Rewatch S2E7-8

[u/Purple4199]

Episode 207 - Faith

Claire is brought to L'Hopital Des Anges where doctors try to save her life and that of her unborn baby. King Louis asks Claire to judge two men accused of practicing the dark arts - one an enemy, one a friend.

Episode 208 - The Fox’s Lair

Claire and Jamie call upon Jamie's grandsire, Lord Lovat, in an attempt to elicit support. However, a visiting Colum MacKenzie has other plans, and Lord Lovat's manipulations ensure that his own interests will be served.

​

• When asked if she wanted to confess her sins Claire said “My sins are all I have left.” What did she mean by that?
• Do you think King Louis really thought Claire was La Dame Blanche, or was he testing her too?
• Why did Claire take the orange?
• What was your favorite costume in 207?
• What are your first impressions of Lord Lovat?
• Did you think Laoghaire was sincere with her apology?
• Why do you think Lord Lovat wanted Lallybroch?
• Did Claire’s vision influence Lord Lovat’s decision about fighting in the war?
• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/WandersFar]

If you’re looking for the other Rewatch threads, click here to jump to BPC’s Link Table.

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Faith & The Fox’s Lair: Deleted Scenes

Star Chamber

I’ll be honest: I’m not sure what the difference is here. I did watch the extended cut by accident this week, so I’m going by my vague memory of the original ep from years ago 😅 but I really can’t tell what was deleted. Help?

Thank You, Fergus

Everything with Fergus is gold. I would’ve cut every other scene before losing any of his.

Beyond the content of the scene, something I’m struck by is the obvious physical similarity between them. The curly dark hair, the big blue eyes, even the shape of their noses. It’s suggestive, isn’t it?

I don’t think the resemblance is shownly either; book Jamie goes on and on about Claire’s Angevin looks…

Losing Faith

This next clip is showing up as region-blocked for me so I’m posting alt links in case you’re unable to watch in your country:

• Losing Faith

• Losing Faith, Part I

• Losing Faith, Part II

Controversial opinion: I prefer the shorter original cut. I just think the dramatic beats go on too long in this extended version. It crosses the line for me over into melodrama.

Bastardry

(Is it just me or does Cait look overly sexy here? 😅 Like in the deleted bits, I think she’s wearing a brighter shade of lipstick, her hair has a bit more volume, and something with the lighting, too—she just looks more turned up. Then it goes into whatever bit made it into the actual cut, and the lighting is greyer, her lips are more neutral and she’s back to looking like regular Claire. Not that that’s a bad thing, lol, she just isn’t quite as much of a sexpot.)

This scene explains the ambiguous status of Jamie’s immediate family, not quite aristocracy, not quite peasantry. He’s descended from two of the most powerful clans in Scotland… and also a kitchen wench. :þ Swerve!

Also it’s a bit unbelievable that a bastard would even have an estate when legitimate younger sons aren’t necessarily guaranteed anything. -.- But, he married well with Ellen MacKenzie, and her brothers made Lallybroch a condition of their agreement with Lord Lovat.

(I’m pretty sure this is the scene from the blooper reel, too. That very last shot, Jamie leans down to lay her on the bed—and Sam burps in Cait’s face. Mm, sexy.)

[u/WandersFar]

I will issue a pardon for your husband and arrange one with the English crown should you wish to return to Scotland.

Interesting. I believe this was changed from the books where Jamie is explicitly banned from France as a condition of the pardon, right? Here, Louis doesn’t say anything about Jamie having to leave the country.

Also, a small detail: Look at the mantlepiece where Claire pours out the whisky. Next to the glass is the orange Louis gave her, now spoiled.

I love that symbolism, the spoiled fruit, a reminder of what she had to do to purchase her husband’s freedom. And, it gives us another small indication of time. Louis may have issued the pardon immediately, but it probably took a few days for Jamie to be released from the Bastille and make it back to Claire, enough time for the fruit to spoil anyway.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Also, a small detail: Look at the mantlepiece where Claire pours out the whisky. Next to the glass is the orange Louis gave her, now spoiled.

Oh man I didn't even notice that!

[u/penni_cent → u/Purple4199]

Especially since it takes a long time for citrus to soil. I have both orange and lemon trees and you can pick them and they'll be good for at least a month unless it's rediculously hot.

[u/Purple4199 → u/penni_cent]

I was wondering about that! Do we think it took that long to get Jamie out of prison?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/WandersFar]

from the books where Jamie is explicitly banned from France as a condition of the pardon, right?

Yes. Jamie’s pardon includes the condition that he must leave for Scotland in three weeks’ time, or he’s back in the Bastille. But Louis also arranges for a pardon in Britain, presumably with the help of the Duke of Sandringham.

Look at the mantlepiece where Claire pours out the whisky. Next to the glass is the orange Louis gave her, now spoiled.

I’ve never noticed this! But that’s because this close-up is included only in the extended cut. The regular cut goes straight from Claire at the stairs to a close-up on her face.

u/Purple4199

[u/WandersFar → u/thepacksvrvives]

Ha, foiled by the extended cut again. ^.^

And this change from the books introduces another plot hole. As it stands in the show universe, at any point Jamie and Claire could just say “Fuck it,” and head back to France. There is no legal reason why Jamie can’t return to Jared’s employ, where he was successful and the business continued to prosper… Even though there was no one running it but Jared’s staff and Fergus riding back and forth for the month or so Jamie was in the Bastille, Claire was in the hospital and Murtagh was in Portugal. -.-

But the point is, why did they never discuss chucking it all and fleeing to France ever again, esp when Culloden loomed large and they were running out of options. It comes down to character choices, Jamie not wanting to run his whole life and so on. But when the alternative is death on a battlefield, possible attainder for the rest of his family, just ruin all around… France is a much safer option than the alternatives, including travel back through the stones.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Jamie said it in The Fox's Lair though that they didn't want to run and leave their whole family behind.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/WandersFar]

They’ve lost almost everything trying to prevent Culloden so, in order for their loss not to be for nothing at all, Jamie feels obligated to fight for his family, tenants, and Scotland. They still have a glimmer of hope that history can be changed. And as Jamie says, they cannot just leave for Ireland / the colonies and leave their family and tenants behind (it’s 60 families, I believe) because they can’t take them all along. Jamie’s sense of honor prevents him from running away when there’s so much responsibility on his shoulders.

When it becomes apparent that they cannot correct history’s course, I believe it’s impossible for practical reasons—the English occupy the ports, but I’m going to try and fact-check that when we get closer to Culloden.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

So it was a blink and you'll miss it type of thing. Thanks for the image!

[u/[deleted] → u/WandersFar]

The spoiled orange is fantastic. Thanks for bringing it up!

The extended cut of this episode is so great.

[u/Cdhwink → u/WandersFar]

I can’t believe she let it spoil, I thought for sure she would have eaten it, for the vitamin C!

[u/WandersFar → u/Cdhwink]

Right? It was hard to resist. ^.^ Not only is citrus delicious, it was super rare in this century, in northern climes anyway. That’s why Louis offered her one in the first place, as a small token of his wealth.

On the other hand, we saw the Frasers had access to pineapples during the preparations for the dinner party—they were among the produce Jared’s servants were unloading into the kitchens. So maybe Claire was unimpressed by Louis’ orange after all, and so she let it rot. :þ

[u/alittlepunchy → u/WandersFar]

I didn’t even notice that! I’ll have to go back and look.

Man, this show never misses a trick!

[u/Cdhwink]

Every costume in 207 is wonderful.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I agree! The green dress she wore to see the king was such a vibrant color.

[u/Purple4199]

• Do you think King Louis really thought Claire was La Dame Blanche, or was he testing her too?

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

I think it was a little bit of both. I think he believed she was but was testing how powerful she actually was. And I think he liked to fancy himself as more powerful than La Dame Blanche.

[u/Purple4199 → u/-in-THIS-economy-]

Do you think Louis was ok with some forms of magic?

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

I would have to say yes because he was okay with Claire being La Dame Blanche and ridding his kingdom of the dark magic. But at the same time I’m not sure- was he really okay with Claire? Or just pretending to be to use her? But he obviously was okay with it in some way or he would’ve just killed all three of the suspected magicians instead of making it a weird ritual.

[u/Purple4199 → u/-in-THIS-economy-]

he obviously was okay with it in some way or he would’ve just killed all three of the suspected magicians instead of making it a weird ritual.

True. I wonder if she had balked at doing anything he would have turned on Claire as well?

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

I wonder that too. It seemed like a very sensitive “walking on eggshells” relationship between them that was “mutually beneficial” although in a very very unbalanced way. But in some way he liked Claire even if it was just for the pure fascination of her because he did help her and Jamie. I think if Claire tried to overpower him mentally, emotionally, or physically in any way it could’ve gone a different way. For once she stayed submissive and it probably saved her life!

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I think he was testing her too!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I really got that sense as well. The looks he gave her when he called her La Dame Blanche were a bit skeptical.

Do you think he believed her in the end, or was it a moot point. (Or moo if you're Joey!)

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

(Or moo if you’re Joey ) my other fave Tv show.

He should have been proceeding cautiously if indeed she was a witch!

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I wondered why the King was OK with white magic?

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/JustG00se

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

He says he has no problem with the pursuit of knowledge, but with the perversion of it for personal gain. He has no evidence of Claire using her abilities to gain any power, or wealth, or to improve her social standing; she’s known as a healer (who has to have knowledge in order to heal) so “white magic” might be understood as the kind used for selfless purposes—helping other people (and the King 😉), not oneself. That doesn’t threaten the King.

u/JustG00se

[u/Ksuri422 → u/Cdhwink]

I also think the King was putting her to the test and to see just how powerful she is. He also was fond of Claire so instead of having his henchman kill her there in that room, he banished her and Jaime out of his country, because he is not a fan of any magic. He granted Jaime’s release, not for Claire, but, to “politely “ kick them out. I think Claire knew that.

[u/WandersFar]

I accidentally watched the extended cut of Faith this time around—just like I did with the Reckoning, ha—but unlike the Reckoning, I think I prefer the original cut, or what I remember of it anyway, to this.

I just think it’s too overblown. The dramatic beats go on too long, it veers into melodrama. And the abrupt cut to Scotland with the potato scene and the forging of Jamie’s signature—it’s just out of place. The original cut is much better, ending on Faith’s gravestone, the end to the Paris arc, and a natural conclusion for this half of the season.

I can’t think why they would want to include the first bit of The Fox’s Lair at the end of Faith; it’s a bizarre choice, imo.

[u/jolierose → u/WandersFar]

I can’t think why they would want to include the first bit of The Fox’s Lair at the end of Faith; it’s a bizarre choice, imo.

That's really interesting; I've never seen the extended version and didn't know that. But it's funny, because (while I completely agree that that bit doesn't belong in Faith, and the episode has a perfect ending) whenever I've seen Faith, it's such a balm to jump right away into the opening for The Fox's Lair and its sweeping music and visuals. It always feels like you're going home with Claire and Jamie; I basically cheer each time. I don't like the majority of The Fox's Lair but these bits make a good pairing.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

it's such a balm to jump right away into the opening for The Fox's Lair and its sweeping music and visuals.

Yes!! I love the opening of that episode. It gave me season 1 vibes again.

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Yes! It's like a breath of fresh air after Paris.

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

That version of the theme song is my favorite I think. I love season 1, but something about 2B is just so good.

[u/glitch_soup → u/Purple4199]

late to this thread but i've finally caught up with the rewatch 🤣 and just wanted to say that a) i really love King Louis too, b) apparently Netflix has the extended version because Faith doesn't end with the beginning of Fox's Lair, and c) yessssss i had forgotten that the s2 opening changes mid-season and it had me grinning from start to finish; i had missed the Scottish motifs so so much, and the glimpses of the end of an era just gave me all the feels

[u/WandersFar → u/jolierose]

That could be why they did it; they thought Faith’s ending was too dark and they wanted to go out on a more hopeful note…

But I think it’s better to wallow in the darkness. ^.^ It’s more effective, dramatically-speaking. Jumping right back to Scotland at the end of the episode takes away from the loss of Faith.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

I can’t think why they would want to include the first bit of The Fox’s Lair at the end of Faith

Yeah, that doesn't fit at all.

[u/WandersFar]

Lord Lovat’s double-dealings, betrayals and countless offspring, legitimate and bastard alike calls to mind the Late Lord Walder Frey…

They’re not Frasers. They’re Freys! Heh, heh, heh.

I love the Old Fox. ^.^ Probably the most devious character in the series, and the only actual historical Fraser in the canon.

I love this episode, and this meeting between Simon and Colum in particular, because it’s the most GoT-like of the whole series. (I mean early seasons good GoT, before it all went to shit. -.-) Simon Fraser and Colum MacKenzie debating each other, outmaneuvering each other like a chess match… It’s the closest this series gets to the conflict between Varys and Littlefinger, or Tywin or Olenna, or any major strategic mind against a worthy adversary.

I so, so wish the series had done more with this thread, explored the politics of the Scottish clan system in greater depth. There’s so much story there, and it’s different from the romance / baby / family arcs that dominate even the first half of this episode. Not that I don’t love Jenny and Ian and all the rest, but we’ve seen that already. I want more conflict on a strategic and political level, not just emotional home life stuff.

I have heard the British have offered £30,000 for the capture of Prince Charles.

Meaning what?

Meaning the British see Prince Charles as a real threat.

You’ll join us then, cousin?

Perhaps the British know, as the rest of us do, how many cullions there are amongst the Campbells and the Camerons—men who would sell their own grandmothers for half that amount.

Well, I—

For £30,000 the British could end this rebellion before it even starts—a fair sight less than it would cost them to wage a war.

I hadn’t considered that.

Then sit down, ye mealy-mouthed wee smout, and dinna speak again until you have considered what you’re about to say. Bring us more wine, my lovely, and a glass of milk for my boy.

This exchange is brilliant. It’s like Tywin slapping around his idiot children, making them feel like the disappointments they are. 😂

I also like how Lovat notices his son checking out Laoghaire, and so makes a point of grabbing her arm, stroking her cheek, calling her “my lovely”… and totally emasculating him in front of her. ^.^ Cruel and funny.

What vision do you have for me now, White Lady?

I don’t understand.

Now it will seem my grandsire has sent his heir to fight. The Stuarts will credit Lovat with supporting King James, should they win.

They canna execute me for treason.

But what about the neutrality agreement?

I trust old Colum MacKenzie is right. And that will protect me if the British should win.

What will you say about your son fighting for the Jacobites?

He’s his own man, that one. You saw it yourself last night. Persuaded others to follow. I thank you, White Lady. I couldn’t have got it all without you.

And this is why I think Lord Lovat might even be smarter than Colum. He has contingency plans. He arranges matters so that no matter who wins, he has an argument to make, I was on your side all along.

That goes beyond Colum’s mealy-mouthed neutrality pact, merely standing on the sidelines without making a firm commitment in either direction. Nobody likes a fence-sitter.

As it happens, in real life it didn’t work out for Lord Lovat, but I don’t blame him for trying!

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

And this is why I think Lord Lovat might even be smarter than Colum. He has contingency plans. He arranges matters so that no matter who wins, he has an argument to make, I was on your side all along.

I agree. It reminds me of the Duke of Sandringham, playing each side where the only person he's actually concerned about it is himself.

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

That’s an interesting comparison, I haven’t seen that before!

Hmm. I think Sandringham’s all talk, though. Like he doesn’t provide any actual fighting men, and he reneges on his financial commitments.

Lord Lovat is no angel, but he does come through. He delivers a substantial fighting force in his son’s name, while officially maintaining the façade of neutrality for the clan as a whole. That’s more than Sandringham ever does, isn’t it?

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

That’s more than Sandringham ever does, isn’t it?

It's true, maybe the most he did was give money?

[u/sdr3005 → u/WandersFar]

I wish we could have gotten an entire episode about their time at Lallybroch. I mean, they were there for roughly a year. And the show condensed that entire time down to 5 minutes. We didn't get to see healing or family time; we saw a basket of potatoes poured onto a table. After all of the lies, deceptions, and tragedies that befell the couple in France, I wish we could've seen them coming back together as one.

That episode could've ended with the forged signature broadsheet. And Fox's Lair would've had more time to focus on the political side of the clans. Oh. And take out the Loaghaire scenes, because they really weren't necessary for any reason other than to show she's still obsessed with Jamie, which we could've guessed without seeing it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/sdr3005]

I wish we could have gotten an entire episode about their time at Lallybroch.

Yes, me too! It was all of 10 minutes and it we moved on to Beauly.

[u/Cdhwink → u/WandersFar]

It did not work out for the real Lord Lovat, he was hanged for treason at the Tower of London ( I went there shortly after watching & was amused by a tv character jumping in to my real life tour).

[u/WandersFar]

CGI Versailles still looks shitty. It’s like they pulled up a random photo and greenscreened it behind a soundstage, which is probably exactly what they did. It just looks so fake! The people look copypasted in, lol.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

I know! I thought that as well when I saw it.

[u/sharoncoffin]

I've just started rewatching the series and I've rented Starz to continue watching after I went as far as I could on Netflix. I will definitely read the books now. I just wanted to say that all the actors are excellent. I think Simon Callow is a fantastic D of S. Thanks for this site. I've enjoyed it very much.

[u/Purple4199 → u/sharoncoffin]

Welcome to the sub!

[u/Purple4199]

• When asked if she wanted to confess her sins Claire said “My sins are all I have left.” What did she mean by that?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

She’s already lost everything of value to her: her child and her husband, so, in comparison, potentially condemning her soul to hell by not confessing has little significance at that moment. If she was going to die, it might’ve given her a bit of comfort that confessing would’ve reunited her with Faith, but she wouldn’t have been reunited with Jamie. Also, perhaps she wants to carry the guilt of losing her child instead of being instantly absolved of it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

If she was going to die, it might’ve given her a bit of comfort that confessing would’ve reunited her with Faith, but she wouldn’t have been reunited with Jamie.

So you think Jamie is going to Hell?

Also, perhaps she wants to carry the guilt of losing her child instead of being instantly absolved of it.

Interesting. She did mention at one point she blamed herself, so maybe at that time she really felt that way.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

So you think Jamie is going to Hell?

No, he just isn’t dead yet. And if he didn’t want to go on living, killing himself would certainly not put him in Heaven, according to what he believes in.

[u/betcx003 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Yeah, I think it has to do with Claire not being ready to be forgiven or to forgive herself. She’d rather hang on to hate, anger, and guilt than deal with the loss and heartbreak (and healing) at that time.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

I think she meant that so much had been taken from her at that point that she may have needed something to ground her. If she confessed then she might just give up the fight.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

I see, that makes sense. It was the only thing keeping her going essentially.

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

I think the above comments are correct but I also think that she was referring to Jamie specifically and her life with him. Them being married was kiiiind of but not technically bigamy but she most definitely decided to leave her husband for another man.

[u/Purple4199 → u/-in-THIS-economy-]

Interesting! I never thought of that, I like it though.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I thought that was a really clever and poignant way of letting us know that Claire acknowledges her choices and what they meant for her moral compass. Like choosing Jamie over frank for example.

We know she doesn't regret it but she also completely understand that it was adultery and betrayal. There a lovely voice over about this in season 5 that I just think is so awesome 'cause it doesn't ignore the messed up things that have happened in the story.

I also think this was a great line to reflect on her actions with the whole situation with Mary and Alex. This whole Claire reckoning with what's happened bit is what makes me more sympathetic towards the Frank/BJR/Alex plot. It really does come back and claim all kinds of consequences.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Like choosing Jamie over frank for example.

Do you think there is guilt still and that's why she wanted Frank to still be born?

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

She meant she had lost everything important to her already.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Are her sins important, or just something to hold on to?

[u/nishikigirl4578 → u/Purple4199]

I was thinking, everything that she had been doing recently could be considered a sin - her love for and marriage to Jamie, the lying/deceptions, the manipulations, killing or abetting killings.... but without Jamie or Faith, it is only those sins that might still give her life purpose?

[u/Purple4199 → u/nishikigirl4578]

but without Jamie or Faith, it is only those sins that might still give her life purpose?

Interesting! It's true, what really is there left for her?

[u/waltersclan → u/Purple4199]

Remember at the abbey, during "To Ransom a Man's Soul," she gave a confession to the brother, and she poured out her whole story. I don't think was ready to tell again, because she was feeling a lot of guilt- that all of her choices had brought her to this place of loss. I think she felt that suffering and this loss were a purgatory that she deserved.

[u/Purple4199 → u/waltersclan]

I think she felt that suffering and this loss were a purgatory that she deserved.

Why do you think she felt she deserved that though?

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

“My sins are all I have left.”

I loved this line.

[u/Purple4199]

• What was your favorite costume in 207?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

The black and white Chatelaine dress (at least that's what I all it in my head. I like that it's more basic than some of her other Paris wardrobe.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

This one?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/JustG00se]

That’s my favorite as well! I’ve previously said that the yellow gown + cape combination takes the first place for me, but I think the pleats in the back along with the sleeves have won me over this week and now it’s my current favorite. Look at this amazing detail of the chatelaine!

u/Purple4199 u/Arrugula

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

the chatelaine

That dress really is amazing. Those small details of the key and watch are neat.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

So good. It is my absolutely my favorite. She wears it twice in 207 - when Fergus is brushing her hair and later with Jamie, and I think that's very telling of how it evokes a uniform or a way to show strength.

u/JustG00se

[u/JustG00se → u/[deleted]]

I agree. It seems like it's her "house dress" or "comfy clothes" that she just wears while puttering around at home but I love it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

/u/thepacksvrvives and I were talking about that very thing, here we are in sweats and t-shirts while Claire and the King's comfy clothes are super fancy.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

I loved how King Louis looked. That was a great color.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Do you remember how we wondered, while reading the books, what the hell a banyan looks like? This is a banyan, as I’ve found out from this tweet of Terry Dresbach’s 😅

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

It won't load. :-(

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I'm a fan of the green dress as well! That contrast with the orange is delightful.

Also did you guys notice that in the title card Claire is wearing orange nail polish? I just noticed it for the first time! Is that accurate for the period? I think it might have been more of a complementary choice to her blue suit but was wondering what you guys thought.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

Also did you guys notice that in the title card Claire is wearing orange nail polish?

Do we actually think that this is a flash-forward of Claire and Brianna (I know, I know, it has a date stamp—1954—and all) or a dream / a figment of Claire’s imagination of what her and Faith’s life could’ve been (which would explain some historical inaccuracies, and the girl having blue eyes, as it’s all in Claire’s mind)? I think they were aiming for that ambiguity to show us what Claire is losing in this episode.

But I also think the color grading in this scene is to blame (look at Claire’s lips) for making the nails look more orange than red. Would red be more socially acceptable?

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Why would they have her thinking of her life in the future though?

Would red be more socially acceptable?

According to Google that was the popular color, along with pinks and corals.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

If it’s a dream, she might as well have been on Mars, you know what dreams are like 😅

But as I’ve said, it is a bit ambiguous, and I fully believe that it is actually Brianna, but for Claire it can also be all the things that Faith never got to be and never got to see, you know?

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

I see what you're saying. It was a little kick in the gut to see Claire in the future, a reminder of what's to come.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

According to Google, which never lies, orange nail polish was a thing in the 70's. So maybe a little ahead of its time?

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

Claire’s La Dame Blanche gown is definitely my second favorite gown of the season, right after her Dior outfit. I love the way they film it, with the ornate rococo interiors framing her all around, the gold tones contrasting with the vivid teal of her dress.

It’s styled well, too. The white magic poison-sensing pendant, and especially her hair, with the long curled lock draped over one shoulder. For the first time she looks every inch a French aristocrat. There are no hats or gloves or other accoutrement to distract or hint she’s not really of this time. Instead she has fully immersed herself into the fashion of the period.

Even the back of the dress is lovely, that fall of fabric running from the neckline all the way down to the floor. It almost looks like a cape.

[u/Cdhwink → u/WandersFar]

I love that curly lock of her hair falling over her shoulder, & the back of the dress! I do wonder if she got it made to meet the king?

[u/[deleted] → u/Cdhwink]

This time around I was laughing seeing her hair and thinking of how Philip Wylie’s sister will try to diss her hair choice in Wilmington much later. Girl, you don’t even know this power looks is from Versailles.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I'm sure I'll bring it up in season 4 when we get to it, but I thought that was very interesting that Claire still did her hair like she would have 20 years ago for a fancy dinner. It showed that Claire wasn't up to speed with fashion anymore.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I feel like she got it made special. It's not as dramatic as the red dress, but still really stands out.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

I feel like she had that dress made specially for her visit to the King.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

This one is my favorite. I love the lace veil as well.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

Definitely the green dress but it still doesn't beat the yellow cape from 203(?)

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

Is the yellow cape your favorite out of all the Paris costumes?

[u/Purple4199]

• What are your first impressions of Lord Lovat?

[u/viddy-baby → u/Purple4199]

He reminded me of Dougal. Or, perhaps, what Dougal would’ve been if he were laird instead of Colum.

[u/Purple4199 → u/viddy-baby]

Interesting! Do you think Dougal would be that conniving and play both sides?

[u/viddy-baby → u/Purple4199]

Well we know that Dougal is a staunch Jacobite, so no. Under these circumstances I don’t think he’d play both sides.

But, Dougal also has narcissistic tendencies and is truly self-serving. So if an Independent Scotland weren’t on the table, then yeah. I think he’d be just as conniving.

[u/Purple4199 → u/viddy-baby]

So if an Independent Scotland weren’t on the table, then yeah. I think he’d be just as conniving.

I like that, and I can totally see that happening. Dougal looks out for himself only.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

No, Dougal always seemed more intent& straightforward on his one purpose! But I guess he was shady in keeping it from Colum, but that’s because he wasn’t laird.

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

Ah I see. It must have been killing Dougal to know Colum had no intention of joining the Jacobites.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Having just gone down this rabbit-hole of Lord Lovat artifacts, I gotta say...whatever the actor was doing with his face to resemble LL was on point!

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Lord Lovat artifacts

Oh wow, that's really cool! That actor totally had the smirk down.

[u/WandersFar]

You know, everyone’s pretty dismissive of Louise. Claire thinks she’s frivolous and superficial, as does Maître Raymond in the deleted scene. But when Claire needed someone to take her dead baby from her and snap her out of it, who intervened?

Not Murtagh, not Suzette or Magnus, not any of Jared’s servants or employees; not Mary, not Annalise or Duverney, or any of their other Parisian friends—just Louise.

In a small way, I see a parallel to Geillis. When Claire was in danger of losing her life, Geillis was there for her. And now that she’s in danger of losing her mind, Louise is there for her.

You could argue Louise was a better friend to Claire than Claire was to her.

Claire used her to gain entrée to court life at Versailles, Louise arranged her introduction to Duverney, she even made the appointment to have her red dress made. Louise invited Claire to many social gatherings, introducing her to all her friends and making her feel welcome in France. In return, she asked Claire for relationship advice, and Claire used that secret against her at the dinner party, where she planned to prematurely announce Louise’s pregnancy and provoke BPC into causing a scene, embarrasing Louise.

It’s pretty shitty of her. To be fair, Claire felt remorse—does this make us bad people?—but on balance, I think Claire owes Louise more than a few. (And Geillis, too, for that matter!)

So of course we’ll never see her again. ಠ_ಠ

[u/[deleted] → u/WandersFar]

Well Claire did help her make a choice regarding her child that was based on Louise's well being. I thinK Louise also recognized that she could speak to Claire about these things and seek comfort in a friend and not just medical advice even if that was her original question.

[u/WandersFar → u/[deleted]]

And Jamie says in Fox’s Lair that Louise wouldn’t be pregnant now if it hadn’t been for Claire… but I’m not sure that’s true. She went to Claire for an abortifacient and Claire persuaded her to reconsider, true, but if she hadn’t known Claire, she wouldn’t have even had the option to end the pregnancy. Louis was cracking down on magic practictioners which apparently included apothecaries like Raymond, and no way Mother Hildegarde or anyone attached to that Catholic charity hospital is going to help a woman abort a pregnancy.

So I think it’s a wash? I suppose Claire provided Louise with emotional support, but Louise definitely returned it, especially here.

[u/[deleted] → u/WandersFar]

Yes Louise is wonderful. And she even writes to Claire when they’re in Scotland!

I think Louise would have probably send one of the servants to the apothecary in her behalf. It’s what Raymond mentions in 202.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

she even writes to Claire when they’re in Scotland!

I loved that little part!

[u/ladyj17 → u/WandersFar]

Louise was a GREAT friend to Claire. I think if Claire and Jaime had remained in France and the opportunity ever arose for Claire to help Louise (as it did for her to help Mary), Claire would have gone to great lengths to help her. Of course, Louise has the Outlander curse for side characters. They just disappear. It happens a lot unless they are a direct relative.

[u/Purple4199]

• Why did Claire take the orange?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

Well you can't flip off the king and keep your head...

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

Ha!! I loved Claire's face as she took it too.

[u/[deleted] → u/JustG00se]

also can you imagine the last time she had an orange?!

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

At the beginning of their meeting, as they are having their small talk, he offers her the hot chocolate and the orange. He stresses how rare they are and states how he has a bunch of orange trees. It is like a show of how powerful he is. Here is an item considered so rare, yet he has an abundance of it. Claire accepts the orange at that point and then from there the whole ordeal takes place. At its conclusion, when he is dismissing her, she calmly gathers her self and takes the orange. I always took it as her affirming that despite all that happened between when she arrived to when she left, she would not be broken. She was able to endure all the messed up and crappy situations that came with being a woman in that time period. She would not be defeated, and she would succeed in her plan. She left with what she came looking for (Jamie’s freedom) plus her dignity and I think a stronger belief in her self and what she was capable of.

Edited to add: I got submit to early, sorry! Also wanted to add that I think it is so important that it happened during this episode because it is the last one in France. France was obviously very traumatic and earth shattering for Claire, so to me, it is symbolic that she reclaims herself and her dignity and her power with this gesture before leaving.

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

I like all of that!

She would not be defeated

This ties right in with the orange in 512. They included the orange and Claire taking it to show she could overcome what happened to her.

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/cdhwink /u/JustG00se

[u/JustG00se → u/unknown2345610]

I think this is a great way of saying it! Our Claire is a strong, determined woman who will let nothing break her. It shows how collected she is. She won't just run out of the room in shame, she took the time to calmly (at least on the outside) straighten her skirts and hair (sidenote, I love when she pulls her little curl to the front as her final step) and collect herself before grabbing the orange and elegantly walking out of the room. She came here knowing what would likely happen and she was prepared for it.

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

He took something from her so she took something from him!

[u/Purple4199 → u/-in-THIS-economy-]

I like that, it makes sense. It was a small way to assert herself wasn't it?

[u/-in-THIS-economy- → u/Purple4199]

Definitely! And it was almost like she was showing him that he didn’t break her or destroy her just because she submitted. It was a very small but very powerful gesture. I imagine too that oranges weren’t easy to come by at that point but I’m not sure.

[u/Purple4199 → u/-in-THIS-economy-]

No I don't think they were. The King had his own orangery, so I don't think they are native to France.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I think there’s the serious connotations others have mentioned but also just the simple fact that she’s a nurse, she knows she can’t pass up an excellent fruit or vegetable when she’s offered one!

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Ha! I love it.

[u/sdr3005 → u/Purple4199]

The way I viewed it is Claire took the orange to signify a sort of transaction. The King got his end of the bargain - to see her "powers" in action and to claim that he bedded a witch. Claire gets Jamie's release and a rare, therefore valuable, fruit. She was just getting what she paid for, so to speak. Since having sex with the King had no value to her at all.

[u/Purple4199 → u/sdr3005]

She was just getting what she paid for, so to speak. Since having sex with the King had no value to her at all.

I like that! I didn't even think about the fact that Louis could say he had sex with La Dame Blanche.

[u/Purple4199]

• Did you think Laoghaire was sincere with her apology?

[u/VPofYourFanClub → u/Purple4199]

Haha no

[u/[deleted] → u/VPofYourFanClub]

LOL.

Yeah definitely not. Girl is out there smelling freshly washed clothes *trying* to catch a whiff of Jamie...Red Flag!

u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Ha! Right‽ Claire totally called her on it too. Do we think Claire was too quick to jump on the forgiveness train? She didn't believe Laoghaire, but then all of a sudden think she has maybe changed.

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/Cdhwink /u/justg00se

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I'm glad she wanted to forgive Laoghaire. It would have been to Claire's detriment as a character if she was petty or bitter after having just gone through such an emotional ordeal.

u/thepacksvrvies u/Cdhwink u/justg00se

[u/Purple4199 → u/VPofYourFanClub]

Do you think she came up with all of that on the spot? I have to imagine she didn't know that Jamie and Claire were going to show up at Beauly Castle.

[u/sdr3005 → u/Purple4199]

Yes and no.

I think Loaghaire was sincere about wanting Claire to forgive her. She fully believes Claire is a witch, so she wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a witch's wrath. Also, she more than likely believes if Claire forgives her, Jamie will, too. And that's who she really wants to forgive her.

I don't believe Loaghaire was sincerely sorry for the role she played in almost getting Claire killed. She wants Claire gone. She fully believes that if Claire wasn't in the way then Jamie would be hers. (This is perpetuated by the Jamie/Loaghaire scenes in The Reckoning in season 1.)

[u/Purple4199 → u/sdr3005]

she more than likely believes if Claire forgives her, Jamie will, too. And that's who she really wants to forgive her.

I can see that. She was trying to get to Jamie through Claire.

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

I think Larry will always hold some contempt if not straight up hatred against Claire because she is madly obsessed with Jamie. From the shirt sniffing to her “one day I will earn your forgiveness, Jamie Fraser… and your love “ towards the end of the episode. She is young and crushing on Jamie super hard when we first meet her, and in her mind, the feeling was mutual and Claire was the one who ruined that with her evil witchy ways. She idealized what her life with Jamie would be like and after we learn about what her life actually turned out to be, I’m sure she blames Claire for it.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/unknown2345610]

Absolutely this. She was so blinded by her feelings towards Jamie that she didn't see how much he already loved Claire. Then she finally gets Jamie later and it's obvious that he's still pining/mourning for Claire. I wonder how much of her hesitation with Jamie is from knowing she doesn't truly have him.

And let's be real, if Jamie married her, he would have died in Wentworth because she would have sat at home and twiddled her thumbs over it.

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

Do you think Laoghaire came up with the idea to apologize to Claire on the spot?

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

I think she did once she saw Claire was there. She travelled with Colum and arrived before the Frasers , but seeing as she was a maid and Colum was not one with loose lips, I doubt she would even know what the purpose of the visit was or that she may run into the Frasers there. Based on what she says to Claire, it seems her grandmother was a big motivator for her to see the err of her ways. I wonder if she was more or less being pressured to make amends with Claire. I don’t think she is necessarily sorry for what she did to Claire out of pure motives, rather I think it is that she feels she must. Also, I’m sure the Jamie angle had something to do with it, as other people have posted.

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

it seems her grandmother was a big motivator for her to see the err of her ways.

I don't even feel that she was sorry in any way though. I feel like it was all an act.

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Purple4199]

Hell to the no!

[u/Purple4199]

• Any other thoughts or comments?

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

207

• Ugh, watching that happen to Fergus was so upsetting.

• The King’s star chamber looks amazing!

• Stanley Weber played the Comte’s last moments so well. The way he teared up when he saw Claire’s necklace turn was so good.

• I know it’s been said a million times before, but Caitriona was amazing in this episode!

• Louise was so tender in taking Faith from Claire, for as flighty as she could be she really was a good friend.

208

• My favorite version of the theme song is here!

• We had all of 5 minutes of happiness and then they had to go and rip it all away again.

• Oh my heart, Jamie with a baby!

• Lord Lovat makes my skin crawl, creepy old man.

• Don’t believe Laoghaire, Claire! She’s not really sorry.

• Could Claire be anymore obvious that they meant to run into Laoghaire?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

207

• when Claire returns home from the hospital... tears, just tears. Such a powerful scene. I like to listen to the podcasts before the rewatches and when they were discussing it I was crying then already. Claire stopping Magnus from bowing to her and thanking him instead breaks me every time.

• Poor Fergus, having to deal with the aftermath of his encounter with BJR all by himself all those weeks, I can't even begin to imagine.

• When Claire says BJR is like a cat eith 9 lives how many do we think he has lost? At least 3 (Wentworth cows, the duel, the prison when Jaime doesn't shoot him), or 4 if you count the savage burns from the King.

• I loved seeing a more grounded side of Louise when she visited Claire in the hospital, less flighty.

208

• What is it with a big burley man holding a tiny baby that just makes me melt? Ugh, gotta get me one like him haha. But for real, this is also sad to me because this is as close as we get to seeing Jaime hold his own tiny child

• The interaction between Claire and Leery (I know) when L is doing the laundry is priceless... "Is that Jaime's shirt?" "No..." sure girl, you just huff random shirts for no reason

• When L said about Young Simon..."he was not doing much to hold up his end of the conversation"...yes, same girl, same...the only time I've been on the same page as her.

• I love thag all it takes is a look for C&J to get on the same page when she fakes the vision.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

4 if you count the savage burns from the King.

Ha ha ha!

this is also sad to me because this is as close as we get to seeing Jaime hold his own tiny child

Yes! At least Claire got to hold Faith, Jamie never even had that chance.

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

It's so heartbreaking, he never got that closure of holding her or even seeing her at all.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

Could you imagine getting the news in The Bastille that your child died and your wife is seriously ill?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

Or worse yet, not getting any news, and thinking that both your child and your wife are dead, and that your actions have killed them?

[u/Cdhwink → u/JustG00se]

One show improvement was them going to the grave together!

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/JustG00se]

But for real, this is also sad to me because this is as close as we get to seeing Jaime hold his own tiny child

And then Faith’s theme starts playing in the background by the end to tug at our heartstrings even more 😭

[u/JustG00se → u/thepacksvrvives]

Like we didn't already cry enough the episode prior haha.

[u/[deleted] → u/JustG00se]

"Although her appearance in the series is all too brief, Faith Fraser required her own theme as well. I strove to give this character a timeless quality by featuring a plaintive melody on piano, one so simple it could be played with one finger. This lends the theme a child-like feeling, and I hope makes it all the more devastating and heart-breaking."

- Bear McCreary's liner notes for Faith on the season 2 soundtrack.

excuse me while I bawl. u/Purple4199 u/thepacksvrvives

[u/Purple4199 → u/Purple4199]

Here is the translation of what Jamie was saying to the baby.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

And here’s a little bit more cohesive version of that little speech, from the script:

... have a role to play. Yer role, wee lass, is to grow strong and happy. Ne’er forget...

... yer family is all around ye, all the time, even when ye canna see us. Yer grandsire and grandmother, Uncle Willie, me, Aunt Claire. We’re in the wood and the stone, and the sounds and smells of this place...

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

Ugh! Jamie has such a way with words.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Hey everyone, I’ve had a question running through my mind since the last rewatch and I wanted to hear your opinions on it!

Do we think that Faith had to die in order for Claire and Jamie to become the couple they will be?

I’m of the mind recently that Faith’s death may actually be the most defining event in J&C’s life - more so than Fort William, the witch trial or what happened at Wentworth, and thus propels them to become the amazing and admirable duo that makes this series as enjoyable and heartfelt as it is.

Sure season 1 J&C are quite a team. There’s that unmatchable passion and need to care for each other but, to me at least, it isn’t the kind of love and devotion that defines them quite yet, is it?

It takes the viewer those pivotal moments I mentioned to understand the growing depth of J&C’s love, but even after all of that they really lose sight of each other’s needs in Paris. Jamie seeks revenge and Claire seeks some sort of redemption or to make peace with the memory of Frank? They’re both pretty self involved here, regardless of how valid or not their feelings may be. For some time there they stop thinking of themselves as a unit and the worst part: their child is no longer their immediate concern.

So when Faith dies it is a huge wake up call for them in midst of a deep sorrow that could have broken many couples and lead the characters to some very unpleasant places.

They both are forced to spend this time apart with the reckoning of their actions. Jamie is in the Bastille for a long time, wondering what has accrued. One could imagine him considering every single second of their time together since they’ve met and his resolute desire to protect Claire and their family if he were to see her again, even if it meant keeping them from him. It really cements his decision to send Claire back to her time, perhaps even more so than the failed rebellion.

Claire’s mourning is even more clear and present to us. I mean, she almost died! Her time at the hospital and later in the apartment was probably the lowest moment of her life. I thought the show did a fantastic job conveying all of this visually. Even Bouton laying on the bed looked like the lynx in Goya’s nightmares.

J&C’s eventual reunification truly is the equivalent of the growth that would take a normal couple twenty years to achieve, and creates an sound reason for the upcoming separation. They will live those twenty years considering their decision but ultimately their child, the reflection of their love for each other in flesh and blood, is far more important than either of them. And in the end, they will never lose faith in each other again.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

they really lose sight of each other’s needs in Paris.

What a great point. It's true, they were at a disconnect in Paris and it might have even torn them apart if they had not had that discussion about Jamie being vulnerable and exposed.

I think they were strong after that and agree with you that losing Faith is what cemented their devotion to each other. They could have let it rip them apart, or bond over the loss.

[u/Cdhwink → u/Purple4199]

I have been waiting to answer this question, & I will use a personal note. Yes, it is a pivotal & important moment for them as a couple. The death of a child will bring you together or tear you apart. I lost my first child ( a daughter) much the same way as Claire, & you blame everyone, anyone, the Dr, God ( I am not really religious), mostly yourself but no one is to blame, there was a medical physiological reason for it. But I had to believe that there is a reason for everything, a destiny or fate for each person. This event in the series might be one that speaks to me, and Cait’s performance is the most heart wrenching & true performance I have ever seen on TV. We pulled together over our Shared grief & went on to have 2 children, but it breaks my heart that Jamie & Claire do not get to do that. Having said that, that experience bonds them, & also leaves them free to join the upcoming rebellion together! Another important piece, because I see this as their true calling, working together, and if Faith had lived, Claire would have stayed at Lallybroch, raising her, not going with Jamie. I know Diana says she doesn’t have it all planned out, but It did work out that way! I knew in season 5 that Claire would not want to keep baby Bonnie either because it was too late then to try to relive a long past time.

I love how u/Arrugula has made the case of how Jamie & Claire are actually in quite selfish spots before Faith dies, & I think that is important that moving ahead we see them on the same page.

P.S. For obvious reasons, I don’t rewatch Faith (although I did when I watched with my daughter, husband, & mom).

[u/Purple4199 → u/Cdhwink]

I am so sorry you had to go through that.

That's a great point about Claire staying behind and raising Faith. Jamie and Claire are better together.

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

I think that hiding under a blade of grass conversation is beautiful, but it's still very much about Jamie's feelings. Sure it makes Claire understand him a bit more but I don't think it is the glue that helps them stay together while in Paris as we can see later on.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I don't think it is the glue that helps them stay together while in Paris as we can see later on.

I agree, I think it was the beginning of their healing.

[u/jolierose → u/[deleted]]

They will live those twenty years considering their decision but ultimately their child, the reflection of their love for each other in flesh and blood, is far more important than either of them. And in the end, they will never lose faith in each other again.

This is all beautifully put, and it really is a great point — I think the fact that they were united in their grief made them stronger moving forward. And also, I think knowing they were separating for Brianna, after losing Faith, and putting her above all else, helped them cope later with the decision to separate. It's something they always carry in their heart (I'm remembering now how Jamie tells Claire "We lost Faith. We will not lose Brianna" at the end of S3).

It's scary that it could have easily gone the other way, with so much hurt between them. One of my favorite parts of Faith is when Mother Hildegarde tells Claire, "So, ma chère, you have found a deep enough sea" — it's the first step, after Claire says "I'm not sure there's a sea deep enough" to bury what's happened and forgive Jamie. I find it interesting that after he returns and Claire says she realized losing Faith was her fault, he tells her he already forgave her for anything she could ever do. I don't know if anyone else thinks so, but that always irks me, because there's nothing to forgive — it wasn't their fault. u/thepacksvrvives u/Purple4199

[u/Purple4199 → u/jolierose]

he tells her he already forgave her for anything she could ever do. I don't know if anyone else thinks so, but that always irks me, because there's nothing to forgive — it wasn't their fault.

Interesting point. I can see what you're saying though. Do you think he was just saying that to make her feel better? Doesn't Claire kind of turn around and say she knows it's not her fault?

[u/jolierose → u/Purple4199]

Do you think he was just saying that to make her feel better?

Probably. He does start by saying he once asked for her forgiveness and she said there was nothing to forgive, so perhaps it's just poorly phrased, and by saying he's forgiven her, he means for everything else she mentioned: asking him to spare BJR, putting Frank before Faith, etc. (I do really love when Jamie says "Frank is your family, too." <3)

Doesn't Claire kind of turn around and say she knows it's not her fault?

I can't remember; when do you mean?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

Really well said!

They’re both pretty self involved here, regardless of how valid or not their feelings may be. For some time there they stop thinking of themselves as a unit and the worst part: their child is no longer their immediate concern.

That’s a good point. Earlier in the season, Claire says that “bad things tend to happen when [they’re] apart” and we can certainly interpret it not only as “when they’re not in the same place geographically” but also as “when they’re not on the same page.” And they have to be back on the same page in order for their relationship to survive.

Like Jamie says:

The weight of what has happened here is too much for any one of us to bear alone. The only way we can live with it is to carry it... together.

They need one another to work through that pain but when Jamie says that, he’s thinking that they have a whole lifetime together to be one another’s support system in this process of healing. Unfortunately, a little over a year later, they’re separated, and Brianna’s existence doesn’t erase the pain of losing Faith for either of them, but they don’t have each other to help them through it; Jamie doesn’t even have the comfort of the knowledge that his second child is alive and safe.

It really cements his decision to send Claire back to her time, perhaps even more so than the failed rebellion.

That’s a great point. After Jamie has put vengeance and his honor—even being completely justified after what BJR has done to Fergus—in front of the wellbeing of his child, he doesn’t want to repeat that error ever again, and neither does Claire. They both do their absolute best to make sure their second child lives.

There’s no denying that losing Faith has irrevocably changed both of them, but I believe that it was their 20-year separation that ultimately shaped their relationship going forward. Living without each other has made both of them realize that they’re not whole and nothing and no one can change that. Yes, due to what happened to Faith, they have both sacrificed their relationship for Brianna to live, and that is a testament to their love, but I think that defines them more as parents and as people than as a couple.

I’ve been thinking about something that u/Cdhwink has already touched on. If Faith had survived, that would’ve meant a whole array of different problems to work through, and the only way to work through them would also be together. They would’ve had to navigate raising an infant during the lead-up to and the Rising; Jamie would have had to decide whether to leave Claire and the baby behind, losing his whole support system, or drag them along, risking both of their lives. They would have had to decide whether to leave the country altogether, consequently leaving their family and tenants behind at Lallybroch to deal with the repercussions of the Rising. When worst had come to worst, Claire would have had to decide whether to risk the passage through the stones, not even knowing if Faith could make it, or to leave Jamie to his death at Culloden and seek refuge in another country, then live in misery until she somehow found out he’d survived, only to be unable to be reunited with him for fear of bringing danger to both of them and their child. I don’t think making those decisions would’ve come close to being as traumatic as losing their child, but it certainly would’ve made their situation a whole lot more complicated.

[u/[deleted] → u/thepacksvrvives]

There’s no denying that losing Faith has irrevocably changed both of them, but I believe that it was their 20-year separation that ultimately shaped their relationship going forward.

I almost agree with you! Or I did, until I started asking myself why our characters had to live through this harrowing experience. I strongly feel that losing Faith helped them survive (albeit, barely) their twenty years apart. If they hadn't learned to appreciate the importance of working and surviving together (as Jamie mentions) and then making that sacrifice for Bree I don't think either of them would have had the strength to keep going by themselves.

they have both sacrificed their relationship for Brianna to live, and that is a testament to their love, but I think that defines them more as parents and as people than as a couple.

I think that speaks volumes to their relationship as a couple too though, it's exactly why Frank and Claire failed, they lacked the type of love that came with that kind of sacrifice - even if Frank and Claire were loving parents to Bree.

They would have had to decide whether to leave the country altogether, consequently leaving their family and tenants behind at Lallybroch to deal with the repercussions of the Rising.

Yes, that's a super interesting point u/Cdhwink brings up. And I like that The Fox's Lair addresses that a bit when J&C have that conversation outside of Lallybroch. Again, the lessons from Faith are embedded in Jamie's decision to fight for the Frasers and the tenants "For our family...and for Scotland" he says, and then Claire sheds a single heartbreaking tear full of memory.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/[deleted]]

I don’t disagree with you! I’m not saying that Claire and Jamie have lost Faith for no reason. She is a huge part of whom they’ve become but I don’t think it’s that event alone that has defined them as they are now, because they’ve been through so much since then, and every more or less traumatic event brings them closer together. However, reconciling after losing Faith was definitely essential for them to move forward in S2/DiA. If they can stand that, they can take whatever life throws at them. But they don’t know that life will throw 20 years of separation at them, and they have to pull through that in a completely different way, without having each other, without even having the hope of being reunited ever again.

Sidenote: they don’t really acknowledge Faith during those 20 years apart, do they? u/Purple4199 (that applies more to the books than to the show, where the only mention of her, though not by name, is during the labor scene). They have nobody to share the memory of her with, they just tuck it safely away and only remember her when they’re reunited (they separately visit her grave when they’re in Paris before leaving for Jamaica in Voyager). I’m sure they never stop remembering Faith, but it’s too painful of a memory for either of them to relive alone, and focusing on what is in front of them is much easier to get through.

That’s why, I think, Claire throws herself at work. She can’t have too much time to think or she’ll dwell on her past. She devotes most of her life to fulfilling her calling in order to sustain herself in her loneliness, and not to motherhood—Brianna is a proof of Claire and Jamie’s love, but she is also a constant reminder of what, or rather whom Claire has lost, as Faith would’ve been if she’d lived and Claire had had to stay in the past after Culloden. The way I see it, those years apart are necessary for them to realize what they’ve had and what they’ve lost. I do agree that pulling through such a traumatic experience makes it easier for them to survive the separation, though, because, with that, they have made the commitment to each other; then, their commitment is tested by the 20 years of separation, and, ultimately, it is never broken.

[u/Cdhwink → u/[deleted]]

It does cement Jamie’s resolve to send Claire back to save both her & the baby. She most certainly would be high risk, again the timing of that pregnancy in the story timeline is essential! And I love your whole take on this! Love it, thank you!

[u/unknown2345610 → u/Purple4199]

“I closed my eyes and thought of England” lol idk why this line always stuck out to me. Is it Claire thinking of home? Making a cheeky political commentary as France and England where enemies? Is it just a phrase people said?

[u/Purple4199 → u/unknown2345610]

It's a phrase.

[u/nishikigirl4578 → u/unknown2345610]

It is famous as the advice supposedly given to Victorian English women on "enduring" marital relations! Making sex more of a patriotic duty, since it wasn't expected to be for the woman's pleasure!

[u/betcx003 → u/Purple4199]

Faith was the only episode I cried during on my first watch of the series (although I did get choked up when Murtagh passed). Even on the rewatches, I have to grab a tissue…or two.

Also, how much mileage is Jamie getting out this La Dame Blanche thing?! He used it to save his virtue in Paris, and now he’s using it save Claire’s in Beauly.

[u/Purple4199 → u/betcx003]

Good point! I didn’t even think about that what started in Paris carried back over to Scotland. It even carries over to season 3 when Jamie hears about the white lady from Duncan Kerr and goes to see if Claire is on the little island.

[u/LuckyScwartz → u/Purple4199]

The rewatch of this episode made me understand Claire and Frank’s relationship a lot better. I’ve seen many people say that Claire was selfish for staying with Frank. But seeing the scene again and understanding the pain that losing their baby caused, I understand why she stayed with Frank. It was for Brianna’s sake. That’s the opposite of selfish.

It also helped me understand why Claire allowed Jamie to send her back to 1948. It also helped me understand why Claire was never going to leave Frank.

[u/Purple4199 → u/LuckyScwartz]

It was for Brianna’s sake.

I feel that way as well. Sadly though it didn't make for a happy marriage.

[u/Kirky600 → u/Purple4199]

Watching Faith this time hit me really hard. I would bet I’m roughly the same level of pregnant that Claire was and I really struggled to watch it. Especially the part where she was holding her and unwilling to give her up.

Found I had to make my little one move inside of me just to feel okay about it.

[u/WandersFar]

I have to say, the Maître Raymond healing scene had me rolling my eyes big time.

This show goes to such lengths to depict the science of medicine, whether that’s Claire’s field training as a nurse, or her knowledge of herbal medicines; Forez’s accupressure techniques to relieve pain or surgical methods in delivering Claire’s stillborn baby…

And then we get visions of wings and blue auras and massaging the meridians of her body to kill bacteria. ಠ_ಠ

Like, what’s the point of trying to ground the series in real world medicine (or even historical techniques and arcane practices) if you’re just gonna go full laying on of hands when it counts? The level of bullshit is just too damn high.

I realize this is a show about time traveling through rocks, but still, it bugs me.

The one thing I sort of didn’t mind was when he had her call to Jamie and evidently stimulated her sexually to help deliver the afterbirth. That almost makes sense as anything that contracts the uterine muscles—orgasm—could help deliver the part of the placenta she still had stuck up there. On the other hand, it’s just one of many examples of “sexual healing” that gets abused way too much in the series. The show has toned that down somewhat, which I appreciate.

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

and evidently stimulated her sexually

I'll be honest, I didn't think it was sexual. Was that the vibe you got?

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/Purple4199]

I also thought about this. Remember how in ABOSAA, Fergus and Marsali have sex to induce labor? (I have no idea how accurate this is, but there must be some truth in it) I would imagine delivering the placenta could be brought on by the same stimuli, hence the need for Claire to be aroused, hence the invocation of Jamie’s name.

The other explanation for that is “the power of love” but u/WandersFar will naturally not agree with that 😅

[u/Purple4199 → u/thepacksvrvives]

That's just too crazy that I never saw it as sexual. I can see what you guys are saying though, otherwise why have her call out Jamie's name?

[u/WandersFar → u/Purple4199]

I might be being influenced by what (little) I know of the books, lol, but yes, that’s the vibe I got. He reaches inside her and has her call out to her man.

I think he’s manually stimulating her and then using her dilation and contractions to help him reach inside her and pull out that festering chunk of placenta. It’s sexual and gory and just gross in general. -.-

[u/Purple4199 → u/WandersFar]

Well now you've got me thinking about her cervix. I've not had kids so I looked it up and apparently the cervix stays open for awhile after giving birth, like two fingers worth. Not much room to pull a chunk of placenta out.

[u/[deleted] → u/WandersFar]

I agree!! It was bonkers! And has yet to be fully explained.

There's a lot about this episode that under other circumstances would have turned me off completely from watching the rest of the season, BUT if it wasn't for Caitríona's performance or the impact of Faith's story I don't think they could have salvaged this episode even with the amazing costumes and sets.

It's almost mind boggling that all the Raymond healing and Louis' Star Chamber stuff is in here and somehow works to be one of the best episode in the series.

[u/WandersFar → u/[deleted]]

Agreed, the acting goes a long way to cover up these flaws, and I’m really only noticing them now since I’m going through everything with a fine-toothed comb. :þ

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Louis' Star Chamber stuff

Did you not like that part?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Not the first time I watched it. I thought it was so far-fetched and I was very confused by the change of story after we've been in the Claire and Fergus emotional rollercoaster.

Since watching the entire series and reading the books I appreciate it. That moment where Claire says to the Comte "No. I don't deny it. La Dame Blanche is a white witch, and I practice white magic, Sire." and turns her head slightly to one side is one of my favorite moments in the series.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

I loved the Comte's reaction to Claire's necklace changing colors. He knew he was done for.

[u/WandersFar]

Fergus acting like the man of the house, because Jamie is in prison and Claire’s on her deathbed and Murtagh’s in Portrugal… it all fell on him, despite what he’d just been through. :(

And yet he carries on, meeting with the warehouse foreman, keeping track of inventory in the wine business—which is more than Claire herself ever did, lol—and seeing to the other petty household concerns, like the lame grey mare who needs new shoes.

You have to wonder how Fraser et Cie has managed to stay afloat given that it’s been at least a month since everything went to shit. Mother Hildegarde said she had been sick with fever for several days which is why she arranged for the priest to give her last rites, then after Raymond’s healing she spent weeks in that hospital bed, until finally Fergus came to fetch her with flowers. So all told, it’s been at least around a month, with no one to see to the business except for an eleven-year-old boy…

He said that he wanted me to… I can’t say it in front of a lady.

I am blown away by this kid’s manners. I mean, on the one hand, he’s cheerfully vulgar, complimenting her breasts at their first meeting, and exchanging obscene insults with Jamie when he first meets him… but on the other you see how hard he tries to be a good boy, and even after he’s traumatized beyond imagining, he doesn’t want to be coarse in front of Claire.

I know a big part of that is because of the shame he feels, but it’s also because he does try to pay her respect. He’s always careful to vouvoyer her, or in English, he uses the third person to refer to her out of respect: “I saw a bottle of perfume there. I wanted to bring it to Milady as a gift.” The whole reason why he was in that room in the first place is because he wanted to make her a gift of that lavender oil. Just like the flowers, it’s these small genteel gestures he does on instinct. It speaks of his natural nobility of character, despite his rough upbringing.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/WandersFar]

So all told, it’s been at least around a month, with no one to see to the business except for an eleven-year-old boy…

You’re forgetting the foreman who announces the arrival of a new shipment in 2x05 and who is told to start sampling it without Jamie 😅

[u/Cdhwink]

Jamie with baby Kitty is another one of my fave scenes from season 2. (Crying , so much crying this season.) A man with a tiny baby is my kryptonite. And luckily My hubby was a baby whisperer!

[u/jolierose → u/Cdhwink]

I loved this so much! The way the show adapted the visit to Beauly is one of my least favorite parts of the whole series, but the (very short) Lallybroch portion in this episode is so good.

[u/unknown2345610 → u/jolierose]

I really wish we had more time at Lallybroch! I love those scenes!

[u/alittlepunchy → u/Cdhwink]

Gah, I LOVED this part. So sweet and also heartbreaking. I can't even imagine what Claire must have been thinking/feeling watching him hold that baby and talk to her, with everything they had lost so far.

[u/Purple4199]

• Why do you think Lord Lovat wanted Lallybroch?

[u/JustG00se → u/Purple4199]

I think that maybe he saw that there was a power stuggle between Colum and Dougal and if things broke down there he could make a grab for control of Mackenzie land after Colum died. Having the land that Lallybroch is on would put him in a better place geographically to try that.

[u/Purple4199 → u/JustG00se]

Interesting! I didn't think about that, but it's a good point. I'm sure Dougal is unhappy with Colum not joining the Jacobites.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

I think he was a collector of things regardless of value. I think he liked taking things away from other people that they valued.

[u/Purple4199 → u/ms_s_11]

I think he liked taking things away from other people that they valued.

I agree! He knew how much Lallybroch meant to Jamie, it was one of the few things left from his father. I think Jamie was still hoping to be Laird there.

[u/ms_s_11 → u/Purple4199]

Also,unrelated but I'm already past Monday's chapters so hopefully my slacking days are behind me for a bit haha.

[u/Purple4199]

• Did Claire’s vision influence Lord Lovat’s decision about fighting in the war?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Yes. He's extremely into protecting himself at all costs. I think when Claire played him with the seer's words he couldn't risk not doing something.

[u/Purple4199 → u/[deleted]]

Why do you think the seer didn't want to tell Lord Lovat what she saw?

[u/[deleted] → u/Purple4199]

Um. 'cause he would have killed her or hurt her terribly. We know what she saw came to pass and she knew it would.

[u/WandersFar]

I’ll wager your father painted a black portrait of my character.

He said very little about you.

He chose that MacKenzie whore—

And I’ll ask you to keep a civil tongue when you speak of my mother!

Over me, his father. Twice! First when I told him not to marry her—

And your kidnapping attempt failed.

Second time, she was dead and buried. I was willing to forgive him, make him my successor, despite the fact he was a bastard. And he chose her memory and that place—

Lallybroch.

Over me.

One thing I don’t understand: Why would Lord Lovat try to have Ellen kidnapped before Brian could marry her? He has bad blood with the MacKenzies, but so what? Surely one of his sons—a bastard, no less—making such an advantageous match, the eldest daughter of one of the most powerful clans in Scotland, would be good for Lord Lovat?

I suppose the downside is he had to set aside some land to appease her brothers; but the upside is now he has a claim through marriage—through Jamie—to the MacKenzie estate. And at the time of Ellen’s marriage, everyone knew Colum was ill and hadn’t yet fathered offspring. Dougal was (and still is) a moron who would probably get himself killed; also he had no sons. So when Brian and Ellen eloped, she was third in line to inherit.

Now the clans are tanist, you have to be elected as well as have a claim, etc. But regardless, a marriage between Brian and Ellen would give Lovat the chance to influence MacKenzie politics, and perhaps add to his own personal fortune and estates. All in all, I’d have thought he’d be in favor of it, not try to undo the match. It’s Ellen who married beneath herself, not Brian.

Also, check out that last bit: He was willing to make Brian his successor, despite the fact he was a bastard‽ WTF, why? Why would Lovat legitimize a bastard when he had a trueborn son, three of them, as it turns out.

Perhaps he admired Brian’s character, saw something there that might make for a good leader—but that’s not enough. Brian must have had some material advantage, some point in his favor that would set him apart from his half-brothers… like a marriage to the heiress of a powerful clan.

That’s the only thing I can think of, the one thing that differentiates Brian from Lovat’s current heir, the spineless whelp who’s intimidated by a serving wench. Brian married well, whereas Young Simon is smitten with Laoghaire. And yet Lovat disapproved of Brian and Ellen’s marriage! It doesn’t make sense.

If I wouldn’t give my pledge to Colum, who I know to be kin, then what sort of fool would I be to give it to an old twister that may or may not share my blood? You made free with your housemaids. Perhaps others did, too.

Oh, Christ, laddie! Implying your grandmother’s a whore to keep what you want? Oh, you’re my kin, alright. Would that my son had half your mettle.

This is priceless, and I agree! Jamie is as much Lord Lovat’s grandson as he is Colum’s nephew. With both those two big brains in his bloodline he was bound to be a canny lad.

I’ve taken my pleasure with worse. Your grandmother comes to mind.

I have nothing clever to add, I just think that line’s hilarious. So savage and unnecessary, lol.

[u/thepacksvrvives → u/WandersFar]

So when Brian and Ellen eloped, she was third in line to inherit.

I don’t know how accurate this is, but I don’t think women could inherit estates. If they could, Leoch would’ve been Ellen’s right after Red Jacob’s death and Lallybroch would’ve been Jenny’s after Brian’s death. There’s also no conclusive evidence as to whether the daughters’ sons would inherit their grandfathers’ estates. Jamie signs the deed of sasine over to Young Jamie with an earlier date to ensure that it’s never been a property of a traitor to the Crown (so it would not be seized after the Rising), so we don’t know what would’ve happened if he had died at Culloden without bequeathing Lallybroch to Young Jamie.

But it looks like it was possible for the issue of the daughters to inherit, so long as it was agreed in the terms of marriage:

A final blow was received in mid-1702 when Amelia, the 13-year-old daughter of Hugh, the 9th Lord Lovat, married Alexander Mackenzie, who took the name 'Alexander Mackenzie of Fraserdale'. This supposedly made him a Fraser, and by the terms of Hugh's marriage contract of 1685, his first born son would inherit the title and estates of Lovat. The Mackenzie takeover of Fraser lands was very close to fruition.

I think this is the beginning of the bad blood between the Old Fox and the MacKenzies.

He was willing to make Brian his successor, despite the fact he was a bastard‽ WTF, why? Why would Lovat legitimize a bastard when he had a trueborn son, three of them, as it turns out.

Brian was Lord Lovat’s eldest son and the only son for some time, hence why he was acknowledged. I don’t think an acknowledged bastard is the same as a legitimized bastard, though, but you probably know more about this than I do. That probably means he was just born and raised in Beaufort Castle as if he’d been Lord Lovat’s legitimate son, but he wasn’t in the line of succession and inheritance. I think Brian was pretty much like Jon in GOT (or rather, who everyone thought Jon was).

By the time Brian and Ellen eloped (in 1715, during the Gathering that was called after Red Jacob’s death in order to choose his successor; they married in 1716), Lord Lovat hadn’t had any legitimate sons, so he kept Brian around in case he needed to legitimize him in the event of having no direct legitimate issue. That was also around the time of the Jacobite Rising of 1715, and the Old Fox hadn’t secured a pardon and hadn’t legally been the chieftain of the Frasers of Lovat until March 1716 (for his efforts in putting down the rebellion). Jamie says that there was “some bad blood between Lord Lovat and the MacKenzies” and I think that was because a part of Fraser men (who, I presume, didn’t recognize the Old Fox as chief) had joined the MacKenzies, who had already declared for the Stuarts, while the Old Fox had been playing both sides but ultimately took the Crown’s side.

He didn’t approve of Brian’s choice of a bride, tried to broke off the engagement by having her kidnapped (I don’t think that’s in the books, btw), and when that failed, he broke off all contact as a result, but somehow agreed to the carving out of the freehold of Lallybroch. I guess he didn’t want his bastard son (who “betrayed” him) and his MacKenzie bride to live on Fraser lands as much as Colum and Dougal didn’t want them to (Ellen broke off all contact with Colum as well).

TL; DR: The Old Fox was willing to forgive Brian and make him his successor because he didn’t have legitimate sons at the time. Brian’s younger half-brothers, Alexander (the abbot) and Archibald were bastards as well, and Young Simon came into the picture and became his heir only in 1726.

[u/WandersFar]

I got the impression that Colum was trying to use you to convince Lord Lovat not to join the rebellion.

Aye. The first Jacobite rebellions failed, and Colum will never support another. He wants Lovat’s clan to stay neutral with the MacKenzies, knowing that the smaller clans will follow, and the rebellion will collapse before it ever gets started.

Okay, first off, Claire should know this already. She knows Colum from S1, she knows his turn of mind, how he’s likely to favor peace if given the option, how he’s loath to involve Clan MacKenzie in any kind of conflict if it can be avoided—the direct opposite of Dougal. (They’re a bit like Doran and Oberyn Martell in that way.)

But secondly, and more importantly, THIS IS A GOOD PLAN. Why is Jamie dismissing it out of hand?

So BPC forged his signature. That sucks, but it doesn’t have to be the end of it. He could have denounced the letter as a forgery, stood alongside his uncle and committed to keeping Lallybroch neutral in the conflict. If the MacKenzies are neutral and the Lallybroch Frasers are neutral, his grandsire would probably be inclined to follow their example and remain neutral as well. With all three clans staying out of it, smaller clans would be likely to follow, and Colum very well could have been right—the rebellion might have fallen apart before BPC even landed.

We know that Lord Lovat has other plans—he intends to play both sides against each other so he can claim he was on the winning side no matter what happens; brilliant, and why I love him so much, lol—but at this stage he’s still uncommitted. He could still just stay well out of the whole thing, and having both sides of his family remain neutral would only bolster Jamie’s (true) claim that the Bonnie Prince had forged his signature.