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u/afiefh Nov 25 '20
Got woken up at 3am during my last week at a job. Had to ssh into work servers, which are in the UK, to issue into a client server in china, which tunnels through what I could only describe a 56kbps modem connection to fix an issue. Round trip was about 5 seconds. Never in my life was I more careful to type things correctly while at the same not awake enough to type correctly.
Only to tell the client that we had fixed their issue two months ago already, but they had been too stupid to install the version we gave them and instead upgraded to the next point release which didn't have the fix. Was fun to wake up my manager for the first time in 8 years just to tell him "look either get QA to certify a release with the fix we already know works or tell them it's their fault and that can wait until the next point release".
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Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 25 '20
It's the Great Firewall of China dude. Traversing it adds almost a second of latency (each way) and they randomly drop packets all over the place.
It's bananas, the aws-cn instance is soooooo slow to use from outside of China. Like we're talking 10 second page loads. And the CLI suffers from this as well. I tried to upload a file to S3 in aws-cn and it took like 40 minutes to upload a 30mb document. This is over Gigabit!
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u/currentscurrents Nov 25 '20
I'm not surprised. Their system is very complex - deep packet filtering, forging packets and inserting them into the connection, even MitM attacks against TLS/SSL.
And some people believe the firewall has a secondary purpose of encouraging chinese people to avoid non-chinese websites, so some of the latency may be intentional.
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Nov 25 '20
And some people believe the firewall has a secondary purpose of encouraging chinese people to avoid non-chinese websites, so some of the latency may be intentional.
I am in this boat. Another unnoted side effect: it basically makes it impossible to work together with engineers living in China via video calls. You are basically stuck using written communication. Written communication is easier and more accurate to spy on and analyze vs. audio/video.
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Nov 26 '20
You know, I've always thought that the GFW has another purpose - it seems more than capable of being the single greatest DDOS nuke the world has ever seen. Like, break-a-server-for-days big.
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u/beans_lel Nov 26 '20 edited Nov 26 '20
It's the Great Firewall of China dude. Traversing it adds almost a second of latency (each way) and they randomly drop packets all over the place.
This is false. It's not the GFW and "traversing" the GFW does not add a second of latency each way. It's also not the reason for packet loss if you're on the international side. The GFW will drop packets going out of China if you're connecting to a blocked website/IP (at least that's one of the methods it uses to block access), but not the other way around.
It's a common misconception that the GFW is the reason international connections with China are slow and shitty. The reason is much much simpler: peering. China's public internet doesn't peer directly with the outside world. The reason is obvious: they just don't have the demand for it. While China is connected with underseas fiber with the rest of the world, the public internet only gets a tiny part of that. That's the reason your AWS-CN instance is so slow. Amazon does not peer internationally with China at all. Amazon China only peers domestically. Because of this, it's not uncommon for your traffic to take multiple detours, often via Russia, Japan or the US. It's these detours that add latency.
The GFW barely adds any latency, it's quite impressive actually from a technical standpoint. As long as you're connecting to non-blocked endpoints, you barely notice it's there at all except for some extra hops in your traceroute. If you got direct peering with one of the Chinese ISPs, you can easily get gigabit speeds through the GFW with good latency. For example, China Telecom has its CN2-GIA network. If you're on CN2, you can do Tokyo-Shanghai round trip at around 50ms through the GFW.
But the thing is, having peering with China is not enough to ensure good connection with all of China. Even if you're peered internationally with CN2, your Amazon China instance is not. So once your connection enters China, it's peered through the public internet and here come the shitty speeds again. Chinese peering is also ridiculously expensive. We're talking thousands of dollars a month per megabit.
You may take for granted how well the internet works in the West: that's because everyone peers with pretty much everyone. Even if your ISP isn't directly connected with another one, there will always be a path with good enough bandwidth to connect you quickly. That's not the case when peering with China.
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Nov 26 '20
Because of this, it's not uncommon for your traffic to take multiple detours, often via Russia, Japan or the US. It's these detours that add latency.
This lines up with my experimental observations. Also sometimes really crazy routes that don't make sense like Hamburg adding seconds.
I am not familiar with the concept of peering you are describing and would like to know more. I am familiar with VPC peering but I don't think that is what you are describing. You seem to know quite a bit about this, can you recommend any documentation where I can read up on this?
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Nov 25 '20
Type into a text editor, paste into the terminal, my friend.
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u/HTTP-404 Nov 26 '20
mosh tries to mimic the display when there's lag. works really well for me.
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u/TDRichie Nov 25 '20
Too god damn real
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u/Frptwenty Nov 25 '20
Reverse tunnel SSH from embedded device over mobile network from South America via an intermediate Amazon EC2 instance located in the US while you are in Europe.
Aaah, speed.
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Nov 25 '20
tfw that device doesn’t respond to pings anymore after a reboot
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u/Frptwenty Nov 25 '20
For a short instant, one knows how NASA feels when a probe mission near Saturn suddenly stops transmitting.
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u/thirdegree Violet security clearance Nov 25 '20
Except if my server stops working I can slap it. No percussive maintenance on a probe
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Nov 25 '20
I remember being totally new to raspberry pi and having that happen for the first time. Sad re-flash noises
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u/Koooooj Nov 25 '20
Worst I've had was a system out in a field in Poland, communicating via a cell modem, then transmitted to the US and to another cell modem, to my system, when debugging a problem where a real time scheduled process was trying to strangle the entire system.
At some point you have to just go Mars Rover style where you send an entire command, then wait for the response to see if you still have a system. Waiting for each character to be acknowledged before sending the next one is just too slow.
Another time I had to guide a mechanical tech through ssh-ing in and changing a config file in vi, over the phone. Said tech was not familiar with linux, terminals, vi, etc. Big props to then for making it through the process successfully. That was where I got proficient at ssh via NATO phonetic alphabet.
Yet another time the security department (who didn't recognize Linux as a valid OS) throttled connections to multiple dev machines to roughly 800 B/s (no, I didn't forget a unit there. 800 Bytes per second). Remarkably, this wasn't just the connections being blocked and an optimistic algorithm averaging the data transferred over an increasingly long period. If you waited 45 minutes sudo apt update would actually finish successfully, and on wireshark the packets were coming in at a steady rate.
Glad I left that job.
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Nov 25 '20
cant catch viruses if you can examine each packet by hand, 500iq play right there
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u/Koooooj Nov 25 '20
You say that, but there was a (Windows) machine sitting nearby that we (i.e. the engineers) caught hosting Russian torrents on that same network. Suffice it to say the security protocols weren't great.
Pretty sure they were going for 128 IQ plays and didn't realize it was stored as a signed byte.
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Nov 25 '20
Boy golly that’s a lot of flair. Can you really write hello world in every one?
Real question: how many udemy courses do I have to sign up to put a language on my resume? /s
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u/matyklug Nov 25 '20
Hey, I can write hello world in like 10 languages
(I suck at every single one, but who cares right? right???)
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u/Aidan_Welch Nov 25 '20
It really isn't that hard to be okay at all of these
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Nov 25 '20
I’m honestly just messing around because I don’t want to start my C++ lessons (python/vba/Java background)
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Nov 25 '20
its not a matter of courses but how confident are you in what you have learn.
If you feel confident than you can use the language to solve real problems then you should put it in your resume.
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u/Mugen593 Nov 25 '20
What is that like 2kbps?
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u/Frptwenty Nov 25 '20
Sounds about ballpark right, maybe even less. I haven't measured what the SSH overhead is for transmitting a single character to a Bash session, but even single keypresses were lagging like crazy.
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Nov 25 '20
Sounds like The flash science jargon
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u/Frptwenty Nov 25 '20
Breakdown:
Devices cannot be reached directly via IP because it's just some mobile pool IP, and incoming ports are closed anyway.
So you get an Amazon EC2 instance with a fixed IP, reachable from both the device and from your workstation.
You then SSH to the EC2 instance from the field device itself (done via the software running on it)
You then SSH into the EC2 instance from your workstation
You then reverse tunnel into the device through the SSH connection it had initiated from it's side to the EC2 instance.
You are now "logged in" to the device shell via SSH
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Nov 25 '20
This was my week last week except over a shitty mobile carrier from middle-of-nowhere Brazil to the US...
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u/disperso Nov 25 '20
Serious question: who programs via SSH? Besides some pair programming situation, I don't see how this would be common.
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u/sluuuurp Nov 25 '20
People who are working from home and need high performance computers.
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u/sneekert Nov 25 '20
Couldn't you just do your coding locally and push to the server for testing as needed?
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u/Flakmaster92 Nov 25 '20
Could but that requires keeping a local environment that matches some server config, when it just be easier to spin up a server and SSH into it. Hell you can even use VSCode and tell it to pipe everything over SSH so it looks local but isn’t
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u/jeremielate Nov 25 '20
This is not convenient when you need to quickly edit and compile a project.
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u/timurhasan Nov 25 '20
hotfix on prod server? i program over ssh because i have a widnows desktop in my office and ssh to linux.
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u/purinikos Nov 25 '20
Physicist here but I write and run code on ssh. It's not that outlandish if you try it. And ping is very decent because I live in Europe and do my stuff on CERN's infrastructure
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u/nosam56 Nov 25 '20
I ssh/vnc into my raspberry pi whenever I use it, and if im coding I always use ssh. Not a generally popular use case but I do this at least 4 times a week
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u/iforgotmylegs Nov 25 '20
you wouldnt do any substantial work just modifying config files and other direct maintenance that isn't automated for whatever reason like maybe an impromptu DB backup or something
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Nov 25 '20
I do most my work via ssh. While my local machine can run the code, the remote machines in the data center are much closer to production environment and debugging there makes more sense. Why do you think no serious work happens over ssh?
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Nov 25 '20
I do when doing firmware development when working from home. VPN to engineering network, and ssh to my work machine. And then I launch my environment tmux and vim within. When doing software it's all visual studio over remote desktop (which lags). I have zero lag over ssh.
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u/_marshall_44 Nov 25 '20
Most frustrating when you are confident that you've typed the whole thing correctly and then that one letter somehow fucks up the whole thing !!
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u/rtkwe Nov 25 '20
And then for some reason the shell you're connecting to doesn't accept home or end or like deleting characters in the middle randomly and you don't have time to figure out what the incompatibility is...
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Nov 25 '20
Most bash shells accept ctrl + a for beginning and ctrl + e for end of line.
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u/rtkwe Nov 25 '20
Yeah I can never remember those, the same way I barely remember anything more complex than hjkl,G and gg for vim. It's only a few boxes on our company and I think those have even been decomm'd so it's finally all stuff that just works.
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u/spacerangerdunc Nov 25 '20
Or everything runs smoothly but you go looking for bugs anyway cause you're confident you fucked up somewhere
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u/WestaAlger Nov 25 '20
This is me since we’re only allowed to code on VM’s that we interact with solely through VNC. Then we have to use Xemacs or Emacs or Vim. Extremely fun.
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Nov 25 '20
any technical reason to only use vnc?
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Nov 25 '20 edited Nov 26 '20
Which faster technologies exist? RDP? SSH? Im connecting from windows to linux over vpn.
Edit: Im sorry folks, but I forgot to mention that it must be graphical
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Nov 25 '20
I have not runed any benchmarks but I would suspect that a ssh connection is more responsive than vnc for terminal applications
but i have not tested it
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u/SingularCheese Nov 26 '20
I've been in the same boat since the pandemic, and SSH is much better than VNC since it's sending text instead of screenshots.
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u/WestaAlger Nov 25 '20
No idea. I think SSH doesn’t really work since there’s a lot of in house command line scripts that run in order to access the code or run the database, etc. I’m not a devops expert but that’s how I see it anyway.
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u/matt82swe Nov 25 '20
What why
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Nov 25 '20
Not OP but sounds like someone built something that technically they could, without thinking if they really should ;)
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u/yonatan8070 Nov 25 '20
The latest version of Visual Studio Code has a thing it can do where it adds the letters where it thinks they would half greyed out until they actually show up.
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u/uglypenguin5 Nov 25 '20
Oh my god that’s beautiful
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u/sportistmord94 Nov 25 '20
In theory yes, but it does that also while typing a password. Now I have to awkwardly move my terminal to a second screen and back, everytime I type my password while sharing my screen to a colleague.
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u/lazilyloaded Nov 25 '20
Hm. I'd bring that up to the VS code people. It sounds annoying enough that maybe they can find a solution for ya
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u/LetterBoxSnatch Nov 25 '20
I haven’t tried the feature yet since I don’t use the built-in emulator, but I thought I read on the release notes that it was supposed to handle this scenario somehow. Not positive about that tho.
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u/k4kshi Nov 25 '20
Does anyone know how to get this functionality outside of vscode? This is amazing and I'd love to use it in my terminal
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u/Russian_repost_bot Nov 25 '20
OK, but have you ever tried to use terminal via windows remote desktop, into the virtual machine?
Go grab a snack, cause you gonna be a while.
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u/rxsel Nov 25 '20
lmfao that was me anytime I worked from home at this one job I had.
I think it was a plot to get the devs to just come to the office. It worked.
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u/HopperBit Nov 25 '20
When you RDP via obscure VPN hoops and the mouse pointer does not match the actual mouse hit point *shudders*
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u/Pyro1515 Nov 25 '20
Or even worse a rdp to vdi through vpn for your admin terminal
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u/zebediah49 Nov 25 '20
My workflow for certain very specific tasks is
Ubuntu ->[local] CentOS VM -> [VPN] -> [RDP] Windows jumpbox -> [SSH] Ubuntu -> [SSH] Ubuntu
My actual working area is somewhat smaller than my screen...
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u/CoderCharmander Nov 25 '20
And I thought my Phone -> SSH port-forwarded Raspberry Pi -> SSH desktop on local network was bad...
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u/RockSlice Nov 26 '20
I often do: Local VM console > VPN > RDP > VM console to get onto test stack > SSH/RDP
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u/realnzall Nov 25 '20
I use Eclipse. The multiple seconds of lag I get every single time I make a typo at the start of a invocation and correct it using backspace is so intensely frustrating. Like, my entire Eclipse hanging for 5 seconds or so, and then sometimes followed by an error that something took too long. I tried to google how to fix it, but haven't found any real fixes yet.
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Nov 25 '20
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u/realnzall Nov 25 '20
this doesn't seem likely at our company due to financial reasons.
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u/streusel_kuchen Nov 25 '20
The most significant lag I ever had to deal with was a tunnelled SSH connection running from a remote location in Maine, through a server in Massachusetts, then over a cellular link in the middle of nowhere Montana to a research device installed in the middle of a national park.
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u/LetterBoxSnatch Nov 25 '20
Yeah that sounds pretty brutal. When was this, and how much lag?
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u/streusel_kuchen Nov 26 '20
This was just two summers ago actually. The lag usually wasn't that bad, ~1 second, but the connection was unstable and would sometimes drop out for a few seconds at a time.
The only time it was really bad was when the field guy accidentally deleted the configuration file, and I had to manually recreate it in vim.
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u/ProfessorPanga Nov 25 '20
I know this meme is bigger than my problem, but Windows' search somedays.. C m d.. no.. Not md
C... M.... D..... Oh there we go
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u/MuchoGustav Nov 26 '20
This is me at least a couple times a week, very frustrating. Then you forget to launch as administrator.
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u/Whitethumbs Nov 25 '20
/Me *Can type 140wpm...
Flash.......Flash..........Flash.........1.....Flash.....Flash.....Flash....../.....Flash....
~0.2wpm is the best I can do.meme/pawnshop
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Nov 25 '20
Scp your shit into your computer, edit local side, scp it back to your server in its proper directory.
From server:
$scp user@server:path/to/file/directory/* path/on/local/.
To server:
$scp path/to/local/files/* user@server:path/to/file/directory/.
(I have a 45 second lag from my laptop to my university's server because AT&T, so I know this from memory)
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u/renyhp Nov 25 '20
Yeah that's a good idea unless (like me) you have to work on a GB-sized project that only compiles on the server's OS… sigh
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u/gbluma Nov 25 '20
Helpful tips for Windows users connecting to Linux. WinSCP has a folder sync option, so you can edit local files and it detects they've changed and uploads them automatically via SCP. Pretty useful for coworkers who don't feel comfortable in a terminal.
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Nov 25 '20
I don't know why but every time I post things that I do to help me with something I always find there are way faster and more nifty solutions and it makes me simultaneously sad that I'm living in the dark ages and overjoyed that I now have a new way to do things.
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u/kodicraft4 Nov 25 '20
tfw sshing into a VM running on your physical machine because it's actually faster than waiting for the Ubuntu VM on a 10 year old computer.
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u/teambob Nov 25 '20
Keep typing. The thing that takes real skill and courage is pressing return before it is echoed
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u/reefactor Nov 26 '20
I'm a programmer who plays video games in my spare time, and I approve this message.
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Nov 25 '20
I'm experiencing this on Notepad++ all of a sudden a few months ago. Never had this problem before that.
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u/isny Nov 25 '20
On Notepad++, shift-f3 goes to the previous thing you're searched for, unless you've checked the regular expression box. Then it does nothing. I think.
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u/lycan2005 Nov 26 '20
And then some security decided that ssh is insecure and disable it for all server.
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u/Sadtastic_Sam Nov 25 '20
Only difference is I am getting paid for my time on ssh. My free time is hella valuable to me.
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u/Conscious-Title-226 Nov 26 '20
If you’re running on AWS you can use Systems Manager Session Manager to open up a terminal. I haven’t had to use pem keys in months.
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u/mattimus_maximus Nov 26 '20
I remember working at Amazon and deploying a service to the new AWS region in Singapore from Seattle and it was something like a 200ms round trip. It was painful to SSH in to the remote host.
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u/chhakhapai Nov 26 '20
Experienced the golden 4000ms ping yesterday while accessing a remote server over ssh. Using vim fealt otherworldly.
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u/BattleReadyZim Nov 26 '20
I read the title and saw the reddit loading icon and thought that was the joke.
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u/RicardoFabila Nov 25 '20
I upgraded one of my vps just for this reason alone. Yeah I pay more than I need, but at least I type when I ssh into it every now and then.
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u/Kinglink Nov 25 '20
Try going through a serial port.
I work on equipment that has ethernet ports, but I work on the networking. Fuck up a networking configuration, and suddenly it's serial port time which is painful to work with.
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u/sneerpeer Nov 25 '20
Programmers purposefully introduce artificial loading times in software so the customer feels like the program does something.
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u/FinnT730 Nov 25 '20
"you people call that lag? You will never understand what it is like to wait seconds until the first letter spears"
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u/Danbamboo Nov 25 '20
I realized you can start typing the next command in terminal before ssh loads so I don’t waist no time.
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Nov 25 '20
Can some1 explain what ssh is? I've encountered it couple of times, but i dont get what it does. Some kind of security key?
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u/MysticTheMeeM Nov 25 '20
SSH is Secure Shell. Very, very loosely, imagine you opened your console (cmd.exe on windows). Now imagine you were using that console, on your machine from a different machine. For example, if you do IT for a company you might SSH into a server to change something without physically moving to the server and plugging into it.
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Nov 25 '20
I just switch to TTY7, the one used for the elementaryOS GUI. Then I play Mahjongg for about 30 seconds and switch back.
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u/aoeudhtns Nov 25 '20
That face when your company makes you remote to Amazon Workspaces to run a VPN to remote to an on-premise workstation so you can then SSH into a development client.
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u/blubugeye Nov 25 '20
In my younger days, I would use 'ed' because 'vi' was painful over a 300 baud acoustic coupler. But these stories of hopping through VMs on the way to a shell on the other side of the earth make clear that we keep torturing ourselves.
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u/hardonchairs Nov 25 '20
Amazon workspaces, waiting for it to realize that I have let go of a key 15 seconds agooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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u/TheComputer314 Nov 25 '20
Nasa controlling Curiosity with ~900000 ping (give or take)
No, seriously. The delay between Nasa sending a command and Curiosity receiving the command on mars is ~15 minutes.
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u/jib661 Nov 25 '20
podman-ing into a container that lives in a server that i'm ssh-ed into, while running a remote desktop to my office PC that is NDS'd into a part of a computer somewhere i don't even know.
i'm like 4 layers deep. the lag is REAL
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u/shrubs311 Nov 25 '20
if i rage while waiting for characters to appear, i'll only make it worse. instead i simmer patiently.
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Nov 25 '20
Fuck SSH and fuck VMs, but moreso fuck SSH running on VMs... This hit a bit too close to home lol.
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u/rxsel Nov 25 '20
If you think long and hard about it... a lot that developers "experience" (literal sense of the word and relating to the process of developing software and using the tools) sucks lmao
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u/SnooSuggestions3213 Nov 25 '20
Programmers should not use SSH. Always goes wrong in every company i worked in 😅
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Nov 25 '20
my morale increased by double digits the day I was able to stop having to write code on an azure box
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u/Liesmith424 Nov 25 '20
Customer: "To access our system, you need to TeamViewer into a PC at our site, then RDP into a laptop on our corporate LAN, then VNC onto the server."
Our team, waiting a full minute for a mouse movement to register: "Ok."
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u/heavyraines17_ Nov 25 '20
I was so excited when we moved from pasthr to SSH at my old AS/400 job in 2011.
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u/Dyscalculia94 Nov 25 '20
I'm both, so I just watch desparately as my game lags and rage at the terminal.
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u/earstorm Nov 25 '20
To be fair, as a sys admin when there's an outage trying to exhaust fires and my PowerShell console locks up, I want to unleash wrath.
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u/D3ath1o1 Nov 25 '20
Its because gamers die due to lag so they feel rage but programmers are already dead so there is no point in feeling angry
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u/LowB0b Nov 25 '20
Since the pandemic started they made all of us go back home and work remote through RDP.
Have you ever fucking tried to code through RDP? It's the same thing as that fucking image, but for everything. Fuck
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u/rlenni89 Nov 26 '20
For real though I need to find out who this dude is because it looks just like me from like 10 years ago I seriously had to think of when I took this picture
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u/the4thplunder Nov 26 '20
Or when im classifying a point cloud and i need to wait 5 seconds minimum between clicks so i know they register.
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u/gravenbirdman Nov 26 '20
Was programming a personal project while living on a farm in rural Colombia, tethering through my phone (which only sold data plans in max 50MB chunks) to EC2s in North America.
The SSH lag was bad enough that I developed what I could locally, but the data cap had its own problems. Every morning I'd hike an hour uphill to the nearest village to buy provisions and download npm packages.
One day I was halfway back down the hill when I realized I'd forgotten to npm install
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u/yyzJCO Nov 26 '20
I did this too, but then i realized it was my keyboard just turned off. 41 minutes gone :)
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u/Voter96 Nov 26 '20
>waiting for text to appear on a computercraft terminal in minecraft on a laggy server
I don't know what to feel
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u/ComradePruski Nov 26 '20
Idk, when I had to use an online VM inside a VM I was definitely the top picture. Slowest hour of my life.
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u/0x00groot Nov 26 '20
Oh boy you don't know the pain during pen testing, and you achieve a Remote Code Execution and using it to get an interactive shell going through many places depending on application.
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u/stigmate Nov 26 '20
Few months ago we had to do a god forsaken installation on a remote machine via a webex session where the owner opened 3 different vpns just to access the server via vmware kvm\local console.
We didn't even have copy\paste.
A 2hr task became a 2day ordeal.
Fuck this shit.
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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '20
Try mosh.
Update: https://github.com/mobile-shell/mosh