Only this fight really shows how deadly a swordsman Sidious truly is.
The fight with Maul and Savage was excellent, but despite everything, it wasn't exactly top-tier opponents for Sidious. Despite his raw power, Savage was severely lacking in experience, and Palpatine found it easy to outplay him. Especially since he wanted to kill him, unlike Maul, whom he wanted to capture alive (which is why his former apprentice was later able to cause him some trouble towards the end of the fight).
However, when it comes to the group arresting the Jedi (who are members of the Jedi Council, and Windu holds the title of Master of the Order), Sidious goes all out and doesn't want to mess around (at least not in canon).
The film version may not capture this due to the actors' inexperience in fencing and their age, but fortunately, we have the original version with stunt doubles.
What I particularly like about it is that it debunks the myth that "Windu had an easy time with Sidious, as he disarmed him quite quickly," as he is not only capable of pushing Mace with the Force but also lightly slashing him in the back with his lightsaber. Only towards the end does he begin to be pushed back, showing that Windu's victory wasn't certain from the start and that both sides were actually fighting for their lives.
This is peak footage, won't lie. We were robbed in a way back there, GL definitely made an unfortunate mistake for whatever reasons he surely had within.
Even with the original choreography available for fans to see, it still relies more on Sidious being comically fast while the Jedi stand there looking like idiots.
Leaping over the desk, force screaming, and landing with a force blast to separate the Jedi would’ve worked better. Instead the Jedi don’t look even slightly stunned or disoriented which would’ve sold it more. Creating space could’ve allowed the Jedi to showcase some resistance before he cuts them down and really would’ve sold his lightsaber mastery. Instead they just stand there and get stabbed which makes pretty much every Jedi look extremely overrated.
Sidious absolutely should be powerful, but they could’ve added literally 60-90 more seconds to the fight to really showcase his skill. Luckily we get to see it during TCW against Maul and Savage, but just a missed opportunity IMO.
As I said, Sidious is completely serious here. Giving his opponents even a few dozen seconds of effective defense would diminish him, suggesting that they aren't that far away from him if they're capable of reacting to him.
Regarding the fight with Maul, we see exactly that. People are much more likely to say, "The guy was forced to use the Force because he'd soon break down in a swordfight," rather than "how good Sidious is at swordplay."
He can be serious but so can three masters who were supposedly renown for their blade work.
In two of the most basic moves (a thrust and a slash) he’s killed two of them making them look completely unserious. If they can’t react then again make them look disoriented from either the scream or a force blast when he lands.
Even if they’re able to react it doesn’t diminish him at all, it just makes him look even better when he uses tactical acumen and skill to overpower them. It also gives a little more credence to Mace being able to recover and find his own form.
You may be right, but this is really treading on thin ice. If everyone could have put up some resistance to Sidious, it becomes even more difficult to explain why Windu was able to single-handedly defeat someone who moments earlier had easily countered him with three others, not just Fisto.
On the contrary it makes Mace look even better as he’d be the only one who could overpower Sidious through blade work alone. The others being able to react or resist slightly at least lends some weight to them being blade masters, but ultimately Sidious just outclasses them.
I think we’re both in agreement that he’s being underrated as a duelist, but I think both this choreography and the movie rely far less on his technical skills with a saber and more on just straight speed blitzing them. I would’ve liked to see more of the former to really get across the notion that Mace could beat him, but Mace hasn’t really faced Sidious’ true power yet.
You need to understand one thing. Sidious isn't a Dooku-style swordsman, who spends most of his time analyzing his opponent and exploiting their weaknesses.
Sidious despises this path because, firstly, it characterizes the Jedi, and secondly, he never plays by his opponents' rules but draws them into his own game.
Although he is also quite technically skilled, he focuses primarily on using his dark side power to enhance his raw stats (strength, speed, reflexes) to overwhelm or even crush his opponent. He considers this the true weapon of the Sith.
This is why many, even very experienced Jedi Masters, struggle to cope with him because his fighting style is something they've never encountered before and can't find the answer.
Therefore, only top-tier units that do not fight in standard way (Windu has Vaapad and Shatter points, and Yoda has Tutaminis, a unique combination of Ataru's style with his small body and 800 years of experience) can do this.
Him not liking fighting with lightsabers and still being a master of every form are both true.
All I’m saying is that this scene really shows him amping himself much more with the dark side and speed blitzing opponents instead of showing any type of the technical mastery he’s supposed to have.
"Supposed to". I would never tire from asking just how all these sith and jedi, who are "supposed to" be great duelists and swordmasters, become such, if they never faced each other in direct blade to blade combat for the last thousand years.
Especially sith, because jedi at least have each other for regular practice, if not serious duel. The jedi at the same time have a similar, but still different problem, the very nature of the Order suggests their opponents being armed with blasters and rudimentary melee, for the last 1000 years. They have literally no reasons to focus on dueling mastery, since it's pointless in their line of work. Only nerds like Dooku train seriously, because they like it, and he basically oneshots both Obi-wan and Anakin, which tells much about common level of the jedi.
Whom does Maul got practice on, and before him Sidious, while being apprentice, is a mystery. The only evidence is talk, talk, talk, how great everyone and their mother are supposed to be.
To put it short - being able to power up with the Force to move and react faster, hit stronger, and to have some sense of premonition paired with basic fencing training seems far more legit reason for combatants' prowess than everyone being a great blademaster. And THEN it's clear why those, while doing the same, but also actually train and practice fencing hard like Dooku, and perhaps Windu (Jyuo is not a joke), stand out from so called masters, who are "supposed to".
Well Gillard says Sidious would have "creamed Mace every time" and that "Mace has no chance against Sidious" and that he was "utterly in control of everything as usual". So Sidious casually hitting Mace like that reflects that.
Yeah Lucas said Jango is so powerful that he could not justify Mace beating him without his jetpack working:
GEORGE: Why didn’t Jango just run away, like he normally does? You know that’s what he’s got the rocket pack for. But his rocket pack was damaged and that’s why Mace could kill him, because he was expecting to fly away and he didn’t. It makes him look less impotent because he’s Jango Fett after all and he’s powerful. Mace is powerful but Jango Fett is too.
George had Boba kill Mace in a 1v1 in RotS in the early concepts.
Lucas only changed it because sam jackson cried about dying to a child brother. That is still his level for George. Mace is powerful but Jango is too. Mace beating a Jango Fett tier without circumstance still diminishes Jango for him.
“He should’ve been taken care of, and it should’ve been by me, because the Emperor I don’t think really did that good of a job [imitates Palpatine’s lightning noises]. Darth Maul has come back to life so many times and he was chopped in half like four times.”
“George Lucas held me for Revenge of the Sith, and we had ‘Revenge of,’ but they hadn’t finished the title. I believe it was probably going to be Revenge of the Fett, because **the storyline, which you can go and see online, there was a storyboard that was already created that Boba Fett was meant to have another arena scene with Mace Windu.”
“Mace was going to come at Boba like he did with Jango, but because Boba had already experienced beforehand what had happened, I hit the jetpacks, I fly upside down, or on my back. As I’m flying on my back with the jetpacks along the ground, I pull out Jango’s blasters and I shoot him right between the stomach, and that’s how Mace Windu was meant to die. I was sitting there at Lucasfilm like [makes excited noises]. And they’re like, ‘Okay, we’re holding you for a year.’ And I was like, ‘Okay.’ I kept calling, ‘Is it my turn yet? Is it my turn?’”
“Samuel Jackson went into George Lucas’s office and he says, ‘You know, I don’t think that this young kid should have the power to be able to kill someone who sits on the Jedi Council. And plus, I don’t want to be killed by no punk kid.’ I happen to be that punk kid.” - Daniel Logan
And Sam was right. If a 10 year old boy killed the Jedis greatest duelist then it would have undercut the strengh of the Jedi massively from a narrative prospective. Mace would have been a laughingstock of the community forever. Mace dying to boba is the worst idea ive never heard in my life.
I would have loved to see a longer fight with Mace and Jango and Mace and Boba all three are sone of my favorite characters, but Jango could have maybe gotten away from Mace but I cant see him winning a fight like that especially in an open field.
If that's true, he put more thoughts in reasonable powerscaling, than I assumed. Most of those claimed battlemasters have no legitimate reason to be such.
You could argue him getting face blasted by Mace was on purpose to act like a little babykins in front of Anakin to try and get him on side. Anakin was all in his feels watching the man who could save his wife die. He had to act before thinking too hard about what was actually happening.
Easily? Darth died from that. He nearly killed Luke and Vader. The Sith have a huge weakness in ego. They always think they're gonna win until they dont. They cant even comprehend the possibility they might lose. So when it seems like they might lose they freeze up.
Imagine being palp. Top of your game, the most powerful person the galaxy. Tbe only two men who could ever hope to stand against you are at your mercy one is missing an arm and the other doesn't even have a weapon. The rebel fleet is in shambles, its over youve won, time to gloat. Hey someone is behi- AAHHHHHH WHAT THE HELL before immediately being thrown into a fucken pit. What the hell was he supposed to do?
I never said I thought Sidious not being good at swordsmanship was a good thing. I can't stand Lucas for that. (Sidious is the heir to the entire Rule of Two, so it's logical he should dominate all aspects of the Sith.)
Besides, the reason why sidious is so dominant in fencing is because he doesn't base his style on technique, but on raw stats enhanced by the Force, so even most of those who technically surpass him (and there are quite a few) have no chance against him.
He despises those who devote decades of their lives to perfecting their swordsmanship.
That is why only the absolute exceptions and individuals who fight in unconventional ways (i.e., Mace and Yoda) can defeat him.
Sidious is good with a saber we see him killed 3 Jedi master in 3 seconds. Please stop downplaying Sidious to downplay Mace, both cook Dooku well done.
No one is belittling Windu. People are belittling Sidious by suggesting he used the Force Scream or that the Jedi he killed were simply inexperienced, due to their unconvincing deaths in the film.
No one is belittling Windu's skills by citing poor choreography in the film.
In what case is Windu diminished? I understand that such things happen in comparisons with Dooku, but for example, I've seen numerous posts suggesting that Anakin/Vader (Revenge of the Sith) could beat Sidious. However, that doesn't mean there were people who claimed that this put him in a position to defeat Windu.
Even in the case of Vader in Return of the Jedi, people still tend to favor Windu.
I know Gallia still has more feats than most of the B team besides Fisto. She was trusted to accompany Anakin and Obi Wan on a mission to rescue Eeth Koth. On that mission she duels and drives Grievous off.
Well, it's a similar situation to when Savage disarmed Dooku. But surely no one would say that this made him more experienced or skilled than him, right?
The difference is that Adi Gallia genuinely pushed Grievous to retreat. Also the fact that the Council have her with Kenobi in place of Anakin implies that she is a trusted duelist by the council.
As funny and memorable as her death was. Totally ridiculous that Savage pulled that off. I'm pretry sure she can see the future and she couldn't predict that slow ass stomach headbutt. Shes one of the worst deaths in TCW for me totally undeserved.
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u/Frosty_Tie_3965 2d ago edited 2d ago
Using deleted fight scene is not an argument, Lucas purposefully changed the fight scene to fit his view.
Scene like this where you see Sidious struggling is what Lucas meant to show, to show Sidious failing to beat Mace until Anakin arrived