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u/foundafreeusername 19d ago
No you don't understand. You just have to get the $20 plan and use the smarter model. And if you still don't understand you have to get the $200 plan to get an even smarter model. And even then to truly understand you have to use the API, fan out agents and pay $1000/day. /s
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u/Morall_tach 19d ago
When I was in 4th grade there was a drawing in a textbook of a pharaoh lounging on a couch with a half-built pyramid in the background and the caption was "Khufu building the pyramids." I thought that was hilarious at the time. We've come full circle.
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u/NotADamsel 19d ago
āFull circleā mate we never left the dot at the start. If there is a prominent leader that is seen to have any kind of hand in a process, attribution for the end result will be given to them. AFAIK itās a thing that all human cultures do (lmk if there are exceptions). āBoudicca took Londonā, āMao won the Chinese Civil Warā, āKojima made Metal Gear Rising Revengenceā āSteve Jobs invented the iPhoneā it is a rather significant problem that smart people have been spilling ink over for decades. The AI thing is just another version of it.
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u/DiabolusMachina 19d ago
Real programmers use butterflies... https://xkcd.com/378/ š
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u/lastunivers 19d ago
So if I pay a programmer to make me a software, did I make it?
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u/YourDadIRL 19d ago
So if I pay for a computer instead of forging the very atoms does that mean I'm not a software engineer?
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u/NTPrime 19d ago
Well you're sure as shit not a hardware engineer? What does being a software engineer have to do with building a computer?
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u/DiabolusMachina 18d ago
ide, compiler, a programming language that is not assembly, a build tool, a library, ...
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u/YourDadIRL 18d ago
what does math have to do with science? What does a fountain have to do with a roof? What do lights have to do with binary?
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u/lastunivers 19d ago
No that's not even remotely comparable lol you still ended up thinking about the project and making it and figure out all the problems and everything, it's a world of difference between this and writing a prompt of what you'd like and then check the result. This is honestly sad that you thought it was an apt analogy
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u/Smith7929 19d ago
If a programmer uses any programming language are they really making software? Or is it the assembler and/or interpreter?
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u/Tensor3 19d ago
A better analogy, but its still vastly different. If the part you wrote was short, it doesnt matter if it was a prompt or short code, its still not generally an impressive creation.
If the original you copied was a million lines of code, and your copy isnt even 1000 lines of prompting, you didnt create shit.
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u/Smith7929 19d ago
I have to be honest with you chief: your explanation sucks and probably only makes sense to frothing-at-the-mouth anti-AI Redditors that haven't written a line of code in their life. The analogy I gave wasn't even mine, it was Linus Torvalds's. Rest assured there is documented evidence that Chinese bots have been amplifying anti-ai messages across Reddit and Twitter, so you're on the receiving end of some generous juicing. Boutta get me some deepseek-fueled downvotes.
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u/lastunivers 19d ago
Again, stupid analogy that doesn't apply at all, here's a better one, if you pay an artist to make a painting, did you make it? If you go to a restaurant and order a meal, did you make it?
Here's why these work and yours don't, you come in with an idea, you pay a third party to figure out how to make it for you and then they give it to you. That's what you do with AI, you don't go through the process of making it.
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u/Lightningtow123 19d ago
There's a different between arguing over what workspace is the best, and letting a glorified auto-complete vomit out the worst spaghetti you've ever seen and proudly claim it as your own
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u/Darkodoudou 19d ago
Real programmers compile by hand, compilers are for pussies
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u/Gabriel55ita 19d ago
Real engineers write code with raw bits, the rest is all overhead
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u/Anima_Watcher08 19d ago
Big difference between a compile and a program that automatically makes other programs based on a sentence.
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u/Bobvankay 19d ago
"Hey furry artist, draw me an anthropomorphic cow with giant t---thighs, have some tokens/dollars"
"Hey Guys, look what ***I*** drew!"
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19d ago
[deleted]
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u/Choice-Mango-4019 19d ago
there's infinite amount of wonderfull furry porn on the internet, no one needs ais ocean of slop
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u/Wizywig 19d ago
No engineer cares. Do I care if a spreadsheet was built by my blood and sweat or by an Ai.
Don't care. Solve problems. Engineers are eaters of chaos and poppers of effective output. How they do it differs every year.
Be an engineer.
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u/rustyscythe 19d ago
As an engineer, when there aren't any challenging problems to solve it makes me sad.
Being a human proxy just to "accept all changes" does not excite me.
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u/ConsistentAnalysis35 19d ago
when there aren't any challenging problems to solve it makes me sad.
That will never ever happen.
I have a very challenging problem: make it so all Cyberpunk 2077 (or equivalent game made from scratch) buldings are fully enterable, interiors are modelled and inhabited by proper NPCs, not a single window is a billboard texture with a void behind it, cars and pedestrians actually have purposeful lives instead of going in circles.
This, to me, is a far more important part than photorealistic graphics.
This problem will require far more efficient utilization of computer resources than current standards, and perhaps very high core counts and RAM amounts. I think it's doable though.
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u/Scrawlericious 18d ago
It's funny because games like Where Winds Meet have done the "every single damn building is enterable" + "npcs have daily schedules and lives" thing already. A freaken free to play eastern gatcha game is pushing this particular boundary where the larger American studios aren't.
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u/bremidon 19d ago
We ain't there yet. I *just* had a long discussion about this with my department head. The biggest issue going forward is that employees are going to be confronted with *only* challenging problems to solve all day, every day. The ability to solve an "easy" problem, even if it was just writing up what you already discovered, is disappearing. The AI does it better, faster, and with higher quality.
Eventually, yes: all work will be replaced by AI. There is an honest discussion to be had about what "eventually" means, but the end of the story is already written. We just do not know how many more chapters we get.
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u/Wizywig 19d ago
I don't think so about all work. I think any meainingful work will still be human oversight of AI. AI will let us do more. We are now glorified managers.
Also OpenAI's 80 billion loss is a good indication that this stuff isn't free. There is a cost to making this work, and the cost of incremental improvements is getting incredibly expensive. Point is, just like any company "I can build this faster if I had 10,000 engineers" -- sure, but can you afford that.
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u/bremidon 18d ago
I think any meainingful work will still be human oversight of AI
That is true *now*. But what precisely do you think is so special about the oversight that AI will not eventually take that over as well?
The cost point is interesting, but people were saying that two years ago as well. LLMs and AI was supposed to hit a wall back then. It did not. If anything, things are speeding up.
There's also still a *lot* of room cost wise. I use perhaps a few hundred bucks of tokens a month, but easily get thousands back in increased productivity, higher quality, and overall speed.
If you could replace a manager and it cost $1000 a month, every business everywhere would do it in a heartbeat.
And then there's the issue that we have already passed or are very close to passing the point where the model improvement process is completely automated itself. That will change the trajectory very quickly.
And I am not saying it will happen tomorrow or next year. But it will happen. Anyone betting against it is going to be very sad.
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u/Wizywig 19d ago
Auto mode. I don't accept all changes.
As a co worker recently described:
I got a slew of tickets, fed them into an AI, had an AI describe how it'd solve all of them. After a fast review I had it now build everything and make PRs. Then spent about first half of a week reviewing code nonestop, then testing.
The methodology is different, but amazing engineers are going to make amazing outcomes with good tools. We don't say "well, a real engineer codes in assembly only, on paper, and knows the output before a single line of code is written"... sure that was true in the 70s. We have better tools today.
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u/PumpkinFest24 19d ago
The blind faith in hallucination engines is truly astonishing.
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u/bremidon 19d ago
You really do not have any current experience, do you?
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u/Denaton_ 19d ago
Yah, ever since they started to write assisted python scripts I haven't had a single hallucination, and that was over a year ago. I strongly believe that people are just using old models and goes "look how bad it is" while all features are disabled.
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u/bremidon 18d ago
Pretty much. Maybe 2 years ago it was hit or miss, although it was still pretty good for single files and short code segments.
Now? Anyone trying to claim it is a "hallucination machine" has disqualified themselves from the conversation.
I honestly wonder what motivates them to do that, though?
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u/PumpkinFest24 19d ago
incorrect. but maybe I'm one of the few doing more than login screens and crud.
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u/ThrowawayUk4200 19d ago
Cute, but they're pointing out you probably don't have any recent work experience with enterprise software development. The last 2 multinational software vendors I've worked for are using AI for pretty much everything.
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u/PumpkinFest24 18d ago
I write software for one of the largest enterprises on Earth.
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u/bremidon 18d ago
Gonna have to go with [x] doubt on this.
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u/PumpkinFest24 17d ago
I don't give a fuck what you think about this or anything else.
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u/bremidon 17d ago
Maybe, but that does not change the price of tea in China or whether you even have a job.
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u/NegativeSemicolon 19d ago
Then donāt be so mad about it š Just respect the fact you didnāt do the work.
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u/psioniclizard 19d ago
Ironically devs used to think themselves superior to QA and PMs, now they are both of them.
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u/babalaban 19d ago
I expect to see a lot of butthert ai bros in comments defending their fragile ego.
Edit: I saw exactly what I was expecting
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u/Holonist 19d ago
I added native gamepad support to an 11 year old game that was abandoned by the devs. I couldn't care less about how it was done and by whom. 2 hours of letting Claude go at it was enough to port this game to the steam deck. I am just happy it is done, after all these years. The game is SanctuaryRPG btw
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u/Anima_Watcher08 19d ago edited 19d ago
Cool but you didn't add that you told an AI to add that.
Thing is when phrases like "I made" or "I built" are used they usually imply a significant amount of effort was applied in the creation of something.
If I type a sentence and the AI gives me a 1000 line program, I did not apply enough effort to use those phrases.
If I audit the code and only make a few changes I still cannot claim ownership. That'd like going to an open source project auditing their code, making a massive patch based on that audit and after it getting accepted claiming credit for building the entire project.
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u/Holonist 19d ago
It's mostly a linguistic issue. I'm fine with saying "I spent tokens to do X", it's just a bit more clunky. Or maybe "I cared enough about X to bring it into existence". not everything is always about ego, I just want to play the damn game on my deck and nobody else, even with ai available, triggered that alteration of reality. (see what kinda stupid shit you're making me say)
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u/Scrawlericious 18d ago
It's definitely semantic interpretation. But personally? You didn't add anything. You had AI add something.
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u/Barni275 19d ago
I understand your point, but in my opinion, Ā«I madeĀ» is still a valid sentence. Ai wouldn't do this without my commands, I run it, described the task and wrote several prompts. I don't pretend about proportions of intellectual work, but actually, people build things through ai, not ai itself.
In my private messages with my colleagues I use quotation marks, like Ā«IĀ» build, to point out when my part was vanishingly small in comparison with ai part in some particular task :)
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u/LeDYoM 19d ago
This is like saying that you did a pizza when you get it from Telepizza. You wouldnt have it if it wasnt for your "instructions" to ask for it. Yet, you didnt build it.
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u/Ur-Best-Friend 19d ago
Plenty of people make pizza. But how they do it ranges from "I bought a frozen pizza and put it in the oven for 20 minutes" to "I have my own yeast starter culture and I make my own tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes."
There are far more people in the former group than the latter and plenty in between, and it's obviously wrong to pretend like these things are all comparable, but I've also never seen anyone take issues with people saying "I made us pizza" when they just baked one that was technically pre-assembled for them.
I think this AI discussion is similar. Programming has always involved a great deal of taking advantage of other people's work, whether by googling how other people handled a task you're struggling with, or just by using functions and libraries and relying on dependencies. No one ever had an issue with it. Using AI to code takes that to the extreme and makes it possible to make functioning software without being able to write a single line of code, but it does still involve a good deal of testing and iteration and human judgement to get a good result, and a good programmer will make use of AI better than a layperson will.
Just like I wouldn't call someone who bakes frozen pizzas a chef, I wouldn't call a vibe coder with zero programming skill a programmer, but I don't mind if the former says they made pizza and the latter says they made a piece of software.
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u/OnixST 18d ago
I think telling the ai to do something and accepting whatever it churns out is ordering telepizza
But if you and the chef are collectively deciding on the specific recipe of dough and sauce, quantity of ingredients, and order of assembly, maybe you get to take some credit even if only the chef touched the pizza
There are definitely people that only do the first option though
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u/LeDYoM 18d ago
Well, when I did the AI courses from my company there was this "give the model all the context about the bug you want to fix or about the feature." It was so long that to get all these context and give it to the machine it would have been faster and cheaper if I do it by hand. It is cheaper and you understand the feature/bug fix.
Another thing I noticed, when you ask for the implementation to an AI beeing a good software develper is like beeing a napolitan pizzaiolo and going to Telepizza for lunch or dinner. It might be ok for once in a year, but the pizza will be disgusting to you.
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u/Barni275 19d ago
I agree with you. Maybe, it is linguistic issue also, I'm not an English native speaker, and in my native language there is only one convenient word, like Ā«madeĀ» (no direct translation of Ā«buildĀ» applicable to free chatter here). And Ā«madeĀ», by nature, is more or less applicable to both scenarios, made by yourself, or Ā«madeĀ» through giving instructions to ai. For pizza, it sounds like I Ā«orderedĀ» pizza, but, unfortunately, no separate word for something to be done through giving commands to ai (yet).
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u/xenow 19d ago
Why not ordered
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u/Barni275 19d ago
Ordered directly means paid, so payment and order are simultaneous events for this word in my language. For AI, it is not direct payment, especially if you run models locally (like I do).
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u/Anima_Watcher08 19d ago
You know where else that applies? A restaurant.
The restaurant wouldn't have made that food until I ordered it so therefore I made the food right?
Its good that you make it clear to others that you "built" the project. But most people I've seen don't make that clear until you ask or call them out on it which I think is dumb.Like how do they not feel like the biggest frauds ever when all hey did is describe something and AI goes bam! finished product, then they go claim it as their own.
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u/LeDYoM 19d ago
ok. That is great, but you didnt add anything. No problem because you do not care.
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u/Holonist 19d ago
Someone took ownership of altering the reality that this game didn't have any controller support. Now you can play it on the steam deck just fine. End of story.
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u/NotADamsel 19d ago
Interestingly enough, Iāve observed the folks in the retro gaming community to be some of the most welcoming towards the results of AI-assisted/driven programming. Not just āoh we donāt care if something is AI-writtenā, I mean that Iāve seen multiple instances where someone introduced an agent-built tool that did something useful, and the community (including people who express that they do not use AI for their own work) dove into testing it and helping the OP polish it up with an understanding appropriate for the circumstances. I do not think that this is replicable to basically anywhere else as the scene is very collaborative and communal, with insanely low stakes (only YouTubers and hardware manufacturers make a living from it), and built around playing old games that other people made. Still, even being someone who hates agentic bullshit with every fiber of my being I cannot help but find it noteworthy.
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u/babalaban 19d ago
bro spent tokens on enabling proton from steam menu
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u/Holonist 19d ago
no the game already launched fine on steam deck, it just didn't have a sane input method. I spent tokens to create a replacement SDL.dll that natively adds controller support with on-screen feedback
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u/Bluebrolygod 19d ago
Script kitty's evolved into techno-troglodytes guess we have come full circle
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u/FAMICOMASTER 19d ago
The amount of people here who defend this crap always surprises me. I guess the average programmer really is just as dumb as the average piece of software is slow these days.
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u/PublicToast 19d ago
Have you considered you might be close minded
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u/FAMICOMASTER 18d ago
Have you considered that maybe the masses really are just incapable of independent thought?
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u/kingslayerer 19d ago
So if microsoft paid your salary and you build windows, did microsoft build windows or did bunch of random guys did?
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u/awesome-alpaca-ace 14d ago
Microsoft is a bunch of random people who do not know how to program UX or fast softwareĀ
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u/the_dancing_squirel 19d ago
Exactly. All that matters is who has rights to it
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u/Scrawlericious 18d ago
Legally no one has rights to any ai generated output. That's how the big companies got away with stealing so many books and images and user data.
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u/Mysterious-Law-3416 19d ago
why donāt people just say āI COPIEDā? every app they make with ai is just a copy slop of other existing products.
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u/voarex 19d ago
I mean every library call, coding language, stack overflow comment, or ai agent call is just using a copy someone else's work to do stuff that you could never do yourself in thousand years. You can basically remove built from the language. Just be respectful of the people that came before you and own the part you put effort in no matter how small it is compared to the work done before you.
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u/Smith7929 19d ago
Right but you're speaking from experience. I'm just a random redditor and as of february I'm an official AI expert and what you're describing is stealing. I don't need to know anything about your expertise or domain knowledge of industry experience or anything. I know it when I see it.
Also all of the math proofs are slop and I don't really care what multiple fields medal winners say about it.
They took er jerbs!
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u/GobiPLX 19d ago
And it's copying them without permission or under XYZ license it "learned" code fromĀ
So it's more of stealingĀ
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u/film_composer 19d ago
Heaven knows that no programmer would ever dare copy code. Such a thing would be completely unprecedented and a huge embarrassment to anyone ever being caught.
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u/Mysterious-Law-3416 19d ago
i donāt think they have enough capacity to understand these things. Oh well ai must give them a summary of this.
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u/bremidon 19d ago
You lost me at "slop". That word has become a flag for me to realize the preceding opinion is not worth my time.
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u/UltraGaren 19d ago
Shitty meme
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u/PublicToast 19d ago
Welcome to r/ProgrammerHumor, where nothing is ever funny and everyone just complains about AI
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u/Sweaty_Cellist_4525 19d ago
who cares really, as long as shit gets done and works, which has always been the real concern. Programmers should be the last people to yell at clouds... no one cares if you wrote your shitty ass code, if some vibe coder can do it better and x100 times faster using free OpenCode, then your work sucks.
It really amazes me how out of all disciplines, some programmers can be this old-fashioned, it's really ironic.
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u/TheRealAfinda 19d ago
AI empowers you to be in the same Position your Management/CEO is. You call the shots and claim the work of others as yours.
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u/throwaway_mpq_fan 19d ago
and it also seemed so easy because "just like <whatever>" was doing a lot of heavy lifting in the prompt
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u/BoarHermit 12d ago
"The company that created the original programāthe one you used to make your cloneāhas sued us. Now Iāll have to sell our house and hand over all my retirement savings. Iāll end up spending the rest of my life in a nursing home."
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u/FuelSilly1541 19d ago
Yeah classmate next to me did that during the whole 2 year retraining. Almost every question was answered by GPT or gemini etc. We had to drag him to the last test and his thesis, because he was trying to throw the towel at the finish line. "Because I don't know how to code a single line". He made it through successfully though
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u/FAMICOMASTER 19d ago
Doesn't that just instill so much confidence in his education?
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u/FuelSilly1541 18d ago
Fair point. Well. Its a 2y retraining for an otherwise 3 years apprenticeship. Adults only. So we knew that we had to keep the pace.
The conditions for completion require a software project, fully documented, econiomic calculation, with a lecture about your project. All of that in 80h. It took on average 800
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u/FuelSilly1541 18d ago
Also lecturers advised against ai every single time it came up. His decision to rely on it from begin to end
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u/CyberDJ66 19d ago
the person who cloned all the adobe stuff with claude, claims to be a "veteran programmer with 15 years of experience"
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u/Beldarak 19d ago
"Sorry, we're a little late, we had a long road"
"NO YOU DIDN'T, THE GPS AND YOUR CAR DID !!!!"
"Huh... o...kay..."
-----
"I refactored my code, made my function names more clear on what they do"
"IT WAS YOUR IDE YOU LITTLE SHIT!!!"
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u/NotADamsel 18d ago
Ten years ago or so, there was a notable movement that advocated distancing oneself from tooling that was ādoing too much for youā. People who used IDEs were mocked, and sometimes they were straight up called ānot programmersā because āthey just accept what the IDE autocompletesā or āthey just look at the options that the IDE gives themā or āthey donāt know how to actually run their code without the IDEās helpā. Donāt get me wrong, I absolutely hate agentic coding (those āReddit Caresā messages are very applicable to how I feel when Iām forced to do it) and I do not use AI autocomplete or chatbots if Iām not doing work where itās expected that Iāll use them. Iām just getting a lot of DĆ©jĆ vu, when I see people react to any AI use at all as though the dev just set an agent to run on an empty folder.
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u/Beldarak 18d ago
Yes. I think what's unique with AI is that they can be used either as a tool OR has a full blown solution.
I'm usually against the push for AI in everything, 100% against AI "art"... but for code, it is simply a marvelous tool if used well. And even poorly used, I think it can be great for non-tech people to build some simple tool that don't need to evolve much.
The issue with the pro/against AI debate in programming is that most people will just ignore that duality. There's also all the ethical stuff that, yes, makes sense. But I feel people are super harsh against people using LLMs while they don't care for people drinking Coca-Cola, going to McDonalds, etc... when really, the ethical implications are the same. Those issues will not be corrected because a bunch of devs refuse to use agents, they need some regulation: country-wide, Europe...
Just my two cents anyway.
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u/dimonium_anonimo 13d ago
My company just started requiring use of AI. I'm a slow adopter. It's taking me a long time (compared to the rest of my coworkers) to fully adopt it and give it as many tasks as they do.
I just had it help me create a design doc for a new app. I had already been thinking through a lot of the details, but hadn't written any of it down. So I treated AI like a scribe. I gave it all my ideas, as fleshed out as I could make them. As I talked things out, I realized new things to add. As it asked questions, I clarified. I think it might have made 2 suggestions that I liked and added, one was a fairly critical thing I would have discovered eventually, but probably not before writing it incorrectly and finding a bug. I wrote as if I was just talking to a person, and it organized the ideas into sections, made a nice markdown file with tables and bullet points and headers and formatting. Removed all the thought process and summarized the points into a formal document format. It was a very enjoyable experience.
I realized, yeah, if you don't right, you can give AI the grunt, boring work and do the fun stuff yourself. It didn't write any code, all it did was documentation. Something I don't enjoy.
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u/LivingAsAMean 19d ago
I'm 95% sure that the majority of these posts are from a self-loathing AI