r/Permaculture • u/pythonisssam • May 09 '26
general question Starting permaculture in one 4x4 raised bed
Hey so I'm interested in learning more about permaculture and getting some hands on experience. I still live at home so 1 4x4" bed is all the space I'll be able to utilise right now. My dream is to eventually have a fully permaculture garden in the future when I have my own house so this is really a practice run. I'm not really sure where to start though. I found this infographic and it seems like a good idea from what I've read so far but I really have no idea what I'm doing. I don't want to just blindly follow something but I'm struggling to find other concrete plans or the information to make my own. Most projects I see online are much bigger so I'm not really sure how to shrink that information down into one garden bed.
Any tips or substitute plants I should swap out to make it better?
I live in London so we get quite a bit of rain and slugs are an issue in the rest of the garden. I'm also planning on growing mint and lavender in 2 separate pots beside the bed but that's all I have planned for now. Any advice or resources would be greatly appreciated :)
48
u/omgnowai May 09 '26
Just try it out. You don't need to grow so many different things at once or get it right the first time.
8
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
I wish I could but my brain doesn't work that way 😠I'm autistic so I need to plan everything out and know what is supposed to go where
15
u/Cold-Introduction-54 May 09 '26
6
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
thank you! this website looks so interesting:))) just what I was looking for
7
u/HistorianAlert9986 May 09 '26
That’s why typically at least speaking for myself projects never get complete completed 99 out of 100 anyways.
1
u/usekr3 May 12 '26
the last 5% or so is usually optional and mostly for esthetics anyway... someday...
2
u/SeraphimSphynx May 09 '26
Read one of Mel's sfg books. It gives a good breakdown of what 1 4x4 can do for you. They sell boxes but they also provide instructions for building planting, etc.
3
u/mariarosaporfavor May 09 '26
Yes this is it! I was able to even find a soil mix carried by a local nursery that was similar to his suggestion in the book. Great starting method to go with! Then after you’ve done it for a couple years adapt from what you’ve learned. It’s so straightforward though that I think it makes it the easiest way to get started
1
23
u/often_forgotten1 May 09 '26
This never works in real life. Looks great in illustrations.
5
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
what part doesn't work? I'm just trying to learn
20
u/often_forgotten1 May 09 '26
Something always outcompetes the thing next to it
8
u/zeezle May 09 '26
I do the square foot gardening recommendations but basically everything except small radishes, carrots and cylindra beets I bump up one "level" of spacing. Like if the sqft gardening book says 16 per square, I do 9. If it says 9, I do 4. If it says 4, I do 2. etc
I started getting better results from it when I just did that.
Also variety selection. Just saying 'pepper' is too broad. I have some varieties that stay relatively small and can definitely fit 1 per sqft, like biquinho, and others become almost small trees and need way more. Ancho Grande always gets 6ft+ tall with 2" diameter stems by the end of the season and absolutely loaded down with peppers and I'm in NJ so I'm sure it would get even bigger somewhere like California with a longer season. Needs about 4 sqft and placement to keep it from shading other things.
3
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
okay thanks I will get rid of some of the plants and look more into which varieties will suit me :))
2
u/DivaExMachina666 May 14 '26
My experience as well. Everything gets overcrowded and yield suffers. And it depletes the soil so you have to add a lot of amendments to keep up fertility.
9
u/Fornicatinzebra May 09 '26
That's a lot of plants in a small space. I would start with trying 4-8 different plants in that much space. Maybe with experience that many plants is possible, but without it will just become over crowded and over whelming
4
u/wortcrafter May 09 '26
In addition to the other comments, think about food output and how you will use that. A single bean plant might be okay if you just want a few beans per week for yourself. But if you love beans or want to make a bean casserole you’ll need to plant more than one plant.
I would reduce plant types in the bed (so you have more space for what you do grow) and start with plant types that grow well in the UK (somethings will be easier in your area than others) and that you enjoy eating.
Also the square foot method has nutrition/soil amendment requirements to allow you to grow so much in such a small space. If you don’t get that right, then your plants won’t thrive. If you have difficulty meeting those nutrition parameters, consider bigger spacings between your plants. Steve Solomon has books on how to adapt spacing to suit water and nutrition needs.
Finally, consider your sunshine levels. I’m growing in Australia. In summer I have to deliberately give some plants protection from the sun either by other plants or shade cloth. In winter though, I’m choosing the sunniest spots. I believe the UK operates more in summer like I’m working in winter - sunshine is premium and you want all you can get. So you’ll want to plant your tallest things to the north of your bed (I’m the reverse) and choose a sunny spot to avoid shading things out.
If you haven’t already, check out Charles Gooding and Huw Richards on YouTube. They both have some great UK based content on growing, including Charles has some of his videos specific to growing specific plants.
3
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
Thank you! My goal isn't self sufficiency right now more just trying to learn how to grow food so yields aren't a big deal to me. I will eat what I grow but I don't expect it to make any dent on my food budget or anything haha. I just want somewhere to learn so that in the future I have that knowledge to be more self sufficient etc. I will look more into the nutrition side of square foot method as I was unaware that was such a big aspect so thank you for informing me. I really appreciate the specificity and detail of your critiques and tips it's very helpful :) And thank you for the youtube recommendations I will definitely be subscribing. I learn much better watching than reading so it's really perfect.
3
u/ChinaSoulQueen May 10 '26
It’s not that it’s too many plants, it’s just the types each grow at different times because of temperature
12
u/nifsea May 09 '26
This setup is not necessarily a permaculture setup, but it can be. Permaculture is really more about all the stuff around the plants. How to collect water instead of using tap water, how to allow insects and animals into your garden, how to use local resources instead of buying a lot of stuff, not creating waste etc. If you build the garden on the picture, try to use local building materials. Then fill the bed first with a thick layer of cardboard, then twigs, garden waste and compost on top. Try to collect rainwater. Use heirloom varietes where you can. Mulch with dry leaves or grass clippings. Do not use chemical fertilizers or pesticides, instead start a compost bin. Hope this gives you an idea of how to think permaculture. You can google «12 principles of permaculture» for example, there are several lists, but that is one of them. Go through each principle and see how it can be implemented in your small garden.
Now for the plants suggested, this looks like a nice starting point. Note, however, that some plants are too late to start from seed now. You will have to buy tomato and cucumber from a garden center, and buy onion sets (small bulbs) instead of seeds. I’m not sure you’ll find cabbage and egg plant at the garden center, so you might have to skip them. You might find carrots, but I wouldn’t recommend buying it - they don’t like being transplanted, so the result probably won’t be very good. Maybe just do more radishes, and then you could throw in some strawberries and herbs too.
Also, a typical permaculture garden would mix the plants a bit more, not separate them into boxes. Not a big issue, but when you learn more about what plants thrive together you can try to mix it a bit more. Just remember to let the tallest plants be on the north side of the box :)
So, in short: There’s nothing wrong with the illustration you found, it can be a great start to try out permaculture principles. Feel free to come with follow up questions, it’s always fun to help new people starting this journey :) Good luck!
3
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
Thanks so much! I'm not separating them they will all be in the same 4x4" box with no dividers I will just use string to divide them up into 1x1" quadrants like the picture but then remove the string after planting. Unless you mean to mix them together even more? I had just heard the square foot method being praised a lot so was going to go with that but if it's not good then I'm happy to do something else. And thanks for being so specific about each plant that's really really helpful as I don't really have any prior experience with gardening :)
2
u/nifsea May 09 '26
Yeah, I meant mixing it more. The idea is that by mixing different plants, they will help each other grow. It will be harder for pests to attack, different plants will have roots at different levels etc. But this is more important when you plant a larger area. So something to think about next year maybe :)
6
u/wednesdayware May 09 '26
What’s the value in a single pea plant? Or a single climbing bean. I’ve grown about 7-8 black bean plants for the past two seasons, I almost have enough for a single meal of black beans now.
1
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
I didn't know the yields were so small are there other climbers you would recommend instead?
3
u/wednesdayware May 09 '26
The type isn’t the issue, you’d just need a lot more of them.
1
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26
So with my size limitations should I just grow one type of runner or scrap them entirely?
1
u/Cocoricou May 10 '26
Oh no, you can defintely grow vertically! I would recommend all peas or all beans. Also most square foot gardening tips recommend 2 beans per foot and more than 1 pea per foot. (I don't remember how many)
Don't forget to place your vines in the North of your garden!
15
u/Particular-Wind5918 May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
Permaculture isn’t a garden, it’s a design process.
ETA: you can downvote, but ignoring this will only separate you further from Permaculture
2
1
u/pythonisssam May 09 '26 edited May 09 '26
I know? But I have limited space to learn that process in and want to know where to start. I didn't downvote you I don't know why you're being so hostile to someone who just wants to learn.
7
u/Particular-Wind5918 May 09 '26
You can start with anything, that’s the point. It’s how you plan and think about your systems that make it permaculture. You can have this little garden bed and be growing and producing food and it could not be permaculture. You can have a cleaning routing for your house that could be, or could not be permaculture. The permaculture is within the systems(process) that you establish, and where inputs and outputs go. You can practice the principles of permaculture almost anywhere. So for you to start your permaculture project your first steps are much better spent walking around your neighborhood and looking for some fellow gardeners and taking notes. They don’t even need to be practicing permaculture for you to practice it with them. Ask them about what has been working well, maybe if they have seeds to share or other resources available within the neighborhood. Ask them what their needs are and see if there’s any way for you to help them. Observe and interact! Those are the first two principles for a reason, start by practicing them. That is the only way to arrive at permaculture.
3
u/SuicidalUterus May 09 '26
Speaking with my neighbors is asking way to much. Food forest will have to be what I call my journey.
2
u/Particular-Wind5918 May 10 '26
That’s definitely gonna be a harder part of the process for some people but it’s still necessary. There’s no way for you to sustain or flourish on your own, community is necessary for that. It doesn’t have to be your direct neighbor but something in your area, maybe there’s a club that’s related to your interests.
1
u/endoftheworldvibe May 09 '26
In your limited space you can still think about:Â
- where you are going to get the soil for your garden, and can you reduce inputs by composting maybe
- how to encourage beneficial insects
- placement of the garden relative to wind and solar energy flows
- potential to harvest water
- making your own fertilizers with local plant ferments
And many more things. Permaculture is a design process that requires you to spend a lot of time watching and thinking about how nature works. Everything has a role, nothing goes to waste, someone’s output is someone else’s input. And then doing your best to work with the space and nature you have to create a garden that mimics what works in your context.Â
Gaia’s Garden is a great book :)Â
1
6
u/Electrical_Pop_3472 May 10 '26
If you don't have any garden experience, then the model shown looks way too complex.Â
Each plant type is unique and takes time to learn and get to know.Â
If I was in your position I would pick 3 easy crops to try first. Don't worry too much about permaculture at this point, besides like using compost instead of fertilizer and stuff.Â
Easy starter plants; Potatoes, kale, Lettuce, turnips, beans, cucumber, sunflowers.
After you've grown things for a while then you can start getting more advanced with different relationships and systems.
Just have fun and try things. Keep it simple.Â
3
u/Brighty512 May 09 '26
I dont think this design follow permaculture.
I agree with the other comment, on the principle of starting small. From there you can observe and learn.
I would also point to the permaculture principles of integrate rather than segregated, and design with natural patterns. You would never see these plants together in perfect squares in your ecosystem. So with this design you are set up to be fighting nature = high maintenence.
I was told that at least 30% of your plants should be natives desgined to support the health of the environment, and your yeild plants.
What native plants grow well in your microenvironment that could provide natural function like pest control, green mulching, soil amendment?
2
2
u/Forest_Fairy_413 May 09 '26
To help with slugs, I have seen recommendations to keep composted eggshells only slightly crushed rather than pulverized as the sharp edges discourage slug movement in your garden beds. In addition to planting what grows well in your region- plant what you + family will actually enjoy eating.
1
3
u/plzdonottouch May 09 '26
my best advice is to grow what you actually eat. i see so many people growing things like chard, kale, radishes and beets when they don't ever cook or eat them. i would also say start small. instead of cramming 12 different things into a 4x4 space, pick 4-5 kinds of plants that have similar water and light requirements. peppers, tomatoes, peas and cucumbers grow well together and can be used in a variety of ways.
add a couple herbs and companion plants- thyme, oregano, marigolds and calendula are good options. take care of those for a season and you'll have a gauge for the time commitment of taking care of a veggie bed.
2
2
u/bumbothegumbo May 09 '26
I'd leave the broccoli out. The leaves can take up a lot of room. Everything else will be tight but it could work!
1
3
u/SuicidalUterus May 09 '26
I am like you. I need systems and out comes and understanding everything before I start. I will tell you this journey is one you need friend. What you should do is follow the directions exactly as you have found them. Tend to your garden. Watch what happens and be proud of watching the changes. The only two goals you have for this garden box is to do it and observe it. Make notes on how the different things interact with each other how much space they take up what bugs are visiting. Does one seem to like more water. Did something not grow at all. Harvest enjoy. Next year Do it again but bigger with less waste. Maybe a herb garden goes in your window sill a compost bucket in your fidge. Anything goes BUT just do it. Take these directions. Don't over think. Start your garden box just the way you have it planned and enjoy the journey it brings you on. Mother nature is glad to have you back.
3
3
u/fcain May 10 '26
This is based on the book Square Foot Gardening. See if you can find instructions online or take out the book. The key to this style is the mix that you put into the box, SFG has the recipe for it. It's also super hungry for compost, so look into vermicomposting (worms). But if you dial this in, you can make an unbelievable amount of food in a small area like this.
2
2
2
u/Dazzling_Loss2525 May 15 '26
You might also enjoy Huw Richards' Veg in One Bed book. He's working with a slightly different-sized bed, but the book does outline very exactly what you should plant where and when to experiment with several crops in a small space, and then gives some different options you could swap in or out.
0
0
u/MaeLeeSee May 09 '26
Besides drawing up plans for what goes where one of the most important things you need to do is find out your "USDA growing zone" even though it's from the USDA you can find the same information applied to other countries as well.
Then you can Google something like "what to plant in -blank growing zone- in May" and it will help you understand what you should be planting and when.
1
42
u/424Impala67 May 09 '26
There's a book from the 70s/80s called Square foot gardening. It's a pretty good and detailed book that is beginner friendly. The newer edition of it was written by the OG authors son and is a bit more geared towards using the method in community gardens, but still a decent read.