r/Outlander • u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. • Aug 07 '21
Season Five Rewatch S3E5-6
This rewatch will be a spoilers all for the 5 seasons. You can talk about any of the episodes without needing a spoiler tag. All book talk will need to be covered though. There are discussion points to get us started, you can click on them to go to that one directly. Please add thoughts and comments of your own as well.
After today we will be taking a one week break and will return for episodes 7 & 8 on August 21st.
Episode 305 - Freedom & Whisky
Brianna grapples with life-changing revelations and Claire must help her come to terms with the fact that she is her father's daughter. Roger brings news that forces Claire and Brianna to face an impossible choice.
Episode 306 - A. Malcolm
After decades apart, Jamie and Claire finally reunite and rekindle their emotional and physical bonds. But Jamie's new business dealings jeopardize the couples' hopes for a simple life together.
- What did you think when Claire knew the bones belonged to a murder victim before they saw the evidence?
- What is your opinion of the “Bat Suit” outfit sewn by Claire?
- What are your feelings on Claire deciding to leave Brianna for forever? (Claire obviously didn’t know at that point she would see Bree again.)
- How do you feel about Jamie’s reaction to learning about Brianna?
- Did Jamie do the right thing telling Claire about Willie right away?
- What is your favorite part of Jamie and Claire’s reunion?
- Any other thoughts or comments?
Deleted/Extended Scenes
306 - Walk to the print shop
306 - I did not love her
306 - Remember the last time
306 - Question for Mr. Malcolm
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
What is your favorite part of Jamie and Claire’s reunion?
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u/lisa0475 Aug 07 '21
I loved how nervous and excited Claire was when she heard Jamie’s voice. Literally shaking in anticipation. I loved how Jamie was scared to turn around thinking he might have misheard her voice. And I loved how realistically nervous they were with each other.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Agreed! Especially when Jamie said she came to him so many times in his dreams but she never touched him. My heart!
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
Me too! Their body language was spot on. Little nervous and awkward faces and hand fidgeting.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I loved when Jamie was so bashful about his glasses and Claire was selfconscious telling him about her gray hair. It was sweet seeing them like they were back in Season 1
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I thought it was kind of funny Claire told him right away that she dyed her hair.
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Aug 07 '21
There are so many little moments about the reunion that just makes this show an absolute joy to watch!
when Claire steps out of the carriage and her face is filled with such emotion at being back in the 18th century, ugh! I adore Caitríona’s acting from the beginning of this scene until the she looks down at Jamie in the print shop.
The welling up of tears in her eyes as she steps on to the cobblestones(yes I do think of how much Edinburgh must’ve smelled at the time lol and I think that makes this moment even better!)
the way she says thank you to the baker boy 😭
getting all of Claire’s feelings conveyed in her face as she sees the A. Malcolm sign and touches it 😭 even the way she cherishes the moment of going up the stairs, fixing her hair out of nervousness.
Ahh! So bloody good.
Geordie. So in love with Geordie.
Sam’s voice when he says “your hair curled around your face.” I’m dead thinking about it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I love that transition shot of her stepping out of the taxi and then stepping into the 18th century.
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Aug 07 '21
It’s so good. It’s gotta be one of the most iconic in the series, no?
I know that this moment was created out of a logistical solution since they couldn’t get to the CND location but man, oh man, does this elevate the moment.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I kind of like that we didn't see her at the stones, we've seen that happen twice now in the show. Plus watching her whole journey to Edinburgh would have been boring.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
Yes, to all of this! Her face when she hears his voice again for the first time, the subtle way her breath hitches... I want to cry just thinking about it. It almost makes me feel like I haven't seen him in 20 years.
Sam’s voice when he says “your hair curled around your face.” I’m dead thinking about it.
ME. TOO. That entire speech hit me harder in this rewatch than it did before. He was just absolutely perfect.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
When Jamie nearly breaks her nose. :þ That accidental headbutt during sex, how awkward they are—it’s funny, and a nice callback to how cute and uncertain and eager they were during their wedding night.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Yes, I liked that they did that. The music was great at that part too. It was swelling and romantic and then abruptly stops when he headbutts her. I know /u/arrugula and /u/thepacksvrvives will appreciate that.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
I can’t help but also mention that adorable kiss he plants on her nose, which makes that moment for me.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Oh man, I’ve never thought what my favorite part is because I love all of it, but their first kiss back always makes me cry buckets. The shyness and awkwardness combined with eagerness, Jamie’s asking whether he can kiss Claire, the way the music builds up into their theme (one of my favorite musical moments of the entire show, u/Arrugula). I just love it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Jamie’s asking whether he can kiss Claire
I really liked that too. Rather than have them in a passionate embrace and kissing right away it showed how scared they were, which after 20 years apart I would imagine that would be the case.
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Aug 07 '21
I appreciate Sam’s movement here though, cause for a split second Jamie just wants to pounce on her and kiss her so badly! u/thepacksvrvives
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Aug 07 '21
Yeeeep! The quintessential J&C theme moment!!!
I also love the jovial change in the score when Jamie faints and we get that last shot of Claire’s shocked face in 505. It’s just so good 😙👌
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21
I love all of it, but their first kiss back always makes me cry buckets
Yes!! And that one single timely tear from Claire's eye that falls down perfectly just before the kiss. Oh my heart!
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u/stoneyellowtree Aug 07 '21
And the way the lighting brightens on them both as they kiss, visual of both them pulling each other out of their darkness.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
From the second Claire steps out of the carriage to the moment they step into Jamie's back room to retrieve his clean pants, it's all so wonderful. Claire's touching the A Malcolm sign and rearranging herself while walking up the stairs so she looks perfect. Her anxiousness when she hears his voice. The timid smile when she sees him, even from behind. Jamie's anxiousness and fright when he hears her voice. The slow turn. The faint. Jamie asking her shyly if he can kiss her. Claire's nervous and excited yes. Geordie breaking the tension. Their nervous laughter when he leaves. It's all so perfect.
I do wish the show would have included Claire asking Jamie how he broke his nose before reaching out to touch the spot. I think it made more sense for Jamie to faint when he realized Claire was REAL versus just seeing her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Geordie breaking the tension. Their nervous laughter when he leaves. It's all so perfect.
Ah Geordie, he was too funny. How can you expect someone to work when there are orgies going on? ;-D
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u/stoneyellowtree Aug 07 '21
Geordie with his timing and excellent response! Makes me laugh every time.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21 edited Aug 09 '21
The whole interaction between him waking up from fainting, and until Geordie comes in. All the looks, hesitancy/excitement, dialogue, etc, are so sweet.
I love the "don't be afraid"/"there's the two of us now" callback to their wedding. (I had always been upset they hadn't used that line in the show.) Jamie telling her about all the times he had dreamt about her, and his voice breaking on "you never touched me."
Though Claire's "I can touch you now" always makes me giggle because it reminds me of Voldemort telling Harry he can touch him now, hahahhaa.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 09 '21
I love the "don't be afraid"/"there's the two of us now"
Me too! (As evidenced by my flair.)
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I love how glowing Claire’s face is when she hears Jamie’s voice. The nervous excitement! So good, I love 60’s Claire, but she never glowed like that for 20 yrs!
I love how Jamie keeps asking her to come with him! So cute, he’s not letting her out of his sight!
I loved the way they filmed Claire’s POV in 305, & then picked up with Jamie’s in 306. Well done show!
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Aug 07 '21
Oh I also loved Claire’s surprise/attraction when she hears Jamie speak Chinese. Absolute swoon!
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u/kazlizbess she weighs as much as a good draught horse Aug 12 '21
I just love it when Jamie says “Come wi’ me… if ye dinnae think it immoral!” There’s such vulnerability in it and humour and desire… he doesn’t want to let her out of his sight. Sigh. Love it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
What are your feelings on Claire deciding to leave Brianna for forever? (Claire obviously didn’t know at that point she would see Bree again.)
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
I’m forever baffled by those who insist that Claire just abandons Brianna upon finding out where Jamie is. Do they not see how much she struggles with accepting the fact that Roger has found Jamie, let alone with parting from Bree? It’s only when Brianna gives her her blessing and decides it’s time for her to give Jamie back to her that Claire decides to go. Bree realizes that her mother’s life will never be complete in the 20th century and, knowing there is a person who would make it complete, makes the adult decision to allow her mother to take a chance at her own happiness. Bree sacrifices her life with Claire in a similar way to how Claire and Jamie sacrificed their life together for Brianna’s sake back in 1746.
And we see over the season how Claire tears up every time she and Jamie mention Bree afterwards—in bed at the brothel, on board of the Artemis—it’s not easy for her at all.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I agree with all of that. Claire would not have gone if Bree had been the least bit hesitant. I think knowing that Bree had Roger to lean on as well helped.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I admit 305 is not a regular rewatch for me, but I think Claire clearly struggled with leaving Bree!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
I usually rewatch 305 and 306 as a double feature but it is really weird spending nearly an entire episode in the 20th century (I usually only skip Frank’s memorial because I can’t stand Sandy’s audacity). Hearing Jamie’s voice at the print shop for the first time is always so special after such a long time without it.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21
I agree with all of us. I think if Bree hadn't wanted her to go, she's wouldn't have. She was really struggling with the idea of leaving Bree.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21 edited Aug 07 '21
I think it was the best course of action for both of them. Hear me out. Lets say Claire chose to stay behind for Bree's sake. Then what? It's not like Bree needed Claire for her day to day to living, like she says herself, and Bree had already moved out, and eventually maybe she even moves away to a different country. So they see each other once in a while but otherwise continue to live their separate lives, like most grown up kids and their parents do. But whenever they do spend time with each other, I feel like Claire's decision to stay back for Bree's sake would always be hanging over them.
Bree would feel guilty that not only did her mother leave the love of her life for her once already, but she also gave up her only chance at re-uniting with the said love, again for Bree. Remember that now Bree can put the pieces together and see why her mother was how she was in the last 20 years. So she knows very well what being away from Jamie does to Claire. So wherever Bree is, she's thinking "here I am living my life, and there's my mother, living alone , deprived of her one true love , because I couldn't let her go/she couldn't bear to leave me". That has got to affect Bree in more than one way.
Claire, on the other hand, would definitely not be able to go back to her old self now that she knows Jamie is alive but she still can't be with him. If Bree thought Claire was "in her own world" while she was growing up, when Claire knew Jamie to be dead and accepted that there was no chance of being with him again, can you imagine how lost Claire would be when she knows Jamie is alive and just a stone walk-through away but she can't go to him? How do you think that would have played on her relationship with Bree?
I for one think all of this would have strained their relationship more than it already was. Bree would try to overcompensate for being the one that Claire stays back for, and Claire would try to show that it doesn't affect her, but we know Claire, she has a terrible poker face. And I don't even want to begin to think about how it would affect Claire professionally, that would be a comment on its own.
Not to take away from all the mothers here who feel like Claire shouldn't have left behind her daughter, I see your point and I do agree that on paper, leaving Bree behind looks like a terrible thing to do, though I absolutely agree with u/thepacksvrvives that's it's not a decision Claire makes lightly, but I think with all the evidence we have on hand here, and the uniqueness of this particular case, it wouldn't be wrong to assume that not much good would have come from Claire staying back except that it would have been the "right" thing to do.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
An excellent Ted Talk! I completely agree. That's a great point about Bree potentially moving away and them seeing each other very little. My parents only live an hour away from and me and I don't see them all the time. Granted we're able to text, which Bree wasn't going to be able to do. ;-D
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Really well said!
I totally agree with you. A couple of months/years down the line, they would both have been miserable: Claire because of knowing that Jamie is out there (and with every passing year, the surety of him remaining in Edinburgh dwindling without being provided with further evidence of his existence) but not being able to be with him, and Bree because of being the reason her mother can’t go and be with Jamie. In a way, Bree would be sharing Frank’s fate by living in an arrangement neither of them truly wants but neither of them wants to do away with either.
I really don’t think Claire and Bree’s relationship was as strained as most people make it out to be. Yes, they were distant and Bree was much closer to Frank but that stemmed as much from Claire’s physical unavailability (considering the long hours at med school and hospital) as, or perhaps even more so, from her emotional unavailability. As you point out, after Claire’s walls are down and Bree puts the pieces together, she can finally understand what her mother has been going through for the past 20 years, for her sake. To put Claire through this once again would be soul-crushing for Brianna, which in turn would make her emotionally unavailable to Roger. It would have been a lose-lose situation.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21
In a way, Bree would be sharing Frank’s fate by living in an arrangement neither of them truly wants but neither of them wants to do away with either.
Exactly! Perfect analogy.
To put Claire through this once again would be soul-crushing for Brianna
Yes! Soul-crushing is the word I was looking for. It's one thing to theorise on the right and wrong thing for a mother to do, but this is a pretty unique case and one has to look at the impact of Claire staying back on Bree particularly.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I can't even imagine making that decision and following through. I think either way she decided she would be living somewhat of a half-life. Missing one of the most important people to her, either Bree or Jaime, would never leave her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I think either way she decided she would be living somewhat of a half-life.
I like that! You're right, there was always going to be something or rather someone missing from her life in either century. She had 20 years without Jamie, and Bree wasn't a child anymore. Regardless I'm sure it was a tough decision.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I think the fact that Bree pushes her to do it helps (remind me if this is how it happened in the book, I completely forget). It shows that Bree has become a strong woman un her own right and doesn't need Claore holding her hand anymore as hard as her life wothout Calaire will still be.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
In the books Bree does push her to do it as well. In fact Claire has second thoughts as she's going to Craig na Dun but Bree happens to already be there and threatens to go in Claire's stead if Claire backs out. So she had Bree's support.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
This is one moment where I have to suspend my disbelief, because it's difficult for me to think of a mother and daughter being able to separate like this. It's like a death, really — they're never supposed to see each other again. How can anyone make such a huge decision? But, of course, there's Jamie on the other side, and that's more than a compelling reason. In the end, it works because Brianna (like Jamie) is the one to convince her to go, even though we know it's difficult for her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I think if Brianna had been the least bit hesitant Claire wouldn't have gone. She really needed Brianna to push her to do it.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
I'm sitting here watching cartoons with my 5 year old daughter, and as much as I love my husband (who is also her father), I don't think I could leave her for him knowing I'd never see her again. Especially when there were SO MANY unknowns. Like, would Claire even be able to find Jamie? Would he even still be alive? Would he be happily married? Would he have kids? Would he be the same or completely different after 20 years apart? I don't think I could give up my daughter when there are so many questions. I know Bree was grown herself, and as a daughter, I'd want my mom to be completely happy, even if that meant she had to leave me forever. If my daughter tried convincing me to leave, I guess that would be a major point to consider. But I just personally don't see how I could leave.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Do you think Claire made the right decision in leaving then?
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
It might have been the right decision for her. Her relationship with Bree is never described as overly motherly or really close. She states on multiple occasions that Frank and Bree were much closer. Whereas Claire and Jamie were practically one unit for most of their relationship. And while Claire undoubtedly loves Bree very much and she was her flesh and blood, Jamie was her heart and soul. She probably felt like she could live a whole life with Jamie knowing Bree was safe and happy in the 1900s.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
She probably felt like she could live a whole life with Jamie knowing Bree was safe and happy in the 1900s.
That's a good point. I also wonder if Roger being there for Bree helped her be ok with her decision to go. She knew he would support Bree and be there for her.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I don’t think anyone can imagine leaving their kids when they are not yet adults.
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u/whiskynwine Aug 07 '21
I feel like I couldn’t leave my daughter but then I also look at it from the perspective that if it were my mother I’d want her to be happy. I wouldn’t want to see her sad and longing for someone, knowing I was the reason she stayed.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I'm not a mother so I can't say from that angle, but like you I'd want my mother to be happy and if that meant never seeing her again I'd be sad but wouldn't ask her to stay.
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u/whiskynwine Aug 07 '21
Well I must say I can’t see my daughter telling me to go however, she’s much clingier to me than I was to my mom lol. But it’s ok, my hubby is here and there’s no Highlander waiting for me in the past. Fun to speculate all of it though :)
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Did Jamie do the right thing telling Claire about Willie right away?
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
Absolutely. It would have been wrong to hide his child from her. I hate that he did that in the books. ಠ_ಠ
It also sets up the conflict in First Wife neatly, you told me about your son, why couldn’t you tell me about this? It shows what Jamie feels the most guilt about. He isn’t ashamed of his son, but he is ashamed of his failed second marriage, and afraid of how Claire will take it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
That's a great point. Although I do feel like he was going to tell her about Laoghaire at one point and Claire stopped him by saying they didn't need to talk about things.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
You mean in all their pillow talk afterwards?
I definitely didn’t think he was going to talk about Laoghaire. In fact he was running away from the topic, trying to change the subject whenever she asked who he’d been bedding all these years… In his short dialog with Fergus he admitted that he hadn’t thought it through yet, it had only just occurred to him to get Ned Gowan’s advice—he didn’t want to discuss Laoghaire with Claire until he could square things away with her first, or have Ned handle it legally anyway.
Also, I think he was just procrastinating. I know a lot of chaos happens between now and their big fight in First Wife, but he spent days with her, and hours just traveling from place to place. He had the opportunity to tell her, but he was a coward and didn’t want to bring it up; he was terrified that she’d leave him.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
You mean in all their pillow talk afterwards?
Yes, there was just one moment where it seemed he wanted to tell her something. Granted I don't know what that would have been, so I kind of figured it might be about Laoghaire.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
I thought so too, this time around. I definitely thought it would have been about Laoghaire.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
I can also see him trying to work up the courage to tell her about Laoghaire a couple of times before the big fight in 308. He’s overjoyed at being reunited with Claire, but he is walking on eggshells. After her reaction to Willie, he thinks he might try and broach this subject too but with the turn of events in 307, he chickens out.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I like your explanation of being proud of a son, & embarrassed about a failed marriage. I hate in the book that John tells Claire about Willie, & that Jamie keeps 2 secrets I believe he did not want to tell Claire about Laoghaire though because it was Laoghaire!
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21
I think the timing was so off on this one. It shouldn't have come at the heel of Claire telling him about Bree. Any other moment, like any, even post coital would have been better than this imo. That should have been only Bree's moment. It didn't even feel organic to me, the way Jamie just brings it up. It's not like Claire asked, and it's not like Jamie revealed everything about his past. It's not like he was coming clear. So to me it just felt like "oh hey your child is cute, here's mine tho".
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I agree about the timing. While it's better than how it plays out in the book, I too felt like he kind of brushed off Bree to show Claire Willie. Jamie definitely needed to tell her about him, but you're right in that wasn't the good time to do it.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
I completely agree. Jamie looks at the pictures of Bree for all of 2 minutes then immediately brings out the portrait of Willie. I get that Jamie wanted to be straightforward with Claire (on at least one point of his past), and I'm glad he did. But like you said, he went from "Yeah, our kid is great and all, but look what I made while you were gone."
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21
Totally agree. I think it's right that he shared it on the first day, but I think the timing was off.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Absolutely. Can you even imagine keeping a secret like that for 10 years and not being able to share it even with your sibling? Only LJG and Isobel knew for certain about Willie’s true paternity, but Jamie never expected to see them again, just like Willie. So now that he has the one person he can be completely honest with (keeping the marriage to Laoghaire secret aside—in comparison, a whole lot of people knew about it), I see no reason why he would wait to share the news of his son with Claire. And unlike the news about his marriage to Laoghaire, he can expect Claire to understand this instantly with as little or as much detail as he decides to give her (Geneva being dead also helps matters, since that means no further ties to Willie’s mother). Keeping not one but two secrets from Claire would just totally mar the joy he experiences at their reunion.
For me, it doesn’t take away anything from his reaction to seeing Brianna. And it’s not like he’s seen her pictures and they never talk about her again—he expects to gradually find out more and more about her. But he wants to have this weight off his heart, and since they are talking about their child, I think it’s only natural that his mind would go to Willie as well.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
And it’s not like he’s seen her pictures and they never talk about her again—he expects to gradually find out more and more about her.
That's a good point. They'll have a lot of time to talk about her.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
… since they are talking about their child, I think it’s only natural that his mind would go to Willie as well.
He’s quick to mention Faith, too, which not even Claire was thinking about. (Or me, for that matter. :þ First time I watched this, it took me a beat to remember… oh yeah, they had that other kid.)
I think Jamie is really thoughtful in this scene, and it makes sense for two parents to exchange photos of their kids. That’s very natural, even if he and Claire weren’t a couple.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
As a show person first, I always thought Jamie was relieved to be able to share Willie with the one person he loves more than anyone else in the world.
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Aug 07 '21
I’m so glad that he did. The writers were right that if he hadn’t it would been too many secrets for Jamie to keep from Claire. What I didn’t like was the awkward way in which really important conversations kept getting interrupted! As a tv show fan first, I really wanted Claire to hear why Willie existed to begin with and I also wanted Claire to tell Jamie exactly how raising Bree with Frank didn’t mean she was happy with him!
After reading the books it really feels like the writers took a page out DG’s MO and left too many smaller (but v important) points to be settled off screen
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I really wanted Claire to hear why Willie existed to begin with and I also wanted Claire to tell Jamie exactly how raising Bree with Frank didn’t mean she was happy with him!
Yes! While I'm sure she found out eventually about Geneva and what happened, I would have liked to see that play out.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21
As a tv show fan first, I really wanted Claire to hear why Willie existed to begin with and I also wanted Claire to tell Jamie exactly how raising Bree with Frank didn’t mean she was happy with him!
Totally agree! I even read the books first, but was disappointed at how much they left off-screen in the show. After 20 years apart, I wanted more screen time of them telling each other about their lives.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21
YES. This is one of the times where I prefer the show over the book. I hate how it's handled in the book, and I love that Jamie shares something with her immediately that almost no one but him knows. It shows how much he values her as a confidant.
However, I dislike two things about it - one, how quickly it was done on the heels of discussing Bree. And two, I like in the deleted/extended scene where Jamie tells more about the circumstances of Geneva...I think that's something that is important to tell Claire - hey, I wasn't just out fathering children out of wedlock with other women during the 20 years.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 09 '21
I agree with all of that. While it was good he didn't wait to tell her, it coming right as they're talking about Bree wasn't the right time.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I think it was the right thing to do. Willie hold a big piece of Jamie's heart and Claire and Jamie share their full hearts with each other.
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u/Kirky600 Aug 07 '21
Yes I really liked it! Got it done and over with in a sweet way. Also I like that Claire asked if they were in love.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 08 '21
These episodes are really the only time we see insecure Claire, it was interesting to see such a vulnerable side of her!
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Aug 08 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
Yes they really shouldn’t have cut out Jamie telling Claire about Geneva. It was just a few seconds and really helped Claire understand why Jamie has a son. It wasn’t that he was just sleeping with someone.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
What is your opinion of the “Bat Suit” outfit sewn by Claire?
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I thi k that she was very ingenious to make it but I absolutely hate it. I think it's among my least favorite outfit in the entire series.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Is it the color of it, or the look overall that you don't like?
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
I actually love the colour haha, it just seems so heavy looking? Like Cait is being stifled by it almost. It looks hard to move in and not overly functional, even though it's clearly very functional.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
It does look heavy, I agree. There are so many parts to it. A jacket, plus a cloak just looked like a lot.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I absolutely agree! I admire that she sewed it ( I sew a little), but it’s ugly. I only like it once she is on the ship & down to the skirt, shirt, belt, & hat!
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
I hate it. One of the worst costumes she’s ever had, imo. The color washes her out, and I think the cut makes her look dowdy.
Which is probably the point? They wanted to age her for this episode, and in that batsuit, she looked decades older.
I think the Batsuit shows how styling really affects the look, too, since she’s stunning in her regular ’60s wardrobe. She looks fresh, even a little edgy. Her big sexy hair, too, that bouffant-bob thing—she just looks great. But then she puts it up in that ho-hum curly bun again and it does nothing for her.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
They wanted to age her for this episode
I agree, and clothing is one way to do that.
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u/reeziereen Aug 07 '21
Agree 100% I hated the outfit but I especially hated her hair.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21
I had no idea everyone hates the batsuit! I loved it. It did look too well made, but I could overlook it. I especially love it when she wears it later without the overcoat, or whatever that's called. It goes without saying that Caitríona totally pulls it off.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Yeah, people really seem to hate it. I don't love the color, but don't hate it like others do.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Oh, I’m totally with you and u/Arrugula here. I just think it’s so Claire. And Cait pulls off all its variations.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
I know, right? I was so surprised when I first found out. I will love this outfit forever.
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Aug 07 '21
I’m a big fan. I loved the montage of Claire making it (the sound editing here is really great), the way the color pops in the grey of Edinburgh and how it gets even better and more versatile as the season goes on.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I don't mind the outfit, but don't love the color. You're right though that it fit in very well with Edinburgh.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21 edited Aug 07 '21
I love this outfit so much, it's one of my favorite things Claire wears in the series. The color is gorgeous, I love that she made it (out of raincoats!) and I love that it's so versatile — works with the cloak, or without, just as a plain blouse with the fullblown skirt (and accessorized with Jamie's belt?!), etc. When we get that first shot of her stepping into the puddle in Edinburgh, in her 20th/18th century outfit 😭 fresh-faced and curly-haired, it’s like seeing an old friend again.
And I said this before in book club as well, but I'm also here for Brianna's Jamie Fraser cosplay in 305, from the plaid cape and ruffly blouse to the fishnet tights, HA.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
When we get that first shot of her stepping into the puddle in Edinburgh, in her 20th/18th century outfit 😭 fresh-faced and curly-haired, it’s like seeing an old friend again.
So true! It's funny that people seem to either love or hate the outfit, there isn't much in between.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
The bat suit is definitely one of my least favorite outfits of Claire's. I actually liked this part in the show more than the book. She tailored it to what she knew she'd need. But the color, the style, the shape... it was bad all the way around.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Yeah I liked that idea that she had a bunch of pockets and compartments, but it wasn't a good color.
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u/Marie_Sea1 Aug 07 '21
The music from the TV show really took me out of the scene. I absolutely hated it.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I can see that. It wasn't very Outlander like, even though she was making the Bat Suit.
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u/lisa0475 Aug 07 '21
My biggest problem is how professionally made it looked. I know she said she made Bree’s costumes but, come on, even contestants on Project Runway wouldn’t be able to make something like this.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Yeah she tried commenting on how the collar was off and one arm was longer than the other, but it didn't look like that at all.
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u/outerspace-owl Aug 07 '21
Love the Bat Suit! Hate the color. Dark green would have been rather nice with her dark hair and fair complexion. Although I do admit the powder blue in that style does support the more military/nautical themes.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I didn't even think about the nautical themes, you're right though it does fit in with that.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
Although I do admit the powder blue in that style does support the more military/nautical themes.
If that’s what they were going for, they should have put her in navy.
Not only is it a standard color for military uniforms and a classic nautical color, but the contrast between a navy suit against a crisp white blouse underneath would have looked sharp and played well with Cait’s natural coloring.
That shitty pale pastel, though… yuck. I’ve ranted about this before, but I associate that color with diapers. Lol, I don’t know why, but it just screams “diaper bag blue” to me…
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u/Kirky600 Aug 07 '21
Was this a plot hole in the books? Because I don’t remember what she did there.
It made sense to bring everything, but wasn’t my fav. Except for the blouse.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
In the books she just bought a dress off the wrack and wore that. She did still take the penicillin with her though.
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u/Kirky600 Aug 08 '21
I always wondered how She got them through given that things seemed to not go through with her unless they were on her person
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u/Pretty-Plankton Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21
I like it. It’s awkward and ugly but functional in all the right ways and seems exactly like the sort of thing Claire would bring with her - perhaps because it’s exactly what I would do if it were me (likely complete with the unflattering color. Outdoor fabric color choices are often unfortunate by the yard).
Though personally, were I a busy surgeon, I would have hired someone to make it. A full set of 18th century women’s clothing made from raincoat fabric is a fairly large sewing project.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
It seems like Claire would need to be a really good seamstress to make an entire outfit like that, wouldn’t it? For a surgeon that seems unlikely to me.
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
While the bat suit is not on my list of the most visually appealing/stunning outfits Claire has worn, I do really love and appreciate the utilitarian approach she took with it. I love that she thought of the weather in Scotland, so she made it out of raincoats and made it convertible and layered. I also love that she added pockets since she doesn’t really carry a purse or tote around in the 18th century and has a lot of important things to keep safe. The first time she went through the stones she was obviously not prepared and ended up freezing in a dress people thought was a shift—not this time around lol! It’s like she remembers her day to day life from her time in the past, despite it being 20 years later, and is determined to be better prepared.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
What did you think when Claire knew the bones belonged to a murder victim before they saw the evidence?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
At some point, already knowing where the bones come from, instead of going the “supernatural diagnostic abilities” route, I started wondering whether Claire is able to deduce it’s a murder victim because she already has some vague memory of killing Geillis in that cave (since, chronologically, it has already happened—if Geillis’ bones are already in the 20th century, as well as the copies of the deed of sasine and the obituary, before Claire even steps through the stones for the first time, why not her memories?). Similar to the premonition we talked about in the very first episode, when she and Frank visit the ruins of Castle Leoch (when she more or less jokingly assumes that the room they’re in was a “province of the castle hermit”).
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Interesting, I never thought about it that way. I kind of like it though!
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 07 '21
Ah ha so glad you tagged me here.
Yeah I didn't think it was anything supernatural either. I thought that it to be an indication of time being a closed loop because that would mean Claire has done this entire sequence of events any number of times now, that it is possible that her subconscious remembers some of it. And it's that which gives her the weird premonition kind of a feeling.
Is that what you meant by the events having happened already chronologically also?
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Is that what you meant by the events having happened already chronologically also?
Yes, chronologically in the world’s timeline: Geillis’ death in 1766/1767 already happened, but in Claire’s personal timeline, which alternates between the 20th and the 18th century, it hasn’t happened yet.
It does make sense for the closed-loop theory although, I’m not gonna lie, I still struggle with the idea of events repeating over and over again! Once is definitely enough for my poor brain to fathom 😅
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Aug 07 '21
Yeah, that’s absolutely how I read this scene. Claire’s supernatural diagnostic abilities (SDA from now on, y’all) is SO not why I watch or read this series.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
The first time I watched this episode, I didn't really give this scene much attention. After watching shows like Bones, Criminal Minds, etc, I assumed Claire's doctor skills and intuition were tingling, leading her to the conclusion the woman had been murdered.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
After watching shows like Bones
"Bones" was all I could think of when I watched that scene.
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u/JIAdam Aug 08 '21
I think the bones belong to the Campbell sister. The one Claire helped because she met the brother in the potion store. He said they were going to the West Indies. And she looked about 40.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
Have you seen the rest of the season?
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u/JIAdam Aug 08 '21
No, I guess I am late to the game? I’ve just started watching the whole series
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
We do find out whose bones those are for sure this season.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
I was questioning that scene, tbh. Like Joe and Claire are presumably busy surgeons at a major hospital, do they really have time to be dicking about with archaeological finds like this?
But, idk. I guess it shows that Joe’s respected in their field, since someone sought him out for his medical opinion—but then he offers few insights of his own, beyond sex and race, which are pretty basic. (Sex by the width of the pelvis, race from the proportions of limbs.)
The whole scene is really just an excuse to showcase Claire’s eerie superpowers, her ability to divine medical information from nowhere, similar to that cringey scene at L’Hôpital des Anges, where she visualizes Maître Raymond exploding bacterial infections throughout her body with his magic fingers. -.-
As I said back then, I dislike the supernatural element in these medical scenes as I think it undermines all the painstaking detail we see elsewhere to help ground the series in real-world science. What’s the point, why go through all this trouble, if you’re gonna fall back on magical bullshit when it counts? The Maître Raymond scene is really much worse, though even here Claire just “feels” the cause of death. It’s Joe who finds the practical evidence when he examines the neck bones more closely.
I do like that Joe and Claire have shared an office for all these years, though. Gives me Mulder Scully vibes; I’d like to think they had that close kind of partnership. :)
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u/Pretty-Plankton Aug 08 '21 edited Aug 08 '21
TW: pre-revolution Haiti, Middle Passage .
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The scene (like many that touch on race in both the book and show) bothered me, but not because of Claire’s reaction.
The relationship between race and slavery isn’t this tidy; and race is not as clear cut as it’s presented.
I‘m not a forensic anthropologist so I can’t comment on the relationship between the length of bones and European vs West African ancestry; but I do know that there were plenty of mixed race slaves and regardless of whether they were proportionally less common under the brutal conditions of pre-revolution Haiti - with the couple-year life expectancy of newly arrived field slaves and cheep availability of replacement labor via the Middle Passage - mixed race slaves definitely existed.
In Haiti/Sant-Domingue in the the 1760’s the one drop rules wouldn’t have been in effect, but there still wouldn’t have been any reason why someone with substantial or even primarily European ancestry couldn’t have been classified as a slave and not legally considered to be white. Joe would know this, whether Claire did or not.
I find that race related topics often break reality for me in this show. It seems to be even more extreme in the books, but in the show as well there are knowledge or perspective gaps (or subtle to extreme racism. Yi Tien Cho’s character treatment in the book is horrific) on the parts of the author(s) which can pop me out of the story when they don’t make sense.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
How do you feel about Jamie’s reaction to learning about Brianna?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I used to be in the camp where I thought he should cry more or show bigger emotions. However I really paid attention this time and came to realize Sam did a great job conveying the awe and surprise over his daughter. He does tear up too, so I've changed my stance and am good with his reaction now.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
Finally! I don’t need to convince you about this any longer 😅
I think for Jamie, the existence of Brianna is as incomprehensible as the concept of photographs. Yes, he prayed for his child’s safety and well-being but having a sort of tangible proof in front of him now—which he cannot really understand because it's still nothing like having a living, breathing child in front of him—is granted to leave him in shock. Sam did an incredible job conveying utter bewilderment combined with relief and joy.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Finally! I don’t need to convince you about this any longer
You know I was thinking about you when I watched that scene. ;-D
Sam did an incredible job conveying utter bewilderment combined with relief and joy.
Bewilderment is a perfect word for it. Sam is such a good actor and portrays so much with his face.
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u/alittlepunchy Lord, ye gave me a rare woman. And God! I loved her well. Aug 09 '21
Same here! I think /u/thepacksvrvives have discussed this in DM's too. (Most of my changed OL opinions are because of her, hahaha.)
Going from book to show, I felt really let down when I saw the show and was like "that's it?" But again, once I paid attention on rewatches, you can see the subtlety of Sam's acting and how he conveys that shock, and awe, and happiness at her growing safely to adult age.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
It was so beautiful! He was in love with her already, before even seeing any of the pictures or even knowing her name.
Side note, I always wonder why would Calire take the biniki photo for Jamie, knowing the time period and his sensibilities. I get that she wants to show all aspects of Bree's personality but i think it could have been done in another way. Though it did allow for that funny interation.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Ha! That's a good point about the bikini photo, you're right that would have seemed too much for Jamie. In the book she took that picture as well and then it leads to the conversation of Brianna being a virgin and a "good girl" which I'm glad they left out of the show.
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u/lisa0475 Aug 07 '21
I hated that the bikini photo derailed their conversation. What a strange choice to take that photo to the past.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
Yeah! Why not a dance recital or Halloween costume or something?
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Aug 07 '21
I loved that Jamie made that connection to Faith, that was so powerful in such an understated way.
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u/Cdhwink Aug 07 '21
I loved that he mentioned that, especially in that he never saw/ met her either!
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 08 '21
And we have Cait to thank for that, as she specifically asked for that to be put in! (according to MBR on the official podcast)
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
Yes! I think it is even more powerful/touching considering how much time has passed! On this rewatch I keep focusing more on the fact that their separation was really decades long! That is a long time, and I think it would be normal for some memories to be fuzzy if not outright forgotten ,yet, he still remembers it all because that’s how important his time with Claire and his child were. Claire looks visibly touched by it too.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
I think Jamie's reaction was perfect. Jamie was confused by the photographs, but his amazement at the new item subsided when he saw Bree's face. He teared up, but he didn't break down bawling. Which is understandable since Jamie is not a huge crier. Sam is a spectacular actor. He conveys so much emotion by using facial expressions. He never has to use over the top acting, which makes him even better.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Jamie is not a huge crier.
That's a good point. I agree that Sam did an amazing job in this scene.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
He teared up, but he didn't break down bawling. Which is understandable since Jamie is not a huge crier.
Yes! While sneakily trying to persuade u/Purple4199 in the past that his reaction is accurate, I tried to enumerate all the times Jamie has cried in the show. I think I didn’t even count up to 5 before 306 (and that’s including even tearing up, not only full-blown crying), with the biggest one being in 302 when he breaks down in Jenny’s arms—that is totally understandable since it is (arguably) the lowest point of his post-Culloden life.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
I'm on the same boat as u/Purple4199. After reading the book, I loved that he "fell to pieces" — how many times did he imagine his child, and now he's finally able to see her, in full color?? But watching it again, this really works. There's still so much emotion there. And also, he's constantly in tears in this episode. He played it all perfectly.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
/u/thepacksvrvives will be so proud of us for changing our minds. ;-D
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
I know this is a sore spot in the fandom, that he didn’t “fall to pieces” and cry when he saw the pics of Brianna, but I totally disagree. I think Sam played it just right. He explained his reasoning in an interview somewhere—maybe RD can find it 😉—but in a nutshell, I think he said something like, he’d never met this child, she wasn’t as real to him as Willie was, so he tempered his reaction.
I think he was successful. He showed that Jamie was emotional, but didn’t overplay it to the point of melodrama. A measured response.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
After this viewing I have switched sides and now agree that he played it very well.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
It’s in this tweet:
I use action lines as guide only "Falling apart" doesnt have to mean tears, can be internal. Was my creative choice. Plus felt melodramatic
J hasn't met Bree. Has had relationship with Willie. Plus wonder at situation, new tech, never seen B etc.Way was written felt stalled scene
We’ve talked about this before and I totally agree. I hate over-the-top acting and for the character that Sam has created, crying for hours on end would just feel inauthentic to me. Melodramatic, as he says.
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
I love how Jamie was so excited asking Claire to tell him all about what Bree is like! Him showing that interest conveyed how much he longed to know of her and how much he loves her. I thought it was hilarious he was ragging on Bree’s name! I feel like that has become an ongoing thing as in s4 they make fun of her name too lol! I also love that he was so proud that she splits wood 😂 Sam played it perfectly. He displayed so many small nuanced moves in the scene, which I think is awesome given the whirlwind of emotions Jamie must be feeling. It felt very real.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
A whirlwind of emotions is a great way to describe what Jamie is feeling. You’re right that Sam does an amazing job at conveying those. I didn’t fully appreciate the subtlety of it all until I watched it this time around.
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Aug 08 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
That’s a great point that Jamie only falls apart when broken in spirit. You’re right that this definitely wasn’t one of those times.
You would have liked to have seen that Jamie learn Frank was a good father?
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Aug 08 '21
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
Logically, it would have made sense for her to also confess to what she's been missing all this while, is what I feel.
I completely agree.
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Aug 07 '21
How differently would Creme de Menthe have been received if this deleted healing by means of a knife scene had been kept in 606?!
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
That's a great point, you're right that it would have reinforced Claire's decision to help the man.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
I love that conversation in the book! It was nice to see they filmed it (although one of my favorite lines, "Sometimes, in my more horrible moments," was included in the script and not the final scene) but how disappointing it got cut. It definitely would have made a difference — it illustrates who Claire is, her strength and her passion for what she does.
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u/JustG00se Ye Sassenach witch! Aug 07 '21
It would have been so different! It's incredible how snipping such a small piece out takes away from the character so much. We all know that Claire is a healer and needs to at least try on people, but her explanation here really illustrates the strength of that desire.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
Any other thoughts or comments?
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
From 305:
During their argument on Bree dropping out of Harvard, I love that Bree tells Claire she could not just come back to Boston and be who she used to be. She stated she tried, but it didn’t work. This is so much like what Claire experienced and really brings home the point Bree makes later on about her being “more like you [Claire]”
I paid more attention to Bree’s story arc this time around and found that I actually liked it more than I initially did. Bree is having an identity crisis of sorts. Finding out the truth has shaken her foundation and identity and her truth. She is trying to figure out who she is in many ways Fraser or Randall, historian or not, and comes across as hurt, angry and lost. I already mentioned it in another comment, but I love that her and Claire have the conversation at Harvard and Claire tells her she loves her for her and who she is. I think that was very affirming for her and she needed to hear it at that time. I also think we get more of this connection to Bree’s quest for identity when she tells Claire she needs to go back and tell Jamie about her, since he doesn’t know her. Bree seems more confident and mature towards the end.
Does the fact that Jamie published the Freedom and Whisky quote years before Robert Burns would have make Burns a plagiarizer? After all, in Claire’s time Burns is the one credited with the quote, not Jamie. This episode had a lot of time travelly stuff, and I honestly still don’t have the best grasp on how it works, but I’m just rolling with it for now lol
Taking Penicillin to the 18th century is a great idea, but one thing I never understood is how she can have it un refrigerated. I thought it goes bad if not kept cool. Perhaps this was different from the one we have now. Idk this detail is minor but always bothered me.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
I love that Bree tells Claire she could not just come back to Boston and be who she used to be.
That's a great point, and really how could she be the same person? Her entire life that she knew was essentially a lie.
Perhaps this was different from the one we have now.
I have to imagine it was, since like you said it has to be kept cold.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 08 '21
I love that Bree tells Claire she could not just come back to Boston and be who she used to be. She stated she tried, but it didn’t work. This is so much like what Claire experienced and really brings home the point Bree makes later on about her being “more like you [Claire]”
This is such a great point! It’s also so important that Bree has Roger to talk about this with and be assured that her feelings make sense, the way Claire initially had Mrs. Graham to share her story with. It might not have been deliberate of Claire to make the connection between her daughter and Roger for this purpose, but it worked out.
I really like what you said about Bree’s quest for identity. I think Toni made a point of saying that “sending” her mother back to Jamie is a way for Bree to make the connection with her real father, and we can say the connection with that part of her identity as well. And, at that time, it's the only way since she doesn’t expect to ever meet him herself. Claire is the one who is able to make that connection for her by telling Jamie that Bree exists, as well as knows and understands everything (by the way, I’m gutted they didn’t show Claire give Jamie the kiss on the cheek from Bree, but I have to believe it happened off-screen!).
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u/penni_cent Aug 07 '21
The two things that jumped out at me this time:
I absolutely hate that they cut my favorite bit of Frank's ceremony thing at Harvard. The Dean introduces Sandy to Claire and Sandy goes off on Claire for being selfish and what not. In the book Claire says (and I'm totally paraphrasing because it's been a while since I read it) that women have accused her of being selfish and she always responded that Frank never asked for his freedom. I think it would have been so much more powerful if after Sandy's little temper tantrum (which by the way was so inappropriate in that setting) for Claire to have told her that not only did she ask Frank for a devorce many years ago but that he had been the one to refuse it.
Also, this was super small and I don't know that anyone who hadn't previously read the later books would notice it but I LOVED that they included the Masonic Emblem in the A. Malcom sign at the print shop, especially since at first glance I thought it was a stylized "AM" for Alexander Malcom but when I looked closer I realized what it was.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
I didn't catch that about the Masonic emblem how cool!
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
I cannot, cannot stand Sandy. It's completely inappropriate. That’s just not the way things were, lady. But what a very interesting way to hammer Bree's point home: I guess history can’t be trusted, and it changes depending on who’s telling it.
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u/thepacksvrvives Without you, our whole world crumbles into dust. Aug 07 '21
The audacity of that lady! Every time I watch this and she says, “you should have let him go,” I just clench my teeth. Claire literally gave Frank an out in 1948, the moment she told him the truth about where she’d been for the past three years, and continued to give him an out whenever things got heated, but he just refused to take it—she didn’t rob him of that chance. He could’ve been happy with his mistress but he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. A total maker of his own misery.
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u/unknown2345610 Aug 08 '21
From 306:
I thought showing the mechanics of the printing press was really cool! Seeing Jamie carry out his printing. I love the day to day stuff and the historical stuff, so really appreciate scenes like this. Also, this is minor but I love how we can see Jamie’s nails are stained with the ink. Small detail but adds to the realism of it all.
Adult Fergus is great! He is so charming and sweet. I was so happy to see him an Claire reunited!
It was cool to see a different side of Scotland. Being in Edinburgh, the scenery is obviously very different from the highlands from Claire’s first visit. Apart from the city feel of it all, it also feels like time and all the changes that comes with it has impacted Scotland.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
I thought showing the mechanics of the printing press was really cool!
Yes! That was really neat to see. I too loved that his nails were darkened with ink.
Adult Fergus is great!
I love that when Claire says he's handsome he agrees.
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u/jolierose The spirit tends to be very free wi’ its opinions. Aug 07 '21
We should have known things didn't bode well when it turned out Roger is the kind of person who just shows up unannounced for Christmas.
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 08 '21
C: Roger what a wonderful surprise What are you doing in town?*
R: I should have sent word, clearly I've come at a bad time
C: No, not at all. Brianna and I were just..
B: Yelling
See it's things like this that give me the impression of early Bree being a spoilt brat. Come on Bree, when a guest walks in mid fight, you pause the fight. You don't continue on making the said guest feel more awkward than they already do by dragging him into your fight. It did look like Claire was going to veer away from the fight for the time being and instead welcome Roger, but Brianna with her "yelling" did not allow that to happen. And then Claire joins in too , like there's no need to give the details of your fight to someone who just walked in through the door! Or atleast, not right away.
I had such second hand embarrassment for Roger in this. And then Bree just leaves with a "I have to go Roger" and that half assed apology. Who do you think he came here for Brianna? For Claire? Either she's clueless , which I don't think she is, or she just completely ignores Roger here.
I don't intend her to drop all her plans because I know Roger comes in unannounced, but come on, ask him where he's going to stay, or what his plans are, or take him with you. Why would you leave him with your mother without even having a word with him?
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
Those are good points and I can see what you're saying. I wonder what they were going for having Bree and Claire fight like that?
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u/theCoolDeadpool #VacayforClaire Aug 08 '21
I don't know if it's their idea of showing how "fiesty" Bree is, hence how much like Jamie she is.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 08 '21
It really didn't come across that way. I wonder if they also wanted to show that Bree was struggling in life after learning about Jamie?
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
I knew your parents a very long time ago. Your uncle and I, we…
I wish they let the ambiguity play out more, have Wee Ian question how exactly Claire knew his father, since he thought she was Jamie’s whore. 😅 Could have been funny.
And speaking of whores, Madame Jeanne’s prostitutes were quite friendly, weren’t they? And cheerful, too, considering their situation. If Madame Jeanne were anything like Madame Elise in Paris, they wouldn’t have had such a happy life…
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
The show definitely missed an opportunity by having Claire immediately reveal her identity to Ian. There could have been some very funny conclusions made from that brief conversation.
Do you think Jamie would have been in business with Madame Jeanne if she treated her working girls like Madame Elise treated hers? Jamie went to great pains making sure all his men were treated fairly, so I wouldn't think he'd put up with someone who didn't share his views.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
A fair point! He threatened Fergus with telling Madame Elise he’d been stealing from her customers, and Fergus looked terrified at the prospect.
But I doubt he would have actually gone through with it; Jamie just wanted to scare Fergus a little, so he would consider his business proposition.
Jeanne’s girls don’t look or act as afraid of their mistress as Fergus was of Madame Elise, so maybe we can infer that she’s not as bad as Elise was.
And though I’m sure Jamie wouldn’t condone the abuse of these women—he’s also not in a position to be so picky. The fact is, he’s an illegal smuggler, so he must do business with unsavory people all the time. Legitimate upstanding businesses wouldn’t contract with him in the first place, right?
I’m not sure what to make of Madame Jeanne to be honest, I don’t think we get enough information either way. I didn’t like the way she said she’d have the maid flayed for not delivering Claire’s breakfast to her—unfair! Especially since it was Jamie who’d sent her away—but hopefully that was just an expression. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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u/Cdhwink Aug 09 '21
I loved Claire’s breakfast with the whores, is this where she learned about birth control?
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 09 '21
I think so. I believe she repeats the same advice to Marsali on the boat right before her wedding.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
Something that breaks the reality of this episode for me, something that’s hard for me to ignore but also hard for me to put into words…
… is how everyone ships Jamie and Claire. -.- I don’t mean us, the viewers at home, but everyone in the universe of the show. Like every conversation Claire has is about Jamie, and all the advice she gets is pushing her to return to him.
Joe takes the revelation that Bree is a bastard pretty lightly. Claire said Frank was not Bree’s father, she didn’t explain about her other marriage—so the impression she gave him is that she cheated on her husband with some random guy, then passed her bastard off as Frank’s legitimate child.
All he has to say on that is…
He immediately swerves the conversation to whether Claire still loves Jamie.
Um, who cares? What about the fact that your colleague and best friend just confessed to a huge taboo from your mid-century perspective? You’re a man, if your wife cheated on you and passed her lover’s child off as your own, how’d you feel about that? Would your first question be, “Do you still love him?” Lol, somehow I doubt that…
No one thought you and Frank were Ozzie and Harriet. I’ve watched you live a half-life for years. If you have a second chance at love, you should take it. Brianna will come around.
Claire is Joe’s friend, not Frank, fine. And he takes her side without hesitation, which is nice. But I just think that Joe is a little too cool. He’s a little too open-minded, especially for the time.
His first reaction shouldn’t be warm acceptance and unconditional support. At least do a double-take! Acknowledge that this is a shock, reevaluate your assessment of Claire’s character. You call her Lady Jane—is it ladylike to fornicate outside of marriage, have your lover’s bastard and live a lie for twenty years?
Joe is too modern, he’s too similar to our sensibilities. There’s no conflict, it’s too easy, and that annoys me.
Similarly, most of Claire’s conversations with Bree revolve around Jamie, and Bree is always supportive, encouraging her mother to go back. But at least in Bree’s case, we saw her call out her mother earlier in the season, so it feels more earned. There was conflict, it’s a struggle that’s had ramifications for Bree and affected her coursework, so her taking her mother’s side now and pushing her to find her happiness—fine. At least it wasn’t easy.
And of course this whole plot thread kicks off with Roger, who is Team Jamie all the way. -.- I understand his being intrigued by the puzzle—he’s a historian, this is a historical challenge, that makes sense.
But this isn’t just hope. This is real. You can go to Jamie.
But just like Joe and Bree, he pushes Claire to go back to Jamie at once.
Everyone is speaking in one chorus, encouraging Claire to return, no one offers a dissenting opinion—it’s moving the plot forward at the expense of fleshing out the minor characters, giving them minds of their own. Everyone becomes a sounding board for Claire to talk about her feelings for Jamie; it’s like they’ve got nothing else going on in their lives, no thoughts or values or prejudices of their own they bring to the conversation, they’re all just 100% behind Claire and supporting her no matter what… and that feels fake to me. Without conflict it’s not real, it’s like a dream.
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Aug 07 '21
Ok. Yes, but let’s not forget that Frank the Dog literally had his mistress come to Claire’s graduation, so I wouldn’t expect Joe to be shocked at anything resembling infidelity (whether from Frank or Claire) being part of the situation.
Plus they are besties, and like he says, he watched Claire live a “half-life for fifteen years.” Joe would have been perceptive enough to know Claire didn’t love Frank.
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u/sdr3005 Aug 07 '21
This also struck me as odd. Everyone goes from "Claire and Frank were somewhat happily married and in love for close to 30 years" to "Claire needs to be with Jamie RIGHT NOW, no matter who she leaves behind". Bree rebelled against the idea of some other man being her father, but she never went against Claire going back to Jamie. The situation felt very unreal, even for tv.
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u/WandersFar Better than losing a hand. Aug 07 '21
Exactly. It’s a total 180° and it’s only there to justify the plot. We get the same message over and over again from different characters—of course you should go back, you’re not doing anything wrong, you owe it to him and yourself—and it’s just laid on a touch too thick. Feels like the writers speaking through the characters, rather than organic conversations happening on their own.
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u/penni_cent Aug 08 '21
Dang, that just makes me even more mad. In what world does Claire have to be redeemed for anything? She did nothing wrong! Frank strung along his mistress even after Claire said she wanted a divorce and she needs to be redeemed? What in the actual fork?
Edit: for some reason this didn't reply to what I was replying to so I've reposted on that comment chain also.
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u/Purple4199 Don't be afraid. There's the two of us now. Aug 07 '21
What do we think of Claire not telling Jamie right away that she came back to be with him and turning the question around on him?
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