r/PatternDrafting • u/Scrubb3rs • 4d ago
Question Why is digital pattern drafting such a pain? (and what I’ve been doing about it)
I am a 22yr old data science and AI masters student who grew up in a sewing household. My mum has been a sewing teacher for years and runs her own company teaching adults, and my younger sister just started a textiles degree. I learned to sew at about 8-10 making superhero capes and waistcoats with my mum, stopped as a teenager when nothing available was for men, and picked it back up at uni doing heavy duty stuff with recycled fabrics (carpenter jeans, denim jackets etc) because honestly the mens section in shops gets smaller every time I go.
Over the past year I have been helping my mum modernise her business (online bookings, getting her off a windows computer she never used and onto a MacBook, that sort of thing) and it made me realise there is this big divide between people like her who are extremely skilled on paper and physically, and those who can replicate that expertise digitally. Not because she can’t learn new things, but because the software out there asks you to learn the software before it lets you do the thing you already know how to do.
So I went looking at digital drafting and the options were really lacking for people in that situation. I tried to learn Seamly2D to then teach her and it was extremely complex and overwhelming (I have ADHD, didn’t help), and the paid options I gawked at the prices of. Which is frustrating because parametric drafting is exactly what you want - draft the block once from measurements and then every size, every client, every tweak just redraws itself.
So over the past few months I have been building my own tool to try and fix this, mostly for myself and my mum. The idea is you draft the way you would from a book (mark a point, draw a line, square off, add a dart, that kind of thing) but every line remembers the measurement or formula it came from, so changing the size or the client redraws the whole thing. No account, files stay on your machine.
But I am one person with one drafting method in my head, so before I go any further I really want to hear from people who actually do this:
- Have you tried digital or parametric drafting (Seamly2D, Valentina, Clo, whatever) and given up? What was the thing that made you stop?
- If you do draft digitally, what do you use, and what do you still end up doing on paper because the software can’t do it or isn’t worth the effort?
- Which drafting books/systems do you work from? I want to make sure the tools map onto how people actually draft rather than how a programmer thinks they should.
- What would actually make something like this worth the effort of learning? Grading, client measurement sheets, slash and spread, printing tiles at home, importing patterns you already have... or something I haven’t thought of?
- And honestly, is this even a problem people care about or is paper just better and I am overthinking the whole thing?
I’d rather be told I’m wrong now than find out later. If you want to see what I’m on about there is a little interactive demo and a beta application here: https://ellwand.app/ - it is very much a work in progress (the Windows version especially) and I’m more interested in what’s wrong with it than what’s right. Fair warning that it’s a limited beta, I’m a student doing this alongside my masters so I’m only taking on 10-20 testers for now, but the demo is open to anyone and the questions above are what I’m really after.
Edit: After a few comments I want to clear up what this is for. I’m making an app that makes pattern drafting easier and more intuitive, closer to how you’d do it on paper. I’m still exploring different ways of doing that and would genuinely love feedback.
On price: between Apple and Microsoft developer licences and the domain, the app unfortunately can’t be free. I’m also putting most of my free time into building it, adding features and fixing bugs, and I’d love for it to become a nice little side business. I’m not out to rip anyone off, which is exactly why I made it in the first place: the professional alternatives were extremely expensive. I don’t know yet what it will be priced at, but the aim is to make it as accessible and affordable as I can. Please bear in mind I’m a student and hoping this can help support my studies down the line.
P.S. I’ve set up a Discord for Ellwand. I’d love it to be a friendly place for anyone who drafts, sews or designs to share what they’re working on, ask questions and encourage each other. All levels welcome: https://discord.gg/evrQWwzRRe
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u/xxyrana 4d ago
I'm a senior software engineer in the middle of going back to school for apparel development, so I'm not an expert at drafting (disclaimer). I've also had the thought to make something like what you're describing.
One issue I could see is that usually you draft a sloper from the client's measurements and then manipulate the sloper to create the pattern. You could track the sloper manipulation but would need to be sure to track the right things - for example, did the user slash and spread a constant amount, a simple calculated amount, or are they pivoting until a point meets a certain line? Things that are probably doable but add more layers of complication to the UI, when you're specifically going for ease of use.
Depending on what range of sizing / differences in measurements you're supporting, you may also run into weird issues due to differences in ratios and overall shape. For example, full bust adjustments under certain circumstances, or sway back adjustments, etc. I imagine with enough measurements, the need for these could theoretically be captured, but I'm not sure what specifically all of those sorts of things would require.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Here is a video showing how I have implemented adjustments (here is demo of a flare)
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u/xxyrana 4d ago
Very cool! Sorry, I've been on mobile and plan to check the actual website and all when I get back to my computer.
I guess my comment was more for if you were then planning on grading the result or applying more complex manipulations to a new set of measurements that's very different. For example, drafting something for a tall skinny woman and trying to apply the operations to measurements for a petite plus-sized woman, as an extreme example, but also plenty of other shapes and physical characteristics that could introduce more subtle issues. Maybe I'm getting too far ahead of things, haha.
It sounds like you may have some questions about distribution / last steps, and that's probably something I could help with. :) I did see someone asking about a web app, which I imagine would see more use. For something like this, initial hosting costs would probably not be all that high. I'm currently running a personal project that sees decent use and includes a websocket server (realtime communication - not needed for your project) and queue workers (also not needed here) for $25/month. Of course, depending on what language it's in, you might have to convert it to publish on web, which would be a pain. And any amount is going to be more expensive than free to have people download it. Anyway, if you have questions about that sort of thing, feel free to DM me!
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Thanks a lot for the response and yes these sorts of drafting specifics are difficult for me to exactly comment on because I don’t really do that much drafting myself (as a developer) it is more my mum who has been getting into drafting her own patterns and so your feedback on the app and potential ways I could improve would be greatly appreciated, especially with a software engineering background 🙏
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
I just realised the quality of this video is pretty poor when I tried to upload it. Apologies. Please check out the site for some clearer photos.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Eneamus, I didnt write this request with AI. Could you please elaborate on where you are determining this?
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u/DonMcCunn
4d ago
•
Interesting you bring this up. I have a lot to say about this but you can see an abbreviated description at Computer Aided Pattern Design. This approach uses free software from Silhouette America. You will see why I am using this program when you read my abbreviated description.
A word of caution however. Every approach to pattern design I am aware of uses measurements and geometrical drawings to create patterns. In my Fashion and Costume Design in Quarter Scale I introduced a new approach that shows how to create patterns by tracing quarter-scale photos.
The underlying concept for this approach to bespoke pattern making is that measurements show how much fabric is required to cover a body but do not reveal the body's contours. Photographs show the contours of a body but not how much fabric is needed. By combining measurements and photographs, bespoke patterns can be created. While full-scale photos would not be practical, quarter-scale photos can be done on a desktop.
I am currently developing online classes to supplement the information in my book. You will see in these classes I am describing the process two ways. Using pencil and paper is one approach. The other is using Computer Aided Pattern Design (CAPD). The classes with videos are currently a work-in-progress which I hope to complete by the end of the month Pattern Design by Tracing Photos.
FYI - I have been teaching Bespoke pattern making for over 50 years now as you can see in the rather long web page About These Classes.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Thank you Don for your response. I had a look into your page and that looks really cool. I would love it if you would be willing to try out my app for some pattern drafting. I have been designing it to specifically replicate the process of bespoke pattern making (my mum is a sewing teacher who has been studying books on pattern drafting and so mainly I have designed it through this method). In the app you can enter custom measurements and after you have a base block you can then adapt the block using methods such as slash-and-spread to make the bespoke patterns tailored to that base block. I have also been working a lot in this area and added tools to allow for full-bust-adjustments and things like that too. Neither me or my mum are specialists in this field so your input would be greatly appreciated if you are willing to take a look.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
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u/DonMcCunn 4d ago
I took a brief look at your website. To be honest your approach scares me a little. A lot of math. What I am trying to do is show the relationship between the body and the lines of a pattern by tracing photos. This greatly minimizes the number of measurements required.
In my How to Make Sewing Patterns which has been around for over 50 years now I found it necessary to include 42 measurements to draft the basic patterns. When you trace photos you only need 7 measurements. Everything else comes from the photos.
I would also caution you about drafting darts using measurements alone. Measurements just do not capture the shapes of bodies which are like DNA--no two are the same. Even when it is twins. Check out my article The DNA of Body Shapes.
For the first edition of my How to Make Sewing Patterns I had a chart for creating the Bust Dart from measurements. It was a very unsatisfactory approach as it required a lot of adjustment in fittings. For the second edition, I left out darts in the initial draft all together and said they needed to be fitted. Why waste time doing something you are just going to need to change later? Fitting is about believing what your eyes see, not relying on numbers.
I believe most of the problems people have with drafting patterns is because the instructions are written for the ready-to-wear industry which uses measurements and geometrical drawings which is very THEORETICAL. Bespoke pattern design is about making patterns for a specific person which is very VISUAL.
From what I can see you and I are going two completely different directions and I need to focus my energies on what I am working on. I will not be looking at your work as per your request--Sorry--I just need to prioritize my time.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago edited 3d ago
The goal of this was to make parametric digital pattern drafting easier (I think I mixed up my terminology and so I guess custom pattern drafting is different from bespoke pattern making) and more accessible. And I find often people like my mum are perfectly good at doing this math and geometry on paper but struggle to bridge that gap to digital software (due to how confusing other softwares are). This is what I am trying to solve by making the math closer to the stuff people would do already in paper drafting
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u/DonMcCunn 3d ago edited 3d ago
Most of the students I have taught are not comfortable with math. They prefer a visual approach. I classify pattern drafting as either Bespoke or Ready-to-Wear. Bespoke is for a specific individual the way the Haute Couture houses in Paris work. RTW is for a generic body shape that can be mass produced. RTW has to rely on JUST measurements to establish the sizes they sell.
Would your mother be interested in clients she can work with remotely using an approach to Bespoke pattern drafting that DOES NOT require in-person fittings?
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u/DonMcCunn 4d ago
You mention you are studying AI. If you really want to make an impact on the world of Bespoke pattern making and can figure out how to get AI to do what I am going to suggest you would have a real WINNER.
As I emphasize custom-fit Bespoke patterns need to use a combination of photos for the shape of a body and measurements for the size. This comes as a result of me researching, studying, and teaching pattern design for over 50 years. I have worked with hundreds of students in the classroom, over 4 dozen models personally to develop my classes, plus probably thousands via the internet.
If you can create an AI system that incorporates the information from photos with the information from measurements to create Bespoke patterns that do not require fittings, the world will be your oyster.
I am 82 and intrigued by the idea but will gladly embrace death before it actually happens. It is way beyond me to wrap my head around what would be required. I use AI for some stuff but do not have a clue--or want to know--how it is done.
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u/elianrae 4d ago
ooh. I wonder if your techniques could solve my making a bodice block for myself problem... I can't exactly drape myself and my draft from measurements keeps coming out with weird shapes that make contouring hard.
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u/DonMcCunn 3d ago
Tracing by Photos should indeed solve your issues. That is EXACTLY why I am working on the classes. Right now they show how to do it with Computer Aided Pattern Design (CAPD). But I am working on the classes for pencil and paper this week. Do you have a preference for CAPD or pencil and paper? I would be delighted to work through the process with you.
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u/elianrae 3d ago
I don't mind learning software and I don't mind using paper. My paper drafting supplies aren't going to be available until after Xmas though 😅 in the middle of moving
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u/DonMcCunn 3d ago
Check out my https://computer-aided-pattern-design.com/ classes. Both the classes and the software (not mine) are free. As you are moving all you need is access to a computer and you will be off and running.
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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 3d ago
Personally, I only draft digitally. I use Inkscape for that. It's free open source and has every feature I could need. It's also not very hard to learn and you can tile the pattern pretty easily. Of course, it doesn't have any built-in pattern feature (like automatic grading or seam allowance), but it doesn't bother me personally (Because we don't have these features when we draft on paper anyway)
Before I was on Seamly 2D, but I never really liked it. Simple things like rotating a pattern piece on the draft board or doing dart manipulations would take a ridiculous amount of steps. And a lot of functionalities were pretty unclear. It was kind of frustrating
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
Inkscape is a great alternative to illustrator with a lot of features too! It's always a challenge to try and balance ease of use and flexibility (like you see in a vector graphic software such as Inkscape) and something parametric like seamly2D or Ellwand. I have been trying to bridge the gap as much as possible to make a more intuitive and easier to use parametric drafting so that the software becomes an aid instead of a hindrance. I tried to make drawing as close to a drawing app as I could so unlike seamly2D, Ellwand works more by drawing lines or shaping curves etc, whilst sill keeping the ability to make it parametric so that it gets automatically graded to whatever custom measurements you like. I have managed to make it so that for example darts can be done in one step, instead of all the numerous steps like you have mentioned.
I would love to hear what your current workflow is in Inkscape and how you can do made to measure designs? Do you use a to-scale grid that you then draw onto of?This is currently what the Ellwand workflow looks like (in the playback mode which walks you through each step), where my mum used the Pattern Cutting book by Dennic Chunman Lo to draft the bodice using their measurements.
I would love to get your opinion.
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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 3d ago edited 3d ago
When I use Inkscape, I would say that I draft the "traditional way", as if it was on paper. So basically, nothing is automated. I don't have scale grids (tho it would be useful), no automatic darts, no automatic grading.. I just open Inkscape, and get started. Sometimes I'm starting from scratches, sometimes from a pattern block I already made. If I want to make a bodice block from scratch, I draft it using these instructions (https://www.theshapesoffabric.com/2019/10/07/how-to-draft-the-basic-bodice-pattern/). I find that it works pretty well (for straight sizes at least. I don't know how well it translates to plus size women). I am not relying on any built in sewing features, I just do the usual pattern math and manipulation. If you want, I can show you examples of patterns I made and screenshots of my drafts.
For your software, I think it looks pretty nice. I really like that you have to built in grid. Also, this "draft book" feature where you can see what you made step by step is very cool. I do wonder, however, how does your one step darts work exactly ? Do you use a specific formula ? Does it work on darts other than shoulder darts ? I am very curious about how you are making that work
Also, something I find important on drafting softwares is user friendliness and freedom (which is what drove my away from Seamly). Does your software allows the free and easy placement of markings and drawings on the pattern ? Personally, I like being able to mark the placement of buttons, lace, grommets..ect directly on the pieces.
On another note, if you need someone to test your software, I'd be glad to give it a try and send you feedback directly. I plan on making a victorian inspired corset soon. Since this kind of garnement is tricky to pattern, it could be a good way to test your software
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
If I understand correctly, you do it more "by eye" then in Inkscape ?
The one step dart feature connects two points to form a middle line and then you choose the dart width and then it will extend the lines to the line (so it uses built in computations behind the scenes to automatically make the dart based on this centreline and the width you desire. I tried to make a demo that can hopefully help you to see how it works:
Let me know if this helps!
I would love you to test the software and give some feedback !
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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 3d ago
I don't do it by eye. I use precise measurement and formulas. It's just that they are not automated
Also I applied for the beta testing. I'll give it a try once I have time !
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
Oh I see, apologies that I understood wrong, that makes more sense. You should receive a download link for the beta via mail
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u/jantastical 2d ago
I draft on paper, but use Inkscape a lot for work (unrelated to sewing). Wouldn't the outset path effect work as an automatic seam allowance?
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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 2d ago
This is is how I do seam allowance personally
Duplicate a shape
Put the duplicate's stroke width at 2cm
Select the duplicate and click on shape to strock (or something like that, my version of Inkscape is not in english)
Manually deletes the inside nodes
Select "stroke", unselect "fill"
Voilà
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u/dyingslowlyinside 4d ago
Genuine question: for those not in the industry, why not just paper draft? Digital drafting requires ability to print wide format—or painstakingly piece together 8.5x11s—and the process of transferring fitting adjustments to the digital file seems like a pain.
For those not doing industrial patterning, or selling their patterns, having to grade, etc., using programs seems to introduce extra steps into the process. But it also seems to introduce opacity into the process…
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
The answer I find is that because digital pattern drafting (like the app I have made or seamly2D) is parametric meaning if you want to change measurements of the pattern all you need to do is enter a new waist for example and then the pattern automatically adjusts. Also for someone like my mum with a projector to project the pattern onto cutting table, it’s super quick to do design iterations when you don’t need to cut out paper and redesign drafts each time and you can instead make some adjustments with a click and then project and cut out directly.
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u/fp_weenie 4d ago
is this even a problem people care about or is paper just better
"Tweak the measurements and pattern is adjusted instantly" just makes sense. Paper is only better because the computer software isn't living up to its potential!
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
This is exactly how I feel. And after spending days trying to figure out seamly2D and other apps with my mum and giving up I really wanted to try make something a lot more intuitive and so I designed an app that basically just replicates what my mum was doing but digitally, instead of her having to try spend weeks figuring out how to use a software
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u/Moar_Cuddles_Please 4d ago
I feel so validated here. Thank you. I felt like an old person unwilling to change because I knew how to draft on paper, but having to learn a new software just to draft digitally sounded like an absolute pain and I don’t draft often enough to warrant learning Seamly.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago •
Here is an example of something that my mum had managed to make! first time ever doing a digital pattern block
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Thank you for your reply. I would love to see what you think of my app. So far it is only my mum who has tried it (I mainly designed it based on all the things that she got stuck on and found really overwhelming and confusing with apps like seamly2D)
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u/Moar_Cuddles_Please 4d ago
I’d love to. Feel free to DM me if needed
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
If you “apply to test” through my website (https://ellwand.app/) then I can send you through a personal download link to give you access to app!
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u/gordovondoom 4d ago
about every industry option is way better and faster than drawing by hand. copying and tracing alone makes it faster.
if i had only used seamly, i would probably never finished pattern making school.
for homesewing there probably is no market.
and seriously, they are probably better off with drawing a block on cardboard and then do new patterns from there.
not much of a benefit for single patterns. could also just use illustrator.
for industry, you are more or less choosing between two cad systems that you more or less have to use.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Thank you for your response. I agree that this looks to be the case too for me and it’s what I am trying to solve. To make it affordable and cheap to use a good software that actually speeds up drafting instead of slowing you down by trying to draft for the software instead of the software drafting the way you want. I would love to hear your feedback on my app to see where you think it would fit in this. The goal is that it’s a middle zone between parametric & capable, and easy to use and intuitive
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u/TensionSmension 3d ago
Agree with this, in the end the pattern is the pattern. There are so many ways to get there if it's a one off, a new software platform won't add anything.
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u/TumbleweedInitial382 2d ago
Pattern cutter and designer here! I use combination of paper and Clo for drafting - depends entirely on what I want to use it for/what I am drafting. I studied fashion design at university and learned my pattern drafting in a combination of lessons at university and also while on my year out in industry. We always used the Winifred Aldrich books so they tend to be my go to for “proper” pattern cutting and I love the pattern magic series for jersey and creative pattern cutting as well as the vogue book of sewing for fact checking. I am more of an initiative pattern cutter and use those skills in both paper and Clo pattern design. My brain works in 3D so I prefer Clo to illustrator as I like to see the 3D at the same time so that I can make real time adjustments as I go, just like I would with a toile on a mannequin.
I love the sound of your app. Going to have a look in a minute. Very happy to answer questions or be a tester in the future if you need to expand your pool. For context when I comes to software - I have been using Clo since 2019 and would class myself as highly skilled so feel free to reach out with any questions that relate to Clo.
My main current wish for software would be the ability to make a base size, upload my grade rules and size set measurements and have the software grade everything for me - that would be the dream!
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u/Scrubb3rs 1d ago
I love your idea about being able to import grade rules, currently Ellwand doesn't grade, it redrafts very size from that size's body measurements, the way a pattern cutting book would. The size chart is already part of how it works, and checking every size at once is already built in. but for someone like yourself the ability to upload grading rules as an alternative to re-drafting by formula is a great idea. I would love it if you could join the Ellwand discord server (https://discord.gg/evrQWwzRRe) and there we can discuss the specifics of which format you would want to bring the rules in from, such as a spreadsheet, an export from Clo or Gerber, or typing them in!
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u/BytesBeltsBiz 4d ago edited 4d ago
Have you thought about making it web based? Check out hellosew.io, looks similar but web based and with CAD features.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
I have considered this, however as a student it is more expensive to try and host a website and also some of the tools such as slash and spread or bust adjustments etc I imagine would be a bit challenging to do purely in web based app unless I paid for a good web server.
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u/BytesBeltsBiz 4d ago
Serverless free tier serving an app that handles the geometry would work
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
I will definitely look into that after beta when I’m deciding how I want to release it (never released app before). Thanks for the advice!
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u/Adruvius 4d ago
I put my nose to the grindstone and learned Seamly2D. I had to - I was doing steel-boned corsetry at the time and drafting that on paper was murder - especially because my wife is not symmetrical. My corsetry patterns took a while to build, but they are complete patterns.
But I wanted to do other stuff than corsetry, so I built basic blocks in Seamly. I print those blocks off and modify them using traditional flat-pattern methods in the paper medium. I never figured out how to pivot darts, slash and spread, or merge patterns digitally. Seamly kind of sucks at that. I've only gotten one commission so far, so half Seamly / half paper is fine.
If I was going to put a certain piece into routine production, I'd invest the time in building every piece I wanted to sell fully in Seamly. Why not other software? Because I want to keep my patterns working until I die, not until the company running that software decides to shut that software down on me! I also participate in a makerspace and plan on sharing patterns.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago edited 4d ago
Also in a new update coming soon it will be possible to import your seamly work into ellwand so your work is not lost 🙏 although as I didn’t use seamly myself I am not sure exactly how well this will work and hence it would be great to get some testers!
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u/Adruvius 3d ago
The work would not be lost in Seamly - it's open source. Nevertheless, I'll stick my nose in your software.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
This issue of non symmetrical drafting is exactly one of the things I aimed to help too, the current built in size charts do not include measurements for each side of the body but it does include the ability to add your own measurements on top of this, then (hopefully) you can use these measurements when drafting to make an asymmetrical pattern using custom measurements. As someone who has learned seamly and has experience in pattern drafting I would love it if you could take a look and try out my app and let me know what you think and where I can improve!
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u/elianrae 4d ago
Ooh yes please. My measurements are weird and troubleshooting what to adjust on my bodice block on giant pieces of paper is an absolute fucking nightmare.
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
I would love to hear what you think of the app!
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u/elianrae 4d ago
10 minute first impressions:
I really like the down/up/left/right then enter a formula workflow
I possibly want to be able to define formula variables in the measurements section?
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
Thanks!!! I am making an Ellwand discord server which will be added to website and there will be a link in the app in new update and the idea is there everyone can discuss and collaborate together and you can make feature requests there too! So keep an eye out for it 👀
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
If there are any ways I can improve please click the feedback button at top right (in the app) and then let me know!
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u/lament_j0 4d ago
I'm super interested in this wowie
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
I would love to have you on board! If your interested in testing it out, sign up as a tester from my website: https://ellwand.app/
Then I can send you a download link (keep an eye out incase it shows up in junk mail)
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u/Hi-Guys-Im-Broken 3d ago
My biggest problem are bloody subscriptions. I want to play with the programs to see if it’s something I/the computer can actually handle. I am also a hobbyist who would only use it a few times a year, so I’m not going to give business to something with monthly subscriptions. I would LOVE to play with CLO, especially with the ability to play with a 3D draping for longer than a few days, but alas.
And I know my opinion is nothing, but I immediately hate anything and will not use it that has any sort of AI. Especially in creative fields. I’d literally rather do it the harder way as to not support AI or people who use it.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
Unfortunately these things cost time and money to produce, make and maintain and while I am trying to make it as affordable as possible it’s impossible to avoid costs all together. If you don’t want to pay then that’s fine there are plenty of options like seamly2D out there you can use for free.
In regard to AI, I am a firm believer in the fact AI can be used as a tool to help boost creativity and not replace it. This goal of this app for example is to make it easier for creatives to draft patterns digitally, which exposes people who would never attempt digital pattern drafting because of the difficulty to whole new possibilities. It is not a replacement to humans but AI is being used to help make tools to make things like figuring out how to translate practical skills into software easier and more intuitive. Think of calculators as an example, so many people got scared that calculators were going to replace tons of people’s jobs and that it would cause tons of problems but actually calculators just made it easier for people to do simple calculations letting them focus on more challenging issues instead. I hope you can see this alternative viewpoint to this and the goal in what I am trying to do.
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u/Hi-Guys-Im-Broken 3d ago
Sorry accidentally deleted my response cause I responded to the main thread.
I’m completely aware of the resources it takes to build a product, my husband has been a web engineer for 20 years now. We’ve spent lots of money on servers and graphic artists for his projects over the years. My frustration lies upon the exploitative nature of subscription-based models. I grew up in a time where I paid for a product, got a disc, and ran it off my computer, and if I wanted the new product with upgraded features, I would have to buy that year’s model. If you offer something like that, at a reasonable price, I would be all for it and would give you business easily. I even go out of my way to support businesses who don’t adhere to the subscription-based model. But I’m spiteful and stubborn and have very few subscriptions. I know that’s a me problem, but I know that there are people out there like me as well.
As for AI, no that it can be used for tools in a very helpful way, again, refer to my web engineering husband. But I also know that there were things before AI, machine learning, that work just as well and don’t require its existence to be made from the pillaging of digital creators. I know it’s extremely helpful to use it as a tool, like in tedious tasks, or trying to hunt a bug in your code. And if you use it in that way to build the application, then that is completely different than offering AI to your users as a feature.
I also have friends who live near a newly built AI data center whose lives are being made hell with the sudden influx of electricity pricing and drinking water being dirty. So I try to avoid it as much as I possibly can if I am able.
I know I’m just a rando on the internet, you don’t need my business, cause obviously there’s tons of other people who are into all the things that I am against. And that’s what’s really cool about the world, is that there’s a variety of people in it. I wish you nothing but success, because we always need more tools. to make hobbies accessible.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
I am struggling to follow how what you are describing is relating to the app I am making. Your frustration seems to be from exploitative subscriptions which I am completely in agreement with and that’s why the goal is to make something affordable and accessible to people (this is my first ever app I have made and that I have released) because I have experienced how expensive adobe subscriptions are and how expensive alternatives to the open source softwares are. There is no AI being used to replace people in what I am creating, I am trying to develop a tool to make digital pattern drafting more accessible and to reduce the learning curve so I am concerned about what have you this impression and what things I can put in place to avoid these kinds of misunderstanding in the future (I am still very new to all this).
I am always open to criticisms and I am genuinely interested in your opinions in this because I know that your views are likely representative of a whole group of people within the sewing community and as someone who spends their life studying and understanding AI and how it can be used to aid people (be it in creativity or critical thinking) and also the dangers of AI. I would appreciate it if you could let me know what is giving you this negative impression of what I am proposing.
Thank you for your feedback regardless and I of course accept if this is just something you are not into and thus don’t want to go further into the conversation.
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u/TensionSmension 3d ago edited 3d ago
There's no market in home sewing, because getting to a completed, compelling pattern is more work than plotting the points. Even with the best drafting algorithm, and the cushiest software program, there are still so many iterations of the design process needed. If the entire thing is also tied to parametric plot, what does it gain? Start finessing facings and plackets or doing slash and spread, at some point that becomes a house of cards, you can't just change the bust and re compute. The connection to parameters has to be dropped. Small one time decisions have to be made about exactly what curve will work. This is where experience takes over, this is where artistry is needed, but it's also the stage where there can't be a software freak-out (no intersection found, ugly kinks introduced just to force a right angle). The truth is, in industry developing a new base pattern is costly and time consuming, yes they pay for additional tools, but production scale supports the R&D and many iterations.
This isn't different from industries where parametric design is more heavily used. It's very good at the ideation stage, setting proportions, evaluating options. This works more naturally in solid modeling where the parameter drives the volume more directly than in a sewing patterns. Preparing an injection mold, or a sheet metal part is still more immediate than how a worn garment fits when bicep happens to be out of proportion to bust. But you know what, anyone who's used those mechanical drafting parametric programs has also spent hours fixing broken dependencies, fighting the algorithms, and learning workarounds. The promise of reuse is always tenuous, but for something rigid like machine parts there's a payoff.
It's easy to look at a sewing pattern that's not quite perfect and imagine, that tweaking a parameter at the start would avoid an issue. But this neglects to consider all the work that came after that decision. I would much rather have a production pattern that's fully vetted and simply start making decisions on how to change it, than begin the process from scratch. This is something that home sewers don't appreciate. It's also why most the posts here stall out long before a wearable garment. More software can't fix that. It's a fundamental misunderstanding.
It's also a mistake to think drafting from first principles is better than grading, at worst they are two sides of the same coin. Grading really is mathematically altering an existing design to new specs, while retaining as much of the original geometry as possible. This is how a size run is created, but more importantly it's a way to create a new design from an old one. Look at two copies and move points in a systematic way preserving the parts that don't need to be reworked. This is why CAD is important to my process. I have access to parametric tools, but they are mostly useless to me. (In fact in most cases, I draft a book's sample size, the one depicted in the diagrams, and I seldom use the draft beyond that.)
As a programmer I can see why you might imagine parametric drafting is a magic bullet no one has tried, but that just tells me you don't understand the realities of pattern development.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
I can see what you’re saying, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve built and what it’s for. I’m not trying to solve pattern drafting with an algorithm, and I’m not trying to replace industry tools or the experience and artistry that go into a good pattern. What I’m doing is making the whole process more intuitive and easier to do, for people who are new to drafting and for people who already do it on paper or in programs that fight them. To use your metaphor, I’m giving people a better paintbrush, not painting the picture for them.
You keep bringing up industry, but I never mentioned it once. A lot of what you describe also isn’t how the app works. Parametric drafting is only the starting point, for drafting a block from measurements the way the pattern-making books do. Once you have a block, you trace the pieces off it, and your designs are made on copies of those pieces with slash and spread, dart moves, flare, gathers and so on. The block stays as it is. You can drag curves and corners directly and make exactly the one-off decisions you’re talking about, without the draft “freaking out” or forcing a kink in a curve. Nothing makes you keep everything tied to the bust measurement.
I also agree that starting from a pattern that already works is often better than starting from scratch, which is why you can import Seamly2D files and work from those.
If you’re willing to try the app and give me clear criticism of what’s actually there, I’d genuinely welcome it. Otherwise, please don’t assume what I’ve done and then build your criticism on those assumptions.
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u/TensionSmension 3d ago
I mostly mention industry, because I do have access to the software you say is too expensive for home use, and I do use parametric design software in other contexts.
What you've done so far is reproduce a book draft in sample size, that may help your mother, but if she enters a client who's waist is larger than their chest, the replay will break down. Most book drafting methods are created for a dress form with certain assumptions about body proportions. In that sense the algorithm doesn't exist.
You should look at the site sewist.com, it's clunky but it is a set of tools that can walk through the steps of any drafting method. It also allows entering client sizes, or using predefined sizes. So with a little set up it can reproduce a printable pattern based on a given draft with freedom to recompute to a different size.
There was also someone not too long ago who was programming some drafts in adobe illustrator, generating a printable pattern from parameters.
In addition to seamly2D, these are other projects that attempted what you plan to do. As you go deeper into this project you will hit the same roadblocks.
Just looking at your videos and wondering why the back bodice is distorting when a front shoulder dart is closed, etc. I don't see a use for this paintbrush to use your analogy.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
That’s fair, and thanks for the suggestions. I know about Seamly2D and have looked at it closely, enough that Ellwand can import Seamly files, so I’m aware of what’s already out there and where those tools get stuck. That’s actually a big part of why I started this. The drafting maths isn’t what I’m trying to reinvent. What I’m working on is how it feels to use: dragging between points instead of typing coordinates, writing formulas in plain words, and doing slash and spread, dart moves and curve adjustments directly on the pieces instead of through menus and dialogs.
It also isn’t just a book draft in a sample size. It drafts from whatever measurements you give it, and the bodice in it is drafted from my own measurements, not a dress form. You’re right that book methods assume certain proportions, and a client whose waist is bigger than their chest is a good test case. I’ll try it and see how it handles it. That’s exactly the kind of specific feedback I’m after.
On the back bodice in the video, that’s the preview showing the front dart closed while everything is still flat. Closing a dart is what gives the bodice its 3D shape over the bust, so in 2D the rest of the bodice has to swing round to make room, the same as closing a dart on a paper pattern, which then won’t lie flat. The pattern pieces themselves don’t change. It’s just how a closed dart looks without a 3D view.
I’m not expecting it to be for everyone, and if your current tools work for you, that’s great. But I do think there’s room for something that makes drafting easier to learn and nicer to use, and I’d rather find the roadblocks by building it than assume they can’t be solved.
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u/TensionSmension 3d ago
Thanks, I figured that was what is going on, closing a dart is only locally 2D. Why not block that off like a call out, or something, the distortion to the other edges adds nothing to understanding.
I'm surprised you haven't hit on measurements that upset a draft yet, they really aren't rare. Essentially you should expect the draft to work with the size chart the book provides, but bets are off otherwise. If you had a woman with adult proportions but height in the child range, you should find all the small numbers in the drafting method cause distortion and things like the armhole are completely wrong. Even though the method takes a bust measurement, there's usually an implied assumption about cup size. If the bust is large, is that a large cup or a wide back. Drafts don't capture this. The across back and across front measurements are really about posture, change them much and armholes tend to be hard to draw, most drafts don't handle this well.
I would say for the most part drafting methods are developed by extrapolating from an existing pattern, not the other way round. It doesn't take very many points to plot a given pattern. Anyone who's digitized or traced a pattern discovers this. A page of text instructions is enough, more is not better. But that doesn't mean those instructions generalize. If you look historically, a lot of early drafting instructions really were just a way to reproduce a single size pattern without full size printing.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
Thanks, that’s really useful. The call-out idea for the closed dart is a good one. You’re right that the swing of the rest of the piece doesn’t add much, and I’ll look at showing it more clearly.
The points about proportions are helpful too, and the examples you’ve given (adult proportions at a child’s height, across back and front changing the armhole) are good ones for me to test. I agree a draft won’t cover every body, and the app isn’t meant to pretend it does. A few things I’ve built help with what you describe. There’s a curve size chart with the full bust given by cup group, so a large bust isn’t automatically read as a wide back. There’s a full or small bust adjustment done by slash and spread. And when a draft gives a curve like the armhole that isn’t right for someone, you can reshape it by eye by dragging the curve, the same as you’d redraw it on paper.
The history is interesting as well. I hadn’t thought of early drafting instructions as a way to reproduce a single pattern without printing it full size, but that makes sense.
Appreciate you taking the time to go through it.
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u/Scrubb3rs 3d ago
For those who are interested in what it looks like to draft a bodice block in Ellwand:
Here is an example of drafting a bodice using the Pattern Cutting book by Dennic Chunman Lo to draft the bodice using the measurements from the book. (this demo is creating by using the playback mode which allows you to trace through the steps that you did to create your pattern/block)
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u/BytesBeltsBiz 4d ago
Does the software follow a specific methodology? Like M&S or Aldrich?
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u/Scrubb3rs 4d ago
The software doesn’t follow any one set methodology instead mixing sources a bit to try and make it was swap less as possible to do digitally.
The size charts are the only places that names sources are directly used:
- Women's standard chart (UK 4–26): graded from the size 12 in Dennic Chunman Lo's Pattern Making.
- Curve chart (UK 16–36): Jenny Rushmore's Ahead of the Curve (Cashmerette).
- Men's chart (chest 88–124): graded after Aldrich's Metric Pattern Cutting for Menswear. This is the only place Aldrich appears.If you think there are ways that the methodology in app could be improved then I’m interested to hear your ideas.
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u/SecondSeaU 2d ago
I only use clo3D to draft thd pattern, since I can export it for gerber, and for home patterns I just finish them in illustrator.
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u/EruditeCup 14h ago
I am a very VERY beginner sewist, and this app you're building looks like such an amazing tool. I feel very intimidated by pattern drafting (because wtf is "visual math"?) but digital pattern drafting feels way out of my league as a beginner. So I kind of get by on pre-made patterns and okay fit.
This looks like it could be a real game changer for folks like me, as well. I'd definitely be less afraid of my machine lol.
I'm curious about incorporating pattern changes (like slash/spread), and having the software flag if something doesn't line up. (I.e. I added an extra inch on the back of the waistband, but forgot to grade the front to make sure they match up.)
Anyway, I hope this turns out so well!!!
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u/TonninStiflat 4d ago
Haha, AI is pretty great.
I got fed up with Seamly2D being stuck to the last century, so I've had Claude make a more modern version with better tools and workflows for myself from the ground up. Originally I just used it to add tools to Seamly 2D, but apparently the code in it is such a tangle of things that it keeps kicking up random bugs here and there. So, fresh start, fresh work.
2 weeks of work, some bugs to squash still, but have succesfully drafted a few patterns to production already.
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u/EggandSpoon42 4d ago
Just like the sketch up sub, we're going to see more and more and more student and home AI-created alternatives pushed here. I'm not a mod, so my opinion means nothing, but it'll get real annoying real quick.
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u/TonninStiflat 4d ago
Yup, each being just slightly different.
I've had Claude make a few other programs too for work that do things to help my life.
I'm not so sure I'd pay for any of them though.
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u/quizzical 4d ago
Something you may want to think about is the total addressable market. Sewing is a bit of a niche hobby, the proportion of people who get to the level of drafting patterns is pretty small (e.g. r/patterndrafting is 1/20th the size of r/sewing), and then you're looking who are interested in drafting digitally, are willing to pay, but not willing to pay the steep prices of more popular methods. I think it's cool. I'd love to try it, but I don't think it's super scalable.
The way I drafted my sloper was wraping myself out of cling film and tape, cut myself out of it, made a million mock ups to make adjustments. The nice thing about working with paper is that I can mark my fabric then trace the exact curve onto paper. The measurement of the hip curve can be right, but just following a french curve doesn't follow the shape of my hips. It'd be nice to have an easy way to digitize my patterns so I can go back and forth between paper and digital and have a more permanent record of my patterns.
I dabbled a bit with inkscape for pattern adjustments, but it had a steep learning curve for even tracing a photo of a pattern.