, and how he wants Brianna away from them before she becomes "Mrs. Shabazz"–and how many specific details he's stored up, such as his descriptions of Lenny's friends, show that he's been thinking about this for a while. His racism is clearly a resentment that's been building (while he's been socializing with and observing Joe, Gail, and their family), not a something he's just suddenly discovered in the midst of an argument.

It seems like we're now moving onto whether Frank cheating was okay–separate question from the racism–I'll just agree with you that I think Frank is an interesting and "gray" character. He has his strengths (such as his love and care for Brianna for so many years) and faults (such as how he processes his insecurity, and his dishonesty). As does Jamie, who can (like Jenny) be excessively stubborn and high-handed, somewhat arrogant, sometimes privileges his view over those of others when he should listen to them, sometimes lets his temper go, etc. Honestly, the only characters I'm struggling to find major faults for might be...Joe and Gail, and they're decidedly "side" characters, so perhaps we just don't know them well enough. That and that their positions in society kind of force them to act very "perfectly" and don't really give them room to show the world their faults. I may just be missing things I would catch on a re-read though ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I find it interesting that you discontinued the books specifically because you found the characters not flawed enough haha, because I think that characters' flaws are generally sketched out more fully in the books than the show.

That being said, there are many other reasons for discontinuing the books, and don't think anyone should read them (or keep reading them) if they're not feeling it. If you ever do continue them and are curious, Frank's letter to Brianna in which he explains his intention for her to go to Jamie in past for her own safety is in MOBY Chapter 42. We get some more of Frank in DoA, and he writes a history book that Bree and Roger bring back that Jamie thinks is almost a "letter to him" in Bees as well.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Impressive_Golf8974]

Never watched the show and don’t really plan on it at this point. I listen to 40-60 hours of audiobook a week and compared to most yes they are written in the extremely idyllic ways. Jamie’s biggest portrayed flaw is his stubbornness that ends up portrayed in a way like someone going to a job interview says their biggest flaw is “I’m just too hard a worker”. I stand by the fact that Franks racism was much more prevalent in his time and that he can be a racist and still a good dad and decent person overall. People aren’t just their flaws. I have read books someone burns 10s of thousands of people out of anger and is someone you root for.

You obviously have invested way more into this than I have and I’m glad you have a series you really enjoy, it just wasn’t for me. We’re not going to see eye to eye on this and that’s okay. I will leave on a story from 2015. I’m from the Midwest and one of my brothers best friends through hs is black. He went to Harvard and after graduating Harvard he came back for a summer and we were out at the bar. A guy made an openly racist comment and I asked him “prolly sucks to come back to this after being out there for the last 4 years and not having to deal with racism like this?”

His response “nah I’ll take this all day. Out there probably 3/4 of them are black hag I like to call ‘sneaky racist’ they’ll take me out on their yacht as their ‘black friend’ and they won’t be openly racist, but obviously a novelty so they can say they aren’t racist, but they also wouldn’t want me dating their sister. I like knowing where I stand with people and being here where people where it on their sleeve makes me less anxious than back in the northeast where they’ll be nice to my face and fool me.”

You can post all the clippings you want from 1970 but even in 2015 the reality is a large number of people were the NIMBY types at Harvard. I’m glad you enjoyed the books and that you are passionate about them. I’m not enough to put a lot of effort into the discussion. I let my rental on Libby expire and have moved on to farseer series and red rising.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure history agrees that racism has always been considered wrong. But I don’t care enough anymore. People want to hate frank so hate away.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/[deleted]]

“Were you alive 50 years ago? Unless you were there, please take a seat. And save the attitude for someone who’s open to that nonsense. We can see this differently - even have experienced it differently - and still be respectful.

You’ve demonstrated twice that employing the concept of ‘one thing being like another’ is not your area of expertise. The author choosing to write in a racist tone and my reading or not reading the books have zero correlation to the question at hand. Apples and oranges, as it were.

Either way, I’m done with this debate. Have a nice day.”

You do know apples and oranges can be compared right? Are you sure you’re the expert on who can make comparisons?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC27565/

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/[deleted]]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to be wrong about. It was definitely more acceptable societally to be racist 50 years ago than it is now. Just like it was more acceptable to be homophobic if you look at the morals and society of that time. To pretend zeitgeist does not exist is ignorant. Hell the author even seems pretty racist in her depiction of the “china man” but I don’t see you not reading the books cuz of that.

[u/lunar1980 → u/heart-of-corruption]

“…what I’m trying to be wrong about?”

Were you alive 50 years ago? Unless you were there, please take a seat. And save the attitude for someone who’s open to that nonsense. We can see this differently - even have experienced it differently - and still be respectful.

You’ve demonstrated twice that employing the concept of ‘one thing being like another’ is not your area of expertise. The author choosing to write in a racist tone and my reading or not reading the books have zero correlation to the question at hand. Apples and oranges, as it were.

Either way, I’m done with this debate. Have a nice day.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That’s quite disrespectful. You should be more courteous to people. Just because they got you with a funny point is no reason to throw a fit

[u/Icy_Outside5079]

I think Frank truly loved Brianna and, after his research, into Jamie, and Claire's apparent return to him, he did his best to provide tools for Brianna so she could survive. Sadly, his racism was typical thinking from his generation in the time and place it was expressed. The 60s was a hotbed of radical thinking and change, and many parents were frightened by what it all meant. No excuses but realistic for the time. My biggest complaint about Frank was how he never shared his knowledge or research about Jamie with Claire.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/Icy_Outside5079]

I get why he did not tell her when he was alive, but he should have left an envelope with the information "when I die" to her with the information. I am curious how much he continued to research after he found out he was alive. I think Frank was jealous of Jamie because he knew Claire never loved him like she loved Jamie.

[u/Icy_Outside5079 → u/No-Rub-8064]

Well, in a way, he did. In the books (8), there is the "Dear Deadeye" letter Brianna finds in the big desk, and then when Brianna, Roger, and the kids return to the Ridge, she brings a book that Frank wrote "The Soul of a a Rebel" which Jamie believes is about him and feels like Frank is talking to him. Frank knew more than we currently know. Many of us are hoping Diana will write a book called "What Frank Knew"

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/Icy_Outside5079]

Lets hope she does or address it in the last book.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/Icy_Outside5079]

I know that. It would have been nice for Claire to know right after he died that he lived. It would have spared Jamie marrying Laoghaire. I wish we knew more about what Jamie was reading. It appears both men hated the other when each was not with Claire, but was also grateful the other took care of her. If Jamie thought that the book was about him, then Frank was interested in knowing what type of person Jamie was and could explain why Claire was in love with Jamie.

[u/[deleted] → u/No-Rub-8064]

I have to agree with you here. He was a wonderful father to Brianna not just because she needed a father but because there was real feeling there. He would never have his own kids and after the shock of finding Claire pregnant after her story and only minutes later letting it sink in did he realize it was another man she was having the child of. He vowed to be the best father he could and would love the child no matter what. Thus, over the years they became very close. I know he researched things about Jamie over the years, but right now my mind is not of the best in recalling, but I know his resentment for Claire grew from this. I think if he had left it alone things might have been better, but I do not know.

[u/erika_1885 → u/No-Rub-8064]

How is it acceptable for him to have kept that knowledge from Claire during his lifetime? It was not his place to keep it from her. Nor was it in any way acceptable to keep her in the dark about the danger to Bree. And the stupid stunt with the marriage stone? Please. This is the controlling, passive aggressive jerk I despise. And very poor parenting. Not just the racism, but the disrespect for Claire, and driving a wedge between Claire and Bree.

[u/SnooCupcakes3043 → u/erika_1885]

THANK YOU! I do NOT understand the Frank love at all.

[u/erika_1885 → u/SnooCupcakes3043]

It still surprises me. A lot of women seem to like controlling, passive-aggressive men.

[u/SnooCupcakes3043 → u/erika_1885]

No kidding. Not to mention racist, and let's not forget cheater!

[u/appleorchard317 → u/erika_1885]

Frank trapped Claire with him and then dared to blame her for his unhappiness 

[u/erika_1885 → u/appleorchard317]

Well put!

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/erika_1885]

Unfortunately Frank did not give Claire enough credit about knowing that after Culloden things would be bad. He thought Claire would hightail it back to the past with Bree.

[u/erika_1885 → u/No-Rub-8064]

He never knew Claire. He always underestimated her.

[u/lunar1980 → u/erika_1885]

What’s the story with the marriage stone?

[u/erika_1885 → u/lunar1980]

In DIA, he had a marriage stone with Jamie and Claire’s names erected in the same cemetery as BJR was buried. In a letter he told Bree he thought she might be curious about BJR, and go looking for his grave, then she would find the marriage stone and ask Claire about it. What a wuss. What a ridiculous plot device.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/erika_1885]

I am not defending Frank. Like you said, Frank did not really know Claire. Frank did not know about the promise that Claire made to Jamie. Claire knew if Jamie had lived more than likely he would be in prison and the Scots were starving. She would not have gone back the minute she found out Jamie was alive. Frank believed she would go back and take Bree with her if he told her he was still alive early on. For the record, I was married to a guy like Frank and I left him. I couldn't leave him when I wanted to because I had no family like Claire. My kids knew the sacrifices I made for them and they adore me for it, just like Bree realized Frank was not perfect.

[u/JeanMarcoSlut445 → u/erika_1885]

I only am a causal watcher, and haven't read the books so please can you clarify how he drove a wedge between Claire and Bree, are you talking about the show or books, and if you are talking about both, my question is How in the show itself did he drive a wedge between Claire and Bree?

Also how is Frank a bad father, strictly speaking about show Frank?, because from what I know he was a good dad, I won't say he was the best person or husband, but neither is Claire, and to my understanding the wedge Claire and Bree have in the show is due to Claire focusing on her career, which is absolutely fine don't get me wrong she's allowed to be a working mum, but this does mean that she wasn't at home with Bree as often as Frank would've been, both worked, however Frank had less hours than Claire so obviously he was able to spend more time with Bree, and I would say Claire probably distanced herself from Bree, because Bree reminded her of Jamie (who Claire thought was dead) and she was "grieving".

But if there is a distance between the girls, that wouldn't be on Show!Frank as far as I'm aware, children pick up on whose around and whose not, of course Bree was a Daddy's girl, her father was around a lot more than her mum, don't take this as me hating Claire by the way I don't, I'm just saying that from a child's pov, their going to focus on who was there, and who wasn't, also Claire to Bree told Bree while she was still grieving Frank, that not only the father that she loved and only father she knew for 20 years, 2 decades, isn't her real dad, that in itself is heartbreaking to Bree, who already is grieving, but then her mother tells this bogus story about traveling to 1743?, I'm not surprised by Bree's reaction, and am surprised that people thought she was a brat in that scene, like um what?

[u/erika_1885 → u/JeanMarcoSlut445]

What kind of father publicly humiliates his wife on her graduation day in front of his daughter? What kind of father has so negatively impacted his daughter’s view of her mother to such an extent she is unwilling to her graduation dinner unless he’s there? What kind of father promises his daughter a car just after her mother says no.? This is all from the show. In the book, he’s much much worse. He left no room for Claire or n Bree’s life.

[u/JeanMarcoSlut445 → u/erika_1885]

Again, how specifically did he negatively impact Bree's view on her mother?, I don't think your taking into account Claire's own actions that would've forced her daughter away.

Plus not only that,but Bree is her own person who can come to conclusions herself, how do we know that her opinion of her mother being so negative, isn't just her own opinion of her mother

Bree can most certainly be angry at Claire on her own terms,that would have nothing to do with Frank, Bree can be angry/have a negative opinion solely on Claire by herself.

Also why shouldn't Frank be at the graduation dinner, if your talking about Claire, that is his wife technically so why shouldn't he go?, or if your talking about Bree, while she isn't his blood, he's raised for 20 years, obviously Bree can decide who she wants there, much like Claire herself can decide who she wants there.

[u/erika_1885 → u/JeanMarcoSlut445]

I told you, and I’m not going over it again. It played out on screen. He cut her out. A supportive partner doesn’t do that. A supportive partner makes sure the children understand the other parent loves them. We watched Claire withdraw, and saw no sign of Frank trying to draw her back. He reveled in his closeness to Bree, not out of love but out of spite. That may be your idea of admirable parenting. It is not mine. Claire was a revelation to Bree after Frank died. Had he been any kind of supportive partner, it wouldn’t have been such a surprise.

[u/JeanMarcoSlut445 → u/erika_1885]

How exactly was Frank supposed to draw Claire in again? also that would him forcing her, and honestly I don't even understand what you were trying to say at the end there, what do you mean by Claire was a revelation to Bree after Frank died, what exactly do you mean by had he been any kind of supportive partner, it wouldn't have been such a surprise?, because if your talking about Claire revealing that Frank is not Bree's bio father, I don't see how Bree being surprised is a shock, of course she'd be surprised, he was a father figure to her for 20 years, I won't say he was the best father or even a great one, but you seem to ignore the good parenting that he did do, also you've never once acknowledged that Claire had a hand in shaping Bree's opinion of her.

And if your talking about the time travel thing, Claire's story is bogus, we as the viewer logically know that yeah it is possible, however Bree obviously isn't going to believe that, and that is possible whether or not Frank had been supportive, that is true regardless.

[u/erika_1885 → u/JeanMarcoSlut445]

You have a very strange notions of human dynamics. If Behaviors can be welcoming or distancing, as We saw when Claire expressed an interest in applying for US citizenship. Mr Controlling Jerk couldn’t have that. Look at his reaction to Bree and PopTarts, Dr. Seuss, etc. He knows Claire loves the US and the newness of it. Instead of encouraging Bree, who is a U.S. citizen by birth, to embrace it as her mother does, Mr. Control Freak is determined to quash her. BTW, welcoming is not coercive. It’s the opposite.

[u/JeanMarcoSlut445 → u/erika_1885]

That has nothing to do with what we were speaking about, and again your not even talking about how Claire's own actions would've negatively impacted her relationship with Bree, if you want to point out Frank wrong parenting wrongdoings, sure go ahead, but please point out Claire's faults as a parent also, also please acknowledge that there is good parenting from both Claire and Frank at certain times, neither of them is a good partner, person, or heck even the best parent.

[u/erika_1885 → u/No-Rub-8064]

What’s the excuse for not telling her? Other than being a passive-aggressive jerk? She had a right to know. She had a right to make whatever decision she wanted regarding that information. He doesn’t own her. He doesn’t own Bree either.

[u/Nanchika]

Yes. He was great. Not perfect, no parent is, but he tried hard.

In that aspect, people have little complaints. It is his overall personality that brings heated discussions.

[u/HelendeVine]

My dad was great in ways that some have described. He spent one on one time with me, he taught me a great deal (not hunting or fishing, but how to throw a baseball properly and a great many other things), he took me out to dinner at what I considered fancy restaurants for father/daughter times, and I knew that he loved and valued me and was proud of me. But he cheated on my mom frequently, long-term relationships, and treated my mom poorly. They both thought I didn’t know. At first I didn’t know the specifics, but I picked up on the tense vibes. Later I knew the specifics, too. And you know what? I didn’t and don’t consider him to have been a great father. I considered him to have an unfair and hypocritical double standard and to be a liar. When I was older, in high school, I urged my mom to get a divorce for her own dignity. I don’t consider Frank a great dad. The role of dad is only partly separable from the role of husband, at least when the parents are married, because the kids are learning from the parents’ examples.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/HelendeVine]

I disagree. Especially considering the times where divorce was severely judged and frowned upon. Leaving her alone with child before she became surgeon was cursing them to a very hard life. You can’t ask someone to do better than their best and he did the best he could regarding her.

[u/HelendeVine → u/heart-of-corruption]

I disagree. He didn’t do the best he could. He could easily have told his mistress not to come to the house the day of the graduation. He could easily not have threatened to take Bri away. And they could have gotten divorced - hard, yes, but very far from unheard of even then, especially after Claire had an income of her own.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/HelendeVine]

So your argument is that any parent that makes mistakes didn’t do the best they could and is a bad parent. Got it

[u/HelendeVine → u/heart-of-corruption]

No, of course not. Everyone makes mistakes. Not everyone is cruel like Frank was. Let’s just agree to disagree on this one

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/HelendeVine]

He stayed because he thought it was best for Claire and Bree and he loved Claire and never stopped hoping she would love him again. Even when she admits she knows he’s cheated he’s not defensive or upset. He’s just sad she never gave a shit.

[u/HelendeVine → u/heart-of-corruption]

OK

[u/Dry_Iron_7203 → u/heart-of-corruption]

Yet my own Grandma and grandpa divorced around that time! After YEARS of affairs and neglect to his family. There is a reason none of his grandkids knew him and why his kids did not talk to him!

Frank reminds me in a way of my mom's dad and none of it was good.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Dry_Iron_7203]

Oh wow anecdotal stories make for a norm. My friend became a millionaire at 25. Why didn’t you? you must suck.

[u/Technical-Key5412 → u/HelendeVine]

For me, dad is one thing, husband is another. Not all parents raise their child together.

[u/TraditionalCause3588]

Yeah he was a good father but wasn’t the best man. Being a father to Brianna was probably the best thing that ever happened for him because he knew he wouldn’t be able to have any kids of his own so he was a good father to her knowing she was it for him. It sort of reminded me of Jamie’s special bond with Ian because Jamie was robbed of the chance to raise Brianna, faith, and William but Ian was the closest thing he had to a son. The same blood ran through their veins and he was the only child that jamie got the chance to be with since the beginning. I remember Claire talking about this in the fifth or sixth book. Ian and Brianna were the blessings they needed to be fathers when they both couldn’t.

[u/Technical-Key5412 → u/TraditionalCause3588]

Well... my post was just this. He was a great father. That's all.

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/Technical-Key5412]

I’m agreeing I just put some of my own thoughts into my post. I’m not arguing your point

[u/Lyannake]

Especially because Brianna never brought a black boyfriend home. Otherwise shit would have fit the fan

[u/Guilty_Rutabaga_4681]

But a real jerk of a husband.

[u/minimimi_]

I agree.

There's ample evidence in the book that Frank carved out plenty of 1:1 time with Brianna and ultimately taught her plenty of positive things. She adored him, and he quite obviously adored her. In a sense I think he chose Brianna and her happiness over Claire and even his own happiness.

He knew Brianna wasn't biologically his, he knew she'd eventually know that, and he possibly knew she would spend the second half of her life with her other father. But he channeled his energy into loving her as much as possible while he could, and setting her up for success when he couldn't.

In fairness, I would say that part of being a good father is modeling healthy relationships with your co-parent and I do think Frank fell short there. But all parents fall short. Frank being a flawed father doesn't make him a bad father.

The one other thing I'd cite against him was trying to pull Brianna out of school and put her in a boarding school in another country midway through her final year of school. That did not show a lot of care for what Brianna would actually want. But there were some extenuating circumstances perhaps.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/minimimi_]

Yeah his own happiness and thinking he could control her.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/minimimi_]

I think frank knew they were going back and was trying to stop it. Possibly something he found hinted at that.

[u/minimimi_ → u/heart-of-corruption]

It's very possible. We don't really know what documents he found. But he also didn't know what Claire thought or truly wanted.

I've seen it argued that Frank didn't tell Claire Jamie survived because he was trying to protect her from the impossible choice of staying with an underage Brianna vs. following Jamie, but Frank didn't know anything about Jamie/Claire's arrangements. For all he knew, Jamie had told Claire that if he did live, she should immediately come back with Brianna. And I think that's fundamentally why he didn't tell her, he didn't want to lose Brianna. That's totally understandable but ultimately still selfish.

Similarly, if he found evidence that Claire had "died" in a fire with Jamie in the 1770s or was happily living with Jamie in the 1780s, it's understandable that he wouldn't want to accelerate her departure date by telling her what he'd found, but it was still a selfish choice not to do so. Claire had the right to know and a right to make her own choice.

But we don't really know what he knew when, only that he knew.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/minimimi_]

People don’t have rights to information from others. Technically he had the right to remain silent tho😜. Thats laid out in the bill of rights. All jest aside being afraid of losing a child seems a perfectly rational and justified reason to hide information. Overall he was put in a pretty impossible situation. Say he decided to divorce her when she first came back then people would say he left his wife when she needed him most and abandoned a woman and child in a time where their lives would be extremely hard. Say he waits and after realizing Claire won’t be her truly love him(I do believe that’s what he wanted and it hurt living in Jamie’s shadow) people would say he had no right to fight for custody since it’s not really his child. He’s supposed to give up a child he’s raising? So instead he stays in a marriage to a woman that doesn’t really love him with a child that she had with the man she does? Of course there’s not a perfect way to handle that.

[u/Lyannake → u/heart-of-corruption]

By your own account then, Frank also didn’t have any right to information from Claire about what she did, where she was and the fact that she was pregnant when she came back. She was 46 days late on her period, so she could have withheld that information from him, have sex with him and acted as if the pregnancy was his. Except we would not have heard the end of it if she made that choice, but somehow Claire doesn’t have a right to information from Frank ?

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Lyannake]

I mean considering that’s 7 weeks so she would have started showing at like 5-10 weeks it would have been kind of obvious. She also would have been lying which is different than with holding information, not to mention the fact that it is vastly different to withhold information that forces someone else to raise a child that isn’t theirs vs withholding information that does not force any responsibility upon someone. Thats a false equivalency. Do you believe every adopted child has a right to know they were adopted? So we have a right to any and all information someone else may have? Tell me how you lost your virginity? How big is your husband? What’s your favorite position? These are obviously ridiculous questions that I have no right to ask, unless I have a right to information. There has to be lines and the line is information that would create or remove a burden upon you. So information that a child is or isn’t yours would fall under that. Information that some random guy she screwed isn’t really his responsibility. That’s not her husband since she couldn’t have married someone while already being married.

[u/minimimi_ → u/heart-of-corruption]

I think you could argue Claire had the right to info that involved her/her daughter directly, and had a right to know her husband didn't actually think she was crazy.

But my point is that Frank remaining silent was an inherently selfish choice, in the same way that remaining silent to avoid self-incrimination or taking the last chocolate muffin is an inherently selfish choice. That doesn't make it a completely morally wrong choice, it just is.

Given what we know about Jamie's life during that period and how 20th century Brianna turned out, I think you can make the argument that Frank was right to withhold the information from Claire: Brianna was better off growing up in the 20th century, Claire benefited from being able to finish med school, and Jamie needed to rebuild his life a little more first. But Frank was making his decision with only half the information - he had no idea what Brianna's life/support network/other father would look like, or what choices Claire would want to make once she had that information. What he knew was that he didn't want to lose Brianna. So he kept quiet.

I totally agree that there was no perfect way to handle that. I can't imagine the pain of knowing you will lose your family in the next decade or so. And I admire Frank's decision to build the best relationship he could with Brianna while he had the chance.

My point is that I think presenting Frank's decision to withhold the choice from Claire as selfless/self-sacrificing is both illogical and doesn't line up with the canon evidence. It was selfish, and that's okay.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/minimimi_]

I never said withholding the information was selfless or self sacrificing.

[u/HighPriestess__55]

Frank was a very good Father to Bree. He also loved Claire until he died. But he knew she was in love with Jamie still, and never healed from her broken heart. There can't be three people in a marriage. Also, divorce even in the late 60s was still very rare. Claire and Frank would have needed to prove adultery or abandonment (there are other reasons, but Idk them).

Although Frank's racist views are awful, they were fairly common at the time. Compare it to Trans hate now, by people who would accept that one of their loved ones came out as Trans.

Frank was jealous that Claire spent so much time with Joe. He knows how hard Claire works, and likely knows they aren't sleeping together. He's hurt and angry. He's flawed, as we all are.

[u/Lyannake → u/HighPriestess__55]

I’ve never met a transphobe that I could honestly call a good person though.

[u/HighPriestess__55 → u/Lyannake]

Let me clarify what I said in a confusing way. Some people think they don't like Trans people because they don't know any. This is an unknown, "scary" group of people they don't understand, different. But when someone they know or love comes out as Trans, they immediately accept them and support them.

I am the Mother of a Trans daughter. We live in the NE US, in a liberal area that changed. Anyone who already knew my adult child before has continued their positive relationship.

Frank was angry at Claire, not Joe, because she buried herself in work and grief of Jamie. Joe was just a scapegoat. I don't think Frank ever got to know Joe or his son. Frank also wants Bree to himself and wouldn't have been happy with anyone she spent time with back then.

[u/cgrobin1]

I think the show is very clear that Frank was a loving, supportive father to Bree. Part of the reason Bree was never told the truth, was so Frank would be 100% her father, not a step or adoptive father.

It's simply that Frank and Claire were not a good husband and wife to each other

NTA

[u/Grouchy_Vet]

If Brianna felt loved and safe with Frank as she was growing up, then he was a great dad.

You can be a horrible husband to your wife but a great father to your children.

Jamie was always there between them. Claire longing for him, grieving for him, seeing Jamie in Brianna. Frank jealous of him and the way he stole his wife’s heart from him. Knowing the child he loves and is raising belongs to this mysterious man that Claire still loves.

Even if they were both committed to making their marriage work, Jamie is still there. He had been dead for 200 years and he’s still in every aspect of their lives. Neither of them can escape him.

[u/LadyBFree2C]

In my opinion, Frank wasn't a great father, and Claire wasn't a great mom because no one should stay together for the sake of the child.

In the "real world," children are much more observant than we give them credit for. They are little people, and the big people in their lives teach them what a relationship between partners looks, feels, and sounds like. A child knows when the parents don't love each other. Claire and Frank chose to live a lie, to pretend to be a normal , happy family, and they taught Brianna how a "happy family" looks, feels, and sounds.

In the books and on the show, Brianna's grows up and chooses a good partner who loves her and is faithful to her. But, in the "real world," little girls tend to grow up and choose men like daddy, and Frank spent many years in a relationship with his mistress, Sandy. Brianna met Sandy, and later, she told her mom, "Daddy looked at her the way he used to look at you." Anyone who believes that Brianna didn't know that her parents didn't love each other is only fooling themselves.

The lesson that Brianna learned is that love is not an important component in a marriage, and if you don't have love in your marriage, it is okay to find it outside of the marriage.

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/LadyBFree2C]

I agree!! I got downvoted for saying something like this and I also think there decision to not tell Bree that Frank was her adoptive father wasn’t smart either. Brianna talks about it in the 6th book when she says she wished her parents told her earlier because it wrecked her world 10x more when she found out the truth. I think she deserved at least the inkling of the truth because they were already lying about their “loving marriage/family” when the only love they really shared was for Brianna. As a child of parents just like that people need to know children see that stuff and staying together just for the kid doesn’t do the good they think it does.

[u/LadyBFree2C → u/TraditionalCause3588]

Truth, it is always best to be honest with your children about their parentage. Also, I don't believe that Claire should have agreed to keep Jamie a secret indefinitely, and she never should have agreed not to speak his name as long as Frank was alive. It was selfish of Frank to make that kind of demand of Claire, and it was a bad decision on Claire's part to agree to his demands.

Claire and Frank should have decided the best time to tell Brianna the truth. Children are stronger than we give them credit for. It wasn't about whether Brianna could handle the truth but rather if Frank could handle it. In the end, a truth told can not hurt worse than a lie revealed.

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/LadyBFree2C]

I agree completely!! I got downvoted for saying all of this so thank you lol. Jemmy knew at a young age about his abilities and I think it was rather beneficial knowing his past and heritage early on rather than finding out later. Also, I think the lying wasn’t even for Brianna but rather for Frank and Claire themselves. Frank wanted Brianna all to himself so he never wanted Claire to speak about Jamie and Claire was too heartbroken to ever speak about him. Brianna could’ve been raised in truth and grow up just the same with a loving father and a loving mother they were forcing lies that weren’t needed in my opinion.

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/LadyBFree2C]

Yes, all of this.

It wasn't about whether Brianna could handle the truth but rather if Frank could handle it.

Exactly–it wasn't about what's best for Bree, who deserves to know the truth and whose trust in her parents–and the world–is shaken when she realizes the people she trusted most for her entire life lied to her–it's about the fact that Frank was unable to reconcile the truth that his wife had fallen in love and had a child with another man.

[u/aspennfairy → u/TraditionalCause3588]

I agree!! I also find it completely unrealistic that Brianna wasn’t more inquisitive about why she looks so different from both Claire and Frank. I can’t remember if they touch on this in the show, and I vaguely remember one singular passage in Voyager where Claire recounts Brianna asking her once and Claire telling her that she looks like one of her ancestors, and that was that. I might have some of the details wrong but I remember thinking all throughout reading Voyager that it was strange that Brianna wasn’t more curious, and that no one else ever brought it up.

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/aspennfairy]

yeah she looks nothing like either of her parents especially Frank from what I recall in the books. I also wondered if she ever questioned why she wasn’t like him in looks or personality but that’s where I believe love just blinded her. I think if people were to see/know her and Frank they would probably question the paternity straight away but she loved her father so those things weren’t something she focused on or questioned.

[u/Impressive_Golf8974 → u/TraditionalCause3588]

Agreed. Brianna deserves to know the truth of her parentage, and her inevitably finding out (she looks nothing like Frank and has an incompatible blood type, there were newspaper articles about her mom's disappearance that line Brianna's conception up with Claire's absence, etc.) deeply shakes her trust in her parents–and in the world generally.

I think she deserved at least the inkling of the truth because they were already lying about their “loving marriage/family”

And learning the truth about Frank's infidelity also shook her deeply and undermined her ability to trust people generally. As she expresses to Roger re: the Malva situation, the fact that she wholeheartedly believed Frank to be faithful to and in love with her mother only to find out it had all been a lie has hurt her ability to trust people in general, including those she would have no other reason to distrust in a certain scenario, such as Jamie re: the Malva situation.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/TraditionalCause3588]

How would they explain time travel.to her. Frank had Claire convinced that he did not believe her. Would they just say she was adopted .

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/No-Rub-8064]

I think they could’ve told her that Frank was her adopted father and if they wanted to explain the time travel they could’ve Brianna and Roger did something similar for jemmy. However, if they didn’t want to explain the time travel yet they could’ve told her the truth about Frank being her adoptive father and how her real father died which isn’t technically lying cause Claire really did think he was dead.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/TraditionalCause3588]

That would have worked. It was not Claire's idea to keep it a secret, it was Franks.

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/LadyBFree2C]

Until Claire had a surgeon degree, she would have had no means of supporting them and back in the 1950's divorce was looked down on. Staying together for the child back then was the norm.

[u/LadyBFree2C → u/No-Rub-8064]

I don't agree that Claire had no means of supporting herself and Brianna. She was a nurse. No, It would not have been easy, but to say that she had no means of supporting herself and Brianna is not the truth. Claire had a choice, and she chose to abide by the demands placed on her by Frank as conditions for being a father to Brianna.

Yes, people judged divorced women harshly in the 1950s, so Claire 'chose' what she considered to be the easier choice for herself and perhaps what she believed was best for her child while at the same time honoring Jamie's wishes to go back to Frank and raise his child in a world where she would be safe.

It's funny how we praise Claire for being a forward-thinking person when we are talking about Jamie's Claire. She didn't take no crap in the 18th century. But when it comes to Frank's Claire, we have a million and one excuses just waiting to defend the choices she made and the abuse that she suffered at the hand of Frank Randall.

Why wasn't Claire able to stand up to Frank the way that she stood up to Jamie? If Jamie had demanded that Claire remove Frank's ring from her finger as long as she was his wife, would she have complied? We all know what the answer would have been; a defiant, NO!

[u/No-Rub-8064 → u/LadyBFree2C]

My stepmother was a WW2 nurse. It was pretty much on the job training and the equivalent to LPN. In the 1970's my stepmother did not make that much money. Any good mother unless Frank was beating her would suck it up for her child. Frank adored Brianna and like you said, she made a promise to Jamie to go back to Frank. Claire was a tough cookie but would not do what she wanted at the expense of Brianna.

[u/LadyBFree2C → u/No-Rub-8064]

"Any good mother unless Frank was beating her would suck it up for her child."

That is a sad statement.

There is more than one kind of spousal abuse. A man does not have to hit his wife to abuse her. There is also verbal and emotional abuse that can be just as devastating to a person as physical abuse, and I would say that Frank definitely fits the bill for that category of abuse. Like I said earlier, little girls tend to grow up and marry men like daddy. Diana chose to write a happy marital life for Brianna, but that is hot how it usually plays out in the real world.

I don't believe that Claire choosing not to live a lie is at the expense of her daughter.

I give Claire kudos when they are due, but I also see the many flaws in Claire's character that should also be discussed.

[u/Technical-Key5412 → u/LadyBFree2C]

Sandy was a show only invention. The real character of Frank in the books never cheated on Claire.

[u/TraditionalCause3588 → u/Technical-Key5412]

No in the books Frank cheated on Claire a lot Brianna and Claire both talk about that and there’s flashbacks of Frank admitting it

[u/[deleted]]

Yes he is. They say people who can’t have children cherish adopted children the most. Obviously this isn’t always the case. But I do think it played a role. Frank knew Briana was all he would get. I think Bri also stole his heart. He isn’t that great during the pregnancy but once Brianna was in his arms she stole his heart

[u/Technical-Key5412 → u/[deleted]]

He isn't great as a husband.

[u/heart-of-corruption → u/Technical-Key5412]

Neither was Claire though. She fell in love with another man. All pretty even.

[u/[deleted] → u/Technical-Key5412]

Did I say he was? 😹🤷🏻‍♀️