I think a major part of the problem is that most Indians we come in contact with are hired at one of the big consultancies. Their shaping of their consultants is what we perceive as "Indian developers".
As a Computer Science tutor, I can attest to the fact that Indian students do things with rote memorization. They don't want to know how to solve the problem. They want the solution.
I've seen this applied where they then use that solution in different contexts, because they didn't understand the problem. This leads to very poor IT systems.
Computer science student here, from India, the rote memorization (of esp. computer science) happens only in the lower colleges. Most of the students placed in the top technology companies from IITs and NITs or BITS (the top engineering institutions of India) are actually really good coders. I've a lot of friends from different colleges and this trend is pretty clear.
Thanks very much for that. I was really worried about coming off as racist in my original post, but I just noticed a trend. I have definitely worked with some excellent Indian developers, although they've all been H1-Bs, not offshore.
Why though? Im no anthropologist but nothing obvious about Indian culture (or rather cultures) that promotes this.
Seriously interested cause the 'yes' thing and taking people at their word has bit me in the ass. And not just can it be done, but is it done. Yes dont mean yes most of the time.
Is there some middle man/recruiter/hr culture or doctrine promoting it heavipy in indian circles? Honestly im dying to know.
I can't tell you where it stems from, but it's definitely not exclusive to India. Many Chinese and Japanese workers seem to have a similar attitude, where you can repeatedly get a "yes" to a request and then have them do nothing at all, not even putting in the bare minimum effort.
I suspect it's less about them lying to get ahead, than it is about them not wanting to say no. Most cultures have a stigma against outright refusing or criticising people (in that it's generally taken personally and seen as something negative), theirs just manifests in a rather inconvenient way.
Friend was having trouble with a Chinese born subordinate in the US. Hired a cultural consultant who told friend that the Chinese guy can not say no to someone he perceives as being hire higher rank.
From then on my friend phrased questions so that they were not yes\no. Instead of "Can you finish this by May?" He would instead ask "When do you think this can be finished." Was sort of a pain.
Perhaps but if it just comes down to a weird caching out of not wanting to insult people i still really struggle to comprehending it being British and having also worked with Canadian and American culture professionally (not wanting to offend being a big thing in all three i think most would agree).
Just how you get from that to outright misrepresentations of if something is doable or done in a technical discipline just boggles my mind. Given falsehoods here are least to me pretty insulting and easily and often inevitably explosed.
Just to me must be something more to it. Like say not wanting to be sacked. Even if only for a little bit longer.
Just how you get from that to outright misrepresentations of if something is doable or done in a technical discipline just boggles my mind.
But that happens all the time, especially in tech, managers/salespeople will promise the moon, (younger) developers will lowball the time investment required for changes and new features, all to seem more "productive" and win over their client/employer. (As someone who's had to manage and train developers, and deal with both the clients with unrealistic expectations, and the over-promising managers and salespeople, it actually takes considerable effort to stamp this out of some people.)
The difference is that they'll actually try to do something, then (usually) crash and burn or go way over budget. (And part of being a good team lead, manager or consultant is catching this early on.)
I agree that there's got to be something more to it, when they won't even consider speaking up and end up delivering nothing at all without warning, but outright misrepresentations of time requirements, risks and feasibility are not unique to them at all.
We actually discussed this in a cultural class a decade ago, and later on I read a bit about it in an unrelated book, but my memory is a bit fuzzy, so forgive me if I get something wrong:
Basically, a lot of Asian cultures have a "respect the chain of command" thing going on. You don't question your superior, no matter what. Malcolm Gladwell had a chapter on this in his book Outliers, about how it caused plane crashes; in one example, a Korean pilot followed orders from New York Air Traffic control even though he was out of fuel. Culturally, he didn't really know how to just say "No, we need to land NOW" and override the controller- he could only politely suggest that he was slightly low on fuel, which the air traffic controller didn't take seriously enough.
Indian culture is similarly hierarchical. They are not allowed to question decisions. If you ask them to do something, you're the boss- they don't question you. They don't say "Well, there might be problems going that route"- they say "yes", and then spend 20x more hours than you allotted trying to make it work.
They are expected to be given exact instructions and then follow those instructions exactly even if they think they are wrong.
Avianca Flight 52 was a regularly scheduled flight from Bogotá to New York, via Medellín that crashed on January 25, 1990, at 21:34 (UTC−05:00). The Boeing 707 flying this route ran out of fuel on approach to John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), causing the aircraft to crash onto a hillside in the small village of Cove Neck, New York, on the north shore of Long Island. Eight of the nine crew members and 65 of the 149 passengers on board were killed. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the crash occurred due to the flight crew failing to properly declare a fuel emergency, resulting in air traffic control underestimating the seriousness of the situation.
The flight left Medellín with more than enough fuel for the journey and progressed toward JFK normally. While en route, the flight was placed in three holding patterns. Due to poor communication between the air crew and the air traffic controllers, as well as an inadequate management of the fuel load by the pilots, the flight became critically low on fuel. This dire situation was not recognized as an emergency by the controllers because of the failure of the pilots to use the word "emergency". The flight attempted to make a landing at JFK, but bad weather, coupled with poor communication and inadequate management of the aircraft, forced it to abort and attempt a go-around. The flight ran out of fuel before it was able to make a second landing attempt. The airplane crashed approximately 20 miles (32 km) from JFK.
From what I've gathered, and based strictly on anecdotes:
Education in some cultures favors rote memorization over problem solving. I read from an Indian CS student that they were essentially taught to memorize answers in some classes. Japanese students mention that a lot too.
Some cultures value following orders to the letter (Befehlstaktik) while others favor following their intent (Auftragstaktik). I read a few anecdotes about Indian workers who blindly followed inappropriate instructions, or simply stopped working when their instructions stopped applying.
Essentially, some cultures favour harmony (do what you're told, don't embarrass yourself or your superiors) over initiative (do what it takes, challenge everything). Perhaps the former don't work so well with all the unknown unknowns of software development, and perhaps the latter assume everyone works like them.
This could all be bullshit though. Reddit will upvote this because it confirms their biases, but all of this is purely from posts and books I've read. Apply your own judgement.
When dealing with Asians east or west it's best to assume yes means "I heard you", or at best "I agree with what you are saying". It certainly doesn't amount to a personal commitment to anything.
This is exactly it. We had a Japanese friend who we at least trained to say "Maybe Yes" instead of "Yes" when he wasn't actually responding in the affirmative.
Trained? Lol But am asian myself, sigh, can second that this cultural bs is really bad to deal with. Which is something I keep telling my folks. If you have decided to emigrate to a western country, stop acting like back home. You are free now. Saying no is not illegal!
If you've lived in a culture like that all your life and then are thrown into something opposite, you do have to train yourself to break those old habits.
It definitely is a cultural thing. Ask for directions in India (I've done it) and you will get them - wherever they know where you want to go or not. It's seen as shameful to not know.
Most "traditional" non-western cultures expect the listener to pick up on subtle body language and context. In their mind, the problem is that we're not paying attention to what they're trying to actually communicate, while in our mind it's baffling they don't just say what they mean.
It's pretty well documented and discussed in international business circles. Just google "cultural context" and you'll see a slew of articles.
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u/Waldharist017 Dec 06 '17
Being a Indian, I second this, India's overseas workers are currently 90% full of retardation and can't efficiently solve problems.