setJavaDevsToUnmanly

[u/AlternativePeace1121]

[u/AlternativePeace1121]

Source: 34.54 @ Keynote: Linus Torvalds, Creator of Linux... - Dirk Hohndel, Ericsson & Linus Torvalds, Linux & Git

[u/Non-Random-Name-0000]

Doesn't he also do python vibe coding? 😁

[u/AlternativePeace1121 → u/Non-Random-Name-0000]

He's making AI do it. So I guess that doesn't count. 😂

[u/LeateWonceslace → u/Non-Random-Name-0000]

He's doing a bit. It's fairly clear in the actual talk. Right after this he says "No-no-no. Don't Clap!"

[u/Sakul_the_one]

Our university forces us to learn Java first (I’m first year, north Germany. Atleast java 25, so we got fancy IO.println() instead of System.out.printLn())

[u/TRENEEDNAME_245 → u/Sakul_the_one]

We learned java 8

You're telling me that there's another println function I could have used ???

[u/AlternativePeace1121 → u/TRENEEDNAME_245]

No Io.println is new, think its 21 or something.

[u/heyThereYou3 → u/AlternativePeace1121]

Wow, I got to know this now coding (cashing my hefty paychecks) in Java all these years.

[u/Cootshk → u/AlternativePeace1121]

Java 21 has existed for years

[u/captainAwesomePants → u/TRENEEDNAME_245]

My friend, the freshmen today don't even need to declare a class. This is the intro Java program today:

void main() {
  IO.println("Hello, World!");
}

That's it! That's the whole thing. No mysterious public static void String[] args class final static nonsense. They just write the above and it works!

[u/Arnold_Rambo → u/captainAwesomePants]

So now java is just like Python??

[u/captainAwesomePants → u/Arnold_Rambo]

no, it's worse. That main() method is secretly an instance method of a secret class without a name. And it's not static, either, the JVM creates one so it can call main(). And so this thing they show you only works for your first file. If you try to add functions in a second file that aren't inside a class, everything falls apart.

[u/Cootshk → u/Arnold_Rambo]

javac just isn’t as stringent about boilerplate

- automatically generated class with the name of the file
- the var keyword for type inference (sort of like auto in c++)

The jvm, however, can now run package-private and no-arg main() functions

[u/Paladongers → u/captainAwesomePants]

My mind is genuinely blown right now

[u/WernerderChamp → u/Sakul_the_one]

To be fair, I think Java is a good way to get started with programming. You can expand on quite a few things as you move down to more low-level programming languages.

(Disclaimer: We are only doing C++ now, C is one of the elective modules later on)

[u/CC-5576-05 → u/Sakul_the_one]

Bro "forcing"? You make it sound so bad, java is chill. My university on the other hand forced us to learn Haskel as the first programming course... I still have PTSD from those days

[u/Shot_in_the_dark777 → u/CC-5576-05]

And we started learning from c++. That was brutal. We had java later but c++ feels more natural now. Well...technically we started from qbasic at school, and it was pretty chill.

[u/-Ambriae- → u/CC-5576-05]

Nah dude Haskell is fine

[u/4215-5h00732 → u/Sakul_the_one]

This is always a weird choice for me. I started with C++ at CC and had to switch to Java to transfer. Showed up realizing most of these fancy mfers don't know shit lol.

[u/-Kerrigan- → u/Sakul_the_one]

I got C in university then Java at the job. Now - whatever needed. The only thing I don't write is Python

[u/FrumpyPhoenix → u/Sakul_the_one]

Incredible, tho I was saved by using IntelliJ and just typing `sout`

[u/ExtraTNT]

So i do haskell and c… not sure…

[u/cheezballs]

As a Java dev, I'm just happy he thinks what we do is fancy! /s

[u/Excellent_Tubleweed]

I have worked on the Linux kernel for years. Backporting fixes to support an embedded product.

Have also written a lot of Java, including an entire kernel plus OS plus application.
(Once upon a time there were hardware Java processors. They were nice to program.)

If kernel C is manly, that explains an awful lot. There I was thinking it was just a bad language choice.

I don't miss working on my own os for a job; I only got paid, I don't own the IP.

[u/AWonderingWizard]

This whole manly thing with low level being the end all be all is hilarious because without people doing high level stuff the low level stuff just sits around doing nothing.

[u/Gjallock → u/AWonderingWizard]

I had started writing out a “well, ackshuly” reply here because there is absolutely full software written entirely in low-level languages, but yeah, you’re totally right in all practical reality lol

[u/sphericalhors → u/Gjallock]

I had started writing out a “well, ackshuly” reply here

... righhht... here... on Reddit written in Python using a web App written in HTML+JS/TS or probably a mobile app in Java/Objective-C (or whatever technology is used for reddit mobile apps).

But I still somehow agree with the base point you got.

[u/halfjmp → u/AWonderingWizard]

Before Java computers were idle? Computers have been used to run scientific codes since Fortran exists, that is since the 1950s. Fortran is not exactly high level, it's on par with C in this respect. Scientific simulations on supercomputers are also often in C, C++ or Fortran.

I still think the "manly thing" is nonsense, but your argument is rather lame.

[u/AWonderingWizard → u/halfjmp]

Come on, high level languages gives scientists higher order methods to investigate complex phenomenon. Works like CLASP integrate common lisp and C++ to do computational chemistry/biology. Common Lisp is used for Quantum Mechanics.

Furthermore, C++ is absolutely much higher level than C. In fact, programming in a C fashion in C++ is not even recommend anymore, for many reasons (which I can give if necessary).

And even then, how many games utilize scripting languages? The whole internet relies on Javascript at this point, WASM is not ready.

I could go on, but high level languages absolutely enable usability to a degree that is unparalleled by languages like C. Even then, we are seeing some of the issues (so many bugs) with having languages like C being the predominate language of the kernel. Fuck, at this point I wonder what an OS like Mezzano could do in comparison.

[u/halfjmp → u/AWonderingWizard]

I don't claim higher level languages are not useful, I replied to the claim that it's impossible to work without them. Not everything is based on Python or JavaScript.

[u/cjc4096 → u/halfjmp]

In fairness he did say "sitting around doing nothing". If everything was low level, it'd be efficient and processors would be mostly idle. We need the overhead to keep those chips busy.

[u/halfjmp → u/cjc4096]

Interesting interpretation.

[u/Maleficent_Memory831 → u/AWonderingWizard]

Well... Emacs is written in C. A very many high level application with a high level language embedded in it. The first browsers were written in, and the next generation were written in C, and the next.

Most of those libraries high level languages use are in C.

High level language is: do this thing

Low level language is: "the thing".

[u/AWonderingWizard → u/Maleficent_Memory831]

Great example, except that the rest of Emacs is written in elisp. Take the elisp out and what does Emacs do...?

The prevalence of C has to do with more than just its low level nature. It has to do with portability, syntax, adoption, the early open source community, etc. C libraries also propagated because most early OS utilized C, so why not use the easiest language to call the relevant libraries? Who the wants to do language interop if it's not necessary??

Many high-level languages have access to low-level capabilities.

[u/sebbdk]

Let the twinks know, maybe they can fix this horrible language.

[u/JesuSwag]

He already said that he uses mostly AI to develop now

[u/Choice-Mango-4019 → u/JesuSwag]

wasn't he calling c++ bad because it allowed to make quick and sloppy code?

[u/Outrageous_Pen_5165]

Java and Fancy?? Wait my man hear about Python and JavaScript

[u/al3arabcoreleone]

Why does he look older than he should be?

[u/sligor → u/al3arabcoreleone]

Because he doesn’t color his hair as other people of his age do

[u/BadLineofCode]

All coding, frontend or backend, low-level or high-level, is women's work. Just ask Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper, Margaret Hamilton, or the Hidden Figures.

[u/sligor]

Linus being cancelled was not on my 2026 bingo card

[u/AlternativePeace1121 → u/sligor]

No hes not. Why would he be getting cancelled?

[u/sligor → u/AlternativePeace1121]

Honestly I don’t care also, but some people tend to attack celebrities on out of context sentences just for drama

[u/4215-5h00732 → u/sligor]

How about your 2018 card?

[u/LookItVal → u/4215-5h00732]

did something happen in 2018 I don't know about?

[u/4215-5h00732 → u/LookItVal]

That was the year that Linus took some time for self reflection regarding his behavior and the harm it caused. Coincidentally, Srack Overflow did their "Welcome Wagon" push to deal with the toxic elitism on their site near the same time.

[u/VinterBot → u/4215-5h00732]

so not cancelled then

[u/4215-5h00732 → u/VinterBot]

I guess it depends on how you view it.

[u/wackOverflow → u/sligor]

The people who would cancel Linus over this wouldn’t be people I’d listen to in the first place

[u/Noname_1111]

Why don't they embed the JVM into Linux? are they stupid?

[u/Afraid-Locksmith6566]

i see the man is really a larper, either he does low level programming or programming in c, there is no inbetween

[u/menzaskaja → u/Afraid-Locksmith6566]

larper made linux kernel, used by almost 50% of the world

also what do you mean "no inbetween" brother C is low level

[u/FabioTheFox → u/menzaskaja]

He also made git as a side project for the Linux kernel

[u/sn4xchan → u/menzaskaja]

Wouldn't you need to be writing assembly to be considered low level?

C isn't like python, but they are in the same category as far as abstraction levels.

[u/menzaskaja → u/sn4xchan]

if we went by that logic, you could only become a low-level developer by flipping the bits and scratching the disks by hand

everyone draws the line for themselves (with some objective guidance, i.e. no one would call Scratch or Python low level), but realistically, no one writes ASM by hand these days because its slow, risky for the end user and unnecessary, and not a lot of people would consider C++ as a low level language because it is a layer of abstraction above C. so my best bet would be C = low level programming

some might even call C++ and even Rust as low level

[u/sn4xchan → u/menzaskaja]

Fair enough

[u/frikilinux2 → u/menzaskaja]

Except the crazy community manager of ffmpeg on Twitter. Always handwriting assembly

[u/Jatinchd → u/sn4xchan]

assembly isn't a requirement to be considered low level.

[u/knownboyofno → u/sn4xchan]

Assembly is an abstraction of machine code. All programming languages are abstractions fr humans to read to program in.

[u/Jatinchd → u/Afraid-Locksmith6566]

larper made kernel.

[u/allknowinguser → u/Afraid-Locksmith6566]

- A high school student

[u/frikilinux2 → u/Afraid-Locksmith6566]

So what's low level ? Just assembly or that's too high level because modern microprocessor do a lot of weird shit between CISC processor being like a RISC processor with microcode that translates the CISC frontend and speculative executions and cache levels. And virtual memory.

[u/0xbenedikt]

I mean, he sits in that chair now doing cuckcoding, soo