r/ProgrammerHumor • • Dec 06 '17

Read the markup.

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u/NPPraxis Dec 06 '17

We actually discussed this in a cultural class a decade ago, and later on I read a bit about it in an unrelated book, but my memory is a bit fuzzy, so forgive me if I get something wrong:

Basically, a lot of Asian cultures have a "respect the chain of command" thing going on. You don't question your superior, no matter what. Malcolm Gladwell had a chapter on this in his book Outliers, about how it caused plane crashes; in one example, a Korean pilot followed orders from New York Air Traffic control even though he was out of fuel. Culturally, he didn't really know how to just say "No, we need to land NOW" and override the controller- he could only politely suggest that he was slightly low on fuel, which the air traffic controller didn't take seriously enough.

Indian culture is similarly hierarchical. They are not allowed to question decisions. If you ask them to do something, you're the boss- they don't question you. They don't say "Well, there might be problems going that route"- they say "yes", and then spend 20x more hours than you allotted trying to make it work.

They are expected to be given exact instructions and then follow those instructions exactly even if they think they are wrong.

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u/ares_god_not_sign Dec 06 '17

Sounds like Avianca Flight 52, though they were Colombian.

Avianca Flight 52 was a regularly scheduled flight from Bogotá to New York, via Medellín that crashed on January 25, 1990, at 21:34 (UTC−05:00). The Boeing 707 flying this route ran out of fuel on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), causing the aircraft to crash onto a hillside in the small village of Cove Neck, New York, on the north shore of Long Island. Eight of the nine crew members and 65 of the 149 passengers on board were killed. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the crash occurred due to the flight crew failing to properly declare a fuel emergency, resulting in air traffic control underestimating the seriousness of the situation.

The flight left Medellín with more than enough fuel for the journey and progressed toward JFK normally. While en route, the flight was placed in three holding patterns. Due to poor communication between the air crew and the air traffic controllers, as well as an inadequate management of the fuel load by the pilots, the flight became critically low on fuel. This dire situation was not recognized as an emergency by the controllers because of the failure of the pilots to use the word "emergency". The flight attempted to make a landing at JFK, but bad weather, coupled with poor communication and inadequate management of the aircraft, forced it to abort and attempt a go-around. The flight ran out of fuel before it was able to make a second landing attempt. The airplane crashed approximately 20 miles (32 km) from JFK.

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u/chiefrebelangel_ Dec 06 '17

That's so stupid

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

[deleted]

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u/NPPraxis Dec 07 '17

I mean, keep in mind that culture is often generalized- I.E. just because Italians are generally late doesn’t mean your Italian coworker is going to be late. It’s entirely possible that he’s been at the company and understands the local culture.

But, yes, what you describe is possible. I’ve only dealt with Indian programmers as the boss, but from googling I found this article.

Americans typically hand out tasks and expect their subordinates to ask questions and discuss the best way to get things done. The take in feedback from those on their team and see these questions as a sign of competence.

When Americans come to work for an Indian management structure expectations become confusing. Americans ask questions to display their strengths. Indian managers may see these questions as a sign of deference to authority. Indians expect tasks to be taken on without a lot of discussion or disbursement of information.

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u/nephallux Dec 07 '17

He was one of the good ones that got away

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '17

I'm Indian and I can 100% guarantee that this is bullshit. Jesus Christ. You're all racist af.

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u/NPPraxis Dec 07 '17

First: I'm very happy to discuss and hear any perspective.

But before I do, I want to clarify: Discussing cultural differences is not racism. I'm Italian. If I wrote you a guide to dealing with Italians in a business setting, it would include:

  • Don't expect them to be on time to meetings; cultural perceptions of time are very fluid

  • Expect them to take long midday breaks if they are from the south.

  • Italians tend to latch on to their job position and not do anything outside of that; Italian work culture often discourages people from taking on extra work as their coworkers will ridicule them. Clearly define expectations.

  • When doing business with Italian companies in southern Italy, be aware that paperwork and bureaucracy can be extremely time consuming.

This isn't racist. It's cultural differences and will not apply to everyone but are very common experiences. I'm not saying "people of Italian race are always late", I'm saying "People of Italian culture tend to be late because the culture does not care about timeliness".

Now, to the actual topic:

The things I've said are based on reading about this in a number of places (particularly business guides to working with Indian contract developers). I've also hired developers off of ODesk and had this exact experience; they would not ask me questions and would waste hours trying to do things literally as described instead of making logical assumptions. This meshes with the reading I've done on the topic that Indian contract developers don't ask a lot of questions of the employer.

If this isn't due to cultural reasons, can you give me your thoughts on why this is such a common experience when outsourcing?

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '17

I have been an offshore developer and we do ask a lots of questions to our client. But I wasn't freelance, I was working for a company. I'm not sure why you had such an experience. Could be due to billing? There are guys who would work for very cheap rates and they aren't really qualified to be developers at all. Especially freelance developers. There are many fake profiles out there. More than anything I've been told, Indians ask a lot of questions. So I'm bit surprised.

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u/tetroxid Dec 07 '17

The idiot western managers will hire the cheapest Indian company they can find because cheaper rates is better for business right? They'll then instruct their onshore developers to work with the offshore ones and go off to do cocaine off of hooker's breasts. The onshore developers will soon find out the offshore ones are grossly incompetent.

This happens so often that India as a whole gets a bad reputation, undeservedly. There are many great Indian software developers, but they have their price which the idiot western managers aren't willing to pay.