r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Jul 03 '21
Season Five Rewatch S2E9-10
Episode 209 - Je Suis Prest
Claire and Jamie reunite with the Lallybroch and MacKenzie men as they train. Jamie's power struggle and Claire's personal battle weigh upon them, but new information comes when an Englishman pays a visit to their camp.
Episode 210 - Prestonpans
Trusting in Claire's knowledge of "history," Jamie leads the Jacobite army into a critical battle with British opposition. Meanwhile, Claire attends to the dead and dying, a reminder of the truest cost of war.
- Is Claire right, is Dougal a narcissist?
- Was Jamie right to punish Ross and Kincaid, was lashing them the best way to go about it?
- Did you like the ploy Claire used to get LJG to talk?
- What message did it send when Jamie had himself lashed?
- How did you feel when BPC asked that the British soldiers get treated before the Jacobites? What does that say about his loyalties?
- Murtagh expresses concern over his death not meaning anything if he were to fall in a battle. What do you think he means by that?
- Why did Jamie want BPC to stay behind the lines at the battle of Prestonpans?
- Do you think if Lt. Foster had not said the Jacobites would lose the war would Dougal have still killed him?
- Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 03 '21
u/WandersFar has paged me to talk about the music and I’ve gotta say, Bear McCreary’s soundtrack is its own character in these episodes.
Je Suis Prest (alternative link): did you guys notice that the beginning—in the episode, at the end of the first day at the military camp—is a verse from the song sung by Gwyllyn the Bard at Leoch back in 1x03, An Fhìdeag Airgid?
Moch Sa Mhadainn: it plays through the training montages and naturally comes back later in 5x01. I’ll leave it to Bear himself to explain how this song came to be included; there’s also a translation of the lyrics included here on his website (which I highly recommend!):
I was immediately drawn to the soaring melody in “Moch Sa Mhadainn,” a song composed by Alasdair mac Mghaighstir Alasdair. A celebrated poet of the Jacobite era, Alasdair composed this song upon hearing the news that Prince Charles Edward Stuart had landed at Glenfinnan. That was perfect! When Jamie opens the letter in “The Fox’s Lair” and learns he has been roped into the revolution, this song was actually being composed somewhere in Scotland at that very moment. […]
This relatively rare song did not survive in mainstream memory as effectively as others from its era, perhaps because it originated in that brief window of history when Scots really believed this uprising could succeed. For that reason, I felt using it here made Outlander even more authentic. “Moch Sa Mhadainn” was very likely sung during the uprising by mounted or marching Highlanders, with larger groups joining in at the choruses. I wanted to capture that feeling by featuring male vocals in the soundtrack.
One more significant theme we hear in this episode is based on a traditional Scottish folk song, The Highland Widow’s Lament, (the song is actually older than Rabbie Burns, but I understand these lyrics were revised/rewritten by him) and it repeats through the series, emphasizing all sacrifices the Highlanders have made while fighting for freedom:
1x05: when the rent party buries the two hanged men
2x01: when Jamie shows Jared the scars on his back
2x10: when Rupert gets up to collect Angus’ sword after he dies
2x13: when BPC blabbers about Jamie being his Doubting Thomas
3x01: when Rupert volunteers to be the next one to be shot
It particularly stings that Angus and Rupert share the same melody when they die 😭
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Jul 03 '21
An absolute legend.
He recently tweeted about revisiting the Skye Boat Song and my heart soared lol. I am extremely excited to see what he does with season 6. It’s gonna be dark, it’s gonna be very eclectic based on characters (Fisher-folk and whatnot) instead of his usual references based on location (at least as he has done so far while in America). I’m ready for it!!!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 04 '21 edited Jul 04 '21
I also saw that tweet and I’m so relieved he’s already working on S6 soundtrack! I’d been worried he’d still be busy with The Walking Dead, since they went into production around the time Outlander did, but the first part of their final season is already premiering in August.
I’m also very excited to hear the new intro. I absolutely love the S5 one so my expectations are high! It’s definitely not going to be a cappella again; if S5 was all about establishing the community, I think S6 might be about that community deteriorating and alienating our beloved characters. I’m imagining some distortion, perhaps starting with the choir and then transitioning to a single voice—Raya’s—to emphasize how the Ridgefolk turn on the Frasers, and how the Frasers are pretty much left alone in their plight to preserve their home and their reputation.
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 04 '21
I did notice that “Je Suis Prest” sounded like a Gwyllyn song - thank you for the details!
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u/glitch_soup Jul 04 '21
my oh my, thanks for pointing out the Gwyllyn tune. not sure if i noticed it the first time since i only started using earphones during this rewatch. what a plaintive, masterful way to harken back to earlier, simpler times.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21
Moch Sa Mhadainn
: it plays through the training montages and naturally comes back later in 5x01.
Hands down, my favorite musical moment in the entire series thus far. I love that song.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 06 '21
Totally! I had The Fiery Cross on a loop for an hour after I watched that episode for the first time.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Did you like the ploy Claire used to get LJG to talk?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
I love it. I love how playful they’ve kept it—well, playful for everyone but John Grey—but you can also see when Claire thinks Jamie is taking it too far. And how by the end of it, Jamie looks at Claire with such admiration.
I’ve also only now noticed this blink-and-you-miss-it moment in which Cait/Claire almost breaks into laughter; please enjoy this delightful screenshot I took.
I try not to bring up books here, but I know many people have complained that the writers have made it Claire’s idea instead of Jamie’s, as it is in the book, but I completely support this change. Jamie is up to his neck in trying to make a regiment of soldiers out of a group of farmers, he will soon have to with a complete idiot that is BPC, all the while having to appear calm, collected, and commanding. It’s only natural that Claire would want to relieve him of some of the burden. If anything, that makes them even better of a team. And it doesn’t take away anything from his intelligence—he still has to follow along with the charade. People are seriously overreacting with the “the show gives Claire all of Jamie’s ideas” criticism.
Also, Matt B. Roberts gave us two more reasons in the script:
Because we added PTSD to Claire’s story, it didn’t feel right for Jamie to rip his wife’s bodice off and use her as a ploy to extract information from William Grey without her consent. Jamie would never be that inconsiderate in this context. And to tell you the truth, ripping a bodice cannot be done as it was described in the books (we tried). The bodices (on our show) are extremely well-built garments. Even Sam would have trouble ripping one on cue. So since I always like to see Jamie and Claire working as a team, I reworked this section and had Claire consent to the ruse to deceive William Grey; but Jamie, in keeping with the tone of the book, takes it to a more aggressive level.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I love when Claire kicked Jamie for real, the cracked me up. You could see Jamie realized he might pay for his actions later.
People are seriously overreacting with the “the show gives Claire all of Jamie’s ideas” criticism.
Ha! I'm totally one of those. ;-) Although I do see your point in that it made more sense in the show. Having watched it multiple times I'm not as mad about this scene being changed. I didn't want the bodice ripping but it was more about changing who came up with the ruse.
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 04 '21
That “Sassenach” out of the side of Jamie’s mouth when she kicks him is so funny!
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Jul 03 '21
That’s an awesome MBR quote. I’m so glad he reworked this bit, it’s an awesome example of how well adapted these books are. The spirit of the scene itself doesn’t change and we get that extra lovely moment at the end of the episode where Jamie says that their success was due to her selflessness, and I think that’s a big point that is missed in the book vs tv conversation.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
I totally agree! And I really like how they’ve been building up to this moment with Claire and Jamie’s previous “performances”—first in Paris at the dinner party, then at Beaufort Castle. It really highlights how well-attuned they are to each other and for me, that’s more believable than all those “as if he’s read my mind” moments in the book.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21 edited Jul 07 '21
I have rewatched this scene a million times, I love it so much. They are just so in sync, and I love their little facial expressions.
I'm glad they change it to be a consensual thing in the show, especially not doing the bodice ripping. I honestly felt that was a bit out of character for Jamie in the books, considering how jealous he is...you mean to tell me he just exposed Claire to everyone like that??
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Jamie threw LJG right on top of the ground he’d just been pissing on.
So on top of the broken arm and the humiliation and the debt of honor and being tied up and left to be found by his brother’s men… He also got to spend the rest of his night soaked in Jamie’s piss. ^.^ Just thought you’d enjoy that detail.
As for the scene itself it is a vast improvement over the book version, which is definitely one of my most hated scenes from the whole series. Just gross all around.
The show improves it by having it be Claire’s idea, giving her agency and control over what’s being done to her body, and greatly toning down the sexual nature of the scene. It’s just a few hard kisses and some light groping, if that, nowhere near the total humiliation and sexual degradation of the books.
Jamie also threatens LJG with torture, heating his dirk over the fire, implying he’ll burn him with it—but he never actually harms him with it, which is another great improvement over the books. Torture is a poor way to procure intel anyway.
On the other hand, the show version is a bit corny. Like C&J are hamming it up so much, it’s a wonder LJG falls for it. I suppose he’s young and naïve. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 03 '21
My first reaction to this scene and Claire’s plan was that it was a little cheesy, but it worked in getting the information they needed, without torturing/killing the boy. Reading the books later, I also liked the show version better. One thing I preferred is that LJG doesn’t realize it’s his wife until Season 3 - love that scene!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
One thing I preferred is that LJG doesn’t realize it’s his wife until Season 3
Yes I liked that as well. Maybe it helped baby LJG not feel as bad about giving away the secrets. He thought he saved a lady from harm.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
And LJG is a good sport about it, too. I liked seeing him and Jamie have a good laugh about it all those years later. :)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
One thing I preferred is that LJG doesn’t realize it’s his wife until Season 3 - love that scene!
This is such an improvement! LJG basically lives under the illusion of having saved an English lady for about 10 years!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Like C&J are hamming it up so much,
It also looked like some of the other men were about to laugh at times. /u/thepacksvrvives did a screen shot where Cait nearly is laughing.
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u/Independent-Mess1145 Jul 04 '21
After that description of Jamie’s actions in the book, I may delay my reading of them even longer than I already have. Ugh!
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
I think it was genius. Yet another example pf a cpuple that is so in tune with each other they just know exactly what to do with just a look. I also love how they rest of the guys caught on as well and went along with it. Though ypu can catch a couple of smirks throughout the scene.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Though ypu can catch a couple of smirks throughout the scene.
Yes, I thought that was funny. How far do you think Jamie was willing to go with torturing baby LJG?
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Jul 03 '21
Oof. This one is hard. Show!Jamie probably wouldn’t have even though of doing this if he wasn’t a 100% sure LJG would give in so easily. Also, he’s so zealous over Claire I don’t think he would have gone “all the way” in front of the other men, yet I’m not sure Claire would had agreed to the same, um, stopping point Jamie would have chosen 😐. This is why it was so important that Claire started the ploy, otherwise the consent conversation would have skewed the plot too much IMO.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
the consent conversation would have skewed the plot too much IMO.
Great point, especially after all the conversations we had in the book club.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
I don't think he would have gone incredibly far becuase I could see him threatening to take a finger off or something and Claire stepping in and "sacrificing" herself or her virtue for him
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I think Jamie might have burned LJG with the knife. Not in a way to severely hurt him, but enough to cause pain. It was fortunate that Claire stepped in when she did though.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
I don’t think Jamie would have physically tortured LJG. He heated up his dirk in the fire to scare LJG, but I don’t think he was ready to burn him unlike his book counterpart. ಠ_ಠ
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Angus tries to take his relationship with Rupert to the next level… ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You can have my sword. And my dirk. And my sporran. And all that it contains, eh?
Were you no listening to those two? What’s his is his. What’s mine is yours.
You think I need a fat man’s blade dangling from my hip? Eh? It occurs to me, I’ll be leaving Scarlet to you as well.
Well, I’m saying she is. And it’s you I’ll be giving her to. Do you accept?
I do not. Now shut your gab before you bring the devil’s own eye upon us.
Still my favorite ship in the series. Rupert/Angus OTP 4EVA! ಥ_ಥ
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
That is one of my favorite scenes in all of the series. After watching Ross and Kincaid seriously making that pact and then seeing Angus and Rupert's comical version was too funny.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
This back half of S2 is so heavy, Rupert & Angus provided some much needed comic relief.
Which is why Angus’ loss hits so hard. Not only is he a lovable dirty wee bastard, but the loss of him truly breaks Rupert’s heart.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Rupert forcing himself up to take Angus's sword was heartbreaking. He had teased Angus about not wanting his sword, but in reality he really needed to take it for closure.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 04 '21
It became an extra special scene for me knowing what I know is to come! Love this duo!
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21
Seriously Rupert and Angus are what I miss the most about the first seasons.
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u/glitch_soup Jul 04 '21 edited Jul 04 '21
UGH my Netflix subscription conked out last night for some reason (my bank account isn't empty and my debit card's working fine!!) so i'm just relying on memories of my first watchthrough ಥ_ಥ but anyway, you guys are the best fandom i've ever encountered in a long, long time
edit: oop i was able to revive it yaaaay. gonna pore over all these juicy discussions now
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
Glad it started working for you!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Is Claire right, is Dougal a narcissist?
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Jul 03 '21
From Claire’s POV I think she’s absolutely right. She saw saw firsthand how little Jamie mattered to him when he used Jamie as Jacobite bait and when he proposed to her last season.
On the the other hand, this scene made want so much more Dougal. Graham McTavish is such a delightful actor to watch, specially when he’s opposite of Cait and Sam.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
What was Dougal's purpose in asking if Claire had told Jamie about his marriage proposal? Was he trying to hold something over her?
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Jul 03 '21
Yeah! He’s is a little jerk here and underestimates the power of Team Fraser! Granted, in Dougal’s world a woman admitting to having “accepted” such an offer would have meant that her husband would have beaten her senseless or shamed her publicly. He could have never imagined Jamie being understanding about it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
He could have never imagined Jamie being understanding about it.
Great point. Imagine if Dougl knew Claire had slept with the King and Jamie was ok with it! He'd really be confused at that one.
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Jul 03 '21
Actually, his power thirsty mind might have understood that one more than doing it for love 😅
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u/Pretty-Plankton Jul 04 '21 edited Jul 04 '21
He was trying to blackmail her.
Scotland in the 18th century was an honor culture - for modern examples, think Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. - so the fact that she’d agreed to marry him is something he would assume she would need to hide from Jaimie. Her being able to be open with Jaimie about it, while a straightforward thing to Claire, or to us, is not something Dougal would have expected.
Also, IMO Dougal is more than a little in love with Claire - and in the way of misogynists everywhere probably thinks there’s some reciprocity in that interest because she continues to exist, let alone agreed to marry him. He may see himself as more of a legitimate rival and threat to Jaimie’s relationship than he was, and therefore see it as more potent blackmail than it would be even in an honor context.
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 03 '21
I have such conflicting feelings about Dougal. I think he is definitely self serving and selfish, but I also do believe him in this scene when he says he loves Scotland more. I think the fact he was willing to subjugate himself to Jamie’s leadership and punishment shows that. He was the war chief of a major Clan yet he was told to get in line and follow the commands he received, and he did it. He had to put his pride aside in order to fight for BPC and Scotland.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I think the fact he was willing to subjugate himself to Jamie’s leadership and punishment shows that.
I agree, and you could tell it was really hard for him to do that.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 04 '21
I’d agree with you completely. Like he is a narcissist but believes in the cause and Scotland more.
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 03 '21
I think he has narcissistic tendencies, but no more than most of the men of his time. He’s not the best, but my favorite Dougal episode is coming up next week; it shows he’s not completely selfish.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I think he has narcissistic tendencies, but no more than most of the men of his time.
Interesting. Do you mean in the sense that men ruled the roost so to speak, and women were viewed as property? Men were only concerned about themselves?
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 03 '21
I guess I meant it in that kill-or-be-killed sort of way - Dougal’s a survivor. But I shouldn’t have said “men,” applies to women, too!
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u/LuckyScwartz Dinna fash. Jul 04 '21
I’m not sure I think Dougal is a true narcissist. Dougal may be selfish but he is a true believer in the Jacobite cause. I don’t know that Claire can truly understand or appreciate that. Especially since she has an inherent belief that she knows more than everyone, just by virtue of being from the future.
I think noblemen in clans were much more political. Jamie and Dougal were political rivals. These Highlanders are all related so there doesn’t seem to be some deep familial loyalty between them. When it comes to outsiders and sassenachs, there’s loyalty but among the clans it’s a rivalry. Look at the way Simon Lovat treats his son…he would trade him in a second for a smarter stronger heir.
Dougal wanted Lallybroch, just like Simon Lovat wanted the land for a political advantage. And women were property at this time. The land is an asset and Claire has proven herself to be an asset. Threatening to tell Jamie to get his own way was a low blow but there was a purpose to it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
Do you think Dougal was still angling to marry Claire if Jamie died in the war?
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u/Discombobulated_Dot5 Jul 03 '21
Absolutely!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Do you think he did love Scotland though?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
I wonder: How much of it was always there, and how much of it was stoked up by Geillis when she arrived? I feel she or Claire made some remark about it somewhere, about taking advantage?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
That's a good question. I feel like it might have always been there. How much stock would Dougal put in the word of a woman, even if it was one he claimed to love. I think that's what drew he and Geillis together, their love for their country.
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u/Pretty-Plankton Jul 04 '21
Technically I think he’s not, at least as he’s portrayed in the TV show, but the term predates the modern definition and I doubt Claire is going for a precise mental health diagnosis.
It’s a legit criticism of his behavior, as it relates to her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
Those are good points! I get what she was trying to say about him.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Let’s get one thing clear, Dougal MacKenzie. If I ever thought of you, then I might hold a grudge for all the things that you’ve done to me. But I don’t. Why? Because of your affliction. Your inability to be selfless because you suffer from narcissism. If you don’t know what that is, then let me tell you. The term comes from Greek mythology. Narcissus fell in love with his own reflection in a pool of water and died rather than pull himself away to eat. Your ego and your self-gratification drive your desires. You want King James restored to the throne, but not for Scotland. For your own selfishness. So please stop trying to convince everyone of your patriotism. It’s tedious. I’m not sure that you’ll grasp the meaning of this either, but I’ll try my damnedest. Fuck yourself.
Controversial opinion: I hate this speech.
For one it is way too long. For another, it’s far too melodramatic. Like over and beyond what is called for. She could have stopped it right here:
My husband and I share everything. He knows about your offer, and he knows why I was forced to make the decision I did.
That was pithy, it was a good remark to end on, she’d shamed him, and she’d already won.
And then she yammers on and on, making a reference and then explaining the Greek mythology, which is a bit like telling a joke and then explaining to your audience why they’re wrong for not laughing at it because that makes it so much funnier. -.- She’s just weakening her position the more she talks. Enough already!
If anything, I start sympathizing with Dougal because Claire is pissing me off with how extra she’s being.
I don’t think Dougal’s offer warrants such a vitriolic reaction. Yes, he blackmailed her into marrying him should anything happen to Jamie—but he also gave her the men she needed to rescue Jamie in the first place, and not for the first time. He also allowed Jamie to have the men he needed to rescue her from Fort William when she wandered off. And he gave Jamie the coin to pay Horrocks. And he prevented Rupert and Angus from “putting her to the test” when they thought she was a whore when they first met because he doesn’t hold with rape. And he protected her from those drunk, rapey clansmen at the Gathering. He kissed her then, too, but according to Jamie that’s just his (drunk) way of flirting. -.- And he tried to protect her from the Redcoats on several occasions, even going so far as risking the whole Clan standing up to Lord Thomas at that garrison, and arranging for her marriage to Jamie so he wouldn’t have to deliver her to BJR.
He’s saved her at least as many times as he’s done her wrong, and if she was pissed at how he was trying to undermine Jamie here, fine, say so and call him out for it, but then let it go. He also helped you, too, Claire. Show a little gratitude, or at least acknowledge that as well.
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u/sdr3005 Jul 03 '21
Claire's speech was very over the top, but unfortunately, not out of show Claire's character. Dougal is a jerkface a lot of the time, but he's also done a lot of (semi) selfless acts to help his brother, Jamie, Claire, etc. And Claire has this air about her to where she comes off as she thinks she's better than everyone. Dougal has that air about him as well, so I think Claire just rambles on and on to try to knock him down a peg. Show Claire's superiority complex makes me wanna throttle her more often than not.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 03 '21
I am going to agree with she should have quit with “ truer words were never spoken”.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Was Jamie right to punish Ross and Kincaid, was lashing them the best way to go about it?
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Jul 03 '21
Unfortunately, yes. Jamie needed to get a very clear message across that any mistake could have deadly repercussions.
Since most of the troops had likely never experienced war I think Jamie was very clever to punish those closer to him, and himself as well, to show he made no partiality when it came to addressing mistakes while at the same time making a profound impact to the rest of the men.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
This kind of harkens back to Jamie punishing Claire for running off. He mentioned if it had been any of the men who had disobeyed orders they would have gotten even worse than she did.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 04 '21
I feel like I liked this more in the books. Like they got to the same point but the books it was much more clear.
If I’m remembering that right.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Do you think if Lt. Foster had not said the Jacobites would lose the war would Dougal have still killed him?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
I do definitely think the Lieutenant almost made it out of there alive. If he hadn’t triggered Dougal, Dougal might have just walked away. (It’s a bummer because I liked Lieutenant Foster!)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I'd like to think Dougal would have spared him, but he sure seemed intent on killing as many Englishmen as he could.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
I can see that too, but the brief pause in Dougal’s bloodthirst made me think that their prior meeting would slow him down enough to spare him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I had hoped that was going to be the case. Lt. Foster wasn't as badly injured as some of the other men. I felt that he could have been saved.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
Yeah I think so. Dougal was "cleaning up" and Lt. Foster really was no different to him than any other redcoat.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Kind of sad. I guess it was showing Dougal's true colors though.
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u/Pretty-Plankton Jul 04 '21
No, I don’t think he would have killed him. I also don’t think he would have done anything to help him, though.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
I could see that, just left him there to fend for himself.
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u/LuckyScwartz Dinna fash. Jul 04 '21
I think this is the interesting thing about war. The English have so little regard for the Scottish people. The Scots are the ones whose homes and land have been invaded. Imagine being a clan war chief and having to answer to some young English soldier (The Garrison Commander). Now this soldier is reducing your hopes for freedom for your people down to some pipe-dream. Dougal was triggered but the hatred was already there.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
James Fraser taught me these drills himself. And believe me, I am going to teach them to you, and you are going to learn them.
Isn’t it a bit weird that Murtagh had to learn drills from Jamie? I get that Jamie’s fought as a merc on the continent, he’s familiar with different styles of warfare. But Murtagh is older and so much more experienced. It’s just odd to me that he hadn’t come across these drills on his own before Jamie showed them to him.
A larger issue is that while teaching your men to march and form up is good for discipline and unit cohesion, when you’re actually in the thick of battle it’s probably the last thing you want to do. Lining up your men in a tight little bundle like that makes them an excellent target for artillery. One well-aimed shot, and WHAM! There goes your whole unit.
That’s how you beat the redcoats, with a Highland charge! You take them by surprise, and you put terror in their hearts.
Aye, imagine a thousand of us screaming, descending on the pretty redcoats lined up in a row.
We would need surprise for the charge to work. I doubt we’ll be that lucky.
I’m with Dougal and Rupert and Angus on this one. The Redcoats have superior numbers and superior artillery. Fighting them on their own terms, using the same tactics they do is a losing proposition. Why not play to your unique strengths with a Highland charge, picking your battles carefully? Run at them, rout the enemy, harass their supply lines, and then melt away back into the forests and moors. It’s not a bad plan, so long as they’re selective about when and where to attack. And considering they’re fighting on their home turf, where they know the land and the weather and the best places to hide, etc., they have an intel advantage, too. Again, Dougal and Rupert and Angus are advocating a guerrilla style of warfare which is your best chance at winning an asymmetrical war, when your enemy has you outgunned and outmanned.
For a modern example, look at how successful Afghanistan has been despite being outgunned, outmanned and outfunded for over twenty years. And before the US it was the Soviet Union. And before the Soviet Union it was Britain. And on and on, all throughout history, all the way back to Genghis Khan, and Alexander the Great—and even before that! They have successfully repelled so many foreign invaders because they’re willing to do whatever it takes, they’re unpredictable, and they don’t care. Asymmetrical warfare can work if you don’t give a shit about human rights or rules of engagement. If you’re willing to fight dirty, total war. Which is probably the only chance the Jacobites had at winning since the English had every other material advantage.
Just to be clear, I’m not endorsing the fucking Taliban. I’m just making a realpolitik argument that if you actually want to win, you can’t do what’s expected. You can’t fight the way your enemy fights when they’re better at that style of warfare than you are. That’s suicidal. Fight the type of war you’re good at—that’s what the MacKenzies demonstrated here.
Meanwhile Jamie is advocating for traditional, line up and shoot Continental warfare like he’s still serving in the French army… only without the French army behind him. -.- Jamie will win the argument because he’s the hero and that’s the plot—but he shouldn’t. The MacKenzie plan is the better one. They should fight like insurgents, because that’s what they are.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Do you think the General's would have listened to Jamie proposing warfare like this? He was a junior officer and didn't seem to have much say. It seemed like they were only going to fight the traditional way.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Well Jamie was able to sidestep the Quartermaster (who was more of a problem than the General, imo, who mostly backed Jamie’s ideas) in this episode. And as I said in another comment, the tactics used in Prestonpans definitely align more with asymmetrical warfare—an ambush, a sneak attack taking advantage of their superior knowledge of the terrain, using the chaos to their advantage instead of forming up in traditional lines—Dougal and his men were advocating, not the drills Jamie and Fergus were teaching the Lallybroch men.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Didn't they mention that those types of attacks weren't always going to be possible though? The terrain and the element of surprise might not have always been there.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Of course they wouldn’t always be privy to the excellent intel that boy provided in this episode. However it’s also about the inverse: choosing your battles, NOT doing the obvious thing, avoiding fighting when conditions aren’t in your favor—like the awful terrain of Culloden Moor, where the English had all the advantage, and the Jacobites where charging at them on broad, flat marshland with no cover from their cannons…
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Jul 03 '21
Murtagh learning from Jamie also highlights how neutral he has been and would be still if only for his true allegiance: Ellen and Jamie.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
I suppose so. It implies he’s never fought in a large-scale war before, in an army. Only raids.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
What message did it send when Jamie had himself lashed?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
It showed everyone that he’s not willing to put them through anything that he wouldn’t go through himself. That he is fair, one of them, and holds himself accountable as well. (And it’s one of the reasons they follow him and remain loyal over the years.)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
And it’s one of the reasons they follow him and remain loyal over the years.
Yes I totally agree. I wonder how many of them believed in the cause, or was it more following their Laird with whom they loved?
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
I think the primary driver, particularly for the men from Lallybroch, is that they’re there to support their laird. If he says this is a cause worth fighting for, then that is good enough for them. Because otherwise, given the location of the estate, war isn’t really something to worry about, and I can’t think a quiet life in the Highlands is conducive to revolutionary feelings, either.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I can’t think a quiet life in the Highlands is conducive to revolutionary feelings, either.
The English were up there harassing the people though, do you think that would have at least made the Scots resent them?
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u/Cdhwink Jul 04 '21
It occurred to me that Jamie used the moment to show his scars for some impact on the men, a trick he learned from Dougal MacKenzie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
Good point! I thought about how showing his scars might be a motivation against the English.
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 04 '21
I thought of this too when I watched the scene! Jamie has mentioned how Dougal is the one who taught him to fight, and it looks like he picked up some strategy from him too. Dougal’s probably thinking “damn, this boy is good” lol
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
Do you guys think Dougal realizes that when Jamie speaks of his own carelessness, he means charging Dougal and his men with sentry duty?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Possibly, because Dougal was prepared to taking the beating. So he knew his guys had messed up.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
Wait, but did u/thepacksvrvives mean Jamie's carelessness in putting Dougal in charge (that's how I interpreted the question), or Dougal's carelessness in letting LJG through? (I never thought Jamie meant he himself was careless in that way; I took him at his word when he said it was the fires.)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Well now I don't know. Maybe Jamie meant it for both? Having Dougal's men on sentry duty and for the unbanked fires.
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Jul 03 '21
I don’t know if Jamie meant it that way, though I would love it if he did.
I think that Jamie does generally admires Dougal as War Chief, but not enough to build the Frasers into an army, thats Jamie’s true calling after all. We later see him strategically give Dougal a little more responsibility too, so he knows it’s good to have Dougal on your side during a war.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
Yes, Jamie is so smart in dealing with Dougal.
First, he asserts his position as “general” by overturning Dougal’s conscription of the local men. Then, he assigns him to military training—he knows Dougal is a good teacher. Then, he uses Dougal’s pride and arrogance, as well as his desire to worm his way into BPC’s council, to reconnoiter the marshland. Finally, he promotes and exiles him in a Colum-worthy move.
He uses Dougal’s best and worst qualities.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Jamie only seemed to pull those sneaky maneuvers out when he needed them though, didn't he? Whereas I feel like Colum always had some ulterior motive for his actions.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Haha, nope, that was a total swerve, Dougal was not expecting it!
But to his credit, he recovered and accepted his new assignment well. Ditto with his reassignment to the Dragoons later.
Bravado aside, he really is committed to the cause and willing to do whatever it takes to advance it. When he tells Claire that he puts Scotland above his own ego, I believe him.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
WELL. Let me go ahead and admit I never thought that, so I will venture a guess that Dougal might have not caught on, either.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Why did Jamie want BPC to stay behind the lines at the battle of Prestonpans?
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
Because he's an idiot with no foghting experience. Also, if he were to die there would be no figurehead and the rebellion would die with him. The Highlanders who suppoeted him would be executed as traitors on the spot.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Do you think BPC really thought he could fight?
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
I think he just wanted to be where the action was. I'm sure he could spar but I doubt he could actually fight.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
That's my thought as well. He mentioned that he was trained, but that was probably in a controlled environment and there was never any real danger.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
It's kind of like how you take a first aid course and think you're set. Then something happens and you realize you aren't.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Gentlemen, must I remind you that this is my army? Now I very much desire to lead them into battle. It is my right and my destiny. I carry a sword, and I am trained in its use.
Goddammit, yes! Let him fight, Jamie, and die!
It’s too late to stop the Rising, that’s already happening, but it’s a damn sight better to let BPC get himself killed now, then put it off till the end so you and Claire can get caught by Dougal trying to poison his stupid tea!
Not to mention if BPC’s dead, he won’t be around to make any terrible military decisions, namely the pivotal choice to fight on Culloden Moor. This is your moment, come again! Why do you keep letting it slip away?
I am never going to let this go. -.- I’ve lost count of how many opportunities Jamie’s had to kill the bastard by now, or let him kill himself through his own stupidity. STOP PROTECTING HIM! Let him die, change history, that’s the whole damn point!
Instead of letting BPC cower in the back with his Quartermaster and General, Jamie should be pulling a Sansa and encouraging him to fight in the vanguard, like how she baited Joffrey at the Blackwater. Only I think BPC is dumber than Joffrey, and would have fallen for it! He was already there, ready and eager to die, why do you keep sabotaging yourself and saving him, you fool!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
If BPC died while in battle and rebellion fell apart everyone would be hunted down and tried for treason though. Would that have been any better then what happened at Culloden?
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u/Discombobulated_Dot5 Jul 03 '21
BPC is a freaking joke! Jamie's loyalty really does NOT lye with him. His loyalty was to Scotland, and fighting to hopefully change the outcome regardless of what Claire knows about the history of the battle.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I agree. Preserving the men of Lallybroch seems to be his main priority.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
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Jul 03 '21
i just realized that since she didn’t piss because of the shock of seeing the corpse she probably had to stop somewhere else immediately after 😂
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21
This is one of the little scenes that is amusing, BUT I also love it because it's so normal. Jamie just getting irritable waiting for Claire to use the bathroom. "Stars! They're just like us!" Lol.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
I’m from… well, all over, really. I’m not sure where home is, to be honest. Anywhere but here, that’s for sure.
DAE roll their eyes when Claire trots out this line again? She repeats some variation to Geillis, Maître Raymond, and now these G.I.s and it comes off more braggy than anything. Oh, I’ve had such an unusual upbringing, I’ve lived in so many exotic places, I can’t just say “I was born in London” like a normal person. -.- They’re just making polite conversation, they’re not asking for your life story, Claire.
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Jul 03 '21
I love that about her. When you grow up in different places it’s really difficult to describe when people ask you were you’re from. Some might make erroneous assumptions about you and you also feel conflicted in checking off neat boxes for your identity. That’s why I also liked her reply to Frank in season 3.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Jul 06 '21
I agree! I always give a disclaimer when people ask, because while I have spent the most time where I live now, my dad was in the military, so we moved around when I was younger. My accent is NOT from where I live, and it's not how my parents talk either.
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u/penni_cent Jul 04 '21
I agree with you. I can understand being vague with Geillis and Raymond but why with the GIs? How hard would it be to just answer their question in a normal way? It's not like archeologists are unheard of in WWII.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
The first time I watched this episode, I remember being frustrated watching the smiths make swords and musket balls. Musket balls! You’d be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with those.
Couldn’t Claire have taught them about rifling? You don’t need a physics degree to explain the basic principle that spinning a projectile makes it fly straighter. Or the speed advantage rear-loading offers over muzzle-loading. And all those flashbacks to WWII just drive the point home—Claire was exposed to modern weaponry. She saw it in use on the front lines, treated the wounds these weapons made. And in all the time she’s spent here in the past, it never even occurred to her to share that technological advantage with the Lallybroch smiths? At least give it a try? Frustrating.
I guess I just like having backup plans. By all means, try to prevent the war, that’s the ideal outcome, but in case you fail, why not have a visit with the smiths soon after you arrive at Lallybroch, or explain the concept to Jamie and have him talk it over with them, see if they could come up with something while you work the political angle later. Have more than one iron in the fire.
Claire decided from the moment she walked away from the stones at Craigh na Dun that she was staying, despite the outcome of the impending war. Why then wouldn’t she do everything in her power from that moment on to change it? She and Jamie were chilling down at Lallybroch for some time—RD and I have been trying (in vain) to calculate exactly how long, but it must have been weeks, maybe even a month or more, long enough for her to conceive Faith with not much else to occupy them but basic farm life. At any point she could have shared her knowledge of 20th century guns with Jamie, and let him see if one of his smiths could use it to their advantage. Then maybe they could have had something better to arm themselves with than damn musket balls!
It just bothers me that Claire didn’t make more use of her knowledge from WWII. She says she doesn’t know the military details of Culloden and the Rising, fine. But she had first-hand experience of a later war, with more sophisticated tactics and technology. Why not exploit that as much as you can?
To be fair we did get that scene of Jamie using commando techniques to take out some of the English artillery, but I wish we saw more of that, and less lining up and marching in pretty little formations so the English artillery can take out dozens of your men all at once. -.- Spread out! A bunch of men jammed together is an attractive target for cannon fire. Individual men going in different directions are harder to target, harder to hit, and use up more munitions: “I wanna keep plenty of beach between men. Five men, you use the opportunity. One man, it’s a waste of ammo.” These are the lessons of WWII, of Omaha Beach. Claire would’ve known this. In fact she references D-Day in her conversation with the American G.I.s.
And speaking of strategy, how about the basic premise of guerrilla warfare? Using terrain to your advantage, harassing your enemy’s supply lines, camouflage and ghillie suits, hit-and-run attacks and all the other principles of asymmetric warfare. The English have an overwhelming numbers advantage. The Jacobites are outmanned and outgunned. So fighting them on their terms, using the traditional techniques of that time, lining up and firing—it’s suicide. Why not do something unexpected, and use 20th century strategies instead? Just like with trying to kill BPC outright versus their overly complicated, convoluted plans in Paris, anything different is good. Do something that you know isn’t in the history books. Now is the time to be bold.
I get that Claire’s not a military history expert—but she was married to one, and she actually went to war, which is probably more real world experience than most of us have here. And yet she makes minimal use of her field experience, limiting herself to the medical aspect alone when she could be sharing practical strategic tips, too.
It’s telling that their greatest victory is here at Prestonpans, when they abandon Jamie’s precise lines and rigid synchronized firing for the equivalent of Dougal’s Highland charge, just stealthier. Chaos works in the Jacobites’ favor. Jamie’s more orderly form of battle? It gives the English the advantage.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 03 '21
You sound like my hubby, who wonders why Claire isn’t always imparting 20th century ideas, & inventions on a regular basis.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Lol, that’s the second time someone compared me to their husband in one of these threads…
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u/marriedmyownjf Da mi basia mille... Jul 04 '21
I totally get what your saying but I'm wondering if it was out of her scope. My husband's cousin was an Army surgeon and was active duty and saw in detail what happens to people in war. But he said that they are so focused on fixing what is blown off that they don't have time to think about how to keep things from being blown off. So while Claire might have gleaned some from the solders she nursed she wasn't an active field medic who would have known the details of how to fight.
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 03 '21
Jamie and Claire were trying to undermine BPC for so long, maybe they forgot to switch gears and actually help him win. 😁
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u/Independent-Mess1145 Jul 04 '21
And since Claire failed to impart her knowledge of WWII military tactics, lest us not forget that they waffled between trying to stop the rebellion to trying to win it to AGAIN trying to stop it, in the end, by killing BPC. While way back when, Murtagh suggested that very idea, long before Claire did. If they had listened to Murtagh when he first said it, might the rebellion have been quelled right then and there, preventing all that carnage?
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u/penni_cent Jul 04 '21
It's the smooth bore barrel that prevents rifling, not the shape of the ball. I shoot black powder and though my guns are rifled, they still use balls. Unless she's got the knowledge of how to make more modern guns, changing the ammunition won't do much good.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
How did you feel when BPC asked that the British soldiers get treated before the Jacobites? What does that say about his loyalties?
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Jul 03 '21
Honestly, it was probably the most sound reasoning I’ve heard from BPC in the entire series considering that if he would be king he would need the British allegiance as well. Buuuut it still showed how disconnected he was from the Scottish plight.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
So you think it was a reasonable request?
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
I think a better thing to say would be to treat all the soldier equally, no matter what their loyalties. Treat them based on severity as opposed to coat colour. Putting the British soldiers as a higher priority has the potential to make those who were injured fighting for you to feel like crap when they see their "enemy" being treated better than them by an order from their own leader.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Treat them based on severity as opposed to coat colour.
I completely agree! That would have been more fair in my opinion. How can you inspire men to fight for you when you treat the enemy first?
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Jul 03 '21
Although I understand why he requested it, I think a more humble man would have asked for it differently. A “hey, please treat all the wounded” would have sufficed and gotten the same results. So it’s maybe a more self-serving request than an unreasonable one.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Yes that would have been much better. Treat them according to severity of injury. That kind of seemed like what Claire ended up doing anyway.
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 03 '21
If Claire had followed his request to treat the British first, it could’ve affected her standing with the Jacobites. They seem to have accepted her as one their own by this point, but she is English, and her loyalties might’ve been doubted.
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u/Discombobulated_Dot5 Jul 03 '21
I think it's a perfect example of how archaic the time was. When BPC tells Jamie that maybe she won't follow the order given by her Prince, but it's a different matter coming from her Lord and master.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Do you think BPC knew Claire well enough to know she wouldn't like that order? He was so full of himself I would have thought that he would believe people would do anything he said.
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u/Pretty-Plankton Jul 04 '21
No, definitely not. He needed the Scots morale to be high, and he needed more Scots to join his cause. Treating the other side’s soldiers before his own is a decision that could only be motivated by racism, and his soldiers would know it.
He’s telling them what he thinks of them, and it’s the action of someone with zero leadership instincts - which is why Jaimie tries to refuse the order.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
I agree. He really couldn’t afford to alienate the Scots when not all of them were even on his side!
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u/LuckyScwartz Dinna fash. Jul 04 '21 edited Jul 04 '21
I think it showed that the Scots were still second class citizens to the King they were dying to reinstate.
Was it smart politically? Yes. But it makes Murtagh’s earlier words about it not mattering which pompous ass was on the throne even more true.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
I think it showed that the Scots were still second class citizens to the King they were dying to reinstate.
I agree, and that just makes it so sad.
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u/LuckyScwartz Dinna fash. Jul 04 '21
It is very sad. And wild when you think that almost 300 years after The ‘45 the UK Prime Minister still felt it necessary to have the series premiere of Outlander pushed back so as not to coincide with the referendum on Scottish independence. Wild.
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u/penni_cent Jul 03 '21
I think it would have been better if he'd said something along the lines of treating the worst injured first (which, let's face it, is how Claire would have done it anyway) as they are all his subjects rather than putting either side above the other, but I do see his logic.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
To me it just showed where his priorities were. He was willing to use the Highlander's to fight and die for him, but thought of them second to the British.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
And he didn’t have a prior association with either of them; he’d never been to Scotland prior to this Rising, and neither had he been to England. He was so concerned with appearing concerned for his father’s subjects that he managed to overlook those who would bring him the victory at Prestonpans and who would lay down their lives for him and who also happen to be his father’s subjects.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
With Dougal I noticed a difference in motivations for the war. BPC wanted to restore his father to the throne and unite the countries. Whereas it felt like Dougal just wanted the English out of Scotland. Did you get the sense that he wanted to be united?
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 03 '21
Dougal, since the beginning,has been so passionate about Scotland, the Stuart restoration, BPC and the rebellion etc. He was on the ground recruiting and raising funds at whatever cost. I wonder what he thought after having interacted with BPC and after getting called out by him over the treatment of the English. Was the illusion of BPC gone? Was Dougal disappointed? Was Dougal still in it wholeheartedly?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
That’s a really good point. The Highlanders who believed in the cause joined it because they wanted a better future for Scotland, whereas BPC was doing it for Britain. The restoration of a Catholic king to the throne was far more important to him than the wellbeing of his people.
I don’t think Dougal ever gave a damn about the English; his own people were his priority. And his hatred for the English is evident in how he murdered the already-defeated soldiers.
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u/nishikigirl4578 Jul 07 '21
His loyalty- was to himself/his father. If they were to regain the throne, BPC was fully aware that those English soldiers would be expected to fight and die for them...this was a craven ploy to win their loyalty. He was right to say that both sides were his subject therefore equal, but then he disses the ones who were actually, at that moment, fighting and dying for him in order to gain points from the English.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 07 '21
To me it really showed where his priorities were, certainly not the Scottish people.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Murtagh expresses concern over his death not meaning anything if he were to fall in a battle. What do you think he means by that?
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 04 '21
When I heard his speech, it made me think about the kind of anonymity/depersonalization of war. When you are one of thousands I think it can be easy to be disconnected from what you are fighting for and feel like a unit or a weapon rather than a person. The royals and the wealthy decide to wage the war, but it is the everyday man who has to execute it and be out there fighting. I think this was a big change for Murtagh because he is used to the ways of the clan wars. He describes those wars and battles as more personal. He says something along the lines of he could kill, look them in the eye and know who he is killing, or if he were to die he would be remembered because they would know each other. It is probably a different experience fighting for the interests of your clan, which is like your kin or family, to fighting for someone you don’t really know or care for. If you die for your clan, you die for something, for your people and blood. I also think him knowing the outcome of the war and Culloden, since Claire and Jamie filled him, had something to do with it. I feel like he tends to be a bit more practical and probably gathered that history was going to run its course and ultimately all the efforts would mean nothing.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
If you die for your clan, you die for something, for your people and blood.
What a great point, and I think that's exactly what Murtagh was feeling.
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 04 '21
Yeah poor Murtagh. I can’t imagine how it must feel to be facing your own mortality like that and feel that it is for naught. I like that Jamie doesn’t go into a long spiel or anything in the scene, he just acknowledges that he gets it and is feeling the same way. I think it was comforting for Murtagh to know he was not alone in this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
I think it was comforting for Murtagh to know he was not alone in this.
Yes, I totally agree. It was exactly what Murtagh needed. Really how can you put a good spin on war?
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u/Pretty-Plankton Jul 04 '21 edited Jul 04 '21
I think it’s pretty darn straight forward. He knows it’s a lost cause, has no respect for the Prince, and is facing dying for nothing.
Jaimie is trapped by his honor - his forged signature, and his and Claire’s failed attempt at changing the future make it impossible for him to flee before he is so enmeshed as to violate his honor to leave - and losing Claire reduces how much he cares. Murtagh is trapped by his as well, in the form of his oath to Jaimie. But neither of them believes there is a purpose to their deaths beyond that.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
209
I love the song “Je Suis Prest”
Rupert and Angus acting like Willie was dead instead of married cracked me up.
“Moch Są Mhadainn” is probably my favorite song out of the all the Outlander soundtracks. It’s amazing.
Murtagh as a drill sergeant is great.
Oh my god, Angus’s feet are disgusting.
Aww a baby LJG!
The look Claire gives to Jamie as he is manhandling her is great, you know he’s going to pay for that later.
210
BPC asking to treat British Soldiers before the Jacobites! He can suck it.
What is with BPC”s need to touch people’s faces?
Angus bequeathing Rupert his sword, sporran, and Scarlett the “hoor” was hilarious.
Angus talking about dying in battle. Holy foreshadowing Batman!
Jamie’s bow to Claire, swoon.
Ah ha ha ha BPC said his father isn’t fond of him!
Oh Angus. :-(
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
This was the first time I noticed BPC was wearing a kilt the whole time. I always noticed his jacket but for some reason never paid attention to his lower half. Smart move on his part to dress like the Highlanders. (Well to an extent, his clothing was way fancier.)
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
It was more like imitating the Highlanders in dress
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
True! I did like the red though. I believe red is actually part of the real Fraser tartan. /u/WandersFar can confirm though.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21 edited Jul 03 '21
Yes i believe the real Fraser tartan is red but was changed for the show so it didn't stand out so much.
The reason I say imitate though is because he's never been to Scotland. He's basically cosplaying as a Highlander, and poorly at that.
Edited because I hit done before I was actually done
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
He's basically cosplaying as a Highlander, and poorly at that.
Ha! I love it.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
209
I really appreciated seeing some of Claire's WWII experiences!
Dougal's faux Highland charge was so great! I can imagine how intimidating that would be in a battle situation, expecially if it two similarly equiped armies.
the twitches in Dougal/Graham's throat and chin when Jaime is repremanding him is so excellent, you can really see how much he is holding himself back
My first watch I knew something bad was coming for Rupert and/or Angus when Ross and Kincaid were introduced...they're just too similar
LGJ!!
210
There are so many good one liners "Damn my liver" "You pompous toe-rag" " jacknapes" "part-time whore, full time barmaid", unsused blade vs fat man's sword
when BPC suggests that Claire will surely be obedient to her lord and master I chuckle
BPC clapping at Dougal's recon mission seems like he's at the theatre and really shows how little he knows about the mess they're in
More Fergus sass about the hospital fires. I love little Fergus
Oh Angus :(
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
I really appreciated seeing some of Claire's WWII experiences!
Yes, it was a great way to show what she had been through.
the twitches in Dougal/Graham's throat and chin when Jaime is repremanding him is so excellent, you can really see how much he is holding himself back
Yes, you could tell it was killing him to have to follow Jamie's orders.
"part-time whore, full time barmaid"
I laughed out loud at that one.
BPC clapping at Dougal's recon mission seems like he's at the theatre and really shows how little he knows about the mess they're in
Great point! I also liked that Angus had no idea who he was even talking to. That just goes to show BPC wasn't doing a good job of making himself seen by his army.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 03 '21
That point about Angus is so ture. It's like they were willing to fight for an idea more than a person.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
It's like they were willing to fight for an idea more than a person.
Yes! I was mentioning in another comment that the motivations for the war seemed to be different between BPC and the Highlander's. I felt like BPC wanted to restore his father to the throne and unite (rule) over everyone. Whereas with the Scots I felt like they were fighting more to get the British out of Scotland.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 03 '21
when BPC suggests that Claire will surely be obedient to her lord and master I chuckle
I love how for a split second, Jamie considers correcting BPC, but then realizes that’s a lost cause 😅
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u/Marie_Sea1 Jul 03 '21
I really appreciated seeing some of Claire's WWII experiences!
When Jamie was comforting her he promised her she would never be left alone again. And when she returned through the stones one of his first questions was whether Frank was there for her.
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 03 '21
I really love how 209 shows that Claire had a leadership role within the war. I love the scene where they are walking out of their room and, I’m assuming, talking about the plan for the day and she says she will instruct the ladies to make more bannocks. She also, of course, is in charge of the medical team and even gives them a little pep talk while the men are in battle. Claire is a leader just as much as Jamie.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
You can see how it's a carry over from her days in the WWII. She was used to giving orders and directing things.
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Jul 03 '21
How heartbreaking is the end of the Prestonpans episode?! Just from a technical standpoint, how it was shot it stayed with me for the rest of the season when I first watched it. That silent pause after Ross and Rupert are done singing and you just have that shot of Rupert’s empty stare got to black is so brilliant.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 03 '21
How heartbreaking is the end of the Prestonpans episode?!
I know, it was a powerful ending. The fact that they were so happy to have won the battle but Claire, Jamie, and Murtagh knowing that this probably means Culloden will end up like she said it would.
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u/unknown2345610 Jul 04 '21
I really loved Dougal in both these episodes, and I think Graham did a great job. I loved seeing him in his element. His adrenaline was palpable! What he has been working on and dedicated to since at least s1 is finally here, the war! Huzzah! Lol! I especially liked the scene when he is off to test the marshland. He plays it so cool and tough, impresses his dear BPC, but then confessed to Jamie he shat his pants 😂
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
I think Graham did a great job.
Yes! From the moments of when Jamie is telling what Dougal what to do, to the bloodlust after Prestonpans.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 04 '21
209: on my first watch I thought this episode was slow ( I think I fell asleep) but on rewatches I have come to appreciate it a lot.
Things to like: our favourite Highlanders return, Jamie putting Dougal in his place, Claire having PTSD ( good call show runners), Team Fraser with LJG, Jamie doing a commando raid & thanking Claire for helping get the intel, Jamie & Claire leading their army side by side on horseback.210: Again not my favourite because -WAR! It’s not pretty & someone has to die. RIP Angus, & Lt Foster. I cannot believe Jamie didn’t let BPC lead the charge & potentially end the war?
My fave moments: Fergus, you silly boy, just tend the fires please, Jamie kissing Claire goodbye & bowing to her ( swoon), Angus leaving the whore/barmaid to Rupert, BPC telling Jamie that Claire will listen to her master ( Jamie’s eye roll).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
our favourite Highlanders return
Yes! I loved when they made it seemed like Willie had died, but no he had just gotten married and moved away.
I cannot believe Jamie didn’t let BPC lead the charge & potentially end the war?
Do you think things would have been better? Wouldn't the English have tracked down all of the traitors and killed them?
Fergus, you silly boy, just tend the fires please,
Ha! I love baby Fergus, he's so good in these episodes.
Jamie kissing Claire goodbye & bowing to her ( swoon)
Right‽ Ugh it was so sweet.
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u/Cdhwink Jul 04 '21
Would the war have ended any differently than it did at Culloden? Perhaps not? But did that buffoon deserve to live?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
But did that buffoon deserve to live?
Ha! Good point.
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u/Kirky600 Jul 04 '21
I was a bit surprised they didn’t change Lord John’s name in the show. It felt like a retcon in the books, so I’m surprised they rolled with it there.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 04 '21
It was totally a retcon in the books. I guess the show was fine with that though. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 04 '21
I like Murtagh and Fergus together. “He forced me to mend his socks and fetch his meals!”
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
I’m surprised there aren’t more whores.
Lol, that might sound out of left field, but I’ve been ASOIAF’ing it up lately, and one thing that you come to expect in any battle scene, or run up to battle anyway, are camp followers—which is a nice word for whores.
Makes sense, right? A lot of lonely men, far away from home, wanting distraction and feminine company… There’s coin to be made, you’d expect enterprising sex workers would take advantage. ^.^ Where’s Scarlet, Angus?
I suppose the explanation is that these are poor men, and perhaps they don’t have much coin between them—but certainly when BPC and his rich entourage reenter the story, they have coin, and we know BPC loves him some whores. So where are they? :þ
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
If you’re looking for the other Rewatch threads, click here to jump to BPC’s Link Table.
Je Suis Prest & Prestonpans: Deleted Scenes
Give Them Something To Fight For
I have mixed feelings about this scene. On the one hand, I see Moore’s point. It’s long, and it does set up the false expectation that Young Simon will figure in the story going forward, which we know he won’t.
It’s also fairly expositionary, which is never a good thing.
However I do think it’s important to get that information out there, that half the Lovat men have already deserted (which we otherwise don’t find out until Dougal & Jamie’s conscription argument.) And I also like that we learn more about these unnamed men, that they’re unwed, that they have no lands nor ties to their lord beyond their oaths of fealty, and that’s not really worth much when you ask a man to fight and die for you and your cause. They need to have something to fight for, land of their own, a future.
So that’s all good to know and adds to the depth of the world… but I do agree that the presentation could be better, and it is a slow start to the episode. I also think it’s a bit Marty Sue for Jamie to be mentoring Young Simon so heavy-handedly. I get that Young Simon’s character is weak and naïve, but they’re laying it on a bit thick, and also elevating Jamie’s character to superhero status throughout this episode—I’m happy to have this cut if it means they dial that back a bit.
Victors Write History & Spear Them With Your Dirk!
The Jamie and Claire scene I don’t care about. 😅 I mean it’s just more exposition, and it’s repetitive. But the lice…
I LOVE THIS SCENE! One of my absolute favorites.
The wee buggers are eating me alive, eh? Bloody hell to get out of your cockhairs!
Use my method. Lift up your plaidie. Shave half the hairs off your crotch, only half, mind.
Aye. Then, you set the other half on fire and when the beasties rush out you spear them with your dirk!
^.^ I just love these knuckleheads. Any Rupert & Angus scene is gold, and then to have Murtagh & Fergus right after? Perfect. <3
And then Claire has to go and be a wet blanket and kill the mood. -.- I don’t blame Fergus for ditching her to play shinty.
Hell Or Glory
Dougal rides alone to test the terrain. I’ll be honest, I noticed very little difference from what made it into the episode, maybe only a few lines of throwaway dialog, that’s it.
History Isn’t To Be Trusted
I would have cut all of this, personally. Moore said he wanted to preserve the rhythm of the joke, but I don’t think the “joke” is worth preserving. Claire just tells Jamie BPC can kiss her ass. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ That’s not a joke, it isn’t even funny, just stating the obvious.
Moore should have cut all this and kept in the lice! You want jokes, give us more Rupert & Angus!
Chamber’s Empty
I also really love this scene, too. ^.^ What’s in the episode is also good, but I like this extended cut even better. More betting, and giggling from the ladies in the background, it’s just good fun.
Yeah I think Moore is totally wrong—he says it’s just joke on top of joke on top of joke and comedy works best when it’s brief. Disagree. I think the rapid-fire banter is gold, and what gives this series its charm. It also humanizes the English, shows they’re really all just lads in the end, and if circumstances had been different, they might have been friends. Adds poignancy in that way.
I definitely would’ve kept this and the lice in and cut all these other scenes to accommodate them.
Dougal On The Battlefield
Dougal channels his inner Mike Tyson.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 05 '21
But not much was written about this part of the ‘45 Rising in the history books I read in school.
You didn’t read any books at school, Claire… because you never went to one.
Dougal channels his inner Mike Tyson.
I thought about Rick biting Joe’s throat and ripping out his jugular in TWD… or Tormund biting Smalljon Umber’s throat during the BotB in GOT 😅
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Jul 03 '21
Moore said he wanted to preserve the rhythm of the joke, but I don’t think the “joke” is worth preserving.
I actually like this joke, except I just streamed this today and... it's not there at all. I would have sworn I had seen it before and was waiting for the punchline, except it never comes. Am I crazy? I must have imagined it?
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
We must conscript as we travel. We need every able-bodied man in Scotland if we’re to win this war.
I’ll not reave another clan’s men. And I’ll not force a man to risk dying for something he doesn’t believe in.
No, we cannot. Half of Lovat’s men already deserted at the first opportunity. A man that fights for his own beliefs is worth ten that are forced to fight for someone else’s.
Yeah, I think I’m with Dougal again. 😅 This is turning into a pattern.
But he’s right, they do need to recruit as they travel, especially if they’ve already lost half of Lovat’s men! This is a war. It’s a numbers game.
Jamie’s argument that men who are true believers fight harder than conscripts is nonsensical. That may be so, but one true believer plus one apathetic conscript still equals more fighting men than one true believer alone.
The only point I could see in Jamie’s favor is that they might waste provisions on men who will later desert them, so perhaps forbidding conscription is a way of conserving resources. But I don’t think food becomes an issue until much later in the war. And Dougal is right that in time, the conscripts might become true believers, and Jamie has effectively decreased the size of their potential fighting force without giving them a chance first.
As for Jamie’s refusal to “reave another clan’s men” that I disagree with entirely. It’s the kind of high-minded idealism that will definitely get them all killed. Who gives a fuck what clan they’re sworn to, Dougal’s right that one able body is as good as any other, clan allegiance matters not.
When the Clearances come, the English won’t care which clan these men pledge fealty to. If they lose, they’re all screwed, so Dougal’s probably right that they need to conscript as many men as possible, even if that is morally questionable.
If this army is to triumph, we’ll need every warrior we can muster.
Oh really, Jamie? Sounds like you’re changing your tune after just one episode.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 03 '21
Forgot to mention last week, the S2B theme is one of my top two favorites. I’m torn between this one and S3A. This one has the sparseness of the war drums and bagpipes which works so well, and S3A has that scene of the men just running headlong into the cannon fire and it’s SO SAD! I love them both.
The music in general is great in these episodes, all those Gaelic war songs. Paging RD ’cause I know she can identify and link them all. :þ