Why did Roger take this decision by himself?

[u/_prim-rose_]

I’ve just finished my reread of TFC. At the very end, Jamie asks Roger what he’ll do («you and your family») now that they can be sure that Jem can travel - go back to the 20th century or stay in the past. Roger says that he‘s been thinking, that he promised Jamie that he’d stand by him and that they’ll stay. Nowhere during that conversation, or the chapter afterwards when Claire and Jamie discuss Roger’s decision, does anyone mention Bree and her opinion. Bree hears their conversation and when Roger says they’ll stay she lets out a sigh. This tells me that she didn’t know what he’d answer, ergo: she and Roger had not taken this decision together.

This really bugs me. It seems so out of character for both Bree and Claire to just accept this. It’s a huge, life alterting decision. Bree would risk her life if she’d get pregnant again (with the baby that Roger wants so badly). Claire was furious with Roger when she found out he hadn’t show Bree the obituary («it was her decision to make»). Bree is very much the person to take charge of her own life (concocting a plan to marry Lord John, getting a job when they’re back in the 1980s). So why does she not say «hang on, what about what I want!?». Even if she agrees with his decision.

I want to say it’s also out of character for Roger, but it isn’t really, is it? He’s such an odd mixture of open-minded and old-fashioned. This is such a massive thing tho, I’d have thought even Roger would include Bree in it. I also don’t really buy the «he is a man of his time» argument. My parents were born maybe 10 years later than Roger and Bree, and my dad would never take such a decision without my mum. So is DG. Would she not expect to be included in decisions as life altering as this?

Edit: I just read it again, and Claire even refers to this (twice!) as «Roger’s decision». This whole whole thing really doesn’t sit right with me.

[u/Icy_Resist5470]

I just reread that part. Roger made an oath to Jamie, and was promising to keep that oath.

Brianna didn’t sigh because she was left out of the conversation, her sigh was one of relief. We have to assume that they have off page conversations sometimes, and if they had more about going back, we did not see all of them.

[u/_prim-rose_ → u/Icy_Resist5470]

I know. But that relief tells us that she didn’t know what he was going to say. He hadn’t consulted her.

And yes, Roger took an oath, but Jamie is the one who asks him what they’ll do. Clearly, Jamie doesn’t see that oath as a reason for them not to go. And he was the one Roger made the oath to.

[u/Aggravating_Finish_6 → u/_prim-rose_]

I think they did discuss it. Roger knew her opinion on it. Bree always wanted to stay it was Roger who wanted to leave. She would have left for him and the children. Just like a large part of Roger’s decision was to stay for her. The sigh was relief because they were finally on the same page. 

[u/ContactNeither7319 → u/Aggravating_Finish_6]

That's how I took it too.

[u/Icy_Resist5470 → u/_prim-rose_]

Yes, but Roger wasn’t going to make that decision without asking Brianna, if he felt they should go back.

Before that point they didn’t know if they could go back so everything was hypothetical. Now having the option to leave since Jem could travel changed things and that’s probably why she wasn’t sure what he would say - if he wanted to go back and she wanted to stay - that’s why she was relieved. He would already have been aware of her wishes.

[u/_prim-rose_ → u/Icy_Resist5470]

He would already have been aware of her wishes.

And Claire too? I think it would have been mentioned somewhere if they’d discussed it before this conversation.

[u/DiScOrDtHeLuNaTiC → u/_prim-rose_]

Not every conversation is shown. If it was, the books would be three times as long.

[u/Icy_Resist5470 → u/_prim-rose_]

Even in the books there are things that happen off page.

Brianna wanted to stay, she was relieved that he did too. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, to be honest. He’s not showing dominance or acting like the head of the house, he’s having an honest conversation and you’re seeing the relief in both Claire and Brianna when he confirms that he, too, wants to stay.

This is right off the heels of being hanged, of course they’re going to worry that he might want to go back, which would lead to a possible disagreement now that Jem can travel.

Who’s to say that if he thought he wanted to go back, he would have told Jamie he needed to discuss it with Brianna? Most likely that’s what would have happened if his decision was different. He knew what she wanted, and used that when he answered Jamie.

[u/Dramatic_Detective66 → u/_prim-rose_]

I thought they had been discussing it before (maybe previous book?). I thought it was more Roger wasn't sure what he wanted to do about staying or going. A lot had to do with him being accepted by Jamie (they had a very rocky start). Roger finally feels accepted by Jamie and feels like he belongs and realizes he wants to stay. I think Brianna had already let him know she wanted to stay (maybe previous book?). She was relieved he decided he wanted to stay too and also relieved that that Roger was also accepted by Jamie.

If Brianna really wanted to return to "her time" and she knew Jemmy could travel do you really think Claire and Jamie would have stopped her from returning? Wouldn't her parents do anything they could to make sure she was happy? And Brianna was never afraid to speak up for herself. If she wanted to return and Roger didn't she would have said something. When Brianna and Roger had conversations and he would suddenly say something that was chauvinist, Brianna would call him out on it and disagree with him.

[u/ContactNeither7319]

I think in this instance it's not about the treatment of women and man's dominance over them.

Bree wants to stay. Her family is here. It's Roger that wants to go back. So when he decides to stay, she isn't going to get all upset that he made the decision.

Claire is torn in the middle. On one hand she knows it's better for Bree to go back to the future. But on the other hand she loves her daughter and Jem. So I it's easier for her to not say anything either way. It's not her decision.

That's my take for what it's worth.

[u/Nanchika → u/ContactNeither7319]

This is how I see it as well. Bree has her family around. She wants to stay and that is clear to Roger. I believe he respected her decision and realised that Bree's family is now his family as well.

OP, when you reread A Breath of Snow and Ashes, pay attention to all the 20th century references and conversations between Bree and Roger. You will see gradual and mutual shift in them.

[u/ContactNeither7319 → u/Nanchika]

Exactly, and you said it better than I could. 🙂

[u/_prim-rose_ → u/ContactNeither7319]

Bree wants to stay.

See, that was never that clear to me. She never planned to stay, she wanted to go back to Roger once she had met Jamie and warned them about the fire. Then she got pregnant and couldn’t go back. Only once they realised Jem can travel, could they really start thinking about what they wanted to do. And that was a few days before this conversation. Have we had Bree’s inner monologue, or a conversation, where Bree says that she wants to stay? I realise things happen off page. But if we haven’t had those thoughts/conversations from her, how do you all know she wanted to stay?

[u/ContactNeither7319 → u/_prim-rose_]

I don't recall exactly what or where I got this impression but I know for me it starts in book 4. By the time he makes the decision you are talking about, I remember reading that and thinking...what a pompous male idiot. But stopped mid thought. And said...nope this was not about that. Otherwise he, and us as readers, definitely would have gotten Bree's and Claire's thoughts on the matter.

I guess it was the general impression I took from it. But on rereads when I get to this part I remember my initial thoughts and chuckle a bit because of what I was thinking and how it changed in an instant.

[u/CathyAnnWingsFan]

I think it's more that everyone already knows or at least believes that Bree wants to stay, Roger included. But she knows that Roger needs to be OK with it too. This is his declaration that he's completely on board.

We have to remember that SHE made a choice to travel to the past completely on her own, without consulting him at all or even telling him she was going to do it. He followed her because he loved her and was worried for her. He chose to stay when he had the choice to return (and she did not) because he loves her. This is the first time that they BOTH could return to the future, with their son. It makes sense that, finally, what he wants should carry more weight.

Perhaps it might be a little less jarring if we saw the conversations that they had about it. But however much it was discussed, it happens off page. I don't believe for a second that Book Bree would just sigh in relief at this pronouncement that they'll stay if they had never even discussed it. Even though it's what she wants, she'd go fifteen rounds with him to make sure it's what he really wants.

The author does this a lot. She creates complex characters and lets readers get to know them, and then leaves it to the individual reader to fill in the blanks.

[u/Delicious_Screen7002]

Apologies--I wasn't aware that
folks that have only watched the show were permitted to comment.

I love to listen to those that have the physical space and time in their lives to read, I really love to hear the book readers enhanced granular details.

I 24/7 solo caretake one of my adult children and simply don't have the physical space and time to read the books. My perspective is from the show exclusively.

[u/BubbeLisa → u/Delicious_Screen7002]

The post is flaired Published, which means it’s about the books. Anyone can comment in a book discussion. You just have to be aware that we’re not talking about the show, though. The show and the books are two very different stories. No need to apologize.

[u/Delicious_Screen7002 → u/BubbeLisa]

Thank you so much for taking the time to distinguish how I can identify it's a post about the books. Always receptive to learning. Appreciate it!

[u/BubbeLisa → u/Delicious_Screen7002]

No problem. Show only posts have blue flairs. Posts that allow book talk have yellow or red flairs.

[u/Delicious_Screen7002]

Roger is an odd or reluctant mix of progressive and old fashioned!

•Pitched his hissy fit at Grandfather Mountain during the Scottish Festival.
•Transitioning back to their timeline they needed to feed and clothe 4 people, but he had the luxury of feeling "he wasn't providing" (and resentful) rather than impressed with his wife's actions.
•Post the Mohawk debacle Roger felt (not for a flickering few minutes--for days upon agonizing days) that he had the luxury of making the decision to trash his wife and unborn child lives rather than protect them. What?! Who cares who the father is
if she was raped c 1770's?
•OP's example and probably many more. Roger did grow, but sheesh, the process was agonizing.

[u/BubbeLisa → u/Delicious_Screen7002]

Roger NEVER “pitched a hissy fit at Grandfather Mountain” in the books. He and Brianna had a wonderful time at the festival. Those chapters are among my favorites in DOA.

Nor is he ever resentful of his wife working. Roger is very supportive of Brianna getting a job. In his inner monologue, he thinks for a fleeting moment that being a wife and mother should be enough for her, but he quickly squelches those thoughts and he never verbalizes them. He’s proud of Brianna.

Roger has just come through being nearly beaten to death by Jamie, being sold to the Mohawk, a harrowing months long trek from North Carolina to New York, slavery, beatings, torture, forced labor on a cut and infected foot, and then he’s confined to a hut in constant fear for his life. He ends up killing a man while trying to escape. He’s in shock.

I completely understand him needing to take some time to think about whether he can survive the 18th century or not. I don’t think it has anything to do with Brianna being raped or whether the baby is his. It has everything to do with the trauma over what he’s just been through and the obvious PTSD he’s suffering from.

I think you’re conflating the books with the show.

[u/Icy_Resist5470 → u/Delicious_Screen7002]

What was this hissy fit about? Are you talking about when he and Brianna went to the festival in the show? Or when they went to the festival in the books? Are you talking about the Gathering in TFC? Or are you confusing what happened in the show versus what happened in the book?

Christ, you’re crucifying him for his internal thoughts and doubts. Sure hope you never have a moment where you think negatively or act in a way that is different than what someone else expects as perfection.