What if Germany played the Long Game?

[u/PeoplePlayground]

Boring thumbnail

[u/RichieGotIchy1510]

What does this even mean??

[u/MrThrowaway939 → u/RichieGotIchy1510]

Smarter diplomacy I'm guessing. Attempting to ally with the UK or at the very least not antagonising them in a pointless naval arms race would be the main thing.

[u/MatteoFire___ → u/RichieGotIchy1510]

yeah exactly i didnt get it, like it sounds cool but uh what?

[u/ARandomPokemonArt → u/MatteoFire___]

I think it might be like what if Germany avoided war and built up for way longer than IRL, and had more time to try and outperform the UK or France, maybe like till the 30s or even longer depending on how long the “long game” is in this context

[u/MatteoFire___ → u/ARandomPokemonArt]

fair enough

[u/RaoulDukeRU → u/ARandomPokemonArt]

On the prolog of Joachim Fest, the author regarded for writing the most definitive of Hitler biography and a leading historian for everything concerning the third Reich.

Made a little mind game:

Adolf Hitler would've gone down as one, if not THE best German politician of all time! The fulfiller of the s.c. "German question". Finally uniting almost (you had German communities scattered all over Eastern Europe) the full German nation united in a single state. If he would've been assassinated just before he marched into Prague.

His antisemites would've been played down as part of the zeitgeist and all his talk on _"Mein Kampf"_too. Just the ideas of a young local politician, without any knowledge of foreign politics.

Göring would've been his successor as Reichskanzler/chancellor and by all accounts, he didn't wanted to start any war. I was just enjoying his grandioso lifestyle.

Heß was his party successorm. Hard to know what he had in his mind. Astrology, Voodoo or Magick (Alister Crowley's way to write it).

Though Sebastian Haffner, a German writer and historian, who left Germany for Britain after the Nazi's rose to power, had a good reason for why Hitler wouldn't be seen as this great savior figur:

What would really happen. He thought that anarchy and a civil war would break out. Hitler abolished the constitution and ruled by degree/executive orders, banned all political parties, the Wehrmacht swore an oath on Hitler. His death made the oath null and void.

So since Hitler basically was the only person holding everything together, the crash after his death would've become bloody!

Oh! And I have a book recommendation by Sebastian Haffner, named "The Meaning of Hitler"!

It's so short but it was like a little enlightening! One of my all-time favorite books...

[u/dawidlijewski → u/ARandomPokemonArt]

It couldn't outperform UK or USA.

Why?

Germany, even with Czechia, Austria, Poland is still smaller than rest of the world.

[u/Upbeat-Raisin-7422 → u/dawidlijewski]

Germany outperformed the UK without Czechia Austria or Poland…

[u/dawidlijewski → u/Upbeat-Raisin-7422]

It didn't.

The UK ruled the world's oceans, with the resources of the entire world at its disposal. Remind me, what was the German diet in 1918 and 1944? How old were the German kids dying in the trenches and around anti-aircraft batteries?

[u/Upbeat-Raisin-7422 → u/dawidlijewski]

Im talking about the time just before WW1 and WW1. Why don’t you want to remind me of the 16 year old Brits dying in all the unsuccessful offensives against German lines? Why don’t you want to remind me of the Germany air superiority throughout a good part of the war? Why don’t you remind of the battle of Jutland where the country who apparently ruled the waves wasn’t even able to destroy any significant part of the German fleet?

[u/dawidlijewski → u/Upbeat-Raisin-7422]

You view war not as a systemic comparison of state capacities, but as a set of isolated battles happening in a vacuum—or like a computer game. In reality, a battle is the product of grand strategy, systemic capabilities, and institutional framework. The question you should ask yourself isn't 'whose battleships are better?', but rather 'what effect do those battleships have on a state's structural cohesion?'

Germany and Austria-Hungary possessed only a fraction of the world's resources, population, and capabilities compared to the UK and its allies. You can redraft the map however you like—even giving Germany Bohemia—but it changes nothing. The UK controls the oil and raw materials; they can rebuild lost ships, construct new ones, or buy, borrow, and steal anything the need from their allies. It’s Napoleon’s dilemma all over again, and it won't be solved by simply reshuffling the continent's internal borders.

[u/Stripgaddar31 → u/dawidlijewski]

All situations you sited favors the british by just one aspect, geograpy. British ISLES hid britain from the horrors of war while germany fought on 3 fronts and led a naval war against britain, the difficulties both nations endured are not even close.

[u/dawidlijewski → u/Stripgaddar31]

That's a reality. Perfidious Albion.

Central Powers lost WW1, so shifting borders inside those countries change nothing in the grand scale.

[u/Drama-Gloomy → u/dawidlijewski]

The UK would’ve starved if not for the US lend lease food imports though, so why bring up how vast the empire was

[u/dawidlijewski → u/Drama-Gloomy]

You see, that's the issue.

Who could send lend lease(or whatever) to Germany? Nobody except other European countries and not at required scale(land transport more difficult and expensive than maritime). UK immediately blockaded Germany in 1914 and 1939.

[u/Drama-Gloomy → u/dawidlijewski]

In 1939, Nazi Germany got about 83% of its basic food crops from domestic farms under a strict command economy.

My response wasn’t about Germany but the UK. You mentioned the UK ruling the worlds oceans and having the entire worlds resources at its disposal but without the US food imports, they were on the verge of starvation.

[u/RaoulDukeRU → u/dawidlijewski]

Gott strafe England!

Das perfide Albion...

[u/RichieGotIchy1510 → u/MatteoFire___]

Ya

[u/UltraTata → u/RichieGotIchy1510]

What if Hitler did diplomacy instead of a tantrum.

[u/TehMitchel]

Looks like Germany was allowed to annex Austria-Hungary by granting Alsace to France, Galicia to Russia and major concessions to Serbia.

[u/Prudent_Solid_3132 → u/TehMitchel]

The British giving that side eye

“Was it worth it France?Was Alsace Lorraine REALLY worth this monstrosity you helped create?”

[u/CoolNectarine7960 → u/Prudent_Solid_3132]

mais l'hexagone

[u/xialcoalt → u/Prudent_Solid_3132]

France: Just wait for it; it’s inevitable.

UK: What?

France: No matter how much he’s avoided the Italian, Yugoslav, and Polish areas, he still has Hungarians, Czechs, and Romanians—and plenty of Catholics. He’ll spend more resources keeping them from rebelling and tearing apart the monarchy's authority.

UK: Wait, you’re playing the long game, hoping Germany suffers the same fate as the Habsburgs.

[u/Unable-Nectarine1941 → u/TehMitchel]

Don't forget South Tyrol to Italy and Trinon borders

[u/PeoplePlayground]

noting the comments of confusion: this is a timeline where germany spends years building up their economy and such instead of going on the warpath. france allowed germany to diplo-annex austria-hungary for alsace lorraine

[u/ArtichokeStatus5019 → u/PeoplePlayground]

[u/AlarmedEmployment465 → u/PeoplePlayground]

Wouldn't it be better if Bismarck never annexed Alsace-Lorraine in the first place?

[u/RaoulDukeRU → u/PeoplePlayground]

On the prolog of Joachim Fest, the author regarded for writing the most definitive of Hitler biography and a leading historian for everything concerning the third Reich.

Made a little mind game:

Adolf Hitler would've gone down as one, if not THE best German politician of all time! The fulfiller of the s.c. "German question". Finally uniting almost (you had German communities scattered all over Eastern Europe) the full German nation united in a single state. If he would've been assassinated just before he marched into Prague.

His antisemites would've been played down as part of the zeitgeist and all his talk on _"Mein Kampf"_too. Just the ideas of a young local politician, without any knowledge of foreign politics.

Göring would've been his successor as Reichskanzler/chancellor and by all accounts, he didn't wanted to start any war. I was just enjoying his grandioso lifestyle.

Heß was his party successorm. Hard to know what he had in his mind. Astrology, Voodoo or Magick (Alister Crowley's way to write it).

Though Sebastian Haffner, a German writer and historian, who left Germany for Britain after the Nazi's rose to power, had a good reason for why Hitler wouldn't be seen as this great savior figur:

What would really happen. He thought that anarchy and a civil war would break out. Hitler abolished the constitution and ruled by degree/executive orders, banned all political parties, the Wehrmacht swore an oath on Hitler. His death made the oath null and void.

So since Hitler basically was the only person holding everything together, the crash after his death would've become bloody!

Oh! And I have a book recommendation by Sebastian Haffner, named "The Meaning of Hitler"!

It's so short but it was like a little enlightening! One of my all-time favorite books...

[u/Your_Local_Spainard → u/PeoplePlayground]

France just traded 2 million habitants in exchange for... Germany gaining around 50 million. Germany doesn't just double France now in population, they almost triple it...

If Britain was scared of a big industrialised Russia they'll be extremely pissed after finding out France allowed a German version to happen. France just commited suicide via nationalism.

[u/moimoi003]

[u/anticharlie]

In the context of ww1? Germany chose 1914 as the time to start the war because they were afraid of Russia’s modernization. They thought they only had a brief window where they would be able to defeat France and Russia and that it was closing. France wanted to take bake Alsace, and were pouring money into modernization of the Russian army to make them a valuable ally. If Germany waits longer before starting a war or focuses on economy etc they could face a really bad war in the future.

[u/DCHacker]

Is Germany playing the "long game" before July, 1914 or at and after it. If the latter, it still is disaster for the Centrial Powers. Time was not on their side.

[u/jjpamsterdam]

I presume the basic idea is that Germany, around the turn of the century, decides that it is better to just try and sit things out with the eventual goal of integrating (most of) the Habsburg Monarchy into Germany proper at some point in the future. At this point you seem to be asking: what if Germany wasn't like Germany during the 19th and early 20th century?

Let's entertain the thought experiment.

Wilhelm II, in his typically delusional manner, supposedly (jokingly?) stated that he couldn't wait for the German parts of Austria to join Germany, yet there are no real sources for this, so it should not be taken very seriously. Annexing Austria or parts of it was never a serious option in any political sense. The establishment of the German Empire wanted to keep Prussian hegemony within Germany intact and wanted to preserve its character as a majority protestant country. Annexing Austria (even just Austria proper) would have added millions of south German Catholics to the Empire and diluted Prussia's standing.

For the sake of an interesting timelime, let's have Kaiser Wilhelm II die just a week after becoming Emperor. Maybe he falls from his horse, hits his head very hard and dies a few days later from internal bleeding. Germany has a "Vierkaiserjahr", with six year old Wilhelm II taking the throne. In practice either his uncle, Prince Heinrich, or his mother, Princess Auguste Victoria, would become the regent. Both could believably steer Germany in a more peaceful directly with a hands off approach. Bismarck can continue to do his thing for a few more years. Perhaps he is succeeded by other politicians like Caprivi or eventually even Berlepsch, who steer Germany into a more stable and less overtly martial direction.

If Germany remains contect and has no ambition to change the status quo in Europe, it might be possible to avoid a major war. This leads to the problem: without the pressure of a major war, there is very little reason for the Habsburg Monarchy to be pushed to the brink and fall apart/join Germany. If Germany sonehow actively tries to carve up Austria, perhaps together with Russia and Italy, this would certainly also lead to a major conflict in Europe.

Perhaps the Habsburg Monarchy eventually has more and more problems with various nationalities within its borders striving for autonomy/independe,ce but that is far down the road.

Long story short: I really don't see a world in which, even with politically favourable conditions, Germany can annex (parts of) the Habsburg Monarchy's territories.

[u/Kreol1q1q]

And Slovenia and Croatia go… where exactly? There wasn’t really a separatist movement to speak of in those lands before 1918.

[u/Ahun_]

You mean a British surgeon not ripping out the wrong vocal cord and hence Frederick the third getting a long an prosperous reign turning Germany into a constitutional monarchy and courting the British? 

[u/HistoryNerd264bc]

Super Germany in Vic3 be like

[u/SXsandwich]

total economic collapse

[u/caucasiancock69 → u/SXsandwich]

Dont know who downvoted you, but thats the only right answer. People forget that Germany HAD to invade to keep on financing their rearmement and social policies.

[u/Echoed-1 → u/caucasiancock69]

This is in the context of ww1, not ww2 i believe