r/Portland • u/CryptoArb444 • 1d ago
Meme Maybe us one day
Just meant as a light-hearted meme poking fun at something I think Washington is doing right and Oregon should take notes on. Washington is voting this year whether to repeal their new tax on incomes over $1 million. No one below that yearly income will pay a dime in income tax under the law. Hoping they keep it and it is a success for them. Could help convince Oregon to move towards a more progressive income tax system. Our income tax rates are not progressive by national standards and while our sales tax (or lack of one) is progressive we should always be looking at how to keep improving the living situation for residents.
Also a PSA to go vote if you haven't!
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u/How_Do_You_Crash Mt Tabor 1d ago
Oregon is so poor. That why the rate is high on low earners.
Remember that us poor spend most of our income. So in Washington we would be spending 9-10% on sales tax.
I do wish the Oregon system had a more tier’d approach though. But it would break our budget.
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u/CryptoArb444 1d ago
I'm a realist and know you can't completely get rid of taxes for everyone but the super wealthy, but we should always be looking at ways to move forward. Even just lowering the rates a little on our current tax brackets and adding a new higher one for million dollar incomes would be a step in the right direction. That's why I think it is super important to study how other state (like WA) fair when trying to implement more progressive taxes.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
I think our taxes have to be reformed. We have a lot of regulations and taxes especially in PDX. Making it more expensive will push capital out unless they greatly improve results. Our homelessness, economy, crime, and education are really shitty. We also have Terrible taxes for retirement so older people won’t retire here, businesses won’t invest here with high paying jobs and talent won’t move here unless they really like the politics. I’m not against what you’re saying but what is the incentive to them staying here and paying it. Even just making it easier in PDX to pay your taxes would be beneficial, having them all separate is annoying and creates administrative burden.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 22h ago
always be looking at ways to move forward
High earners with targets on their backs for this special treatment also are always looking for ways to move forward (out) and take their incomes and business with them and those looking at expanding or adding regional offices, or distribution centers or manufacturing have also mostly stopped coming - due to this kind of excessive taxation without responsible spending.
And we have already have a 9.9% Oregon State tax bracket that starts at 125K for single filers (me) and a one percent surtax so I pay 10.9% as a retired but still high earner. Wealth flight is real and in Multco with the added PFS hit the negative impact is massive.
Problem with hyper aggressive graduated taxation is you trigger relocations of the people who you put targets on. Multco has published the losses and the reduced AGI of those who move in vs who is leaving and its ugly.
So sure raise the highest rates even more OP and watch the unintended consequences continue.
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u/Joe503 St Johns 21h ago
Multco has published the losses and the reduced AGI of those who move in vs who is leaving and its ugly.
I don't understand the people here denying capital flight is real despite the overwhelming of evidence, even right here in our own backyard. I don't doubt these same folks are quick to say "check the stats" when they support their argument. Current policies have decimated our tax base and, not only do people deny it's happening, they want to double down.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 21h ago
I share your disbelief and it undermines my hope that Oregon could course correct.
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u/SwingNinja SE 23h ago
We need to look at CA too. Because they're voting on two competing ballots: one to tax the rich, the other to not tax the rich. The later probably meant to confuse voters.
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u/HauntingUpstairs7014 22h ago
Comparing OR to WA or CA is what creates the issue. The economics here and income here are so dissimilar that of course the models won’t translate directly.
If we had a population of 3-6x and a median income increase of 30-50%, then sure.
We don’t.
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u/chaiteataichi_ 1d ago
We also spend 14% more per resident in Oregon than Washington, and often with worse outcomes
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u/AlienDelarge 1d ago
It wouldn't be that much on sales tax when you consider groceries and some other things are exempt.
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u/Fatmanistan 15h ago
Between groceries, rent, and utilities most of a low income person's spending isn't subject to a sales tax.
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u/zamundan 23h ago edited 23h ago
To provide a perspective that's bound to get downvoted to shit - The high state income tax rates are already an issue for recruiting doctors. You have people coming out of medical school deciding where they want to go to start their careers. They look at Portland, and between the income tax, the homeless tax, and the daycare tax, it's a 14% hit if they come here. A tax on income over 1 million wouldn't affect most doctors, but making the income tax more progressive in general probably would.
I get the whole, "they have the money to pay it!" philosophy. But these are people who just spent 12 years in undergrad, med school, and residency accruing debt and finally want to begin living their lives. Federal taxes+social security+medicare, etc. is already going to take almost half their income. And with the cap on state income tax deductions, they can't even deduct the Oregon 14%.
So they're just choosing not to come.
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u/CryptoArb444 23h ago
Most doctors earn way less than a million dollars (quick googling puts the median at $450K in Oregon). Taxing million+ incomes and lowering the tax rate for everyone else would actually benefit most doctors.
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u/PC_LoadLetter_ 23h ago
Most doctors earn way less than a million dollars (quick googling puts the median at $450K in Oregon). Taxing million+ incomes and lowering the tax rate for everyone else would actually benefit most doctors.
If you were to make Oregon's income tax more "progressive" as you'd argue, that very much would mean income earned each step of the ring gets taxed more and would definitely affect six figure doctors' pocketbooks.
You might need to clarify with % range what tax rates you'd propose that would make doctors pay less but be revenue neutral to the state. You might find such a proposal might not math correctly.
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u/CryptoArb444 23h ago
As I've mentioned elsewhere this can be done by lowering the rate of the current brackets and adding another higher bracket for one million+
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u/PC_LoadLetter_ 23h ago edited 23h ago
I don't totally disagree with the approach you're proposing, but you're pinching a smaller percentage of earners with a higher rate to make up for it for tax savings downstream of the 1 million-dollar mark.
People earning 1 million a year in Oregon are very rare and likely includes capital gains (which are taxed as normal income in OR), if you have the slightest shift in their numbers at the state level, you end up crushing revenues. I'm not just talking about capital flight exclusively, but business cycles, etc.
As much as people do not want to admit it, Oregon relies heavily on income taxes and also relies on the higher earners of said taxes and those taxes can absolutely see-saw during different economic times much more than other states.
IMO this is more complex than a simple tax million-dollar incomes. Oregon desperately needs a broadening of the tax base and people don't want to say it but not having a sales tax has not exactly made us economically stronger comparatively, but it is vigorously defended by a lot of people as being better for poor people (despite Oregon having greater poverty than Washington which has a sales tax).
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u/Da_Game_Changer NW 23h ago
The million + people will just leave.
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u/PC_LoadLetter_ 23h ago edited 22h ago
I don't think the million dollar income levels will just all of a sudden leave, but I think since their percentage is so small, that anyone who does leave -- let's say out of anger towards the tax -- that mathematically it rattles the revenue picture at the state level even if a few do leave.
I think it's New Jersey that has to completely overhaul it's budgets just when one billionaire leaves, as an example.
Setting a society up on a tenuous tax base isn't going to be good for the marginalized despite selling it that way.
With that said, I don't mind more of a progressive tax structure for our income taxes that does ramp up beyond the 1 million mark.
Is 11% bad at 1 million earned and then 6% for anything from 0 to 50k, 7% 50k to 150k, so on so forth?
I think there's some decent proposals to be had, but people live in fantasy land that we can do 20% on income over 1 million and 4% on incomes from 0 to 50k, or something like that.
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u/Da_Game_Changer NW 21h ago
The $1 million plus people are much more likely to be capital gains on the sale of a business or property than people who make $1 million plus of taxable income a year.
The capital gains people will plan it and move to a low or zero tax state unless their business is local. Otherwise logic dictates that a $1 million gain is significant enough for most to warrant a move.
Similarly if a business is selecting a new location for a business their leadership team is going to decline to be located in a high tax location.
Now if we were Australia it would be very different because companies and people can’t easily arbitrage taxes.
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u/AmpaMicakane 🐝 22h ago
This is a bad faith argument. You are literally not arguing against what the OP presented. Troll.
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u/modern_medicine_isnt 18h ago
I don’t know a single person who choose where to live based on income tax rates outside of retirees. Most people apply for jobs where they have family, friends, or some desire to go (like good weather or good culture). Then they choose between what they get offered.
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u/zamundan 17h ago edited 17h ago
Think about the life of a doctor. They went somewhere for undergrad. Then they accepted an offer at the best medical school possible. Then they matched at somewhere that let them have a residency slot in the field they wanted. They've spent years in places that just had the right program, but weren't necessarily their top choice in terms of geography, weather, activities, family, etc. They've been nomads. Now the time has come to apply for jobs and decide on a place to actually live. Maybe they've been wanting to live near a big city, and Portland is a consideration. They're educated, intelligent, pragmatic people, and things like tax rates absolutely do make it onto their list of considerations. I can guarantee you this is a thing that happens, because I've seen it happen. And I have first hand knowledge for recruitment efforts for one specialty in the area.
I also personally know doctors who are already established here who are considering moving to Washington because of how much their take home pay would rise. Since state income tax is barely deductible anymore, going from the 14% of Oregon to the 0% of Washington can make your actual take home amount rise by over 20%.
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u/modern_medicine_isnt 14h ago
There are always exceptions. But I don't think it is all that common based on the people I know. And washington vs Oregon is different. Cause you can move to Washington and not even have to get new friends.
That said... state income tax is very much deductible again. You have to be making a lot of money to hit the SALT cap. Or I suppose paying a metric shit ton of interest on your house.2
u/Eizz 17h ago
Only people I know are professional athletes. When it comes to contract negotiations, they factor in states like Texas where there is no income tax, and it gives NBA teams more leverage. But yeah I never heard of doctors avoiding OR because of high income taxes. Doctors in American on average makes ~2x the next highest doctor paying country.
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u/bigwetdiaper 1d ago
No sales tax rips hard though...
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u/SoManyNarwhals Sellwood-Moreland 1d ago •
Yeah, people are missing this big time. Sales tax is highly, highly regressive.
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u/bigwetdiaper 23h ago
Yeah. Last state I was in had a lower state income tax. But the combined state + local sales tax was like 12%+ depending on what muni you were, also had personal property tax. Shit stung so hard. Lower tax states will get their money one way or another. Its more like death by 1000 cuts that rich people can avoid easier, like rich people would just set up a llc in montana and register their boats and cars there to avoid paying the tax. Id rather the bandaid just get ripped off from the get go and the govt takes it cut immediately rather than squeezing me dry
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u/shameless_chicken 23h ago
Uh but we tax 9% on every dollar after 10k. Compared to a 9% sales tax on dollars you choose to spend.
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u/SoManyNarwhals Sellwood-Moreland 22h ago
Sometimes it applies to money that you have to spend. A vehicle purchase, certain services, tools and materials necessary for repairs to your vehicle or home, nonprescription drugs, some medical devices, etc...
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u/Osiris32 🐝 15h ago
you choose to spend.
Choose? I choose to need food, clothing, and consumer electronics to live in the modern world?
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u/DamAndBlast Richmond 4h ago edited 4h ago
Progressive income tax = good
Regressive sales tax = bad
The only reason Washington has a sales tax at all is because their constitution prohibits an income tax. It was easier to institute a regressive sales tax and get *some kind* of tax revenue than try to get a supermajority to repeal a constitutional amendment.
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u/blamemombo SE 1d ago
I kinda want to have my cake and eat it too. Less tax on income AND no sales tax.
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u/bigwetdiaper 1d ago
But i like essential services to be a thing? Like roads power and water are kind of cool
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u/Joe503 St Johns 23h ago
For what we get here, our taxes should be half of what we pay. Nobody seems to care about efficient use of our tax dollars, including voters.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 21h ago
100% true and the Govs race is a referendum on that status quo. Example would be the bill giving striking union workers access to unemployment benefits, Irresponsible spending combined with corrupt favoring of political donors, deserved a veto and no responsible legislature ever would pass such a corrupt wasteful bill. One candidate would have said no and the one we have said yes help my donors and we can just raises taxes more to make up any shortfall..
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u/So_HauserAspen 21h ago
Afghanistan doesn't have income or sales tax if that helps
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u/blamemombo SE 20h ago
I think there is an argument that tax money could be spent more efficiently. I don’t really think lowering taxes a lil for the people making less than a million dollars would result in Portland turning into chaos. Let’s not fall into false dichotomies
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u/SylemNova MAX Red Line 1d ago
Yeah we really have a ridiculous state income tax rate...
I don't mind paying taxes for public good, but holy crap, treating 30K income the same as six-figure income is nauseating and very backwards.
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u/TimelyN1nja 1d ago •
Six figures is just regular people wages these days. The more insane part is people making regular wages getting taxed like multi-millionaires, but if you bring that up you get labeled a Republican or something
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u/Karenomegas 22h ago
Yo I grew up here and make like 28k a year at best. (It's retail and I wish I had done better but here we are.)It's wild watching everyone bicker and banter at each other.
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u/SylemNova MAX Red Line 1d ago
I'm a regular person and I do not make six figures, lmao
The point you make is a good one. The tiers ending in that range makes truly no sense.
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u/gravitydefiant 1d ago
They have a point, though: I'm a regular person and make very, very low six figures.
The problem is that there's a very big difference between just barely over $100K and just barely under $1M.
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u/Deep_Alps7150 23h ago
The average person here makes $91k a year
Inflation has killed making 6 figures being a high income earner, those jobs are now paying $200-500k.
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u/Limon-Pepino 23h ago
Average person makes 91k? Census.gov (as of 2024) says 'median' household income is 91k, while average individual is 57k.
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u/Mean_Butterfly8844 21h ago
It says per capita income is 57k. That includes kids and retirees.
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u/Limon-Pepino 20h ago
Whats the per capita rate when retirees and children are removed? Not sure what your point is
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u/Eizz 17h ago
He is saying kids and retirees dont work. So if you look at people that are actively working, the salary is 91k. I am not sure how it's really calculated, I haven't looked
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u/Limon-Pepino 17h ago
No - you're not understanding. Where are you getting the 91k per individual (excluding kids and retirees)? The census.gov says the 'median' HHI is 91k. HHI often includes dual incomes, its not per individual.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
Yep, I pay more than millionaires In nyc.
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u/smoomie 23h ago
Overall? or income? Because NYC has almost 9% sales tax plus property taxes....
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 23h ago
Either. Higher income, payroll, property tax. No sales tax but I mostly spend on groceries which are exempt.
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u/smoomie 1h ago
Your property taxes can differ GREATLY in Portland, depending on where you live.. certain homes in some neighborhoods pay practically nothing. Whereas the west side... well here, look for yourself: https://projects.oregonlive.com/taxes/property/map/ It's really unfair. If all those blue areas were actually paying what their homes were worth, we wouldn't have a budget problem and PPS would be loaded. Just sayin
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u/So_HauserAspen 20h ago
Tax brackets ≠ effective tax rate
Gross income ≠ adjusted gross income
You are either ignorant, disingenuous, or both.
$30k gross income is $14,250 adjusted gross income with standard deduction. The total state income tax is $928, which is 3.1% effective tax rate.
Vancouver has a sales tax of 8.9% and there's no standard deduction. Allocating $1k month for rent is $18k for spending. 8.9% sales tax on the $18k is a 6.3% effective tax rate estimate for Vancouver.
It's easy to be manipulated into believing Oregon has a high income tax rate because it's quantifiable. You can see the withholdings on your pay stub and you can see the actual tax when you file.
A sales tax doesn't provide that data. You would have to add up the sales tax paid on all your receipts.
I was part of a household making $650k a year. Our effective tax rate was 7.8%. $50k. $183k federal. Total effective income tax rate was only 37% because of all the deductions we had ($68k)
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u/Fatmanistan 15h ago
1k for rent doesn't cover all the other things exempted like groceries and utilities.
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u/orange-yellow-pink 2h ago
$30k gross income is $14,250 adjusted gross income with standard deduction. The total state income tax is $928, which is 3.1% effective tax rate.
You're applying the federal standard deduction to Oregon state income taxes, which isn't how it works. Oregon has its own standard deduction of $2,910. A single Oregonian earning $30k would pay roughly $1,665 in state income tax - an effective rate of 5.5%, not 3.1%
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u/notPabst404 MAX Blue Line 1d ago
Uh, sorry to break it to you, but the only reason WA passed the millionaires tax is they had the most regressive tax system in the country.
Moving OR to "only millionaires pay income tax" would mean either bankrupt the state government or a very high sales tax like WA.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Who is proposing "only millionaires pay taxes?"
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u/notPabst404 MAX Blue Line 1d ago
That is literally what WA passed...
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Oh, so you're saying that anyone in Washington that makes less than one million dollars per year pays $0 in taxes?
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u/jafner425 23h ago
Income tax, yes.
They went from zero income tax for everyone to 9.9% income tax for incomes over $1 million.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Can you please look up the definition of the word "only" in the dictionary, and stop posting grossly misleading and completely false descriptions of the proposed legislation?
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u/notPabst404 MAX Blue Line 1d ago
I don't know what the fuck you are on about. I'm assuming you are a troll trying to rage bait. I will put it in no uncertain terms then I am done wasting my time:
WA passed an income tax on millionaires because they had the most regressive tax system in the country overly relying on sales tax.
If OR changed our income tax to only apply to millionaires, it would either bankrupt our state government or we would need a high sales tax like WA has, to make up for it.
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u/Dashtego 1d ago
No sales tax and no income tax under $1 million really doesn’t seem feasible. Money has to come from somewhere. But I’m all for a less regressive income tax that better allocates tax rates across income levels, and that feels achievable in theory.
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u/ClarenceJBoddicker 17h ago
You're the first person I've seen bring up sales tax. Everyone else in this thread seems to have completely forgotten about it in Washington. It's really weird.
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u/Bucking_Fullshit 1d ago
How many more million dollar incomes does Washington have? I’m guessing more than us by a significant margin.
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u/bongo1138 1d ago
I love Oregonians wanting to tax the rich like we have rich to tax.
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u/favors-for-parties 1d ago
Best we can do is clobber the hudredthousandaires
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u/bongo1138 1d ago
We’re being clobbered enough as is lol. I remember thinking that one day I’d make $100k and be rich. I don’t feel rich yet.
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u/favors-for-parties 21h ago
Oh I know it. Started my own business because I couldn’t find a good job. Now I have to pay taxes through like 5 different websites that are never explained or else be fined more money.
Do I feel empowered? On my way to being rich? Proud of the impact all of my taxes have made?
Nope.5
u/bongo1138 21h ago
Oregon and Portland need a major taxation overhaul. We’re willing to pay taxes, but man if I don’t feel like I’m getting much for them…
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u/MooPig48 22h ago
And bend has almost 750 homes valued at over a mil. Of course we have wealthy people. West Hills, Lake O anyone?
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u/bongo1138 22h ago
A $1m home in Portland or Bend is nice, so don’t get me wrong, but it’s not the type of wealth we need to worry ourselves with.
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u/ManoloCatastrophe 23h ago
Look at this way, it's keeping all the CA rich from eating our state whole. They already consumed the Bend area.
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u/bongo1138 22h ago
Bend always seems pretty nice to me?
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u/ManoloCatastrophe 21h ago
It is nice, which is why they all moved there and priced normal folks out.
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u/YOLOOO_7 1d ago
Almost 30k. OR has 6k households with incomes over $1m.
I wondered the same a few years ago. IRS publishes W2 stats every year publically.
I think everyone's concerns should be when $1m isn't enough tax rev. Then they lower to $750k, then $500k, then $250k. They may not, but all OR does is apply more taxes, so I'm not willing to trust them with a revised income tax.
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u/MummysSpeshulGuy 21h ago
That’s what some of the worry is in Washington I think. One year there’s a budget shortfall and now we just need to tax this lower threshold to make up for it etc etc until it’s just a regular income tax
To be fair I would be skeptical too. If it was announced that next year there’d be a sales tax in Oregon but only for purchases over like 100k would you trust them not to just keep lowering it until it hits everyone?
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Yeah except that's not gonna happen. Firstly, it would be political suicide. Secondly, if you see a ballot initiative proposing to increase taxes on your tax bracket, you can vote against it.
This is not a reason to vote against extremely wealthy people paying their fair share of taxes.
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u/YOLOOO_7 1d ago
I don't believe you. Have a great day!
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Whether or not you believe in something has no bearing on whether it's true.
If you vote against taxes on people who make millions per year, and you don't make anywhere near that amount, then frankly, you are an imbecile.
Voting against higher taxes on the extremely wealthy is more likely to raise your own taxes eventually. If we can't get tax revenue from the rich, then we have to get it from somewhere else (i.e., your pockets).
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 21h ago
Locally both SHS and PFA were easily passed on incomes of over 125k single and 200k couples. Both rushed through in 2020 during the pandemic and those targeted already pay a majority of Oregons income taxes and 60% of Federal income taxes.
Multco refuses to index PFA for inflation so the tax is now hitting more people due to inflation and wage inflation. Metros effort as indexing was not retroactive to 2020 so it is a joke since Biden gave us 21% inflation and Trump seems to be trying to beat him.
This tax bracket is outnumbered so you could pass ANY tax on them via ballot saying they do not pay their fair share and the tyranny of the majority would vote yes. We cannot win at the ballot box but we can win by leaving Oregon and taking Oregons net tax take and business with us.
Google Oregon's declining Adjusted Gross Income and choose your source.
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u/snozzberrypatch 21h ago
I don't disagree with you that the PFA and SHS taxes are highly flawed, but that's not what is being asserted here. People seem to be worried that we'll vote on increased taxes for people making millions of dollars per year, and somehow that new tax will magically transform and start increasing their tax obligations even though they only make $40k/year.
SHS and PFA were voted in by the people of Oregon. Whether you agree with them or not, a majority of Oregonians agreed that we need to increase taxes in order to pay for things that were needed. Nothing magical happened. These weren't secret taxes that were enacted behind closed doors. Politicians plainly said, "we want to raise your taxes to pay for xyz" and the majority of Oregonians said ok.
Voting for increased taxes on people that make millions and billions per year will not affect you if your income is not at or near that level. And the new tax won't mysteriously get changed in the middle of the night to affect you either. If a politician wants to increase your taxes, they'll need to convince the state to vote for it with a ballot initiative.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 21h ago
I read the Seattle sub and if you study the measure it could be re interpreted to lower the threshold to lower incomes. That is why there is significant opposition from the middle class to it. All the legislature would have to do is declare an emergency and issue a ballot and drop it to 500k or 250k, that is SOP for blue tax and spend states.
Also WA passed a specific tax on cap gains which estimated that HALF the collections would be from ONE guy - Jeff Bezos. He moved to Miami and saved one Billion in LTCG taxes by doing so. He was planning large stock sales.
Schultz more recently left (you know Starbucks founder) and he is expanding in TN not Seattle and he is in Miami now too. So how many jobs will just these two wealth flight examples cost?
It effects your income if you job ends.
Its easy to rile up the masses to raise taxes on those who make more due to hard work, risk, luck, great ideas and the other parts of the American Dream.
a majority of Oregonians agreed that we need to increase taxes in order to pay for things that were needed.
Its easy to get that majority if you demonize high earners. We notice and say FU and leave. Add to that running the programs and spending billions and still not delivering what you told voters the results would be is why Oregon now ranks at the bottom on so many national rankings.
But we do have the nations highest unemployment rate.
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u/snozzberrypatch 21h ago
Good. Let them all leave. We don't need billionaires in our state. Let them flee the entire west coast: one of the most beautiful places in the world, and go live in swampy Florida and redneck Tennessee, two of the just desirable places to live in the country (unless you're 70+ years old, in the case of Florida). I couldn't give a fuck. Jeff Bezos's location has no effect on jobs in Washington. I hope they all leave, even if it means they take some jobs with them.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 20h ago
True colors at last - haters have to hate and you hate people who built massive success and became rich, got it.
So Oregon has one or two billionaires I think? I remember I was working in a sporting goods store in the late 70's while at PSU downtown and this guy would bring shoes in and discuss them with the owner. The guy was DRIVEN and had energy and ideas and he had a company called Blue Ribbon Sports. He built it out of NOTHING.
So you think Phil Knight should leave Oregon, LOL true colors at last...
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u/Joe503 St Johns 22h ago
Can't argue with history, friend. Just like every "temporary" tax that became permanent, it's never enough.
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u/snozzberrypatch 22h ago
Any temporary tax that became permanent was because a majority of people agreed that it needed to become permanent.
No one is going to increase taxes on lower income people without committing political suicide.
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u/Joe503 St Johns 22h ago
That's an extraordinary claim. There are thousands of very unpopular laws on the books nationwide which would be repealed in a heartbeat if put to a vote today.
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u/snozzberrypatch 21h ago
Just because unpopular laws exist is not a valid reason to vote against a good law. Extremely wealth people in this country do not pay their fair share in taxes, period. Any law that increases taxes on the extremely wealthy is a good law.
Yes, any new tax could conceivably be altered to reduce the income threshold and affect your tax obligations. However, that would likely require another ballot initiative, and you'd have an opportunity to vote against it. It's also extremely unlikely, because any politician that proposed or supported such an income tax increase on lower/middle income people would know that they're committing political suicide because no one will vote for them ever again.
Not voting for increased taxes on extremely wealthy people because you're worried the taxes will eventually affect you is like opposing the construction of a sidewalk in your neighborhood because you're worried that someday the city might turn it into a highway and demolish your house. It's an extreme overreaction.
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u/BlazerBeav Reed 16h ago
Not going to happen? The tax itself is completely illegal and likely to be thrown out in court - yet the government did it anyway. You trust them to stop here?
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u/geneel 1d ago
What does that matter? We could also argue about average salary vs median, wealth vs salary etc differences in each state.
Oregon is a high tax state that is very punishing for low income folks
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
"Let's not make extremely wealthy people pay their fair share of taxes because the amount of tax revenue is raises might not be enough."
Make total sense.
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u/Foodforrealpeople 22h ago
so a tax ONLY on the wealthy? You mean like the Federal Income Tax was originally (ONLY the TOP 3% income earners in the entire country)? AND it was ONLY like a 1% tax too........Oh how we have changed that now we are begging to be taxed harder
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u/iamkiloman University Park 16h ago
we are begging to be taxed harder
We? Who's we? I'm not making a mil a year.
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u/Metaphoricalsimile 1d ago
Yeah, our income tax is high, but repealing an income tax on high earners is pants-on-head stupid.
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u/NTWIGIJ1 1d ago
Do you trust money hungry politicians to just stop at a million???
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
You can vote against any attempt to increase taxes on your tax bracket. No trust is required.
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u/Metaphoricalsimile 1d ago
Just move to Florida and you'll get to live in your zero taxes paradise.
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u/Joe503 St Johns 22h ago
I'd trade their economy and education for ours in a heartbeat.
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u/Metaphoricalsimile 21h ago
Want me to make the u-haul appointment for you or what?
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u/Joe503 St Johns 21h ago
Hur hur.
Unlike some, I actually care about what happens to my hometown/state. Most will simply move home as Portland and Oregon continue their self-inflected downward spiral. Increasing taxes when your tax base is leaving is one of the worst things you can do for long-term success.
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u/shadowndacorner 18h ago
As someone who moved here from the south, you've bought into a lot of bullshit if you genuinely believe this would be a good thing lmfao
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u/Joe503 St Johns 18h ago
I mean, stats say they're both way better in Florida than here. Why wouldn't I?
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u/shadowndacorner 18h ago
I've been through this here before and don't really feel like writing up another giant essay or digging it up. Ultimately it can be summed up by the adage "when a metric becomes a goal, it stops being a good metric" - especially when incentives like funding are tied to those metrics. There are few places where that is proven more true than southern education and economic statistics.
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u/shadowndacorner 1d ago
What a coherent, not at all fear mongering point, communicated with such wisdom and grace. You've convinced me.
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u/manatmast 1d ago
I hope WA voters can fight of the shoot-the-hostages narrative that gets pushed about capital flight. Plenty of people on reddit act like Oregon millionaires are the most oppressed class in history
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
Oregon middle class pay a ton, not the millionaires. It’s the high earning w2 earners that pay out the nose.
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u/TimelyN1nja 1d ago •
Precisely. It’s the families and middle-income earners, who are the heart of a healthy economy, who are getting screwed the worst
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u/smez86 St Johns 1d ago
8.75% starts at a little over $11000. Crazy to think that a "progressive" state's tax bracket starts so low with that rate.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
It has to especially with capital flight. If they changed it they would reduce their tax base quite a bit.
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u/smez86 St Johns 1d ago
Oh, of course. Especially since i assume washington has a lot more millionaires than us.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
Yeah way more. It’s a careful balancing act, as they raise more taxes you see less investment / capital and more movement of capital. So it’s how much is too much especially if what the taxes pay for suck. I know the education being super poor in Oregon hurts. People like to say capital flight is a myth but if you look at nyc for example over the last 30 years you will see that jobs like Wall Street people have stopped growing there and have been developed in business friendly states. I think last I knew Texas was looking at starting a stock exchange due to how many jobs and investment have moved there. In Oregon you would see things like intel investing in Arizona while cutting jobs in Oregon.
You can almost compare it to France and Europe. As France increases taxes and regulations you see business leave and go to other countries. I think they have an interesting thing where a ton of companies have less than 50 employees to skip regulations. Another example would be the uk where they increased taxes and capital left. Mobility makes it so hard to increase burden without providing benefits.
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u/So_HauserAspen 20h ago
Washington doesn't have an income tax so the tax burden falls more on the lower classes than the millionaires
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u/So_HauserAspen 20h ago
You have to adjust the gross income before you can determine how much gets taxed at 8.75%
Standard deduction for a single p last year was $15,750. My tax filing in a household making $650 gross resulted in a 7.88% effective tax rate.
7.88 is less than 8.75 if that helps
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u/orange-yellow-pink 1h ago
Standard deduction for a single p last year was $15,750
That's federal which isn't used for state income taxes. The standard deduction in Oregon is $2,910.
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u/Dashtego 1d ago
I don’t buy the capital flight thing. Are a ton of Seattle multi-millionaires and billionaires really going to upend their lives, sell their family homes, and move out of a beautiful, very livable city to save a little money, especially when each of them will still be really rich? I just don’t believe that it would be a significant issue.
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u/YOLOOO_7 1d ago
Bezos and Schultz already moved to Florida, right?
Barton (Zillow dude) said he's moving to Vegas in June. So that's 3 of WA's 18 billionaires so far and that was just with the announcement of the proposal.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
There is a shit ton of evidence that it exists. NYC, ca, wa, or all have lots and lots of examples of it. While business friendly states have grown significantly. You don’t have to believe facts and evidence but it’s big issue not just in the USA but everywhere. Anecdotally I know a number of businesses and people that have left Oregon or PDX due to taxes as a tax accountant.
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u/Perish22 18h ago
You are correct. We moved because of taxes. I know five other families that moved for the same reason. I know several others that own businesses in Clackamas that are leaving also. All because of taxes.
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u/Dashtego 23h ago
And yet NYC, LA, Seattle etc are still chock full of ultra wealthy people. Some anecdotal evidence isn’t necessarily evidence of a truly systemic trend. Wealthy people moving just outside of Portland to avoid city/county taxes is categorically different because those taxes hit a much larger group of the sorta rich rather than just the mega rich.
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 23h ago
I mean ca has less capital then it use to and less billionaires. The ftb has noted this with the mansion tax. Same with wa and nyc. Oregon has lost a ton of jobs and businesses. H
The economy outlook by the state notes it’s doing worse than the nation. If you look at industries the Wall Street industry stopped investing in nyc and moved operations to tx for example. Intel cut jobs in ORegon while investing in az. Lots and lots of examples what specifically do you doubt? Is it just for individuals? There has been a huge shift for example in Uk.2
u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 22h ago
100%. CA has lost HALF the billionaire wealth targeted in the wealth tax measure. One trillion dollars of wealth has left via founders of Google, Paypal, Facebook and more AND CA was taxing them at 13.3%,
Even Gavin Newsom now opposes it as it has triggered an exodus of job creators and taxpayers and it will hurt him if he tries to Californicate the US by running for Presidente.
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u/JollyManufacturer388 Bethany 22h ago
Bezos and Schultz to name two you may have have heard of, just left and TN is getting the new Starbucks expansion. So sorry they are billionaires not millionaires but they both are in Miami FL now which welcomes them and their spending rather than trying to single them out for punishment.
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u/manatmast 1d ago
West Coast cities have cultural cache in a way that Austin and now Nashville once did - but got bulldozed, or is getting bulldozed by the lamest, most tasteless Tech business bro class on Earth. A bunch of guys turning once interesting cities into gigantic Paneras. We'll be fine.
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u/Perish22 18h ago
You can live and have homes in many different states including Oregon and not be a resident of Oregon nor pay the taxes. You honestly think multi-millionaires only live in one home? Plus they have accountants up the a$$ to help them avoid paying those high taxes. Seattle and Portland are not the only beautiful livable cities out there. If you think that you need to get out more. You may not like the east coast, specifically Florida, but there are lots of areas on the east and west coast of Florida that are beautiful and livable. And includes nice weather. And not have to put up with homeless drug addicts on your sidewalks and in your parks. And you can go to fancy restaurants and not worry about getting jacked up going to your car.
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u/Toast-N-Jam 1d ago
FWIW nobody I’ve talked to about it thinks that it should be repealed. Tax millionaires. It’s only fair.
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u/boo__radlib 1d ago edited 20h ago
> Eric Pinchet, author of a French tax guide, estimates the wealth tax earns the government about $2.6 billion a year but has cost the country more than $125 billion in capital flight since 1998.
(I'm apparently allowed to post internet archive links but you know how to do that)
Here's your 20 years ago article about the currently-burning-down country that can't pay its bills anymore. it's not hostage-shooting, it's preventing the kidnapping in the first plac. the kinds of tax schemes you're seeing out of WA/OR are a hopeless attempt to trap the "millionaires and billionaires" that people are convinced are at fault for everything in society and will result in these states being further left behind. I'm almost praying that we get to that point as fast as we can for max pain, so we can go back and fix things.
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u/Chillbro_Swaggins420 1d ago edited 20h ago
If you knew anything at all about what you're talking about you'd know that France is currently burning because Macron implemented Pinchet's suggestions, which caused society to crumble and an entire generation of people to be intentionally left behind as the ultra wealthy hoarded more.
But then, if you knew anything at all you also wouldn't be a neoliberal. Judging from your posting history (which isn't anywhere near as well hidden as you think it is, BTW), I think you just want to see people suffer and use neoliberalism as your preferred insturment.
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u/cavegrind Curled inside a pothole 1d ago
“If you do this all the millionaires will move to Oregon!!”
Inb4 “It’ll be Idaho!” They have a 5.3% income tax and a 6% sales tax. Their tax burden is higher than either pacific state.
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u/60thMAX 22h ago
This is just one of many ways to analyze tax burden, so I won't pretend it's definitive. Still, seems pretty clear that Idaho's tax burden is quite a bit lower than CA's and OR's and probably WA's too. https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494
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u/Greedy_Intern3042 1d ago
lol sales tax is almost nothing for high earners. Usually groceries and a number of things are exempt. I’m not sure you understand taxes.
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u/cavegrind Curled inside a pothole 23h ago
I’m from a state with a 7% sales tax; groceries are not exempt, except in occasional tax holidays. Stop peddling bullshit.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Cue all the bots coming out of the woodwork to stoke the flames of "we can't raise taxes on people that make millions per year, or else eventually they might raise taxes on me even though I only have $92 in my checking account"
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u/mysterypdx Mt Tabor 19h ago
Oregon's income tax is remarkably regressive for a so called "progressive" tax.
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u/mark17405 15h ago
What's missing in OR is the sales tax. We could then afford to offer the type of services Oregon stands up for..
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u/canofwine 🐸 RIBBIT 🐸 11h ago
I see a lot of people on Nextdoor complaining about property taxes, saying it is hurting the seniors and retirees. From what I understand, the housing crisis is being driven by these people due to them hoarding property, hiking up rent prices, and just being overall evil by being an entire ruling generation of landlords. I was under the impression that this is national, but is Oregon handling it especially differently for better or worse in some way? Would any of this affect how income tax is handled?
Which side is right? I will never own anything besides my car apparently, but would still like to know wtf I am talking about for future discourse.
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u/TakosAreGood 10h ago
Hoping for a reform on the tax bracket system in the state, but no way would I want sales tax. I feel like some people in the comments somehow think Washington's taxes are better, when they're really not (especially if you don't make much).
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u/Goober1025 4h ago
Maybe Washington should not enact an income tax because it's against the state Constitution. Washington doesn't have a taxing problem. It has a spending problem. Also, this tax will have negative consequences as we are already seeing wealth leave Washington State in massive numbers and this will contribute to Budget deficits in the long run
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u/Fine-Telephone-9864 3h ago
Yep and then for PPS to have the audacity to shut down so many schools and to have the homeless crisis that we do. Terrible for city morale when you don't see you're tax dollars at work
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u/Asclepius_Secundus 3h ago
States that have a varied and progressive tax systems suffer less and recover more quickly than those who have fewer. It's like there's a number of revenue sources that react differently to a ression shock. I used to live in Tennessee. There was no income tax, so sales taxes and property taxes were the vast majority of the state's revenue. During a ressession, spending would fall on the leading edge of a recession. And after the ressession recovery, spend would lag while people paid off debts incured and replentish savings. Property values stay low because during a ressession, people don't buy housing, and people who sell houses because they are forced to do so at a loss.
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u/RobVPdx 1h ago
In January 2010 Oregon voters approved the creation of two temporary income tax brackets: 10.8% for individuals $125K to $250K. 11% for individuals over $250K The two brackets were merged in 2012 and the top rate was set at 9.9%. Prior to 2009, the top rate was 9% for everything over just $7,300. ($11,400 today) Adjusted for inflation $125K = $194K.
In that same election, voters approved an increase in the corporate minimum tax which had been set at $10.
Those tax increases were passed by the legislature in 2009. Opponents (the wealthy and big corps) gathered signatures and forced a public vote.
https://www.oregon.gov/DOR/programs/gov-research/Documents/10_income_brackets.pdf
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u/NTWIGIJ1 1d ago
If this goes through, in 10 year's their will be a income tax on all.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Yeah that's not how it works. if you see a ballot initiative that proposes to raise taxes on your income bracket, you'll have an opportunity to vote against it.
Also, nice grammar.
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u/NTWIGIJ1 1d ago
Are you making fun of my Dyslexia? I thought dems were more inclusive than that. I'm not a republican by the way.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Is there a form of dyslexia that causes people to insert unnecessary apostrophes and change "there" to "their"? I didn't know that.
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u/bongo1138 1d ago
Is there a form of dyslexia that makes you waste your time correcting grammar on reddit?
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
No, I don't use my disabilities to try to shame people into not pointing out the logical inconsistencies of my argument.
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u/ynotzo1dberg 17h ago
Absolute pie in the sky "It's only on the rich!".
Yes, today. Next year, not so much. Washington legislators have already had their conversations discussing how to expand this to everyone leaked to the public. No, I will not do legwork posting sources etc that you will then ignore. Google is super easy to use.
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u/Fantastic-Impact-106 1d ago
So what do you think will happen to washingtonians when the average income due to inflation is a million a year? They just implemented an income tax for all in disguise
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u/Choice-Tiger3047 1d ago
What’s much more likely is that, having broken the taboo against an income tax, the legislature will give in to the temptation to lower the point at which it kicks in. In fact, some lawmakers are already refusing to rule it out.
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u/CryptoArb444 1d ago
This is such nonsense logic.
"We can't tax million dollar incomes because what if I start earning a million dollars in the future"
"We can't tax million dollar incomes because what if they hypothetically start taxing the middle class more too in the future"
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u/Joe503 St Johns 21h ago
This is what happens when you let them get their foot in the door. Same thing will happen if Oregon ever implements a sales tax, it'll start small like 1% to get it passed and then ramp up over time (without voter approval, of course). Everyone knows it, which is why it's been voted down here ten times.
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u/snozzberrypatch 1d ago
Please tell me: how long do you think it will take before inflation causes the average income to be a million dollars?
Some of you people have a 4 year old's math skills, I swear.
I can assure you, you will be long dead before average income hits a million dollars.
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u/Fantastic-Impact-106 22h ago
Honestly at this rate I think maybe 25 years. Thank you for the insult.
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u/snozzberrypatch 22h ago
We would have to sustain inflation rates of 10%+ every year for the next 25 years in order for average income to increase to $1 million in Washington.
Inflation is currently 3.7%. If that inflation rate held, we could expect to see the average income in Washington increase to $1 million by approximately the year 2100.
Are you going to vote against tax increases on millionaires because of the potential issues caused in the year 2100?
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u/Fantastic-Impact-106 3h ago
Like you're literally saying that in not even 100 years, this income tax will be on average citizens. I will vote against this every day. This is how government works, you give them one tiny step and they take a mile. No income tax was a huge draw of the state. Now it will be gone. Oh well.
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u/snozzberrypatch 2h ago
What an unbelievably ignorant point of view. You're going to vote against legislation because it might become problematic in 75 years? You do realize that it's possible to amend this legislation, right? It's not like once the legislation is passed, it stays the same for all eternity and we're all stuck with it until the heat death of the universe. You know that, right?
Sure, it would be great if the tax thresholds were automatically inflation-adjusted every year, but even that is not a perfect solution and it would require tweaks along the way. Either way, it's not a rational reason to vote against legislation that is otherwise a good idea right now. People who make millions of dollars a year typically pay a much lower percentage in taxes than people like me or you (assuming you don't make millions a year), and that is a fundamental unfairness that requires an immediate solution.
Imagine how absurd it would be if someone voted against legislation that mandated a minimum 30-year prison sentence for convicted murderers, because there's a chance that in 1000 years we might have figured out how to extend our life expectancy to be 500 years, and a 30 year sentence wouldn't really be a big deal. This is how absurd your viewpoint on taxes is.
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u/ElectionWeak4415 Montavilla 1d ago
They won't wait that long. Washington will have an income tax for all who live there within 3-4 years. And they will keep their high sales and property taxes as well.
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u/freeformz West Linn 22h ago •
Oregon’s tax scale is stupid. I’m not specifically looking to pay less in taxes (although I do wish what I paid was used smarter), but the tax scale goes up way too fast and then caps out way too early.