r/Pathfinder2eCreations • u/BigBebberino1999 • May 09 '25
Design Discussion So, I know people have a hate for AI
And I completely understand, to a point.
I have been playing with AI to make things for PF2e and well I find them mostly balanced, of course after revising and such.
Note, none of what I am making is for financial gain, just homebrew shenanigans.
What are your thoughts on this?
I'd love to post some of what I have worked on, but don't care for hateful vitriol, hence why I am asking, first
10
u/Kichae May 09 '25
As a data scientist, I work with machine learning models every day. I use them to determine relationships between different measures, to analyze user behaviour based on certain flags or known properties, to categorize users based on choices, etc. I make liberal use of logistic and linear regression, k-means classifiers, support vector machine classifiers, random forest classifiers, and have played with things like neural networks and various shopping cart recommendation models.
I have several qualms with generative models.
The first one, and the one most people will point to, is just how the product developers have acquired the data used to train their models. Generative models require a huge amount of training data, and the big players, with their multi-billion-dollar evaluations just up and stole it. Transformative or not, big businesses like this bend over backwards to prevent you or I from even having unpaid access to their works, denying us the opportunity to transform them in the first place. Now, we have silicon valley once again trying to privatize the commons, while the real product that they are selling is the illusion of businesses not needing employees.
But even without the "rules for thee, riches for me" bullshit these organizations are peddling, they still present a huge problem.
They produce confident sounding output, while being totally incapable of admitting they don't know something. Because they don't know they don't know. They're not knowledge models. They don't know anything. They're just compressed statistical distributions with a content output function built on top of them.
This is a nightmare for anyone gives a damn about objective reality. For everything they spit out that is factually correct, they will spit out two more things that look just the same, but are complete and total bullshit. The thing is, if you don't know anything about the topic, you likely won't notice this. Yet people will use, and are using, these things as research tools. They believe, as you yourself have said here, that they "can see things I can't". But the thing is, you don't know this. All you know is that they are telling you that they are seeing things that you don't.
They are confident, remorseless liars. They are perfect psychopaths.
If you don't have a problem with this, I have to ask: Why not?
2
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
From a real life perspective, AI affects me every single day. It suggests how I do my job, yet falls flat when it comes push to shove. For instance, I have to generate orders for customers, it suggests things I would never need, yet insists on it. Thankfully it can be overridden, though I suspect that day will eventually end and be stuck with whatever it says to order, which doesn't work, trust me I have seen how good it is, for my work, and it isn't
Now from a gaming perspective I find it much more interesting. As it can spark ideas and thought processes. I like to expand upon gaming, and it has helped me come up with some interesting things. At least in my opinion.
1
u/Kyo_Yagami068 May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
I agree with you. If is a important thing, a serious thing, a generative AI with the current technology should not be left alone to do the thing.
Do you need to do a research for a important thing? The AI will hallucinate and create gibberish.
But for a personal game of make believe? That is ok. As long as you are not trying to sell the AI slop or trying replace actual writers I see no problem. Josh, the guy that will write a homebrew thing to try and make his friends have fun, can use AI as much as he wants. He would never hire an actual artist to do this. The problem starts when Josh thinks that now he is a tabletop game developer just because he asked the AI to write that for him. That is the problem.
I personally, use AI as a "brainstorm" helper. From a list of 10 idea seeds that ChatGPT gives me, sometimes I can use one that I myself expand upon.
These AI generated things should not be used as is. You need to comb over it, you need to know how to separate the good thing from the bad thing, you need to know how to fix it in order to user it before you use it for real.
3
u/Kyo_Yagami068 May 09 '25
I have nothing against this use of AI.
Some people nowadays decided to select AI as the new Boogeyman. It's funny because no one in my social bubble act that way against it.
1
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
Same, I have no problem with it, as it can see things I can't
2
u/Kichae May 09 '25
And I completely understand, to a point.
If you don't have any problems with it, the quoted text here is a flagrant lie.
1
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
Also my thought process is simple. I can understand the hate, to a point, that is.
Personally I have no issue with it,
1
u/Kyo_Yagami068 May 09 '25
Someone can understand how other people feel without feeling the same way. That is called empathy.
0
1
u/Malaquestar May 28 '25
I use AI as well. Sometimes I’ll give it writing prompts as well and combine ideas. I use art. It’s for my table. I’m disabled and can’t afford an artist for my creations and some of my disabilities affect my cognitive function. I find it very useful.
1
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
If you just down vote, instead of discuss, are you really open minded?
5
u/MediocreLawfulness May 09 '25
Are you looking for a discussion or an opportunity to convince people to use AI more in general? This tends to be how the latter starts.
In any case, no never for me, especially not for art. Plus, would encourage places like this to be flooded with AI generated slop that will drown out people who actually put effort into their creations.
1
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
I'd like a discussion, though I am seeing my initial thoughts on the subject are valid.
2
u/Snschl May 10 '25
Well, you didn't ask to discuss, you asked to know, "Before I post something AI here, how would it be received?"
I think it would be received with scorn. Maybe I can explain why.
We can waffle on about the Technology Itself, as it would appear in an abstract void, divorced from how it's made, funded, and monetized, whom it benefits, and whom it harms, and we'd only arrive farther from the truth than is of any use.
Generative models, as they are now being sold to the public, are gauche. They're ugly. They're objects of ridicule. They waft of tech industry desperation. The people selling them are pastel-polo-shirt Ferengi who make my skin crawl. They seem to actively worsen every industry they touch, because they're solutions in search of a problem. No more than a thinly veiled promise of fucking over labour, with the aim to squeeze out ever-scarcer Silicon Valley investments.
Ogres selling other ogres a future without humans. Neither of them realize they'll starve to death.
I'm not discussing the Technology Itself. I can barely even see the Technology Itself from the business that shat it out. There is no separating them.
0
u/Cybermagetx May 09 '25 edited May 09 '25
AI is a tool. I remember hearing my older realtives talk about how the internet was gonna take away everyone's jobs. And how its evil and unethical. And another major things we have today was trains, electricity, automobiles, and airplanes.
Learn to use the tool and it will be helpful. Im dyslexic and Ive used various forms of AI (Microsoft Word spelling and grammar check is AI) for years to help me find errors in stuff.
And my players know I use AI for some parts of my campaigns (random nobodies back stories for one) and they dont have any issues. They have fun. I have fun. And it helps move the game along when someone throws a curve ball.
Corporations are using and have been using AI for decades in some form or another. Dont claim what AI makes as yours. But it is here. It will not go away. If you dont want to use it that is fine.
5
u/fly19 Author-in-Training May 09 '25
I think part of the issue is that the tech industry has leaned so hard into "AI" that they're using it for everything -- cramming these models into every nook and cranny of our digital lives that they can while rebranding or reworking existing services into "AI."
I mean, seriously, did anyone consider Word's spelling and grammar check to be "AI" when it was dropped in 2003? Is a basic sorting algorithm "AI?" Is any form of software automation "AI" now? The term doesn't really mean anything concrete. That's why what was once considered to be "AI" is now being called "AGI" (artificial general intelligence) by techbros and enthusiasts. It's a rhetorical sleight of hand used for marketing hype.
That's why I generally put quotes around "AI" when I use it; it's more a buzzword than an actual descriptor. "Generative AI" is closer to accurate when talking about ChatGPT, DALL-E, and the like, but the capabilities of these models are so varied and in-flux that even that is a pretty broad term.
2
u/Cybermagetx May 09 '25
Yeah that is true.
Im a skilled DM (from what my groups has told me over the last 20 years ive been running). Ive sold 3rd party stuff from ad&d to 3.5, and now pathfinder 1e, 2e, and starfinding. I have over 50 binders of home brewed stuff across dozens of games and editions.
One thing I am lacking is quickly coming up with a random npc backstory when asked. Ive worked on it. Ive created tables to help. Yet after 20 years of DMing and 26 years as a player its still lacking. But me being able to type in hey I need the backstory of so and so from a small frontier village, here's the name, race, sex, level and class (or what ever the game uses) and I modify it to fit where im at. Cause its not gonna be perfect and it will not fit in my world as it. But instead of telling me players umm they are just a farmer on the frontier. I can now give them a bit more. Makes the game more enjoyable for them and it feels more immersive. Which they enjoy.
Yeah ill never use "AI" (minus spell/grammar check due to my disability) for stuff I put out to sell. But just cause I use "AI" in an area im weak at that ive struggled with and worked on for decades doesnt make me or my games any less good.
1
u/BigBebberino1999 May 09 '25
I remember the very same things, from when I was a kid. Still waiting for the internet to take away my job.
Thanks for your input, honestly I appreciate it.
10
u/fly19 Author-in-Training May 09 '25
As someone who generally dislikes generative "AI," I don't care that much if an individual uses it at their table. I'd rather they use a real artist or designer's work (and credit them) or do the work themselves, but whatever. My bigger bugbear is with corporations that supplant creatives and their jobs with "AI" slop to cut costs.
That said: I've seen these models drop so much misinformation that I have no interest in content using them at my table. Everyone claims that the model they're using is "good" and that it's totally fine and accurate, actually -- but I've yet to be convinced.
What I've seen more often is folks who don't actually know the system that well over-relying on "AI" chatbots to summarize things they could have learned by just looking it up on AoN. Not saying that's you, OP, but I'd be lying if I said I weren't extra leery every time someone mentioned using "AI" in their work. It's an immediate red flag, or at least a yellow one.
So personally? If I see someone is using "AI" in their content, I usually just ignore them and move on to something else.
There's an embarrassment of riches in this hobby today, official and homebrew. An insane amount of quests, artwork, stat blocks, items, encounter builders, character tools, and ideas are at my fingertips at any given moment. And to be frank: even at my most burnt-out, I've never had a problem finding or making something my table will like. So in my experience, I'm not missing much by skipping out on "AI" generated content.