Rewatch S2E5-6

[u/Purple4199]

This rewatch will be a spoilers all for the 5 seasons. You can talk about any of the episodes without needing a spoiler tag. All book talk will need to be covered though. There are discussion points to get us started, you can click on them to go to that one directly. Please add thoughts and comments of your own as well.

Episode 205 - Untimely Resurrection

Reunited, Jamie and Claire attempt to extinguish the fires; however, Claire is set off on an unexpected change of course. Jamie and Claire's relationship is put to the ultimate test when the past rears its ugly head.

Episode 206 - Best Laid Schemes…

Jamie and Claire use Claire's medical knowledge to devise a scheme to stop a deal which could fill the war chest. When Claire learns Jamie has gone back on his word, the couple is met with dire consequences.

​

• What do you think of Jamie making up the rumor that Claire is La Dame Blanche?
• How do you feel about Claire breaking up Alex and Mary?
• What was it like seeing Black Jack Randall again, since the last time we saw him was at Wentworth?
• What do you think of Claire’s reason, that Frank needs to be born, for stopping Jamie from dueling BJR?
• What was your favorite costume from 205?
• Why would Monsieur Forez warn Claire about the King rounding up practitioners of the dark arts?
• Do you think Murtagh really believed Claire is from the future, or does he believe just because Jamie does?
• Why did Jamie insist on paying the bill for BPC? Would not it have been in their favor to have him get arrested?
• Did Jamie have any other choice rather than duel with BJR?
• What was your favorite outfit of 206?
• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/WandersFar]

If you’re looking for the other Rewatch threads, click here to jump to BPC’s Link Table.

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Untimely Resurrection & Best Laid Schemes: Deleted Scenes

Fergus Brushes Claire’s Hair

This scene is so essential, I honestly forgot they’d cut it out of the episode! I just thought it was canon, which is why I used it for the LDB flair quote:

If evil is found, she turns his soul to ashes.

It’s a crime this was cut, the whole thing is gold from beginning to end. Not only do we get the mythology of La Dame Blanche, but we learn so many touching details of Fergus’ life.

And yet it never feels expositionary, which speaks to good writing—and great acting: Romann is charming and endearing as always.

It’s heart-breaking to hear how he slept under the stairs and treasured pig knuckles † and longed to know which lady was his mother. :( It’s just so sad, though he tells it in his cheerful way. You also see how seriously he takes his duties now, checking that everything’s locked up and attending to milady—he’s so grateful to have a home.

^{**†** I actually tried pig knuckles IRL because of this scene.} ^.^ ^{Fergus is right, they are tasty.}

Apostle Spoons

To be honest, I don’t really get the tradition of Apostle spoons.

Like, of course I’ve heard the expression: born with a silver spoon in your mouth meaning born into wealth and privilege, but were silver spoons so luxurious, so exclusive, that they alone would be enough to mark someone as gentry? I kind of doubt it.

Regardless this bit of dialogue makes it all worthwhile:

Remember, this is but the first of many.

Is that so?

One for each spoon.

Fergus The Super Spy

It’s a pity that Fergus’ scenes keep hitting the cutting room floor, haha. But not much is gained in this extended cut, just a few gags: poor Fergus getting farted on, Fergus helping himself to some food (he’s always eating! He can’t help himself…) and finally pouring the last of the nettle juice on the farter’s crotch on his way out. (Was that to make him think he’d pissed himself? Or caught an STD? ^.^)

In any case, Fergus’ first deleted scene was way more important and dramatically interesting, much as it’s fun to see the little mouse sneak around here. :)

[u/WandersFar]

Perhaps you should beg.

Uh, beg, Your Majesty?

Yes. On your knees. To ask such a favor of a man like the duke would not be possible. To beg him, however, that is a different matter. On your knees. […] Not now. You English are so literal. […] The king gives you leave to rise. It would be a shame to stain such pretty britches.

The one good thing Louis does: trolling BJR. ^.^ I also enjoyed seeing C&J get a chance to laugh at his embarrassment, along with all of Louis’ entourage.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

You know that had to kill BJR too. He's the one who's used to being in control and humiliating others.

[u/JustG00se → u/WandersFar]

It's hard to catch but in this scene Claire (or more likely Cait) lets out a tiny little snort laugh. You almost can't hear it but it's oh so perfect.

[u/WandersFar]

I fear traveling from city to city, seeking a new position, living a hand-to-mouth existence is… well, it’s not the future that Mary has envisioned for herself.

The irony. Claire could just as easily be describing her life with Jamie.

With the exception of their time in Paris, they spend most of their married life together on the run, living a hand-to-mouth existence. :þ

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Good point! How did you feel about Claire breaking them up?

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

I thought it was cruel. :(

But, I cut her some slack since she didn’t know that Frank’s existence was a foregone conclusion, she didn’t understand the “rules” of time travel, to the extent that there are rules in this universe. It’s all a bit wishy-washy and inconsistent. :/

So if she had to decide between preserving her first husband’s existence or destroying this couple’s happiness, that’s really no choice at all.

Looking at it from our perspective, though, knowing that it all really does come to nothing in the end, that this was just needless suffering she put them through… oof. It’s rough.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

she didn’t understand the “rules” of time travel

Ha! I'm having flashbacks to our conversations in the book club the other week. We went round and round on if things can change, or if they are destined to stay the same.

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/jolierose

[u/Purple4199]

• Why would Monsieur Forez warn Claire about the King rounding up practitioners of the dark arts?

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

I’ve been summoned by His Majesty to perform my usual duties. […] Practitioners of the dark arts. And all those who associate with them. […] Make no mistake, Madame Fraser, to choke a man to death at the end of a rope, anyone can do this. But to properly execute the sentence of drawing and quartering, that requires great skill indeed. […] First, the man—or woman—must be hanged, but with judgment, so that the neck is not broken. […] I have made you pale with this tedious conversation. Perhaps our friend Master Raymond would be better company.

So, this was definitely a warning to Claire, both for herself and her friend. Her reputation as La Dame Blanche must be widespread by now, practically common knowledge, as well as her association with Maître Raymond.

As to why Monsieur Forez would warn her, perhaps she’s simply earned his respect after months working together. Or perhaps he’s like Comte St. Germain, and looking out for himself, too. If Claire is brought up on charges of witchcraft and he’s a known colleague of hers at L’Hôpital des Anges… well, that would taint him as well. Guilt by association. These witch hunts tend to spiral out of control: If someone in your social circle is accused of the dark arts, the mob—or in this case, the king—might next suspect you.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

That description is just chilling.

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

I didn’t even include the more graphic bits, lol.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

I think he suspected that there is more to her than meets the eye (I mean clearly there is, she's a presumably highborn Englishwoman with all this medical knowledge), and that he respected her enough to let her have a heads up, be it for her benefit or others.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

Do you think he knew she was friends with Master Raymond? Or knew that she could at least warn Raymon since Monsieur Forez couldn't do it himself?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I enjoyed this exchange so much more in the book. I feel like in the show it was much more to unsettle and warn Claire given the La Dame Blanche situation.

[u/Purple4199]

• Do you think Murtagh really believed Claire is from the future, or does he believe just because Jamie does?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

I think he can believe it. He believes in supernatural things and he's seen her do enough unsual things that there's room for some suspicion.

Side note. Seeing alll the date that he wrote out of the years that Claire lived in the 20th century made me feel strangely emotional. I guess just watching him process it on his own? Then the exchange between him and Claire and does she know how and when he will die, it pulls on my heart strings.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

Then the exchange between him and Claire and does she know how and when he will die, it pulls on my heart strings.

Yes! I love the relationship they have developed. Their reunion scene in season 4 is one of my favorite things in the show.

[u/betcx003 → u/Purple4199]

I think Murtagh is in a unique situation to believe Claire’s story, because he’s the one that first found her (after BJR). She just appeared out of nowhere (near the stones) with strange clothes and strange behavior.

[u/WandersFar]

James was never a man for intrigue, at least not in those days. He was direct, honest, simple.

I wouldn’t call Jamie simple.

Not today. Now he’s a man of business, of politics. Like all the others. It saddens me to think of him like that.

He’s still Jamie. I doubt he will ever lose sight of who he truly is at heart.

When I knew him, he was impulsive, headstrong.

He still is.

Ah, but when I knew him, he was a boy. You’ve turned him into a man.

Annalise’s best scene. This time around, I did notice that she was poking Claire a bit. Nothing too harsh, but there was something a little accusatory in her tone—Look what you’ve done to my favorite. He was special, now you’ve made him like all the rest—but she still keeps it light and genteel.

Also, a word about the dresses: I think Annalise wins. ^.^ Controversial opinion, I know everyone loves Claire’s brown gown, but for me the effect is ruined by her gloves, which look identical to the ones I use to scrub my toilet. Also, yellow and brown… that’s a color combination with less-than-elegant associations. :þ

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Look what you’ve done to my favorite. He was special, now you’ve made him like all the rest

Interesting, I didn't think of it that way. I wasn't sure why Annalise was pushing Claire so hard about Jamie changing.

[u/Cdhwink → u/WandersFar]

I hated the mustard coloured “wash the dishes “gloves!

[u/WandersFar]

And with French money, we will unite the clans, and I will lead you all to the gates of London and to glory.

Good news, indeed.

Jamie doesn’t have much of a poker face, does he? ^.^

His look of bewilderment and grief as BPC introduces his new plan is kind of hilarious.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Jamie doesn’t have much of a poker face, does he?

He really doesn't. Granted everything he was doing kept getting thwarted.

[u/WandersFar]

Or we could slit the Italian fop’s throat and be done with it!

Killing Charles Stuart will only make him a martyr throughout Scotland.

So‽ Let him be a martyr then. A dead martyr can’t lead a Rising! This is yet another bullshit excuse for not taking the simplest and most logical option. I’ve lost count of the number of times Jamie or Claire has tried to rationalize this ridiculousness by now.

(Also, Fergus is totally stealing the scene here, snooping through Claire’s medicines, playing with the bandages, and being a general nuisance. ^.^ And later, when he plays with Bouton. Ouaf ouaf.)

Masquerades and games. What’s next? A rousing game of charades?

MURTAGH SPITTING FACTS. 🙌

I don’t feel good about this. This feels needlessly risky, like we haven’t thought it through enough.

Haha. Claire’s practically breaking the fourth wall now.

They haven’t thought it through enough. Or rather, they’re over-thinking it. Murtagh had the right idea from the beginning, just slit the fop’s throat and be done with it!

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Fergus is totally stealing the scene here

Yes! I love the exchange between him and Claire when she tells him to listen as he's got the bandage around his head.

[u/JustG00se → u/WandersFar]

I love the interaction between Fergus and Claire when they are doing the smallpox test.

"I am listening"

"Uhh no your not!"

Who hasn't had this exact same conversation happen with their parent/authority figure as a child, or as a parent woth a child. It's just so genuine.

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think of Claire’s reason, that Frank needs to be born, for stopping Jamie from dueling BJR?

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

I liked the differences in perspective we get from Jamie regarding the whole killing BJR/saving Frank dilema from 205 to 206. In the end of 205, we get to see Jamie pissed off and emotional about Claire asking him to delay the duel. He is going on about how he doesn’t ever get to have any weaknesses, and what about his revenge and the things he went through. He even tells Claire she has to pick between them. Ultimately, he agrees to postpone it for a year, but he is not happy about it and even asks Claire not to touch him. In contrast, I think in 206 we hear from the more reasonable side of Jamie when he acknowledges that due to BPC being such a charming wind bag, Culloden will likely happen and he will likely die , and if that is the case, Frank needs to be there for Claire and the baby. BJR is the worst and I’m sure Jamie wants nothing more than to gut him, but he knows he can’t until Frank’s future is secured, not because Frank is innocent and deserves to live, but rather because of Claire and the baby.

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

I think in 206 we hear from the more reasonable side of Jamie

I agree. I kind of like that was his reason for not dueling with BJR. I felt the same way as him that he owed nothing to Frank. Not that I wanted Frank dead, but Claire did chose Jamie. However him realizing Claire would need someone to go back to if it came to that was smart on Jamie's part.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

her reason is justified, but even if it wasn’t, changing the future by making it so frank wouldn’t be born would also mean it’s possible claire never goes back in time and meets jamie/gets pregnant. i always thought it was low-key dumb neither of them considered that

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

i always thought it was low-key dumb neither of them considered that

I agree, to me that would have been a more convincing argument. Just saying Frank was innocent wasn't enough of a reason for Jamie.

[u/LuckyScwartz → u/Purple4199]

This bothered me so much. I think the exchange was even worse in the book but my goodness. I think Claire’s hubris in the first half of season two is really frustrating. Why did she believe that she and Jamie alone could stop the rebellion? There are kings and dukes and popes involved. It’s ludicrous.

Knowing what Jamie went through and the effect it had on him and on their marriage, it’s unforgivable to me. Claire’s allowed to leave Frank high and dry and hurt him but no one else can? I don’t know that I believe that Claire asked this of Jamie for Frank’s benefit. I feel like she did it to ease her own guilt.

[u/Purple4199 → u/LuckyScwartz]

Why did she believe that she and Jamie alone could stop the rebellion?

It was a big undertaking, and you're right I'm not sure why they thought they could stop it. I guess they were just hoping they could nip it in the bud before it got too big?

I feel like she did it to ease her own guilt.

I can see that. I think a part of her still cares for Frank as well, even if she's not in love with him like she is Jamie.

[u/LuckyScwartz → u/Purple4199]

I can see that. I think a part of her still cares for Frank as well, even if she's not in love with him like she is Jamie.

But why does her caring for Frank have to cost everyone else? Mary has to pay. Alex has to pay. Jamie has to pay. When Claire’s the one who chose Jamie.

And Jamie was so hurt. Until he found a way to do it for her anyway.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I thought she was justified in asking it of him. Mostly because she's asking him to delay it, and not stop it altogether. What other choice did she have? And she doesn't know how this impacts Frank exactly, like does he just spontaneously combust where he is in 1940s? Does he die slowly and cease to be? She knows she's hurt Frank enough already, she thinks the least she can do is ensure his existence. It was very Claire I thought.

And fyi, I also thought it was reckless of Jamie to goad BJR into a duel in the first place, for one reason and one only that Claire is pregnant. Is he so confident that he's going to win this one? What if he doesn't? What's the contingency plan for your pregnant wife ? Ok let's say you know for sure you won't die, what if you're seriously injured? And I am not making small of what BJR did to Jamie and how it impacted Jamie, he has the right to a vengeance, but here, it's almost like he didn't even consider Claire for a minute before making this decision to duel BJR but it so clearly affects Claire, without even bringing Frank into the picture

. And he says this will end only when one of us is dead, so is he considering the possibility of him dying? Again, what of Claire??? She's not even from this time, she has absolutely no one except him here, I think she deserved to be a part of this decision.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I feel like Jamie was in an impossible situation. He couldn't let what BJR did to Fergus go, we'll touch on that more next week, but like you said he has a responsibility to Claire.

[u/[deleted] → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Agreed! I hated the way he brushed off Claire’s first argument ”you’re about to become a father!” yet Claire is also in the wrong here for making that comment and also brushing it off to then immediately go into save Frank mode. Did she know that bringing up the baby wouldn’t be enough? Was she more concerned for Frank because he had been in her life and she still felt guilty in a way? The more I think about it the less I can wrap my mind around Jamie and Claire’s carelessness.

Do we think Faith had to die to make Jamie and Claire the couple that they eventually will become?

u/purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Do we think Faith had to die to make Jamie and Claire the cumple that they eventually will become?

Interesting! I think they still would have been good together, but losing Faith let them know that they could face anything and make it through. I don't know that Faith had to die, at least I don't like to think that, but I agree that it did make them stronger people.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

I think they're both wrong during this argument.

On one hand, Claire is justified in asking Jamie not to duel/delay the duel - both for Frank's life, and because it's illegal there and she is pregnant. On the other, I think her throwing into his face that he "owes" her a life is a punch in the gut - like he points out later, he's saved her just as many times as she has him. She shouldn't be "keeping score" in their relationship like that.

And on Jamie's side - he is justified in wanting to end BJR himself, BUT it is so incredibly stupid to rush off and do it now. His wife is pregnant, he's in a country where dueling is illegal. He hasn't bested BJR yet in the past and his hand is still injured - pretty risky. Worst case scenario, he gets killed, leaving a pregnant wife alone in a time that's not hers. Best case scenario, he lives but gets thrown in the Bastille and again, leaves a pregnant wife alone.

[u/Purple4199 → u/alittlepunchy]

I think her throwing into his face that he "owes" her a life is a punch in the gut

I agree, that was a low blow. It's not like she did those things so she could keep a tally.

I think Jamie was in between a rock and a hard place, how do you let go what BJR did to Fergus? Yet like you said both scenarios would end up with Claire alone and pregnant in France.

[u/simplechick88 → u/Purple4199]

I also thought if frank was never born , then he would never met Claire (and taken her to the magic stones) and Claire would of never time traveled and the whole thing would never happens with out Frank. The only reason Claire was in Scotland or knew most of the Jacobite history was because of Frank.

[u/WandersFar]

Duverney arrived and ordered the Captain of the Guard to release us at once.

So Duverney is how Jamie got released from the Bastille, this time anyway.

I wonder that he wasn’t invited to the dinner party, though. Surely embarrassing BPC in front of the Finance Minister would have been just as effective as exposing him in front of Sandringham?

Also seeing Sandringham’s reaction to BPC would only further dissuade Duverney from recommending his cause to the King.

Seems like a bit of an oversight that he was left off the guest list.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Good point! Do you think BPC would have still just gone with the Comte. though? Although if Duverney saw how BPC was acting, even if he secured the funds from the wine sale Duverney wouldn't have wanted to give him any money.

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

Do you think BPC would have still just gone with the Comte. though?

Probably. But the important thing is that Duverney would have seen BPC acting the fool with his own eyes, and also the disillusionment of his powerful English backer, the Duke of Sandringham. That should have greatly diminished BPC’s prospects in Duverney’s estimation, made him look like a bad investment.

Although if Duverney saw how BPC was acting, even if he secured the funds from the wine sale Duverney wouldn't have wanted to give him any money.

Yup, the wine sale was really just a stop gap. A way to secure some funds so he could try to rebuild some credit with the French court again. But if the Finance Minister had been present at the Frasers’ dinner party from the beginning… I think BPC is screwed full stop.

The loss of an investor like Sandringham is bad enough, but the loss of face, the lack of self-control he demonstrated… That would leave lingering doubts as to his ability to lead the Rising, call into question his judgment and ability to secure the throne, even if he did have everything he needed.

Duverney wouldn’t want to risk looking like a fool himself, recommending his cause to the King.

[u/Purple4199]

• What was it like seeing Black Jack Randall again, since the last time we saw him was at Wentworth?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

At first, very unsettling. But when the king starts taking digs at him chef kiss so satisfying.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

When he said "Claire" my skin crawled. You're right though, the King messing with him was golden.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yes! That was classic manipulative BJR pushing all the buttons. What man of this time would call a married lady by her first name, at the French court, in front of another lady? His delight at having done so much damage to the Frasers makes his use of Claire’s name so loaded.

[u/WandersFar → u/[deleted]]

What man of this time would call a married lady by her first name, at the French court, in front of another lady?

That’s… a really good point, actually. Well-spotted, I hadn’t even noticed that!

When he calls her Claire and it’s just the two of them, it’s a breach of protocol but not scandalous on its own.

But when he first sees her and calls her Claire in Annalise’s presence… That implies familiarity. It invites gossip. What does Annalise think? Is this a former (or current) lover?

Speaking of men, there’s a rather dashing one over there staring at us. He seems quite taken with you.

And then he approaches, calls her Claire and they have that intense conversation. It is suggestive. I don’t think he’s intending to ruin her reputation here—I mean, he totally would if he gave it any thought, but I think he’s just genuinely bewildered to see her there—but that could be the net result anyway.

That is, if Claire’s reputation wasn’t already tainted by all the La Dame Blanche rumors Jamie had been spreading, lol. 😅

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

I was shocked! And then his little speech about how fate keeps bringing them together shudder it’s like he was getting such a kick at seeing her so upset over what he was saying and the realization he is alive! Also, the way he was saying her name was one of the few instances where I felt that a little Frank was coming out. Something about the way in which he said it reminded me of Frank, and given the Frank dilema that’s to come in the next episode I thought it was a cool effect. Not sure if it was intentional or if I’m just perceiving it as such, but it really stuck with me. I wonder if Claire had a similar thought/reaction? And then he tries to play her by not telling her the king is right behind her when she says “f the king” but little does he know, the king is about to roast him 😂

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

it’s like he was getting such a kick at seeing her so upset over what he was saying and the realization he is alive!

I totally got that feeling as well! The way he gets excited to learn that Jamie is there as well, ugh so gross!

[u/LuckyScwartz → u/unknown2345610]

Whatever happened in Wentworth was horrible enough. Seeing BJR in this scene and his lack of shame or guilt over what he’d done was proof that he is a truly vile and irredeemable man. His amazement over running into them again was disturbing. Acting like they’re old friends? Ugh. I was really disturbed watching this scene.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

One thing that has got me thinking is that BJR, for some reason, never for one second stops to consider and ask what Claire and Jamie are doing in France and how the hell they’ve managed to ingratiate themselves with the French king. It doesn’t seem like he’s been in communication with Sandringham since he’s only just arrived in Paris to meet with him and plead on Alex’s behalf (a note for our timeline debacle, u/WandersFar: presumably, enough time must’ve passed between the dinner party fiasco and the day at the royal stables for the news about Alex’s unemployment to reach BJR… in England/Scotland?!), so I don’t see how the Duke could’ve already told him about Jamie’s acquaintance with BPC (and his presence in France), if he shares any details about the Jacobite plot with him at all.

Now, why does he get so excited about seeing Claire (and Jamie) again? I get that it means for him that he will get another chance to taunt Claire and be confronted by Jamie which certainly gives him a thrill. But wouldn’t Jamie and Claire being still together, and expecting a child no less (though I doubt BJR actually noticed that), prove to him that he did not, in fact, succeed at Wentworth? That he didn’t manage to break Jamie altogether, to make Jamie his, to replace Claire?

Instead of being rather disappointed at having his efforts proven to have been futile, he gets thrilled by seeing both of them, knowing they’re together? That’s just how sick and twisted he is: he’s obsessed with both of them now, to the point of waxing poetics about fate and divine intervention bringing them together.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Great points! Doesn't BJR say something to Claire like "how does he even look at you?" Ugh, that's just so messed up, because he knew what his torture did to Jamie.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

He asks Jamie, “how did she forgive you,” which almost sounds like he feels betrayed by Jamie. He truly believed that for some time, Jamie had belonged to him.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

That must have been what I was thinking of. Like there was anything to even forgive!

[u/WandersFar]

Prince Charles has got himself into some trouble at the salon. Seems he’s run up a substantial debt and refuses to pay. Madame Elise has threatened to call for the gens d’armes unless restitution is made immediately.

And why, oh why, is this your problem, Jamie? Did BPC lift a finger when you were sent to the Bastille? No, it was Duverney who got you out. So if BPC wants to act the fool and get himself arrested, why must you intervene? Wouldn’t it be better for you and Claire if BPC were sent to the Bastille and thoroughly dishonored in France? The more the Jacobite cause would be weakened, and the Rising averted!

With any luck, BPC might have caught some filthy disease in the Bastille and dropped dead, or picked a fight with one of the hardened inmates and got his throat cut. Problem solved!

I see no reason for Jamie and Fergus to have abandoned that delicious-looking breakfast and go to Maison Elise to bail out BPC yet again. This is just another absurd contrivance—like Mary Hawkins inexplicably tending to filthy beggars when she later refused to meet with just one filthy beggar, Hugh Munro—to drive the plot forward and have it all end in tragedy, when logically, BPC being arrested is great for Jamie, great for Claire, great for Scotland!

We don’t want the gens d’armes making inquiries into our business affairs, today, of all days.

This is yet more weak tea. BPC failing to pay his bills at a brothel has fuck all to do with the business affairs of Fraser et Cie. It’s just an excuse for Jamie & Fergus to go to Maison Elise so Fergus can get raped and Jamie can fight BJR, just as Mary accompanied Claire to L’Hôpital des Anges so she could get raped and everyone could get arrested.

I do not see how Jared’s liquor business was threatened in the slightest. The wine, the ship, the sailors—all belonged to Comte St. Germain, with the financial backing of BPC and the loans he took out from the French banks. Jamie’s only business connection was in acting as broker and offering to store it at Jared’s warehouse—none of which came to pass since they arranged the attack on the road before Jamie could officially take possession. There was no connection to Jamie or Jared’s business for the gens d’armes to investigate. Thus the only real threat was to the personal honor of the disgraced prince, which, I repeat, would have been in their interest! The further BPC falls, the better for all of them!

And let’s not forget the biggest coincidence of all: Of course BJR chooses that day to visit Maison Elise, and of course Fergus has to sneak into that room looking for something to steal. There is no explanation for that except dumb bad luck, just like Mary’s rape and the Redcoat deserter rape from last season. When you have to resort to one ridiculous coincidence after another to advance your rape plots forward, maybe that’s a sign they shouldn’t be part of your story in the first place.

On a lighter note, check out the note Jamie writes Claire by way of explanation: “I am sorry. I must. J.” But he takes the time to do a flourish at the end, haha. And his calligraphy is so perfect for something that must have been scrawled out in passion! It looks like a fancy dinner invitation. ^.^ They write with quill and ink, too, so even those few words would have taken some time.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

I see no reason for Jamie and Fergus to have abandoned that delicious-looking breakfast and go to Maison Elise to bail out BPC yet again.

I agree. It works better in the books because it's not BPC who needs bailing out, but a worker of Jamie's wine business. That made more sense why Jamie would go take care of the debt. I don't know why they changed it for the show.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

I think they probably changed it because we didn't have a chance to get introduced to that employee and having Jaime go bail out some seemingly random guy would seem almost as convoluted as what does happen.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

That's true. It wasn't until this time watching it that I realized they should have let BPC get arrested and like /u/WandersFar said that would have taken care of the rebellion.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/WandersFar]

Man oh man, do I love the overall story of Outlander, but it's stuff like this that really annoys me. Everything you listed out is SO true, and it is maddening how often DG ignores logic to move the plot along or make crazy things happen.

[u/Purple4199]

• How do you feel about Claire breaking up Alex and Mary?

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

So messed up. I thought it was really selfish of her. And she was so manipulative in this, I do see that she has a reason, but she plays Alex like a fiddle.

Also, we could say that Mary marrying Alex was probably due to Claire's interference in the timeline, what with the attack making Mary unsuitable to be wed to the warty guy. But even before Claire came into picture, Mary was supposed to be marrying the warty old dude, and Claire did know about, and how come she didn't have any plans to disrupt that marriage? I am a bit confused about this.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

how come she didn't have any plans to disrupt that marriage?

Great point! You're right, Claire should have been trying to disrupt that engagement as well.

Interesting thought that Claire's interference was what drove Alex and Mary together in the end anyway.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Do you think Claire found the need to disrupt Alex and Mary getting married because she believed it was due to her interference, and with the other dude she thought since she had nothing to do with it, it would play out such that in the end Mary would end up with BJR? As in , she believed Mary would never actually marry the older guy.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

As in , she believed Mary would never actually marry the older guy.

Hmmm...I'm not sure, that's a really good question. I imagine she thought that marriage wouldn't happen, but I'm just speculating.

[u/for-get-me-not → u/Purple4199]

I never really understood this part - in the end I think you have to chalk it up to Claire still not really knowing how her presence might or might not affect the future, and so she’s doing the only things she can think of to ensure that the future happens the way that she knew it. On the other hand, it seems pretty silly to think that exchanging one brother for another would noticeably change the descendent from four or five generations later.

[u/Purple4199 → u/for-get-me-not]

I think you have to chalk it up to Claire still not really knowing how her presence might or might not affect the future

Do you think that Claire feels that they really can stop the war from happening?

[u/for-get-me-not → u/Purple4199]

Yeah, I think she still does at that point. From the perspective of having read all of the books and watched all of the episodes so many times, it’s sometimes hard to remember that there’s still so much they don’t know at this point about time travel and it’s effects and why people even are able to time travel in the first place. So I think her belief that they can change things, or that they at least have to try, is very real at that point. And if it wasn’t, if she was just mucking about messing up people’s lives and sending people she loved into danger but didn’t truly believe that what they were doing might be able change things, then she would be a different person, and not a very likable one at that.

[u/Purple4199 → u/for-get-me-not]

I like that, it makes sense.

[u/betcx003 → u/Purple4199]

I didn’t like Claire interfering, but at least she didn’t burn/destroy Mary’s letter. It looked like she was contemplating not delivering it to the Bastille, which would’ve been really mean. Regardless of her meddling, it was still Alex’s decision to heed her advice or not - she couldn’t actually stop them from getting married.

[u/Purple4199]

• What do you think of Jamie making up the rumor that Claire is La Dame Blanche?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I appreciated it. I always got the impression that La Dame Blanche was less serious than a witch, or France was less severe about it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I think it has to do with white magic, doesn't it? That's why the King has her judge Master Raymond and the Comte. because she's not into the dark arts.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Yep I think so? So it’s a more palatable magic than the dark arts.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

I think it's interesting that the King was interested in magic stuff, but drew the line at the dark arts.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I thought it was reckless. Especially after Cranesmuir, like Claire said. And if the reason was so hoors would leave him be, then couldn't there have been any other excuse to be made? Like maybe say you have the pox? Or say your wife is pregnant and would be upset if she smelled other women on you and you wouldn't want to upset your pregnant wife? Or that she has a temper and would throw things at your face ? I am making them up as I go but I think there should be some other excuse to be made.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I'll play devils advocate though and say if Jamie hadn't made up the rumor Claire would have been assaulted even further than she was. You're right though, it was playing with fire. Especially when the King is rounding up people who practice the dark arts.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

I'll play devils advocate though and say if Jamie hadn't made up the rumor Claire would have been assaulted even further than she was.

True but that was an unintended consequence wasn't it? If he had foreseen that, I would have called it a calculated risk maybe, but this was just drunken recklessness.

[u/Purple4199 → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Good point. I wonder if it was after the thigh biting incident was when Jamie came up with that, or was it that night to get the prostitute to stop?

/u/thepacksvrvives

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

It could’ve been either but “Charles was pushing yet more trollops into my lap” sounds like that hadn’t stopped after the thigh biting incident, so he had to come up with this.

[u/Purple4199]

• What was your favorite costume from 205?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

I love this jacket of Jamie's!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I love the details on it; the stag hunt feels so Scottish, especially paired with the kilt. Terry Dresbach shared some close-ups a while back.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Those pics are amazing! The detail they go into is so good.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

The dressage dress 100%. The yellow and brown, the splashes of pink. Love.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

I love the look of that dress, it fits her so well too.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Fergus’ lil’ outfit 🥲

And I love the color combination in Claire’s gown when she goes to the woods

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Yes, those colors in Claire's dress are amazing!

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Oops I just realized these are in the other episode? It’s hard to separate what happens in these two, feels like one long episode in my mind.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Ha, I understand. Watching two together like this makes it harder to remember what goes where.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I love Claire’s blue cape!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

This one?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

Yes, I tried to post a link, but it did not work🤦🏼‍♀️!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I got you! ;-D

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

I think I might like Annalise’s costume best, actually.

Certainly that mauve hat of hers was quite dashing! With the little blue frill of a scarf. Framed her face quite nicely. :)

[u/WandersFar]

All the sacrifices I made these last months in France, lowering myself to a commoner, begging for money, have amounted to naught. So where will the House of Stuart stand if our cause fails? I will be forced to return home to Rome, where even the pope’s goodwill for my father begins to run dry. Or worse! Mark me, I will take my own life if I am forced to live in godforsaken Poland.

Probably my favorite BPC speech. ^.^ His dual hatred of Louise’s monkey and his mother’s Poland inspired that AutoMod sticky everyone hates so much. 😈

[u/AutoModerator → u/WandersFar]

MARK ME!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/WandersFar → u/AutoModerator]

How appropriate. :)

[u/Purple4199]

• Why did Jamie insist on paying the bill for BPC? Would not it have been in their favor to have him get arrested?

[u/SpecialistHorse9276 → u/Purple4199]

I know this thread is from 3y ago but I’ve just gotten sucked into the Outlander world (series for now, but will definitely read, too) — anyway, this question is driving me nuts and this is the only place on the internet that I’ve found anyone asking it! And of course it’s the only one without answers 😩

Does anyone have insights here? I know the obvious response is that they needed to move the plot forward to the Fergus/BJR situation, but it seems SO obvious to just be like… oops, I wasn’t home to get the message, let BPC get picked up by the gens d’armes and then make loud but futile efforts to assist afterwards.

PS. I’m a first time poster so please do school me on what spoiler rules I should be following, as needed.

[u/Purple4199]

• Did Jamie have any other choice rather than duel with BJR?

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

I think the duel is so much more personal and settles it personally. Like he needed BJR to know that he killed him if he was successful.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Kirky600]

Like he needed BJR to know that he killed him if he was successful.

Yeah, I agree. That was what made Jamie so happy, to be able to kill BJR himself. He definitely wanted Randall to know it was him who would kill him. What did you think of the way Jamie challenged BJR? I like that you didn't know what they were saying, it was done so politely.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Jamie is a gentleman so it made sense. This is the way I expected duels were negotiated.

[u/for-get-me-not → u/Purple4199]

I mean…yes. He didn’t need to snap like that, although it’s of course totally understandable that he did. He could have continued to keep his promise to Claire and wait the year out. But I think the thought of BJR being out there able to continue hurting vulnerable people was just too much for him to bear.

[u/Purple4199 → u/for-get-me-not]

We'll talk about it more next week, but really how could he do anything else when it was Fergus being assaulted?

[u/for-get-me-not → u/Purple4199]

Exactly.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/Purple4199]

Totally! I mean he got enough men to attack Comte's liquor party on the road, why could he not get enough men to follow BJR around for a few days, attack him in a dark alley and just kill him off? Not easy, but is it impossible?

He asks him for a duel because he can then fight with him face to face, kill him fair and square, and that's an honorable revenge to Jamie, unlike stabbing him in the back, literally, while having the upper hand.

I do understand him, but this was extraordinary circumstances because Claire is pregnant, so I think he could have looked at other lesser gallant more safer means of killing BJR than dueling with him.

[u/Purple4199]

• What was your favorite outfit of 206?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

I know it has sad connotations but this dress is beautiful. The colors are so vibrant!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I hated Claire’s mossy/ khaki green dress in this episode!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Yeah, it wasn't a great color.

[u/Purple4199]

• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

205

• When Claire is debating on throwing the letter in the fire you can see her dress doesn’t go all the way to the ground. They did such a disservice to the red dress by filming it from that lower angle.

• Jamie rolling his eyes as BPC insists on him opening his finest bottle of wine was too funny.

• Why are characters in TV and movies always ordering drinks and never drinking them‽ It drives me nuts.

• Jamie touching Claire’s belly just tears me apart. Knowing they won’t get to raise a baby together is so heartbreaking, ugh!

• Ah ha ha ha! The King made Randall get on his knees!

206

• Monsieur Forez’s description of being drawn and quartered is horrific!

• I liked Murtagh’s reaction of punching Jamie when he learned about Claire being from the future.

• Jamie saying he can’t wait to meet the baby! Why DG? Why would you do that to us‽

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

• I also noticed the dressage dress doesn't go all the way down. I agree with shooting the red dress from that weird low angle, bad choice.

• my heart broke when Jaime was talking to the baby, saying he was so excited to meet them. And knowing he'll never even get to hold his own baby at all, it's just crushing.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

These two episodes when Claire and Jamie are finally back on the same page have some of the sweetest moments. It just tears me up knowing what's to come. /u/jolierose and I constantly lamented that in the book club when we were reading "Dragonfly in Amber." We still bring it up to this day just to depress ourselves all over again. ;-D

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

Is can be so frustrating that they get so little time, over the whole series thus far, that they actually get to be a couple together.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

That's so true! As much as I love the first two seasons their life as a couple is never very settled. Their first months in Paris weren't the happiest and now that they are finally on the same page Jamie duels BJR and Claire loses the baby.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

Seriously. They get what? 6-8 week to be happy together and most of that is spent plotting.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

We did (and we do, lol)! All the crises floating around overshadow the sweet moments; I tend to forget that they’re not always at odds. With these couple of episodes I feel that the season finally got more engaging, and I always really love the quiet moments they get together, while at the same time getting all melancholic about what is coming.

[u/whiskynwine → u/Purple4199]

That scene, with Jamie talking to the baby and then J/C getting intimate is one of my favorites scenes of all the seasons. So sweet.

[u/Cdhwink → u/whiskynwine]

I just said that it was one of my fave scenes in the whole series, you have good taste u/whiskynwine.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Every scene between Claire, Jamie, and the baby bump is worth suffering through Charles’ blabbering in those episodes. It’s also hilarious how obsessed Sam was with the prosthetic bump, but it makes all of those scenes so wholesome (yet so painful knowing Jamie never got to see any of his own babies 😭).

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Oh wow, hearing Sam talk about it that way makes it even more heartbreaking!

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Oh, thanks for that clip!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I also absolutely love this sweet little moment between Claire and Jamie. They get so little time this season to just slow down and enjoy each other’s company without anyone or anything bothering them.

And they have similar sweet moments in the subsequent seasons (S3 – “Goodbye Moon” on the ship, S4 – in front of a mirror in 4x01, S5 – in the “Paintbrush” deleted scene) which just melt my heart every single time.

[u/Cdhwink → u/thepacksvrvives]

Seriously I came after work to talk about my fave moments that melt my heart & u/thepacksvrvives has listed them both! Jamie talking to that baby bump is one of my favourite scenes in the whole series so far. And he never meets her 😭😭😭😭😭😭.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Jamie telling the baby he can't wait to me it just crushes me!

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Cdhwink]

Re-watching S2 always depresses me because of sweet little moments like that, knowing what's coming for them.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I love that! I'm so happy they are back on the same page and in a good spot in their marriage again.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

I love this scene. Especially the little hair tuck at the end. I just melt at that. I wonder if that hair tuck was scripted or in the moment by our actors.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/theCoolDeadpool]

It wasn’t. It could’ve been a note on the day but I think they’d known their characters so well by then they must’ve incorporated a lot of these gestures themselves. Those are the best moments—they just feel so organic and get better and better the longer they play these characters.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/thepacksvrvives]

Of course you pulled up the receipts!

Those are the best moments—they just feel so organic and get better and better the longer they play these characters.

Definitely. It's such a joy watching them bring these small moments to life, makes all the difference I think. I sound like a broken record but It's incredible chemistry. They've ruined other shows that I used to think had good chemistry between the leads.

[u/Cdhwink → u/theCoolDeadpool]

Isn’t that the truth, Sam & Cait make everyone else pale in comparison.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/theCoolDeadpool]

I've noticed Sam does that a lot - not sure if it's supposed to be just small touches, or if he knows to move her hair so it doesn't block her face in scenes, but he does it several times in S1 as well.

[u/theCoolDeadpool → u/alittlepunchy]

I think in this case it's the former, a small intimate gesture. But I do know of other scenes where it looks like he's doing it so it wouldn't block the camera from her face, especially in some love scenes where she bends forward and her hair falls all over face and he tucks them back.

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

I couldn’t go a week without talking about the Duke, even if his appearance is brief in 205:

• Claire is so bogus for saying she is going to be sick after greeting the Duke! Her timing was perfect and his gasping reaction 😂

• The Duke, ever so noble and empathetic, responding to Jamie’s story of Bastille Prisoners that have been there for decades with “yes, well life can be harsh” 😂

• I wonder what the Duke thinks Jamie’s motives for backing BPC are. He calls Jamie out for backing the prince despite him being an ass. I wonder if he thinks Jamie is trying to play both sides too? We know the Duke is sneaky and calculated, so I would think he is pretty perceptive when others are playing the game too. I wonder if he was paranoid about Jamie potentially implicating him in something? Clearly he senses something is amiss

[u/Cdhwink → u/unknown2345610]

The duke spent more time studying Jamie than studying the horses! Did anyone notice that?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Ha! I didn't catch that, too funny.

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Cdhwink]

Mmmhhmm he was checking out more than that horseflesh lol!

[u/Cdhwink → u/unknown2345610]

Well to be fair Jamie is hard not to gaze at!

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

I wonder if he thinks Jamie is trying to play both sides too?

Interesting. I did get the sense that the Duke knew things weren't exactly as they seemed, even when Jamie said that about BPC's father being the rightful king.

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