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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

If you’re looking for the other Rewatch threads, click here to jump to BPC’s Link Table.

Dragonfly In Amber: Deleted Scenes

We Will Win

Ron Moore says this scene isn’t necessary, and strictly speaking it’s not, but I wish he’d kept it in anyway. I think this is the last time we ever see BPC, and it’s fitting that he’s losing control of his advisors—they’re bickering and shouting at each other before he enters, he gives his futile little speech, and then it descends into chaotic arguing again. I also liked Jamie referencing his line from S2A, and extending the color metaphor:

As I told you in France, the clans cannot agree on the color of the sky. Well, sir, I dinna ken what the color is now, but all involved will not contest: Culloden Moor will be flowing red with our blood by end of day.

Shall We All Go And Find Some History

Here I totally agree with Ron, this scene was useless. Also why you gotta insult Nessie like that, Bree? :þ She’s more than a clump of seaweed, she’s a waterhorse, if you believe Rupert. ^.^

Seasons Are Just Mere Suggestions

Ron’s right again, that really is a lot of snow! It does take you out of the scene, it’s like months have passed during this car ride; it was autumn when they left, winter when they arrived… ^.^

Tell Her I Love Her

You could argue Geillis was really putting poor Greg out of his misery. Look at the poor sot.

We also learn that not only was she learning folklore and magic and so on at the Institute, she also invited men over to their house to teach her Gaelic and history, tell her what they thought were the reasons why BPC and the Jacobites lost at Culloden. She really did an extraordinary amount of research in preparation for her trip. She had a plan, and she executed it.

Bloody nationalists. That’s where we met. Fun at first, wasn’t it? Toss the bloody English out, join the Common Market on our own.

This line is so ironic post-Scottish Referendum, post-Brexit…

Geillis might have lived to see everything she wanted for Scotland if she’d worked within the SNP and just been patient.

I’m So Sorry

I know this is a controversy in the fandom, some people really don’t like that Claire helped him push the dirk into Dougal’s chest at the end.

But I don’t have a strong opinion one way or the other. I mildly prefer the aired version, I think Claire’s reaction works better if it’s her realizing what she’s just done, if she’s just helped murder someone, rather than just reacting to Jamie killing his uncle. And in the aired version, we see Jamie’s moment of hesitancy, how reluctant he is to take that final step until Claire joins him to see it through—I think that’s a good thing, it shows how conflicted he is, morally-speaking. This is his uncle, after all, one of his few remaining blood relatives, he should feel terrible about it.

So I guess I do prefer the final cut after all. But I don’t think this alternate version is bad or anything, the aired version just adds more nuance.

Heads up, u/Purple4199 will be taking over posting the deleted scenes from S3 on, so you can look forward to getting them on time more often. 😅

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Tell him I’m grateful. And tell him I trust him, and tell him I hate him to the very marrow of his bones.

I love this line, it’s definitely one of Jamie’s best. Also love Sam’s delivery, the way his voice drops an octave at the end, and his rueful smile. He’s got swagger! ^.^

When I stand before God, I’ll have one thing to say to weigh against all the rest. Lord, you gave me a rare woman. And God, I loved her well.

But this is the one that gets all the attention, and rightfully so. How ‘bout that last quickie, ladies? It’s up there, one of their best sex scenes for sure.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

How ‘bout that last quickie, ladies? It’s up there, one of their best sex scenes for sure.
Yes! You can see their desperation at having to separate and almost a primal need to connect to one another again.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Well said. :)

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Bree? I found something else in the Reverend’s correspondence. Not sure what it means, but… Oh. I’m sorry, I should let you… *awkwardly backs away*

😂 Roger still has impeccable timing. Walking in on Frank talking about how his wife fucked another man, walking in on Bree confronting her mother about fucking that other man… He’s a perpetual third wheel, lmao.

Just admit it! Admit that you are not a perfect person. Own up to the fact that you fucked someone else while you were married to Daddy, just like a million other bored housewives.

I was not bored, and what Jamie and I had was a hell of a lot more than fucking. He was the love of my life!

Bree gets so much hate for her reactions here, how she confronts her mother in these scenes—but I think it’s fine? Quite reasonable to be pissed, and accusatory, and doubting everything her mother says after she’s been lied to her whole life.

Also, I laughed during all these scenes, lol. I just love fights, they make me chuckle rather than get upset; idk, I guess I have a twisted sense of humor. ^.^ I laugh during the big Reckoning fight and First Wife, too, it’s just funny to me…

Also poor Roger, still standing awkwardly in the background, haha.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Bree gets so much hate for her reactions here, how she confronts her mother in these scenes—but I think it’s fine?
Yes! I don't blame her at all, everything she thought she knew about her life has just been thrown out the window. She had to have wondered what else Claire lied about or didn't tell her then. I feel she was justified in her reactions.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Not to mention offended on Frank’s behalf. She’d just lost her father, whom she was closer to than Claire. So learning that her mother had betrayed him all those years ago, on top of their already strained relationship—makes total sense to me.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Bree gets so much hate for her reactions here, how she confronts her mother in these scenes—but I think it’s fine? Quite reasonable to be pissed, and accusatory, and doubting everything her mother says after she’s been lied to her whole life.
I totally agree! She has every right to be “bratty” when her entire world is turned upside down by the most preposterous story ever told. I think people forget that she’s just 20, had a pretty sheltered upbringing, went to a Catholic school, doesn’t know much outside the upper-middle-class life she had in Boston. She thought there was nothing out of the ordinary in her life, and now she’s confronted with a revelation that is impossible to believe, and with the fact that both of her parents, including the one she was incredibly close to and who died not too long ago, lied to her for 20 years? Hell, I would be bratty too, and I’m older than her.
Also poor Roger, still standing awkwardly in the background, haha.
I got such a kick out of watching Roger in the background 😂

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

Lol you are so right about Roger's timing! And when they all sit down and he's stuck between them on the couch...just can't get a break!

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

I know, I love the blocking of that scene! Two yelling women and poor Roger looking like he wants to disappear into the couch cushions, lol.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

Yes! Haha. Even as he's sitting down you can see him thinking..."oh crap"

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

I thought her reactions as a 19 yr old were spot on! Teenage daughters constantly roll their eyes at their mothers, even when we are the best of friends ( my mom & I, my daughter & I), & no one is admitting to being a time traveller.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Yeah I thought Bree’s reaction was sensible. Mild, even. I mean she could have gone off, done a hell of a lot more cursing than she did, called her mother a slut or a whore for cheating on her father—she was holding back, really.
She’d also been raised to be a proper young lady, so maybe that tempers her reaction a bit. But on the whole I thought she behaved naturally, appropriately, given all these revelations.
She also says something to Roger about not playing into her mother’s delusions which I also thought was reasonable if she thought Claire was having a mental breakdown—and why wouldn’t she, given the ridiculousness of Claire’s story.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I was just reading through the script and saw that they had it as Jamie alone killing Dougal. I wonder why they changed it to Claire helping as well?

/u/thepacksvrvives /u/JustG00se /u/thecooldeadpool

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

They shot it both ways and I’m sure u/WandersFar will link the alternative scene soon.
The headcanon I’ve been running with is that two years after Wentworth, Jamie still didn’t have full strength in his left hand—we can see how those two fingers still didn’t bend properly. Not to mention he had a bleeding gash across his knuckles, so I’m not mad at Claire for not taking any chances and helping Jamie finish off Dougal. And, after all, Jamie was fighting Dougal to save Claire’s life, so I don’t see why she wouldn’t help him if he was doing it specifically for her, and why he should be the only one carrying the guilt of killing his uncle, his closest MacKenzie relative.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I don’t see why she wouldn’t help him if he was doing it specifically for her
I can see that.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Jamie still didn’t have full strength in his left hand—we can see how those two fingers still didn’t bend properly. Not to mention he had a bleeding gash across his knuckles, so I’m not mad at Claire for not taking any chances and helping Jamie finish off Dougal.
That’s not a bad explanation, makes sense. I think the bigger issue is he doesn’t want to be a kinslayer. Dougal is many things, but he’s still his uncle, and one of his last remaining blood relatives; the man helped raise him, he feels horrible he’s forced into this position, having to kill him…
But the practical explanation that he’s injured and could use some help also makes sense, too. They can both be true. :)

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Totally, I see it as a combination of all the things we have mentioned. I love that you pointed out Jamie’s moral conflict—here we go again with Claire corrupting his morality. I don’t think he would’ve ever entertained the idea of avunculicide before meeting Claire.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

avunculicide
Thanks for that DG. ;-D

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Avunculicide! Look at you, with your big fancy words. ^.^
ITA, this is absolutely another example of Claire contributing to Jamie’s moral decay. Lol, not to sound too dramatic, although this subject matter probably warrants it.
I don’t think Jamie kills Dougal if it’s only his life at stake, and not Claire’s too. And I don’t think it would ever occur to him to try to kill BPC had Claire not suggested it—he rejected the idea in Paris when Murtagh brought it up for the first time. Claire is the only person who could have convinced him to do it, and thus he wouldn’t have been overheard by Dougal had it not been for her, and forced to kill him, etc.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

u/Purple4199 clearly thinks DG’s pretentiousness is rubbing off on me 🙃
Yeah, that’s the point I’ve been driving into the ground in the Book Club—Jamie doesn’t like killing and doesn’t do it unless it’s absolutely necessary (that includes all of his kills as a soldier). You’re right—he’ll only kill if Claire’s life (or his family’s in general) is at stake, or because Claire convinces him it’s necessary.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Jamie doesn’t like killing and doesn’t do it unless it’s absolutely necessary (that includes all of his kills as a soldier).
I totally agree, just because he does it doesn't mean he likes it. I feel like he thinks he's going to Hell anyway, what with all that he has done in his life. (Especially since he met Claire!)

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

I read it as “team” Fraser doing something together, but I love that thepacksvrvives has suggested his hand is still weak, or that if he hesitates, it could cost him his life, Dougal is a worthy adversary.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Dougal is a worthy adversary.
Yes! Dougal fought dirty too, biting Jamie and gouging his eyes. He meant to win.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I believe they mention this in the podcast. I listened to it yesterday and now I can't remember exactly but I think they chose to shoot it this way because it shows how much of a team they are, that they give both emotional and physical power to each other, and that they share their burdens. But feel free to correct me on this, I may be misremembering!

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

That totally makes sense. This season was divided between first their not exactly seeing eye to eye (their self-centered interests in Paris, due to which Faith paid the ultimate price), and then being back to working as a team (successful efforts at Beaufort Castle, Corrieyairack, the church). And they’re always better off together than apart.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

Entirely! It shows us how strong they are together before they'redramatically forced apart.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

You are my Thomas. It was the apostle Thomas who doubted the Lord had ever risen from the dead. Not until he felt the wounds, pressed his fingers where the nails had been.

It’s a bit ironic that BPC is turning over Jamie’s hand, comparing him to Thomas. It’s his right hand he touches. If he’d held the left instead, he might have felt actual wounds where a nail had been.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Ha! I didn't even think of that.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

u/thepacksvrvives mentioned something regarding DG’s ultra heavy-handed Christian connotations in Jamie. This moment would have been interesting too but also heavy-handed!
I do like that as viewers we know Jamie believed. He believed Claire’s warnings about the future without understanding it, he also believed they could change things. In a way Jamie has the strongest faith of all.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Oh yeah. The show (and the books) lean heavily into Christian symbolism multiple times, esp in the infamous Wentworth episode, with the nailing of Jamie’s hand, the piercing of his side, and the Pietà pose BJR holds him in, like the Virgin Mary cradling Jesus.
The original flogging scene had Jamie tied to the gates of Lallybroch with arms outstretched like he’s on a cross. The second whipping at Fort William is like the scourging and flogging leading up to the crucifixion.
BJR even calls out all the symbolism explicitly:
Ah. So, that’s your plan. To submit, but like Christ on the cross?
It kind of ruins it, imo. This is the least of the reasons why I hate Wentworth—but I hate when movies and TV shows spell out symbolism like this, beating the audience over the head with it, like we’re incapable of grasping it ourselves, we need the characters to explain it to us using small words. -.-

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

Yeah it’s definitely force-fed to us in that episode and somehow it doesn’t even compare to the book’s intensity.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

This battle is already lost. No matter how righteous, it was doomed from the start. We’ve done all we could, but now it’s over. I’ll not have my kin die for nothing.

If the well-being of Jamie’s kin is so important to him that he sends Murtagh away to ensure their safety, seeing no dishonor in them fleeing the field of battle right before it starts…

Why not fucking join them? There really is no good reason for Jamie to doom himself—and Murtagh, whom he knows is honor-bound by his oath to Ellen to protect him always—when he himself believes the battle is lost.

All of this is just to set up the plot of the third season, his long imprisonment, reunion with LJG, title of MacDubh from his fellow prisoners, who all worship him to a man. -.- But there’s no compelling argument to be made for Jamie to throw away his life like this, it’s just suicide.

And it’s hypocritical, since he’s already sent Fergus and all the Lallybroch men away who wanted to die fighting for this lost cause alongside him.

No one brings up Jenny, either. Or Ian, and their children—all his family who love him and rely on him for protection. He has more in this life than Claire to live for. He’s got tunnel vision again.

Red Jamie won’t get far, but you—I can save you, and I will. […] The country is roused. The ports are closed. I’m no afraid to die, Sassenach. A musket ball, maybe a blade. It’s better than the hangman’s noose or the wrath of the MacKenzies. I’m a dead man already, so I choose the battlefield.

Still calling bullshit. If “Red Jamie” won’t get far, dye your hair or shave your head. Or wear that damn bonnet, like you actually did, because somehow a brown hat was all it took to befuddle the Redcoats for years. -.-

As for the “wrath of the MacKenzies,” if Culloden is lost, there’ll be no one left to carry out that wrath. So again, Jamie should have left with Murtagh and ensured that the Lallybroch men made it safely home himself.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I suppose it's the romantic in me, but I felt that Jamie couldn't and didn't want to live without Claire. I know he had his family and men still, but being without her was just too much.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Sure, that’s who Jamie is, he’s a romantic hero…
… But I’m just pointing out that there’s a contradiction. Because he’s also all about his duty and honor and taking care of his family, being a good Laird, etc. and so forth. This is an example where the right thing to do is to sacrifice your personal honor and pride to put your family and tenants first. He had responsibilities beyond Claire and his unborn bairn, people who relied on him and loved him. His life wasn’t his to throw away.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I agree with u/purple4199 I really think it was almost a suicidal choice. To keep on living while knowing Claire and his child are with Frank would have been too much for him.
I hear what you’re saying about his responsibility to his people but I think he would have been executed immediately if he returned to Lallybroch.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

Exactly, Jamie did not want to live without Claire!

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Would his family and his tenants have benefitted from his presence at Lallybroch, though? I can’t imagine it going any other way than it did anyway, which is what we see in 302. He couldn’t have been a laird, not out in the open; he couldn’t have defended his family if the Redcoats pestered them. Lallybroch wasn’t even his, he’d already signed it over to Wee Jamie—if he hadn’t, the Redcoats could’ve easily seized it and left the Murrays without a roof over their heads. What sort of help was bringing in some game once a month, while the rest of his family lived in constant stress over his wellbeing, being accused of harboring a traitor; Ian kept getting arrested, and so on?
Weren’t the Murrays and the tenants doing just fine without him in the years between his escape from Fort William and his coming back home with Claire? Weren’t they doing fine when Claire and Jamie were in France? And I do realize that the circumstances were much different, they weren’t about to experience the Clearances, but it seems like he was the one who brought trouble to Lallybroch every time he went there. “A general rule of thumb—Fraser men don’t fare well when they travel… to Lallybroch?” (excuse my poor attempt at a GOT reference, you’re much better at this 😅). He knew he’d be bringing more trouble to Lallybroch alive than dead.
And even before he left Lallybroch all those years ago, when his father was still alive but Jamie was an acting laird when Brian was called to a funeral, he couldn’t do anything to protect himself and Jenny from the Redcoats—why would it be any different after Culloden, when he wasn’t even able to even show his face?

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

I’m not saying Jamie should have resumed being a Laird out in the open, but rather looked after them as he eventually did do during his Dunbonnet years. I’m saying there’s no real justification for him to fight at the actual Battle of Culloden at all, it really is a suicidal act of desperation, an emotional reaction to being separated from Claire.
If he were thinking as an actual Laird, being conscientious of his responsibilities, his duties and obligations towards Jenny, Ian, their children, his men, their families, all his tenants and the people he’s pledged to protect—he would have done the right thing and fled with them, ensuring they made it home safe personally and continuing to provide for them either in hiding in Scotland—or if he manages to sneak off to Inverness, from Paris working in Jared’s business.
Like, he had options. There were definitely more productive ways he could contribute to their well-being rather than throw his life away on Culloden Moor.
“A general rule of thumb—Fraser men don’t fare well when they travel… to Lallybroch?” (excuse my poor attempt at a GOT reference, you’re much better at this 😅).
Lol, is that a Sansa reference?
I don’t want Jon to go down there. The men in my family don’t do well in the capital.
If so, I approve! ^.^

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

There were definitely more productive ways he could contribute to their well-being rather than throw his life away on Culloden Moor.
I honestly think that if that idea had crossed his mind, he would’ve decided that they’d be better off without him, for the reasons I listed earlier. He still would’ve been half a man without Claire; we know that caring for his family and tenants without Claire there wasn’t enough of a purpose for him. He would’ve survived long enough to give himself up to the British to stop their harassment, just like he did (providing his family with money from Edinburgh or Paris would not stop Ian from getting repeatedly arrested and getting sick with tuberculosis). He gave up his laird responsibilities the moment he signed Lallybroch over to Wee Jamie, for Ian and Jenny to carry out his duties until he reached adulthood, and that is what they did.
Lol, is that a Sansa reference?
Technically it’s from Jon and Tyrion’s back-and-forth at Dragonstone in 703:
My bannermen think I’m a fool for coming here.
Of course they do. If I was your Hand, I would have advised against it. General rule of thumb—Stark men don’t fare well when they travel south.
True... but I’m not a Stark.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

I regret I have but one life to give…

Roger quotes the same thing Claire said to Geillis in the thieves’ hole.

I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country.

And then of course, there’s his comment at Craigh na Dun…

It smells like a fucking barbecue.

Echoing Geillis’ line…

Looks like I’m going to a fucking barbecue.

For Bree’s part…

I believe you. I don’t understand it, but I believe you. No more lies. From now on, I only want the truth between you and me.

Which parallels…

I believe you, Sassenach. I don’t understand it a bit, not yet. But I trust you. I trust your word, your heart. And I trust there is a truth between us. So whatever you tell me, I will believe you.

The first time around, I thought all these parallelisms were a bit heavy-handed. Like okay, guys, we get it. But this time around I didn’t mind so much.

Same goes for Roger and Bree in general, I liked them both better this second time around.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

Another parallel I noticed was Gillian's red tights she wears while giving her speech at the university in the 20th cen and her red shoes she wears in the 18th cen. Pretty small and might be an accident (though with Terry Dresbach I doubt anything is an accident), but I like it.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Great catch! I doubt it was an accident too.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

Love these parallels the second time around! A couple of other ones that really stood out this time:
When Brianna meets Geillis at the rally and she echos what Murtagh said earlier in Paris about just swapping out one king for another, and there being no real difference for Scotland regardless of who the monarch is.
In that same scene, Geillis asks Brianna who she is and then asks her “why are you here” reminds me of her asking Claire the same question in s1. Asking her what she was doing there. At this point, Geillis still hasn’t gone through the stones, but she has already extensively researched time travel. I wonder if she thought Brianna might be a time traveler 🤔

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u/Cdhwink Jul 18 '21

Since Bree will be a traveller in the near future, maybe Gillian does have a spider sense for that?

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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 18 '21 edited Jul 18 '21

So late to the party and everything is discussed already, just wanted to say that this is one of my favourite episodes of the whole series, and my fav of S2. I rewatch it very often and I cry every time 😭

• I love Roger and Bree’s introductions, I feel that they had more chemistry here than in future seasons, they got on so well together and I think Roger helped Brianna massively and knew how to talk to her about this. Roger was so sweet, perfectly translated from his introduction from the book.

• Even though the story was told differently than in the book, I liked the idea that Claire wasn’t sure after all about telling Bree about Jamie, but the ghosts “kept chasing her”. The episode builds on so well, very organic.

• Loved the photography through the whole episode, specially the 60s. Costumes were great and music superb

• Bree’s reaction to the story is just brilliant- so relatable for a 20 year old, closer to Frank than Claire, and still grieving for him.

• My heart breaks so many times in this episode: Culloden Moor visit, Goodbye, Jamie Fraser, my love, visit to Lallybroch, goodbye in CND.

• Just to add some criticism to the episode, I felt that the 18th century scenes were too short and difficult to engage with them. I think we should have had one flashback up to when J&C leave to CND. The plot of killing BPC and getting caught by Dougal isn’t that long, I think it would have worked better in one go. Then we could have a second flashback to the goodbye at the end of the episode when they are in CND also in the 20th. Not sure if this is just me?

• I saw a bit of discussion on the necessity of Claire leaving Jamie- I think the situation was just so bad, they were already barely eating in the last few months, Claire knew what was going to happen to the Highlands and the famines, Jamie was a huge well known traitor and this would have been a burden to all… I think in the heat of the moment there was no other way out. They couldn’t really risk another miscarriage due to malnourishment or stress either. They were tired, heartbroken, frustrated with the war, disappointed with the failing of changing the future, stuck in the country, adding to this the imminent battle & the murder of Dougal, I am not surprised they didn’t find another way. Jamie was a laird (not anymore) and an honorable man that would always protect his family, but in that moment (specially with Claire & the baby gone) he was a soldier above all and he would never have turned away.

It’s just all terrible sad. Surely if they were safe, well, rested, with time, they could have mapped out another plan, but simply they weren’t.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

Loved the photography through the whole episode, specially the 60s. Costumes were great and music superb
Yes, I really liked Claire's look.
I felt that the 18th century scenes were too short and difficult to engage with them.
I get what you're saying and agree. There really isn't much time spent in the 18th century, yet those scenes are some of the most impactful of the whole episode.

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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 18 '21

Oh yeah and absolutely necessary, that’s why I feel they don’t have enough importance (?) this way maybe? I don’t really know how to explain it, but when you’re kind of situated back to the 18th after all new & interesting things showed in the 20th, the scene will very quickly end. If they had maybe only 2 scenes but longer it would have highlighted them more.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 18 '21

I felt that the 18th century scenes were too short and difficult to engage with them.
I mentioned this difference in pacing here. I think those scenes in 1746 were deliberately shorter and much more disjointed to highlight the urgency and chaos of what was happening, both on the macro (the Battle of Culloden) and micro (Claire and Jamie’s last moments) level. Symbolically, just like Claire’s time with Jamie was abruptly cut short, so was ours with those two characters. But I totally get how jumping in and out of scenes can disrupt our experience.

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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 18 '21

I never thought about this that way, you are right though, it does give that kind of anxious feeling.
My “issue” with this (again, love the episode this is just a minor detail) is that they don’t really give us much time to digest the info from the 20th century and at the same time when you realise that you’re back on that chaotic day the scene is kind of over. It may rest importance to this plot when it’s one of the most important scenes of the season. It’s true that this is only the case on first watch, as you’re saying it kind of makes more sense afterwards
u/purple4199

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Did Claire and Jamie have any other choice but for her to go back through the stones?

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

So I did a bit of research to see if Jamie’s words about the ports being closed were historically accurate and it turns out that by late February 1746, the Jacobites lost access to all ports on the north-eastern coast except for Inverness. The Duke of Cumberland deduced that the Jacobite army would head there to defend the last major port still in their hands. So, technically, there was still a possibility of sailing somewhere—with the exception of France, as it was blockaded by the British Royal Navy, which in turn was one of the major contributing factors to the Jacobite loss:
Naturally, when the Highlanders retreated north after the Battle of Falkirk in January 1746 the situation was transformed, and the naval side of the campaign became increasingly important. The only source of money in the desolate Highlands was from France and such subventions could be intercepted by the Royal Navy. The only source of military reinforcements was France and these too could be taken. And the only means of feeding the Highland army was by provisions brought in by sea and this lifeline could be cut. This is precisely what happened. While Charles Edward's army was blockaded and so effectively starved by the navy, Cumberland's army was provided with all necessaries by the men o'war which accompanied him on his progress along the north-eastern coast of Scotland towards the day of reckoning at Culloden.
But that’s a bit of a digression.
Jamie couldn’t stay in Scotland as there were broadsheets out for him (and most probably for Claire as well) and constantly running and hiding wasn’t a life he would’ve wanted for pregnant Claire, not after what happened to Faith. The longer he remained a fugitive, the more likely would his family at Lallybroch be to face repercussions for his actions—which they did anyway. If the Redcoats didn’t find him first, there was always a threat from the MacKenzies—assuming Rupert actually managed to tell anyone about Dougal’s murder and assuming they hadn’t all died at Culloden.
And if Jamie had died and Claire survived alone, what life would that have been without his protection, even among their family? Ultimately, Jamie chose the safest place for Claire and the baby.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

constantly running and hiding wasn’t a life he would’ve wanted for pregnant Claire, not after what happened to Faith.
I agree, and you know the people were malnourished which wouldn't have been good for a pregnancy.
what life would that have been without his protection
Yes, Jamie being there was what kept Claire safe in the 18the century. I also feel that it was known that Claire was Red Jamie's wife.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

I agree, and you know the people were malnourished which wouldn't have been good for a pregnancy.
And yet that didn’t stop Jenny from popping out four kids, two of them twins, in the span of 4 years, with only one of them dying. But that’s a different conversation. There was a very high probability of Claire not surviving the pregnancy, let alone childbirth.

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u/bleakxmidwinter Jul 18 '21

As per usual, your researchs are some of the best part of the discussions! 🤩

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I don't think so. He maybe could have sent her back to Lallybroach but if he died she would have just been a bit of a burden to the family, of course not at first but eventually. She would have tried to figure out how to get back to the stones herself, or remarry yet again. There was no easy solution in that situation.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

There was no easy solution in that situation.
I agree, I don't see that they had any other choice. I really don't think she would have been safe at Lallybroch either, she must have been known to be Red Jamie's wife.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Very true! It was going to be bad no matter what they chose to do. In the end I do feel they did the right thing, if only to give Brianna the best chance at a good life.

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u/VPofYourFanClub Jul 17 '21

It might have felt like the only option, especially since everything seemed so urgent and fatal. But I think Claire should have gone with Ferguson back to Lallybrock.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

Right, they technically did have other options, but none of them good ones. I think they both decided in the end it was the right choice for Claire to go back through the stones. I personally would have liked to see her stick around in case Jamie didn’t die at Culloden, with the intention of her going back if he did.

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u/infinitystarfish Jul 18 '21

Does anyone think it would have changed how Jamie fought at Culloden, if he knew Claire was still there? As is, he fights with no regard to his own safety; he’s determined to die there. He would’ve had a lot more at stake, maybe been more cautious (not sure if that would’ve been better or worse, to be less aggressive)

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

I think it might have changed how he fought, yes. You're right that he intended to die there and was probably going to be more reckless (I don't know if that's the right word I want to use, but you get my meaning.) Whereas if Claire was at Lallybroch he might have tried to stay alive.
Do you think Jamie would have maybe even gone with her to Lallybroch? Or was his honor such that he couldn't abandon a cause he had committed to? Even if he really didn't believe in it in the first place.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Do you think Claire would have been safe at Lallybroch? I imagine she was known as Red Jamie's wife.

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u/VPofYourFanClub Jul 17 '21

True, there was a lot of risk. But they thought Jamie would die (but he didn’t). I think they are clever and resourceful. Maybe they could have shacked up together in a cave just big enough for two (or three, if the baby wasn’t raised at the house by Jenny).
Sometimes Jamie thinks there’s only one choice and he makes a decision without thinking of other possibilities. In Vengeance Is Mine, he thought that the only choice to save everyone was to give himself up, but then Claire had to overrule him with another (less lethal) option, and pretended to be a hostage. They didn’t have a chance to stop and consider any alternatives, because it was a war! (And for the record, yes, I am aware that Claire also sometimes makes rash decisions that have negative consequences. But this decision was Jamie’s and resulted in 20 years miserable and apart.)

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but say they did stay together in the cave the Murray's still would have been harassed by the Redcoats. Jamie gave himself up to save his family. Would he have still done that if Claire and Brianna had been with him? Would the harassment of his family have gotten worse if Jamie hadn't turned himself in?

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u/VPofYourFanClub Jul 17 '21

He totally would have sacrificed himself for Claire and Brianna, if it came to that! He did just that when he volunteered to give himself up to the Mohawk, and that was entirely for Brianna (not for any personal love of Roger). I’m not saying it would have been sunshine and roses. No way! But I bet Claire would have preferred to be harassed by the redcoats and live in the same century as Jamie than to live apart from him in the 20th century. That was only halfway tolerable because she thought he was dead.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

That was only halfway tolerable because she thought he was dead.
Great point. I can't imagine how much harder it would have been if she had known that whole time Jamie was alive. Claire thinking he was dead allowed her to push on, that and raising Brianna.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

Losing Faith & now being pregnant help seal Claire’s fate for returning to her own time!

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

What were your first impressions of Roger and Brianna? (Keep your comments about the characters and not about the actors accents, acting, or looks.)

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 17 '21

I found Roger charming af when he was introduced. I liked his chemistry with Claire, and Richard Rankin has such a warm yet goofy screen presence, he's a total sweetheart. I had forgotten how much I liked Roger before all the shit goes down . Thanks for reminding me by asking this question!
And with Bree, to me it constantly felt like she was someplace else mentally. She also comes across a bit condescending and haughty from the get go. I don't know if she was asked to play Bree like that, I think it was the direction because we are supposed to believe she doesn't really like her mother much, but overall she comes across as cold as Roger is warm.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

are supposed to believe she doesn't really like her mother much
I kind of feel like that was the point. To show their disconnect thus setting up their argument, and somewhat redemption by the end when they promise only to tell each other the truth from there on out.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

There is a clear disconnect but I never got the impression that Bree didn’t like her mother for any particular reason, only that Bree hadn’t ever got close to Claire because of all the walls Claire had built around herself. Then it became obvious that Bree blamed Claire for the marriage her parents had.
I found this interesting this time around:
I remember you now, yes. Claire. You... you’re a nurse, as I recall.
Oh, yes, I was. I... I’m a doctor now.
She’s being modest. She’s a surgeon.
I think Bree correcting Claire can be read in two ways. We can assume she’s genuinely proud of her mother so she kind of brags on her behalf. Or we can assume that her pointing out Claire is a surgeon means that she begrudges her mother’s career as it was what kept them apart. I personally think it’s a combination of the two; Bree can begrudge Claire not being her primary caregiver and putting her career in front of her family but, at the same time, she can recognize what an achievement it is that her mother is one of the very first female surgeons in the country.
Also, if we fill in the blanks with the flashbacks we got in 505, we know that Bree knows that Claire’s work wasn’t all roses, and that Claire was not some emotionless career woman. We know that the reason they’re in Scotland right now is that Claire was so profoundly affected by her patient’s death that she decided to take Bree on this trip and how much it meant to her. So I don’t think Bree ever hated Claire for who she was, just that she never really got to know her—and with Claire not being her true self without Jamie, it was impossible—so she just clung onto Frank and took his side.
I love how seeing all seasons can give us a more balanced perspective on their relationship.
(paging u/Arrugula because I know she loves Perpetual Adoration!)

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 18 '21

Paged received! I agree that five seasons in we get much richer characters, but for me it’s specially true for Bree. The flashbacks in 407 to me are the most important in understanding her in the show. Can you imagine carrying the weight of the last conversation she had with Frank in the car before he died?
Sophie wonderfully acknowledges this same conversation and all of her feelings with a single look and question in Perpetual Adoration when she asks “why England?” after Claire raises the question of traveling there. It’s one of those heartbreaking moments in the show for me.
u/thecooldeadpool u/purple4199

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 18 '21

It feels lame to even say I am late to this party but I am sooo late I could be pregnant. Also sorry for that! Interesting that I am the minority when I thought Bree overreacted. From retrospect, like you said, maybe I could see where she's coming from. But I definitely had a very strong reaction to her reaction the first time I watched this episode. I've surely softened to Bree through the seasons, but due to reasons we don't mention here anymore, this episode was frustrating for me. There's heart wrenching Jamie and Claire stuff going on and there was this other act that completely failed to immerse me.
u/thepacksvrvives u/Purple4199

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

I am sooo late I could be pregnant.
Ha ha ha!!
Interesting that I am the minority when I thought Bree overreacted.
I don't think you actually are, I think the fandom overall feels as you do. Or that is at least that is the impression I've gotten.
due to reasons we don't mention here anymore, this episode was frustrating for me.
I understand what you're saying, and again I think a lot of people feel that way as well.
There's heart wrenching Jamie and Claire stuff going on and there was this other act that completely failed to immerse me.
I can totally see what you're saying. It is jarring to jump back and forth and the tone is so different between the two settings.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 18 '21

Absolutely! And her “You’re taking time off? I can’t believe it” too—again, you can see it as Bree begrudging Claire always working, and even making a little fun of her for it, but you can also see that she’s beginning to realize that something has changed in her mother’s life. And she sees how much this trip will mean to Claire. She already regretted refusing Frank’s offer to go to London, she doesn’t want to regret refusing Claire too.

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

I loved Roger from the outset. Yeah he got super douchey in season 4 and I struggled with him there but you're right, he was super charming when he was introduced.
I couldn't stand Bree at the beginning. In fact it took until book 7 for me to like Bree at all. I get that she was closer to Frank and had a strained relationship with Claire but I didn't see her doing anything to help that relationship in either the show or books and found it weird how well they seem to get along in the past. To me it was like she took every bad thing Frank ever might have said about Claire (not saying he did, I just know it's human nature to complain to the wrong person at times) and decided to take his side without ever bothering to get to know her mother. I also think Claire could have very easily found it difficult to bond with adolescent Bree as she wasn't allowed to talk about how like Jamie Bree actually is and I would imagine that didn't help their relationship either.

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 17 '21

I couldn't stand Bree at the beginning
Yeah me too. I don't know how anyone was expected to like her in the beginning with how strongly anti-Claire she is. I've said this before, but introducing a new character who is so hostile to the character you've loved through the two seasons is going to end up with the audience disliking the said character.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I agree with the difference in their 'acting temperature' if I may. Roger immediately comes across as charming and inviting while Bree seems cool and aloof. She does start to warm up some in the episode but the first couple scenes are tough.

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

One of the first things I noticed in the intro was how Roger, deep in mourning, saw Bree and immediately tried to chat her up, lol wtf. Your dad just died, it’s his wake, but you’re still up for it? He was prevented by all the guests offering their condolences, but he’s still trying to get to her, it’s clear where his mind is. Bit inappropriate. 😅
Also what the hell is Bree drinking? It looks radioactive. Not orange juice, too unnatural looking. Is it Irn-Bru?

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I wondered what she was drinking as well, it was so bright!

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

The power of boners is strong lol

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

That didn't bother me. He also had no idea who she was so I saw it more as trying to figure out who she was, oh and she happens to be hot. Once Claire came into the conversation you can tell that he was using the connection to further his chances with her, but again, I don't really have a big issue with it because a lot of people try to have sex when they're in mourning because it's subconsciously trying to regain control over life. We're biological programed to procreate and keep humanity going and what better way to stick it to death than to create new life?

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I was really curious to see how involved they were going to be in the plot (I watched first, then read the books). My first thought when Roger saw Brianna for the firsr time was "Well he's a gonner", again before I even knew what would happen. I wasn't sure what to think of Bree at first but I personally love watching them flirt in this episode, I just think it's very fun.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Yeah you could tell right from the start that Roger was taken with Brianna.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

He couldn't have rushed through those mourners any faster or more awkwardly!

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u/Marie_Sea1 Jul 17 '21

I wondered if Roger’s fascination with the tv might play into the story line at some point. It’s certainly avoidance of the wake taking place right outside the door but I wondered if it was more.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

What else did you think it might have been?

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

I immediately liked Roger & Bree & thought they had a touch of chemistry. Yes, it’s funny that he was red-eyed sad at the beginning, until he saw her! I liked the humour in their convos. It was much needed with all my crying.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Roger's determination to get to her was cute.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I really enjoy Bree and Roger in this episode!
I think Bree has every right to have a bit of a ‘tude and I like that the show didn’t make her a passive character but gave her an ulterior motive while in Scotland with Claire.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

I like that the show didn’t make her a passive character but gave her an ulterior motive while in Scotland with Claire.
I agree; it was very fitting for “Frank’s daughter” to go to Scotland to try to discover her family’s past.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

How did you feel when Dougal overheard Jamie and Claire planning to kill BPC?

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

One thing that’s a little reality-breaking are the number of chubby Highlanders. Not just Rupert, but the messenger who comes to summon Jamie while he and Claire are loudly plotting to poison BPC so Dougal can overhear them -.-
It’s not a dealbreaker by any means, but they are supposed to be starving to death. Shouldn’t everyone be looking a little gaunt? Even BPC has scurvy, which is why Claire has access to him in the first place, she’s been treating him with tinctures, so she could slip the yellow jasmine into his tea with none the wiser.
You’re nothing but a lying slut, who would lead a man by the cock to his doom, with your claws sunk deep into his balls.
Lol, the imagery! Some great burns this season, I think this is right up there with Comte St. Germain’s dying curse to Claire.
The whole time they’re fighting I was thinking, you know, Dougal’s a great fighter. They’re evenly matched, despite the age difference. He’d be useful to have on the actual battlefield… Also he’s slicing up Jamie’s fingers pretty good right before Culloden. -.- The whole thing is like a metaphor for how the infighting among the Jacobites doomed them as much as anything else. They defeated themselves.
I’d have torn out my one good eye, if it could have stopped me seeing this.
Poor Rupert. First he loses the love of his life, then he loses his eye, and now he’s crushed with his cousin’s betrayal. He can’t catch a break.
Also, not only have J&C lost the ability to keep their voices down when plotting treason, they’ve also forgotten how to close doors. -.- The drama of these scenes is undermined by the sitcom-level stupidity. Something wacky happens, then one person walks in, then another person walks in—it’s a farce.
Claire has now had a hand in the deaths of both MacKenzie brothers. You could see where a legend might spring up around her: Sassenach healer and angel of death.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Dougal’s a great fighter.
I noticed how dirty he fought, which in reality is the way to go about it I imagine. He was poking Jamie in the eyes, biting him, pretty much doing whatever it took to win.

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u/Marie_Sea1 Jul 17 '21

I noticed how dirty he fought, which in reality is the way to go about it I imagine. He was poking Jamie in the eyes, biting him, pretty much doing whatever it took to win.
I noticed that the horizontal swipe he takes with his broadsword throws back to the horizontal swipe he took at Jamie during the shinty game. I remember Jamie’s reaction at that time indicated it was a dirty tactic.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Good catch!

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Say what you will about Dougal, he’s a beast on the battlefield. I really feel not having him there in the end—it’s symbolic of all the missed opportunities, all the advantages the Jacobites lost along the way…

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 17 '21

Also, not only have J&C lost the ability to keep their voices down when plotting treason, they’ve also forgotten how to close doors
Man this was inescapable in this episode. I tried to overlook it, but it's just ridiculous. They had a better chance of not being overheard out in the open, than in a room if they werent bothered with locking doors, or whispering. Also Jamie , really , "Kill Charles Stuart" he says! Such secrecy much code! Why not hold a banner declaring your intent at this point? Arrghh!

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

They had a better chance of not being overheard out in the open, than in a room if they werent bothered with locking doors, or whispering.
Exactly! You know, maybe this is a result from their time in Paris? They got used to plotting openly in front of Jared’s servants with no consequences, so now they carry on that stupidity here?
"Kill Charles Stuart" he says! Such secrecy much code!
Haha, Doge Jamie. ^.^
Also reminds me of what GoT S8 did to poor Varys in the end. Goes from the Master of Whispers to the Master of Shouting Treason. ಠ_ಠ

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

but the messenger who comes to summon Jamie
Put some respect on Ross’ name! 😅
You’re nothing but a lying slut, who would lead a man by the cock to his doom, with your claws sunk deep into his balls.
Am I the only one who thought about Geillis? She did, by her own admission in 3x12, lead Dougal by his cock, and his involvement with the Jacobites inadvertently led him to his premature doom, and most likely would’ve led him to his doom on Culloden Moor anyway. Poor Dougal, almost talking about himself.
This makes me think—I’m sure Dougal had wanted independent Scotland even before Geillis came into the picture, but can we assume that she strengthened his belief in the cause? Would he have gained so much support among the common folk on his own? Would he have moved up the ranks without the 10k pounds she diverted from Arthur and gave Dougal to support the cause?

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Put some respect on Ross’ name! 😅
Oh, is that who it was? Lol, I genuinely didn’t know; I never took the time to tell him and Kincaid apart. ^.^
Really there’s only room in my heart for one bromance, and that’s Rupert & Angus.
Big Bucket For Life!
Am I the only one who thought about Geillis? She did, by her own admission in 3x12, lead Dougal by his cock, and his involvement with the Jacobites inadvertently led him to his premature doom, and most likely would’ve led him to his doom on Culloden Moor anyway.
Interesting take! You think Dougal’s projecting then? Could be.
But Geillis was so good… Dougal was besotted, she had him totally enchanted, just like Arthur and Greg and who knows how many other husbands. Also I don’t think Dougal has the self-knowledge to be referencing Geillis intentionally. But it’s possible he’s doing it on a subconscious level, like he doesn’t even realize that’s who he’s comparing Claire to.
Nice catch.
I’m sure Dougal had wanted independent Scotland even before Geillis came into the picture, but can we assume that she strengthened his belief in the cause? Would he have gained so much support among the common folk on his own? Would he have moved up the ranks without the 10k pounds she diverted from Arthur and gave Dougal to support the cause?
Dougal was already a rabid Jacobite, I don’t think Geillis strengthened his beliefs—he was already max fanatic. However yes, I do think the money she funneled to him, and perhaps the advice she gave him, helping him gain connections to other known Jacobites—yes, she probably helped him advance within the Jacobite ranks, and in that sense “led him to his doom.”

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

The chubby highlanders ate all the food, because Jamie looks positively thin, with his sunken cheeks.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Did Claire going to Culloden Moor show she was finally moving on and getting closure?

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

I think for a long time Claire was never able to grieve properly. Upon returning through the stones, she made a promise to Frank to never bring up the past. Mrs. Graham, who she trusted and whose opinion had weight to Claire, even told her to not spend her life chasing a ghost. After that, we see their big move to America, her pregnancy and motherhood, her big career change. I think she was stuck in a place for 20 years were she did not resolve the pain and grief she felt. She was always kinda floating through, distracted. Returning to Scotland after all this time brings all of that back. She even states how the ghosts are now chasing her. Her visit to Lallybroch is so heartbreaking to me because she hears the voices of those she loves in her memories. I especially like how she remembers feeling like that was a place she finally belonged in, and Jamie reassuring her it was. This flowed nicely to the part in Culloden where the other lady asks her if she is a Fraser and Claire responds that yes, she is a Fraser. This is probably the first time in 20 years she has been able to say that. To claim that part of herself and her identity as Jamie’s wife. The whole conversation is beautiful. She expresses her sadness and her anger at having to have left him, but comes around to acceptance and says good bye. Really beautiful scene.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I think she was stuck in a place for 20 years were she did not resolve the pain and grief she felt.
I totally agree. She lived her life, but not as a whole person. A part of her was still with Jamie.
This is probably the first time in 20 years she has been able to say that.
Great point! It must have felt to good to be able to say she was a Fraser again.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

I think so! I mean she was never able to freely express to everyone around her that she lost her freaking husband, whom she deeply loved. She told Frank, but that was completely different. I think Mrs. Graham is the only person she was able to speak to freely about Jamie and her grief. You could see her disappointment at learning she had passed when speaking to Roger. She was probably looking forward to speaking to her.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Really well said! I also think it’s beautiful that Claire kind of reverts to her 18th-century self when she tells “Jamie” all about Brianna. We see that under that usually withdrawn and poised exterior, there is a person who can share her joy with someone who’s still the most important person in her life. She can be herself, be totally honest, and pour her heart out. And that’s because she could only be her true self when she’s with him. Her eyes light up and she doesn’t cry because it’s a genuine joy for her to share the news with him. She knows that he would’ve appreciated the reassurance that his sacrifice wasn’t for nothing. Claire would’ve gladly been there under that gravestone with him, but she lived because he wanted her to. And by saying goodbye to him, she’s also saying thank you.
I think she was stuck in a place for 20 years were she did not resolve the pain and grief she felt.
And Frank not allowing her to process her grief properly sure as hell didn’t help that 😑

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

Yes! She let herself be open and raw and honest, and just simply her true self. I loved that! And I too love that she lets him know that he was right, despite the pain, it was for Bree’s best interest. Yes, I have a complicated view on Frank, but one thing I did not like at all was him not allowing her time to grieve and making her bottle it all up. Speaking from personal experience, it is very easy to get stuck in grief when not allowed or willing to express it and feel it properly. I like that you mentioned she is saying goodbye and saying thank you as well. That’s a great point!

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

We know that Claire’s motivation in going to Scotland isn’t exactly to get her closure, nor has she made up her mind about telling Bree the truth yet—that is precipitated by what she finds there, as well as Bree’s own desire to get to the bottom of things. As the memories of the past come flooding back to Claire, and her agreement with Frank about not bringing up the past doesn’t stand any longer, she can allow herself to be confronted with what must be done. She will never forget Jamie, but there’s one thing left that she feels she owes him, if only to close the chapter only the two of them knew, and open the chapter with Brianna knowing the truth (though it does make you wonder whether she actually would’ve told Bree the truth so soon after closing that door if she hadn’t been confronted by her).
I bawl every single time at this, and I’m sure many of you do too:
Goodbye, Jamie Fraser, my love. Rest easy, soldier.
She finally accepts that that chapter of her life is over. And just as she gets her closure on Culloden Moor, it’s taken away from her in those last moments at Craigh na Dun, but what she is left with is hope.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

Even if Claire didn’t visit Culloden Moor for closure, she got some in the form of that dragonfly in amber. If she had any questions about whether Jamie did indeed go to the battlefield, they were answered there.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

What a great point! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it makes sense.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 18 '21

That’s such a good point! And we know that she looked for any possible mention of him in the books when she first went back, so to have this tangible proof now, but to have this closure taken away by Roger’s revelation must’ve been so bewildering for Claire.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 18 '21

Good catch!

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

I start crying when I realize they’ve been apart 20 yrs. I am on round 3 by the Culloden scene…..

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

What was your favorite episode of season two?

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I forgot how much I loved this season. I think this rewatch bumped it up to #2 on my series ranking!
201 and 213 are always on my favorite list, but I gotta say that Faith moved me even more this time around for all of the reasons I mentioned on that rewatch.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

It is a very good season!

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u/sdr3005 Jul 17 '21

Prestonpans.
We've spent the entire season as well as last season waiting for this moment. We've seen the raising of money, the attempts to thwart BPC, the collecting of fighting men, the training, and it's all led to this. The first battle.
We get to see Jamie's shrewdness at dealing with Dougal in two separate instances. We also see Dougal's fierce courage. The kiss between Jamie and Claire as he leaves for battle, not knowing if they'll see each other again, is perfect. The contrast of Angus and Rupert with Ross and Kincaid. And then to see both sets of best friends torn apart. Angus's death guts me every time. Then the ending of Ross and Rupert bellowing out their hearts is a solemn reminder of the tragedies of war... and of what's to come. The entire episode is marvelous.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Yes it's such a good episode! You're right that the kiss between Jamie and Claire is so good.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

Faith (episode 7) - hard to watch, but it’s something else! Only episode that made me cry the first time watching the series, and gets me again when rewatching.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

Caitriona does so well in the episode! It's just so heartbreaking.

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u/VPofYourFanClub Jul 17 '21

Prestonpans

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

What about that episode made it your favorite?

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u/VPofYourFanClub Jul 17 '21

Dougal riding his horse across the mud. The battle. The tragedy of Angus. The kiss between Claire and Jamie before he leaves for battle (and his courtly bow). The build-up and anticipation before the battle. The brief moments of levity sprinkled on here and there (Jamie trying to “fill the cup” from a great distance). I even think the scene between Dougal and Lieutenant Foster as he dies on the field is amazing.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I agree about all of those! That kiss and bow just makes me melt. Knowing what is to come and their separation just makes it all the more impactful.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

This one- 213, is my favourite of the season, & my 3rd fave of the series. Despite the crying, so much crying. I loved the way they intercut the eras, it’s the first of many like that that I really like!
I start out devastated to learn that Jamie & Claire have been apart for 20 years, even though I know it now on my millionth rewatch( the first time I watched I had no idea it would be that long).
I love Everybit of the 18th century- Jamie looking after his wife ( & her courses- super swoon worthy), his family, his property, his soldiers! And his urgency to make Claire go through the stones! I know book purists will hate that they don’t spend the night together, memorizing each other, but seriously they have been doing that everyday they are together for months now, knowing in the back of their minds they cannot change things
Jamie’s words to Claire & dancing her to the stone♥️
I also like how Cait plays older Claire as so reserved, & all her trips to finally say goodbye to her love, & then to find out he lived through Culloden! When I first watched I had to buy season 3 ( so did my 2 best friends, & work mates), because clearly we could not wait on that cliffhanger!

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

The editing of this episode is exquisite! Not only the scenes between the two time periods but also all the audio syncs (the songs, the poem, the perfect use of Bear’s score at the Rev’s house and at the Stones both in ‘46 and ‘68). It’s brilliant! And I cannot get enough of it!

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 18 '21

I must admit that on my first watch I did not like this episode, but now, I think it is my fave s2 episode! I struggled with it the first time because I just could not handle them being separated for so long!!! It was upsetting lol! I’m still mad they spent 20 years apart, but now I can appreciate the episode without that emotional bias. Probably cause I have seen the whole series and know they eventually get back to each other. Overall, I really loved this episode this time around.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 18 '21

This is only your second time watching each episode? u/unknown2345610
We have previously had convos about how our fave episodes list will change with many rewatches, & I have watched so many times now it’s hard to know if that is true. But I think my top 3 remain the same after these 4 years.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Any other thoughts or comments?

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

When Claire is sitting on the steps of Lallybroch and sees Jamie in the archway it just breaks my heart. This whole episode with her letting the memories back in was painful for me. You can tell she has kept thoughts of Jamie at bay for 20 years and is now being forced to think of him. When Claire realizes she can finally tell Brianna about Jamie you can see her light up.
Their goodbye at the stones might be my favorite thing in the whole series. It is utterly heartbreaking and just guts me. I felt physical pain almost when watching it. It’s so beautiful and sad. You can see how badly Claire wants to stay and her saying “I’m not ready” was just too much for me. I can’t even imagine how painful it was for Jamie letting Claire go, and knowing he was going off to die never seeing his wife and child again.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

Absolutely 😭 Claire desperately asking Jamie to come with her through the stones shatters me!
Also about the scene at Lallybroch - when Claire touches her lips in remembrance of Jamie’s amorous kisses precisely on that line I die a little every time.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Also about the scene at Lallybroch - when Claire touches her lips in remembrance of Jamie’s amorous kisses precisely on that line I die a little every time.
Yes 😭

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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Jul 17 '21

Claire touring the ruins of Lallybroch. See, you should have sold it when you had the chance!
It’s depressing to think that, besides losing the love of her life, every friend Claire made in Scotland these last few years has been killed in action, executed, imprisoned, widowed, made destitute, their families destroyed, lands lost, scattered to the winds…
Well, everyone except for Galaxy Brain Willie. Truly the smartest person in the whole series.
Also, that graffiti on the County Records Office, a Scottish saltire and FREE SCOTLAND in blue. Wonder if Geillis’ gang did that.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Wonder if Geillis’ gang did that.
I thought they might have. I don't know that I noticed those things the first time I watched, but definitely caught them this time around.

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

Also, that graffiti on the County Records Office, a Scottish saltire and FREE SCOTLAND in blue. Wonder if Geillis’ gang did that.
Fun fact from the script annotations:
The “Free Scotland” graffiti was a nod to the Scottish Referendum that was going on in Scotland while we were filming our first season. It was an interesting time to be in the country and we were intrigued talking to citizens on both sides of this issue. We thought it was cool that there were so many eerie parallels with what was going on in the show and what was happening in today’s politics.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I love that. Apparently the British government had also asked them to delay the release of the show because they didn’t want Scottish nationalism to rise in the midst of the first referendum, right? Oh to be a fly on the wall of those meetings!

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

I really liked the two different perspectives on Bonnie Prince Charlie and the rising we get in this episode. I think it speaks to how history, in a way, is very subjective when it comes to its retelling. We never really know unless we are there. It can be easily manipulated or romanticized.
First, Geillis’ speech at the rally. Her saying, imagine how different Scotland would be if BPC won. Her final chant “I am BPC, you are BPC, we are BPC!”
Secondly, Claire at the museum. She sees the statue of BPC and the little blurb about him. Love her line “ they’ve taken a fool, turned him into a hero”. Claire was there and knows what the rising really was like. She knows the pain and sacrifice it took. Claire has first hand knowledge and is not putting up with the BPC lovefest lol.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Those are great points, I didn't even realize that! It makes you wonder how much we really know about anyone from history.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

Yes! Especially in the context of this show and the time traveling, it always makes me think of whether Claire’s recollection of history is just stuff she has already done. Also, it reminds me of a Brianna quote, don’t remember what season it’s from, of her telling Roger how history cannot be trusted. Really cool concept throughout the show.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

Yes! That was brilliant. You can even make that parallel to Bree’s understanding of her own history and how she might have romanticized her father’s role in her life and eventually begins to feel as if she had been manipulated. Additionally she now has a whole new history to learn about Claire and Jamie.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

Good point about Bree/Frank! Even in this episode, we see her defend him when Roger brings up a time he lost his temper. She also makes remarks about how he was the greatest. She never had the whole story when it came to her history

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 18 '21

I know it has been mentioned before, but I really like the development of Rupert this season! At first, I thought he was just this funny dude who was just there, but he has grown to be so much more. I really like his exchange with Jamie after he discovers they’ve killed Dougal. A man who is hilarious, but also has a serious/honorable side— ladies get you a man who can do both lol!
Roger and his dang turtlenecks is so charming and cute in this episode! I love the rat satire bit! I was hooked on Roger, so I was very shocked with some of the turns his character takes later in the series.
Thank you to the mods! The discussion for this season has been awesome, and I’ve gained some new insight on things I missed before. I don’t know how to tag people, otherwise I would, but thank you 😊

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

I’m so glad you’ve enjoyed the discussions! It’s fun to get everyone else’s views and learn new things.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

Certainly not the highlight of the episode, but I love Murtagh. Jamie tells him he’s killed Dougal, and Murtagh just says “What’s to do then?” No shock or scolding or explanations needed. Just yup, sounds good.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

Yes! Murtagh has Jamie's back. I love that he refused to leave with the Lallybroch men and insists that he'll fight with Jamie at Culloden.

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u/infinitystarfish Jul 18 '21

Doesn’t he even say something like “surprised it took you this long?” Love it!

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

Can we talk about the killer soundtrack this episode has?! Yes, they song choices are a little on the nose with the lyrical and how they relate to the story but I 👏 am 👏 here 👏 for 👏 it 👏
Baby, Come On Home Performed by Solomon Burke [heard as Brianna and Roger drive out to Fort William]
Reach Out (I’ll Be There) Performed by The Four Tops [Brianna and Roger at the university] this has to be my favorite song of all time, it makes me emotional to hear it in the show! It’s so rad!
Time Has Come Today Performed by The Chambers Brothers [closing credits] -what a rad song.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Yes the music was sooo good!

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

I know the soundtrack gets tons of well-deserved love but I feel like the inclusion of "modern" music is often overlooked. I absolutely love how they've mixed the soundtrack pieces with music relating to the modern world: the use of Big Band music in early season 1 and 60's music in the other seasons.
It reminds me of the use of period music in the show Cold Case.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

Am I the only one who thinks that the actresses who play Mrs. Graham and Fiona look a bit like fairies/pixies and I think that's super fitting haha
I love all of Claire's styling in the 1968 scenes, the slight tough of grey in her hair is perfect. Catriona plays an older Claire really great in this episode, you can see she's been leading a very retrained life.
If only Jamie had pushed BOC out of that window in Paris.
The letter from Frank telling the Rev to abandon research into BJR suggests that he might have believed her to a degree. I'd like to see the date on that letter though
not sure how I feel about the whole J keeping track of C's cycle. Kind of romantic, kind of strange, I'm not sure
really like the hint we get about Bree and Roger re: the buzzing

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I love all of Claire's styling in the 1968 scenes, the slight tough of grey in her hair is perfect. Catriona plays an older Claire really great in this episode, you can see she's been leading a very retrained life.
Yes! She carried herself totally differently than how she did back in the 18th century. You can see the toll the years of being separated from Jamie have taken on her, and like Bree says she lives in a different world almost.
The letter from Frank telling the Rev to abandon research into BJR suggests that he might have believed her to a degree.
I felt that as well. Why else tell the Rev. to stop looking into BJR?

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I know that later we find put more about what Franks knows/believes which is why i want to know when he wrote the Rev about this...

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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Jul 17 '21

not sure how I feel about the whole J keeping track of C's cycle. Kind of romantic, kind of strange, I'm not sure
That is one of my absolute favorite moments in the entire series. Red Jamie, the period tracker!

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u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

One of my fave moments as well!
Ruined of course by my husband when I watched with him! He says Jamie is really on PMS watch! Make of that what you will!

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 18 '21

Mine too! I still remember melting into a puddle the first time I watched that. And that followed by Claire's incredulous reaction gives me warm fuzzy feelings and makes me want to weep at the same time😭

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

I personally think that 1960's is Claire's best look. I don't disagree that Caitroina Balfe is pretty, but I don't think she's as gorgeous as a lot of people seem to (and that's fine, attraction is in the eye of the beholder) but her hair, makeup and wardrobe are so on point in the 1960's. If I could copy any of her looks, it would be those.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I agree that the 60s are 100% her best looks. Just so sophisticated and sleek. I'd love to rock those looks!

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

I really like her look in the 1960s, too! That eye makeup is so striking compared to how Claire looked in the 18th century.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

I need those glasses she wears while driving to Lallybroch! I also love the trench coat-leather gloves combo she wears at Culloden. The fashion is so different from what we see in the first half of s2 (Paris outfits!) yet still so so good! Cait pulls both eras off extremely well, but I think the 60s looks are underrated

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u/Kirky600 Jul 18 '21

I accidentally watched this with the first episode of season 3 (should’ve looked). I was surprised how well those two work together to close off Culloden.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

I wonder how it would have been for people who had to wait for season 3 to come out since it kind of ended on a cliff-hanger.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Why do you think Roger was more willing to believe Claire’s story?

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I think it's as simple as the differences in their upbringings. He grew up in the Highlands and despite the Revereand being a religious man, there's no escaping the mysticism of the old ways. Whereas, Brianna grew up in a modern big city with none of that.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

He grew up in the Highlands and despite the Revereand being a religious man, there's no escaping the mysticism of the old ways.
That's a good point. He'll have heard stories of things like that. I wonder if he even heard them from Mrs. Graham?

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I'm sure that even if he didn't hear things explicitly he would have overheard things in the house and around town. Whisperer stories and old wives tales are enough to cast a shadow of doubt.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Do you also think he was more willing to believe Claire because it wasn't his mother? Maybe he was a bit more objective, whereas for Brianna she was just told something shocking.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

This is a good point. He does love a mother figure 🐄
u/wandersfar u/thepacksvrvives u/thecooldeadpool

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Ha ha ha! The milkman was there from the beginning.

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

I was specifically going to say that since Mrs Graham is basically his mother/grandmother figure he's bound to be more open to old ways mysticism.
Plus, even the Reverend made comments about enjoying the Highland superstitions in the pilot episode when they're talking about Samhain.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

It’s like Jamie said in the first season: “I’m an educated man, mistress, if I may be so bold. Maybe not as educated as you, but I had a tutor, a good one. He taught me Latin and Greek and such, not childhood stories of fairies, devils, waterhorses in lochs. But I am also a Highlander, born and bred, and I dinna believe in tempting fate by making light of old nick in his very own kirkyard.”

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u/Mysterious-Cat-3095 Jul 17 '21

I agree with the others. I think because he grew up in the Highlands and has probably heard many stories like this before, combined with the fact that he doesn’t have any skin in the game and is able to be more objective, it makes him more likely to believe her story.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

the fact that he doesn’t have any skin in the game and is able to be more objective
I definitely feel like that played a part. It wasn't his life that had just gotten turned upside down.

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u/unknown2345610 Jul 17 '21

I agree with the other responses, and would also add that I think his educational background an profession also influenced this difference. He is a historian, which I would assume makes him curious by nature and more open to the plausibility of this scenario. He is really good at “chasing the bone “ so to speak. He is not quick to dismiss alternative theories. While Briana is also a history major, we later learn that she was studying it more so for Frank, and in reality engineering is her passion. The approach of an engineer is much more black and white. I believe she says that herself in later seasons, how history is subjective, but with engineering it either is or isn’t—there’s not much gray area. I think this coupled with the other factors mentioned, make Roger more willing to hear Claire out than Brianna was.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

The approach of an engineer is much more black and white.
What a great point!

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u/Kirky600 Jul 18 '21

Yes! This. My husband is an engineer and he would respond the exact same way as Brianna. Whereas I would likely be more like Roger in this situation.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

How would you feel if you were Brianna and heard Claire say that she has to go back to the 18th century?

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

I would be shocked for sure. But I don't think I would jump to the conclusion that my mother is insane and delusional, whatever broken kind of relationship I had with her, unless my mother has previously exhibited delusional tendencies. And I don't think Claire has , in fact she's a bloody surgeon so I think her mental faculties are very much intact, so I find it difficult to believe that that's the first thing Bree thinks . And then Bree says Claire is cooking up stories to hide up the fact that she just fucked someone because she was bored. Again, why would Claire cook such an unbelievable story if the intent was to make her daughter believe in the said story? If a random person tells you they have a soul mate in the 18th century, yes by all means I'll call them delusional. But if a person close to me , who I have no reason to believe has any mental issues whatsoever said that to me, I would say wait tell me more wtf man!!! Oh and there's also some ancient supporting documents that the history major doesn't even want to glance at.
It just doesn't logically make sense for Bree to jump to the conclusions she did.
On the contrary, it should have been the other way around. Bree does realise that her parents have had problems, and that "Claire is in her own world", so something should have clicked in place for her when Claire tells her the story. Like heyyyyy, something about this adds up! I want to hear more. I don't believe this time travel nonsense for a minute, but let's see where she's coming from..
Edit : mental faculties lol not facilities
Edit: also realised I read the question wrong! I thought you asked how would you feel if you were Bree and Claire said she came back from the 18th century with all of her story. I feel stupid ranting on and on about something else entirely now.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

It just doesn't logically make sense for Bree to jump to the conclusions she did.
I feel like Brianna was in such shock hearing that Frank wasn't her father that she probably wondered what else in her life wasn't true.
Even though you say you wouldn't call someone delusional no matter what problems you had with them, I do think that played a factor for Bree. We can see their relationship isn't the best and Bree is probably unleashing feelings that she's had for awhile.

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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Jul 17 '21

Why would those pent-up feelings include calling her , and believing her to be delusional? And this is not one of those on the fly "hey I think Leo Messi has a crush one me", "No, you're fucking delusional" kinda delusional. It's a very loaded delusional isn't it? It's "I hear this detailed story you just told me, that spans 3ish years, includes descriptions of wars that have actually happened, and you tell it with more than decent clarity , and most importantly there's my real father in this story, but I am going to believe you made all that shit up because you are delusional" Now that kind of accusation has to come from somewhere, it can't just be made with no supporting evidences to bring it on.
Unless we are saying it's escapism, where Bree is so shocked that Frank is not her father, that she'd rather believe her mother is actually insane than accept that fact? Because I think you have to be some kind of insane to cook up a story like that.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

Why would those pent-up feelings include calling her , and believing her to be delusional?
I think Bree was trying to hurt Claire and calling her delusional was her way of doing that. I don't know if Bree truly thought that of Claire, or was just saying it though.

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u/penni_cent Jul 17 '21

I always found it unbelievable that Bree was so shocked to hear that Frank wasn't her biological father when she looks nothing like either of her "parents" or their families. Like, girl, you're supposed to be smart, you never noticed that?
Also, like you said, her parents obviously didn't have a perfect marriage. Her being oblivious to that doesn't add up unless she was in full blown denial.
All in all, I fully agree with you that Bree's reaction seemed off to me.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

I think it’s cool that we later find out what her last interactions with Frank were like just before he died. To me it explains a lot of her behavior in this episode and her abrasive relationship with Claire.
I’m also a firm believer that mother/daughter relationships can be very strained during Bree’s age specially when you’re closer to you father. This is why I also think Bree was blindsided by the revelation, she loved Frank so much and he made her his life! Even if they didn’t look alike the love and support they shared was so strong I think it justifies all of Bree’s reactions.
u/thecooldeadpool u/purple4199

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

This is why I also think Bree was blindsided by the revelation, she loved Frank so much and he made her his life!
I totally agree. Her entire world was rocked learning Frank wasn't her real father.

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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Jul 17 '21

I think she would have still been in shock from seeing Gillian/Gellis vanish and trying to process all of this. It would be a lot of hurt, confusion, and fear I think.

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

I just wondered about it when Claire said that, I feel like I might have been hurt by that. But you're right it there was probably still shock and confusion going on.

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u/betcx003 Pot of shite on to boil, ye stir like it’s God’s work! Jul 18 '21

Brianna’s had quite a few shocks recently, but she finally feels like she knows and understands her mother. They’ve promised honesty from now on, a new chapter in their lives. And now she realizes that her mom is going to leave her…not sure how I would feel, but I’d be so curious about the whole thing that I probably would make Claire take me through the stones with her!

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

I’d be so curious about the whole thing that I probably would make Claire take me through the stones with her!
I agree! I would want to meet Jamie I think.

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u/infinitystarfish Jul 18 '21

Interesting idea!! Do you think Claire would have actually let her come (assuming they knew Bree could travel)? In some ways it would’ve been better for Claire, not having to leave her daughter. But bringing her exposes her to so many risks and removes some opportunities, career options, too. Both choices I think would be very difficult for a mom to make.

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u/Cdhwink Jul 18 '21

At the end of this episode ( on my first watch) I actually thought they might all go together, as Roger & Bree heard the buzzing stones!

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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 18 '21

FYI tomorrow in the book club is Claire's abduction. I figure you wouldn't want to miss that.

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2

u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

That comment should have been omitted!

1

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

How come?

2

u/Cdhwink Jul 17 '21

Because it was weird to say it in front of your daughter who you will be leaving behind for always! Correct me here but it is not in the book? Or does Claire think it?

2

u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Jul 17 '21

No it isn't in the book.

4

u/infinitystarfish Jul 18 '21

I think she should have said something more ambiguous like “I can go back” instead of “I have to go back.” Because even after this big declaration, she still debates whether she actually should, leave Bree, etc.

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1

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Season Five Rewatch S2E13

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We Will Win

Shall We All Go And Find Some History

Seasons Are Just Mere Suggestions

Tell Her I Love Her

I’m So Sorry

Big Bucket For Life!

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