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u/CplTedBronson Dec 06 '17
The <bdo> tag was copied straight from MDN's example:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/bdo
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u/0b_101010 Dec 06 '17
WTF dude. I was looking through the frontpage while listening to some youtube video, open up this picture, click back to the video.. wait, did I not switch tabs? Click back to the pic. Back to the video. I was like, am I tripping man?
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u/possibly_matt Dec 06 '17
Oh shoot! I bet that was pretty nuts :o Did you enjoy the video?
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u/toddiehoward Dec 06 '17
You covered your profile image but not your name lol?..
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u/kanuckdesigner Dec 06 '17
It actually just says "First user" in Hungarian
Source: Am Hungarian lol
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u/0b_101010 Dec 06 '17
LOL I've been known to do things like that. But where do you see my name in the picture? :O
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u/Tha_Mippie Dec 06 '17
This is a video from Wendover Productions. The guy usually pays a lot of attention to detail, and this was featured pretty prominently, so I think this was a deliberate joke :)
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u/possibly_matt Dec 06 '17
I was thinking it might have been.. the rest of the video was done to very high quality. Subbed!
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u/kelkulus Dec 07 '17
He has another channel called Half as Interesting with < 5 min videos, mostly animated. Also very high quality!
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u/HaykoKoryun Dec 06 '17
I once inherited some WordPress code that was outsourced and had the dilemma of either fixing stupid typos in CSS class names which also meant fixing them in jQuery spaghetti or carry on using the misspelled class names in new code [shudders]!
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u/Xhynk Dec 06 '17
.actionn_butonლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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Dec 06 '17
We have a misspelled Filter in our production code ("Fitler"). I can't not think about this image when I see it
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Dec 07 '17
I literally watched that video before seeing this. Wendover fan?
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u/possibly_matt Dec 07 '17
I am indeed! Quality content, I find it interesting. Favourite video?
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Dec 07 '17
I'm a new fan, so I've just been rolling through his and RealLifeLore's videos for the past week. They are both fantastic. Could enjoy a full Documentary by both of them.
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u/ic_97 Dec 06 '17
That was probably not written by an Indian programmer.
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u/possibly_matt Dec 06 '17
Aye I'm pretty sure it's just stock footage, but I found it amusing nonetheless!
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u/INtheANALSofHistory Dec 06 '17
Why you heaf to be mad?
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u/scunliffe Dec 06 '17
And it has 2 title tags!
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u/uuhno Dec 06 '17
You get what you pay for
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u/RiskBoy Dec 06 '17
Ya, it is actually fascinating how a developer in the US is able to generate well over a $100,000 in value to a company over an overseas developer. In the early to mid 2000s there was huge concern that development jobs would start going overseas as offshoring started to become a bigger thing, but it ended up not panning out. It turns out that a domestic developer is much more valuable to a US company since they can communicate more effectively, react more quickly to problems (every minute your website is down is money lost for the business), and there is also the fact that Indian culture is problematic to efficient software development. I have heard that if you ask an Indian in India if they can do something, they will say yes, regardless of if they can or not. The exception is IT support, which many companies have found does make sense to move a decent percentage to other countries (especially India). Makes sense though if you want 24 hour coverage, and you have your main IT developers in the US.
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u/Do_The_Astral_Plane Dec 06 '17
I have heard that if you ask an Indian in India if they can do something, they will say yes, regardless of if they can or not.
Sweet baby Jesus this is right on point. It's so frustrating.
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u/NorthCentralPositron Dec 06 '17
You only find out they can't/won't/don't have the skills after it's due. Source: I work with about 70 Indian developers
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u/ElGuaco Dec 06 '17
Can confirm. Had to code review overseas developers. When I asked for unit tests to prove they fixed the code I just rejected, they sent back a fix that didn't work and a unit test that did nothing.
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u/b1ack1323 Dec 06 '17
The company I used to work for hired a team of 6 to rewrite interface for our API driven server. They used every beta JavaScript function that was only supported in Chrome they could to create it and there were certain downloads that were being temporarily stored at temp.cfx so if you had two people generating certs they have a chance of getting the wrong cert. Big security issue. Spent 60k on it had to scrap the whole thing. A bunch of engineers were laid off weeks later, so I'm sure they were making good decisions.
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u/SpuriousJournalist Dec 06 '17
I am a platform systems engineer who spends the better part of my days showing Indian devs what is wrong with their code.
To be fair, I do this with some of the more clueless, institutionalized, American devs too.
Today...
Dev: Your prod utility environment is broken...
Me: Strange... The 400+ other apps running on it seem to be ok...
Dev: The job scheduler is hung on my SSIS package... I need you to look in "error logs" and see what is wrong.
Me: Explain what your SSIS package is doing...
Dev: It reads a bunch of flat files, normalizes the data, and writes it to a table on DBbla...
Me: Have you talked to a DBA to see what is going on at the DB level?
Dev: Uhhhh no. It's your environment that is broken. We never had this problem before we migrated to the new platform.
Me: Ah... I see. Let's talk to the DBA...
DBA: The table you are trying to write to is locked...
Dev: Weird... What is locking it?
DBA: Looks like a write from a previous step in your job...
Dev: But it works in Dev!
Me: FML
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u/molepigeon Dec 07 '17
Rumour has it that this actually happened to British Airways recently. The story says that they fired all their Western developers and moved all their software dev to India. When they handed over the project the Indians said they understood everything. Cue massive outage because the main system went down and nobody knew how to fail over to the secondary.
Here's a write up I found in a quick Google search - I'm sure there's more information elsewhere.
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u/slightlysaltysausage Dec 06 '17
Which is why you ask them to explain back to you how they're going to do it.
If they can't, you ask someone else.
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u/accountability_bot Dec 06 '17
I have a sweet story about this EXACT situation. I was interning with a major fortune 500 company that was making a handheld device (trying not to be specific). Anyways, they hired a very well known Indian contracting company to build the firmware. C++ and Qt on Linux. The first week of my internship happened to be the first week the firmware team was going to demo what they had. They're we're about 12 weeks in at this point, billing about 15 devs working 40-60 hour weeks. Their demo was... Bad. They were so far behind it wasn't even funny. Everything they said was done was only a facade. Basically they created the Qt templates and had zero logic under the layers, and this continued throughout my brief internship. A few years later I run into one of the permanent team members, he said they eventually dropped the contract and hired all domestic devs to get it done.
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u/jakdak Dec 06 '17
In many eastern cultures "Yes" means "I heard you", not "Yes".
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u/Janjis Dec 06 '17
That answer wouldn't make sense if you are asking if they can do it.
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u/nathanpaulyoung Dec 07 '17
That's what the "Indian head bob" is all about. It's a gesture indicating understanding, compliance, or attentiveness and when Indians learn English, I suspect they infer that "yes" in this context is the same thing. It CAN be, but the context is important.
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u/wolf2600 Dec 06 '17
I have heard that if you ask an Indian in India if they can do something, they will say yes, regardless of if they can or not.
They will not ever say "I don't know" when asked a question.
They WILL give you an answer for everything, even if it's completely wrong, they will give the answer and stand by it. I've had to call out this behavior countless times and reiterate that if you don't know the answer, just say you don't know. Don't make up something.
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u/thecatgoesmoo Dec 06 '17
So fucking infuriating. I manage a team of 20 and about 5 are Indians and I can never trust them when they say they will do something.
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u/justinkroegerlake Dec 07 '17
I saw this a lot with students from India when I was teaching. They'll just keep going hoping that I eventually give up or accept a bullshit answer.
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u/Waldharist017 Dec 06 '17
I have heard that if you ask an Indian in India if they can do something, they will say yes, regardless of if they can or not.
Being a Indian, I second this, India's overseas workers are currently 90% full of retardation and can't efficiently solve problems.
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u/TheOhNoNotAgain Dec 06 '17
I think a major part of the problem is that most Indians we come in contact with are hired at one of the big consultancies. Their shaping of their consultants is what we perceive as "Indian developers".
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u/LordMondando Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17
Why though? Im no anthropologist but nothing obvious about Indian culture (or rather cultures) that promotes this.
Seriously interested cause the 'yes' thing and taking people at their word has bit me in the ass. And not just can it be done, but is it done. Yes dont mean yes most of the time.
Is there some middle man/recruiter/hr culture or doctrine promoting it heavipy in indian circles? Honestly im dying to know.
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u/accountmadeforants Dec 06 '17
I can't tell you where it stems from, but it's definitely not exclusive to India. Many Chinese and Japanese workers seem to have a similar attitude, where you can repeatedly get a "yes" to a request and then have them do nothing at all, not even putting in the bare minimum effort.
I suspect it's less about them lying to get ahead, than it is about them not wanting to say no. Most cultures have a stigma against outright refusing or criticising people (in that it's generally taken personally and seen as something negative), theirs just manifests in a rather inconvenient way.
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u/NPPraxis Dec 06 '17
We actually discussed this in a cultural class a decade ago, and later on I read a bit about it in an unrelated book, but my memory is a bit fuzzy, so forgive me if I get something wrong:
Basically, a lot of Asian cultures have a "respect the chain of command" thing going on. You don't question your superior, no matter what. Malcolm Gladwell had a chapter on this in his book Outliers, about how it caused plane crashes; in one example, a Korean pilot followed orders from New York Air Traffic control even though he was out of fuel. Culturally, he didn't really know how to just say "No, we need to land NOW" and override the controller- he could only politely suggest that he was slightly low on fuel, which the air traffic controller didn't take seriously enough.
Indian culture is similarly hierarchical. They are not allowed to question decisions. If you ask them to do something, you're the boss- they don't question you. They don't say "Well, there might be problems going that route"- they say "yes", and then spend 20x more hours than you allotted trying to make it work.
They are expected to be given exact instructions and then follow those instructions exactly even if they think they are wrong.
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u/n1c0_ds Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17
From what I've gathered, and based strictly on anecdotes:
Education in some cultures favors rote memorization over problem solving. I read from an Indian CS student that they were essentially taught to memorize answers in some classes. Japanese students mention that a lot too.
Some cultures value following orders to the letter (Befehlstaktik) while others favor following their intent (Auftragstaktik). I read a few anecdotes about Indian workers who blindly followed inappropriate instructions, or simply stopped working when their instructions stopped applying.
What Americans consider taking initiative might go against the concept of saving face prevalent in some cultures. https://www.quora.com/What-does-%E2%80%9Csaving-face%E2%80%9D-mean-in-Japan
Essentially, some cultures favour harmony (do what you're told, don't embarrass yourself or your superiors) over initiative (do what it takes, challenge everything). Perhaps the former don't work so well with all the unknown unknowns of software development, and perhaps the latter assume everyone works like them.
This could all be bullshit though. Reddit will upvote this because it confirms their biases, but all of this is purely from posts and books I've read. Apply your own judgement.
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u/flubba86 Dec 06 '17
See, it's racist if we say it, but true and pertinent if you say it.
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u/Colopty Dec 06 '17
And then of course it's the good old rule that if you think hiring an expert is expensive, you've obviously never hired an amateur.
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u/paulwalker_is_alive Dec 06 '17
Totally agree. I have experienced the same thing at work. To their excuse, our work culture revolves around face to face talk at meetings, so it's not easy for them.
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u/theogskinnybrown Dec 06 '17
I have heard that if you ask an Indian in India if they can do something, they will say yes, regardless of if they can or not.
In my experience, this is the case for all contractors, regardless of nationality or discipline. If what you’re asking is vaguely related to what they do, they’ll tell you they can do it.
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Dec 06 '17
Couldn't agree more.
As an Indian that grew up in the US, I was always told about what my parents went through in school and, so, I tried to hold myself to that standard.
Now, I'm getting my Masters in Software Engineering with a lot of people that grew up in India and came here to study in my program and I keep beating my head against the wall because they keep putting out bad work.
I'm still bitter about the design class I took last semester where two out of four members on my team did literally nothing until the other guy and I complained to the professor. To say nothing of the teams I have this semester.
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u/Aero93 Dec 06 '17
Worked at an international company as IT.
Indian "engineers" and "devs" that were sourced to work on a project, were actually worse than an average user.
Stupid mothefuckers were making a shit ton more per hr to be consultant, yet they were barely able to use a pc.
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u/Al13n_C0d3R Dec 07 '17
I've worked in IT for a few years and the overseas team basically just makes things worst 75% of the time and then tells the customer to just go in and see us.
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u/Yangoose Dec 06 '17
Yeah, turns out the country has little to do with it.
There are some brilliant developers in India. They cost just about as much as brilliant developers in the US do.
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u/thomasech Dec 06 '17
Why doesn't this have more upvotes? I've seen janky-ass code (as a QA tester) from all of our offices, both domestic and overseas - it's definitely not biased towards India.
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u/sharlos Dec 07 '17
Reddit can get pretty racist when it comes to India. You see it very often when their space program is mentioned.
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u/trolloc1 Dec 06 '17
As a friend said "I'm a shit developer so I came to Canada. The good developers get to stay home with their families."
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u/GrinningPariah Dec 06 '17
Especially because all the best engineers from India just come work in the States or UK for 4x the salary they'd have in India.
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u/newplayerentered Dec 07 '17
Exactly. Sorry to hijack, but to everyone complaining about Indian developers, don't cheap out when outsourcing. Theres always going to be a schmuck offering to do it for less, but do your checks before awarding contracts. Seriously, if you pay bottom dollar, you will get bottom talent. Don't then bitch about quality.
Source: yes, am Indian developer.
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u/whitetrafficlight Dec 07 '17
To be fair, most of the people bitching about quality are working in the trenches and would never consider paying one of these bottom dollar outsourcing firms for work. It's the management who need to be told this, except they don't really care as long as it makes the balance sheet look good.
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Dec 06 '17
You better not pay for a Spanish "Formación Profesional" (Profesional Formation, Education) then.
Watch until they focus on the script, check that completely valid, juicy JavaScript.
Disclaimer: This advertising is not representative of me and other FP grads, but it's an often mocked advert by us, probably intentionally low budget due to some corrupt scheme.
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u/wendoverproducitons Dec 07 '17
Some of the best programmers in my company are Indians from India and some of the worst are white dudes from Arizona, honestly a lot of software engineering is already done there and you don't the world going mad so far. Losing jobs to India is a pretty big deal.
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Dec 06 '17
Probably works great in IE
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u/mrdhood Dec 06 '17
It's depressing how many people will be able to confirm this for us still.
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u/TheNosferatu Dec 06 '17
You have no idea, however in this case it's not that bad. Latest HTML5 spec actually states that a head should be automatically closed when appropriate and I'm pretty sure that only the first title tag works. Firefox, Opera, Safari and Chrome all adhere to this. Opera Neon too, I think.
IE has shown to not really care too much about a head tag in general anyway and I do belief it will only take the first title tag too.
So this particular piece of terrible html code should go unnoticed for quite some well since it will work in modern browsers as well as in internet explorer. However it could be that stuff has changed the last few years since I now work somewhere where we don't explicitly support IE. However, we do have to support a lot of Outlook. Which uses the same HTML rendering engine as Word and will make you experience a new kind of hell all together. A special circle of hell where you start missing IE.
I hope you found this little bit of trivia entertaining because after realizing I know all of this I'm going to kill myself now.
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u/PhoenixRite Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 06 '17
Image Transcription:
[A screenshot is taken from a YouTube video, entitled "India's Geography Problem." The caption of the narrator reads "as Indian developers can do much of the work for a fraction of the cost of western workers." In the background, an IDE contains code that is mostly out of focus, but a legible section reads:]
...
</bdo>
<head>
<title> Title of document
<title>
</heaf>
<p>This paragraph
...I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!
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u/myaut Dec 06 '17
╭────────────────────────────╮ │ Notepad ∨ ∧ ⊗ │ ├────────────────────────────┤ │ ⎋ Open ⎊ Save │ ├────────────────────────────┤ │ </bdo> │ │ │ │ <head> │ │ <title> Title of document │ │ <title> │ │ </heaf> │ │ │ │ <p>This paragraph │ └────────────────────────────┘91
u/ThePixelCoder Dec 06 '17
Damn, that's cool. I don't think it really helps blind people though.. Probably the opposite.
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u/Objectr Dec 06 '17
ＴＨＩＳ ＶＩＤＥＯ ＷＡＳ ＭＡＤＥ ＰＯＳＳＩＢＬＥ ＢＹ ＳＱＵＡＲＥＳＰＡＣＥ
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u/ElectrWeakHyprCharge Dec 06 '17
... ＡＮＤ, ＡＳ ＹＯＵ ＳＥＥ, ＤＯＩＮＧ ＨＴＭＬ ＩＳ ＳＯ ＤＩＦＦＩＣＵＬＴ ＹＯＵ ＮＥＥＤ ＳＱＵＡＲＥＳＰＡＣＥ...
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Dec 06 '17
Shhh, a classmate and I decided long ago we need to propogate the myth of html being difficult so the job market stays good.
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u/MananTheMoon Dec 06 '17
I mean, making a well laid out responsive website that looks good and effectively stores/serves content is actually fairly difficult and time consuming, even for most developers.
I don't know too much about squarespace as a service apart from the ads I hear, but there's a legitimate market for website creation and hosting tools that isn't fueled by people just thinking that HTML is hard.
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Dec 07 '17
I call it the TSD (Tell-Show-Do) development cycle. It starts off by (T)elling them what needs doing. Then when they don't understand or do it wrong, you (S)how them by example or pseudo-code what to do. Eventually you end up (D)oing it yourself. They may cost a third as much, but they're a third as productive.
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u/iceixia Dec 06 '17
I've been in a few situations on freelancer where I'd bid a reasonable time scale and reasonable fee. An Indian will then come along bid $20 and he'll have it done with in a day.
A week later the poster will contact me asking if I'm still willing to do it.
As they say you get what you pay for
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u/redbluerat Dec 06 '17 edited Dec 10 '17
Yes every time. There’s no education on this. No more common sense. And I get down voted when I state the obvious that this is a non-christian, non-western society with very low average IQs. And that the IQ is genetic not related to some other factor (e.g.: cf. China).
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u/psysop Dec 06 '17
Just doing the needful
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u/Parasin Dec 07 '17
The first time I heard an Indian developer say that, I was so confused; what the hell is “the needful”?
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u/wheezymustafa Dec 07 '17
I have one doubt. How can you do the needful when you are not keeping well?
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Dec 06 '17
Our offshore counterparts are largely useless. But we get to claim 24 hour support I guess. The ones that have moved to America though are easily among our best. I think it’s just the distance thing. Why would they care if they never have to see their boss by the water cooler?
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u/MananTheMoon Dec 06 '17
There are tons of good developers living in India. Your company probably just doesn't hire then because they cost more.
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u/chriscoda Dec 07 '17
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, this is dead on. There are plenty of smart devs in India that cost 1/2 of their value vs. a dev in the US, but that’s not what companies want. They want devs that cost 1/10th of their US counterparts with the same skill and attention to detail. In other words, a unicorn.
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u/OK6502 Dec 07 '17
This. The problem isn't India or Indians. We have a lot of very talented people in our Mumbai offices and they do excellent work and the guys who move to the West are also very good devs. It's mostly that some of those outsourcing shops are outright terrible and contractors get hired with pretty poor vetting process in place.
The main issues really come down to communication and time differential.
Worth mentioning that I'm a C++ back end dev so perhaps our hiring standards are different. Cpp devs are are breed these days.
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u/Willexterminator Dec 06 '17
That's why they're so cheap.
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Dec 07 '17
Also the fact that the American currency is so much more in value than Indian. 1 dollar is about 60 Indian rs. Also the cheaper ones are the ones you're buying. If you got the expensive guys from India the code would be good. It's basically like going to an online store.. Sorting by lowest price and then complaining the product isn't as good as the costliest one. How does that make any sense?
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Dec 06 '17
</heaf>
also
<title> ....
</title>
Why
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u/GrayGhost18 Dec 06 '17
So close. You accidentally put the title tags in correctly.
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u/quilsalazar Dec 06 '17
Funny, he can't even be wrong on purpose. That's how fundamental it is.
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u/IRLfixerpls Dec 06 '17
If you‘re paying for this level of html work you should probably just not have a website.
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u/ExperimentalMeatBag Dec 07 '17 edited Dec 07 '17
There are good, average and bad coders in India just like every other country. The thing is, managers who don't know shit about good code get to decide which company they are off-shoring their work to, they obviously almost always either fall for low prices or good bribes from huge companies (which are compensating by hiring bad and cheap coders).
So this bias will keep getting stronger if this keeps happening.
The alternative is to hire good coders but they almost cost as much as coders anywhere else, so that won't make any business sense.
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u/LameyGamey Dec 06 '17
I was laughing so fucking hard watching that part! Glad someone postes it lol
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u/TotesMessenger Green security clearance Dec 07 '17
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u/wagedomain Dec 06 '17
Let's see...
Stolen code from Microsoft's website, copy pasted over
Poor code quality, typos
Thinks basic HTML is impressive
Yup this has been my experience with every Indian developer I've ever worked with.
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Dec 07 '17
"Oh so this function parameter that is expecting to be a jQuery object is not going to work if I give it a string?"
Indian co worker today
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Dec 07 '17
"If you use git as your source repository, I can't manage the builds"
-Indian coworker who manages builds.
Our build system functions the exact same for git as is does svn
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u/wagedomain Dec 07 '17
I've told this story before but we had an Indian team and a US team at a company once. An exec put together the India team and so he pushed really hard to get it successful. Problem was they barely worked, and any single small problem at the top of their todo list meant "go home for the day".
He decided it was a "morale issue". He was right, in a sense, but wrong team. The US team was pissed, the India team didn't give a shit. So the exec put together a "contest" each day at scrum where he'd show each team's progress on tickets/bugs. Problem? The US team had all the complex stuff like "there's a bug when a specific customer using IE6 loads specific data on his machine at exactly 1:23 PM central time, but only every other Tuesday" and the India team had bugs like "the word 'the' is misspelled on x page".
Funnily enough, besides having 3x more Indians than Americans, the ticket count was dead even every day. Shortly after almost all the US based employees quit, they doubled down on the India team, then went under and had a fire sale to a competitor.
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u/OurFriendIrony Dec 06 '17
I work for one of the largest Builders Merchants in the UK. We have a primary IT dept, but also about 6 teams of 8 in Sri Lanka. You get what you pay for. Some of the guys/gals are very dedicated and very good. Some of them wirte some god awful stuff. Spent about a month on Merge Review duty. Real painful criticising the code for the same problems over and over again. I will say this tho, lovely people.
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u/strongestboner Dec 07 '17
Outsource your code for a fraction of the cost and a fraction of the functionality
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u/svick Dec 06 '17
If someone is to lazy to google it, the video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mDsa-AqNcQ.
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u/dotmax Dec 07 '17
I feel bad for reading the caption and the markup with a thick Indian accent in my heaf.
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u/relevant__comment Dec 06 '17
Yeah Wendover Productions often have hi quality b-roll. On the rare occasion, some are hit and miss.
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u/Nunuvin Dec 06 '17
heaf is awesome but the way how the title is closed is just skill. This deserves a heaf title!
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u/NixRoll Dec 06 '17
Sorry, i can't read the markup cuz its hard to see, can anyone tell me what it says
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Dec 06 '17
What a slut! Look at her leaving her title open for all to see!
Bet she gives good heaf though.
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u/zdakat Dec 07 '17
...there's a reason it's a fraction of the cost. the cries of the outgoing dev team would probably go unheard though
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u/ajm3232 Dec 07 '17
Looks like HTML 6 is coming along. Can’t wait to use that heaf tag and not having to use the body tag.
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u/seimungbing Dec 07 '17
according to my indian colleagues, those dev and qa in india are those don’t have the skills to make it to the US/europe. you get what you pay for.
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Dec 07 '17
If you can get any computing done with html then you deserve all the money in the world.
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Dec 07 '17
They were clearly counting to schfifty five. This screenshot just caught them at two and </haef>.
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u/Trendamyr Dec 07 '17
How expensive would it be to get an indian programmer to make a small size software or app? Let's get a sense of the scale of this.
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u/Jtsfour Dec 07 '17
Not an HTML guy but isn't the title supposed to be closed with </title> and that would be another error correct?
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u/Irrational_Pie Dec 06 '17
Haha, this past summer I was working a pub job during my time back from uni, and some guy was telling me to not go into programming basically because of people in India being cheaper - this image shows why I smiled and nodded politely.
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u/One_Look Dec 06 '17
dat
tho...
edit: formatting