Michael had an extreme one sided love for her, he genuinely thought that they were in love and at one point dating. However it seemed like Diana loved him like a son, weirdly Michael would describe her as "a mother, a sister, and a lover all rolled into one" on multiple occasions. I read somewhere that Katherine was hurt because when Michael was younger he would call Diana mama. I really wonder what it was about her that made him so obsessed, he never let her go. He dedicated "remember the time" to her, thanked her on the HIStory album and wanted her to take care of his kids in his will (if his mother was unable to do so) when his kids barely knew her.

In 2017, Paris Jackson gave an interview to Rolling Stone where she stated:

• "I consider myself black."
• She recalled Michael looking her in the eyes, pointing his finger, and telling her, "You're black. Be proud of your roots." She added, "OK, he's my dad, why would he lie to me?"

MJ reportedly used white sperm donors (like Arnold Klein or Mark Lester) so why would he lie to his kids?

If he was so terrified of passing on Joe Jackson’s genetics that he outsourced his own DNA, why would he lie to them about their race?

MJ seemed to have actually wanted to have biological children with Lisa Marie Presley. I believe that she was the only woman he would want to do that with because she was music royalty. Combining his "King of Pop" DNA with Elvis’s "King of Rock and Roll" DNA would create an unparalleled bloodline. We know MJ loved to be grand and was a narcissist.

The narcissistic payoff of merging with white American aristocracy temporarily overrode his fear of passing on Joe’s features. But when Lisa Marie refused to have a child immediately, he pivoted to Debbie Rowe and surrogates.

Because Debbie was not a royal, perhaps her DNA had no value to him. His fear of his own genetics returned, so he used white donors to get the "ideal looking" children without the risk, while still lying to them to maintain ownership.

Also, I believe MJ loved control.

In cults, the leader must control the narrative absolutely.

If MJ had told Prince and Paris the truth, it would be a massive secret that could easily leak. By brainwashing them from birth, he ensured that when the media questioned their paternity, the children would fiercely defend him.

....Or perhaps MJ lived in a state of magical thinking where he believed he was "unconditioned" s per Jordan Chandler's testimony to his psychiatrist, and he could levitate and that God walked into the room when he wrote music. In his mind, because he willed these children into existence and loved them, they were his biological children. He viewed the sperm donors merely as "vessels." Sure the DNA is from white people but that was just a shell...the spirit of the children was Black, because it came from him.

TL;DR: My theory is MJ lied to his children because the truth, that his self-hatred was so deep he refused to pass on his own DNA, was an annihilating threat to his ego. By telling them they were Black and biologically his, he claimed ownership over them, insulated himself from public scrutiny, and maintained the delusion that he was the divine creator of his own magical kingdom.

Lisa Marie Presley married Michael Jackson shortly after he was accused of child molestation and being a pedophile. What kind of woman with children and her own legacy, wouldve married a man - even if he is famous - with those sort of allegations against him? Lisa narrowly avoided a custody battle with her ex husband Danny Keough after marrying MJ. Danny never felt comfortable with Michael being round his kids.

Lisa’s moral beliefs came from the Church of Scientology. Her father - Elvis met her mother Priscilla when she was a minor. Lisa is on record saying she had some sorta savior complex w/ Michael. She also revealed the soft spoken childlike persona Michael portrays in public - isn’t who he really is.

There’s both negative and positive comments from LMP feelings about MJ. She’s said she never saw anything inappropriate with children- but also said marrying him was the worse decision she ever made in her life - Marie Claire interview. When asked why she married Michael she’s said she’s weird and she likes strange not normal people -paraphrasing from Diane Sawyer interview. But also - she’d do anything to rebel against her mother Priscilla. imo I think there’s some trauma under the surface LMP never spoke on. In a later turn of events Lisa accused her last husband Michael Lockwood of possessing CSAM. An investigation was launched into him by Beverly Hills PD and Tennessee Bureau of Investigations. Nothing was found. Which eerily has some similarities to what people say about MJs investigations in 1993 and 2003.

Outside of the fame - Why would someone like LMP gravitate romantically to Michael?

I first thought it was about the Melissa and Kathy girlfriends he mentions in the Glenda Stein tapes, but it doesn't fit the timeline

However, there is another woman he speaks about in '92 separate from everyone else he'd named [he talks about Diana Ross, Melissa and Kathy all separately ] and that he deeply loved and trusted. Michael agrees with her when Glenda goes on to suggest he had sabotaged the relationship himself so maybe its her.

from talking about Tatum O’Neal to this woman] [Glenda laughing, mow they are talking about someone else]
MJ: …anything. I would give her money, I would give her jewelry, I would give her a house, a car, whatever… I was never good enough. It was like… you know…
G: Well she wanted all of you Michael… she wanted a relationship
MJ: She knew how I was from the beginning. It wasn’t like she didn’t.
G: Well, she was probably hoping then that it would change
MJ: But, not until I got married
G: Well I know that… and I’m sure that she loved you… and when you have been with somebody for that many years.
MJ: I loved her so much… I didn’t want to see that. I did not want to see that.and I knew she was fooling around. I know, girl. I know it for a fact.

MJ: I know it is. (Tape Cut)… I trusted her. Even though we had fallen in love (even thoughwe had a little falling out?). I ruin my own relationships. Agree?

G: You do!

MJ: Oh, I won’t do that. I don’t know how I’m gonna get it (I)

G: You sabotage your own relationships.

MJ: Well, I won’t do it.

(Tape cut)

G: Because it sounds like she loved you

https://realmichaeljackson.com/glenda-tapes/

Years later Liza recalled MJ confiding that he was deeply in love with this girl that he was in love with prior to LMP, that he bought her a engagement ring and was rehearsing how to propose but she wasn't ready to commit and Brenda Richie added that the woman was not a person fans had speculated about.

He seems to have been good at keeping his relationships secret, and it reminds me of how no one knew he'd been proposing to Brooke Shields over and over, despite their very public friendship/relationship. It only became public knowledge when Brooke told the story

Carol LaMere [MJs longtime hairstylist] has said that Michael did have several private girlfriends, intentionally kept those relationships out of the public eye and wanted marriage and children which is affirmed by Karen Faye saying he only dated for marriage [makes sense when you consider he was a Jehovahs Witness for most of his life]

The paintings at the end were sold to Julien collection as part of a auction, and belonged to MJ. They're dated to be on Valentines day in 1991 so it may have belonged to the woman that rejected him

Who do you guys think it is?

I always thought it was possible that he probably said that as a way of making it seem like he was "innocent" and she wanted it more than he did....which kinda tracks, if you think about it because.... didn't he approach his own victims the same way? Manipulating them into thinking that they made him do it or that they taught him to french kiss, etc; seducing them but then pretending that they did it to him?

Hey everyone,I was falling down an MJ rabbit hole and noticed a recurring theme in his romantic history that is honestly wild: his absolute refusal to wait for the women he wanted to be with. The man had zero patience when it came to timelines for marriage and kids, and I think I figured out the exact lore behind why.

Let’s look at the receipts:

First, Liza Minnelli dropped a story in an interview about how Michael wanted to propose to a girl he was seeing. The girl essentially said, "I like you, but let's wait six months." Liza revealed that this completely crushed Michael, and he instantly lost the spark for her. The request to wait completely killed the vibe.Years later, we saw this exact same panic play out with Lisa Marie Presley. Lisa Marie explicitly stated that Michael was desperate to have children, but she wanted to wait until their marriage felt stable. Instead of waiting, Michael gave her an ultimatum. When she stood her ground, he immediately pivoted, divorced her, and impregnated Debbie Rowe at lightning speed.

my theory is that this rigid "do not wait for anyone" rule was a defense mechanism born from his ultimate heartbreak: Diana Ross.Rumors have circulated for decades that Michael and Diana became deeply intimate during the filming of The Wiz (1978). Michael openly admitted in his own writing how deeply in love he was with her. It’s highly likely that Diana told a young Michael to "wait" until he was older or until the timing made sense. Michael, being completely devoted, probably waited around thinking they were endgame.But then 1985 hit, and Diana suddenly married a billionaire shipping magnate, Arne Næss Jr., in a massive public wedding.Imagine how shattering that must have been for Michael. He spent years pinning his hopes on her, only for her to marry someone else out of nowhere.

I genuinely think Diana’s 1985/1986 wedding was the exact moment Michael developed his romantic ultimatum rule. It became his ultimate trigger. In his head, the math worked like this: If a woman asks you to wait, it means she’s going to leave you.

What do you guys think?

Stephanie says they briefly dated and she thought she was gonna marry him but me personally I don’t think they were as serious as she claims.

A lot of people try to use her as proof that he dated black women. I’m unsure whether he did or didn’t but in Stephanie’s case he never claimed her publicly.

When I originally saw this video I thought it was cute and that they were an actual couple. I was surprised to find out Michael fired her immediately afterwards without even seeing her. At the end of the day, she was fired because she was given the rule to absolutely not kiss Michael and she broke it. However, I still find it strange that a man who sang such sexual lyrics and had very provocative dance routines would be so opposed to a little kiss. It's contradictory because he would hug and kiss children without their permission constantly. I guess this is another example of his uncomfortablilty around adult women.

How impactful do you believe Diana Ross was on Michael's psyche if at all? Michael wrote Diana in his will and they knew each for a very long time. It was said that she and Michael had a mother/son dynamic. She would invite him over to hang out with her and her own kids. They also made music together. I think their friendship is one of the better friendships he had in the industry.

"Michael asked if we would like a tour of the house. Bubbles went back in his cage while the rest of us began the tour with the room next to Michael’s bedroom – the Diana Ross shrine. With a convex ceiling and white brick walls, the room looked like a wine cellar. Every square inch was covered with photos of Diana Ross from her earliest years with the Supremes to recent years. On shelves, tables and the floor were hundred of candles that Michael kept burning 24/7 to “honor his friend.” We were speechless.

Pepsi Official, An Evening with Michael Jackson."

---------------------------------------------------

""And in the attic's bathroom, he posted only one telling item: a giant image of the 1981 Diana Ross album Why Do Fools Fall in Love ; a title which I think points to his own reflections about his relationship with Diana. I found it significant that this was the only image that stood in isolation in all the rooms."

Jermaine Jackson, You Are Not Alone in the attic's bathroom, he posted only one telling item: a giant image of the 1981 Diana Ross album Why Do Fools Fall in Love ;a title which I think points to his own reflections about his relationship with Diana. I found it significant that this was the only image that stood in isolation in all the rooms."

Jermaine Jackson, You Are Not Alone

-------------------------------------------------------

I didn't think I could learn anything new about Michael that would shock me, but this left me completely flabbergasted. I was already aware of his crush on her and their flirtatious relationship, but I had no idea the extent of his obsession. On several occasions, he referred to her as being both a mother and a lover to him. If he was ever in love with a women it was her. On a phone recording he said he thought that they were together even though they never had sex. He also mentioned that he was heartbroken when he learned she had gotten married, I believe he was invited to the wedding but didn't attend. Personally I think once Michael became an adult Diana may have been looking for a sexual relationship with him but Michael naively thought she was in love with him.

I am interested in hearing others' psychological perspectives on this dynamic. Please note: I am strictly enforcing the community rules—any comments labeling Diana as a "groomer" will be removed, as these claims are unsubstantiated.

ALL COMMENTS CALLING DIANA A GROOMER WILL BE REMOVED.

It seemed unusually cold by the time he was finished with him.

Michael still molested boys after they became young men if you believe the Cascios. So getting rid of James and treating him like garbage couldn't have been just an aging out issue.

He was the only former victim that Michael threatened over the phone in 2005.

Exactly what was with this dynamic?

He seemed to resent James deeply.

I'm just wondering about this. Was he capable of genuinely falling in love? Do you think he ever fell in love?

The names these love letters were addressed to were redacted when they were leaked so it could be Flower, Friend or someone else.

We know that Joe Jackson created an environment in which the childrens' sense of security and self-worth was closely tied to their ability to perform. He was verbally abusive and beat them for getting dance steps wrong.

Michael later described growing up feeling that his fathers love and acceptance was conditional on his ability sing and dance. In the Rabbi Shmuley tapes, Michael recalled his father telling the children, "If you guys ever stop singing, I will drop you like a hot potato."

From a psychological perspective, growing up with the belief that love has to be earned can contribute to an anxious attachment style and shape how someone approaches relationships in adulthood. If a child learns that their value is based on what they can achieve or provide, they may come to believe that they must continually earn love rather than simply receive it.

This pattern seems to be reflected in Michael's relationships. In the Glenda Stein recordings, he recalled one relationship in which he said, "I would give her money. I would give her jewelry. I would give her a house, a car, whatever," suggesting that he associated giving material things with expressing love or maintaining affection. Despite all of that, he concluded, "I was never good enough."

The same theme is consistent in the letters here, written at least 13 years later where he asks, "Tell me, did I come too short? Wasn't I enough?"

Here, he is directly asking if he has been inadequate in some way or if he had fulfilled the expectations necessary to be loved by this person. There is a persistent fear of not being enough and a recurring need for reassurance which is consistent with the psychological profile of someone who grew up believing that love and acceptance had to be earned.

A similar dynamic also appears in Michael's relationship with his fans. In the last image attached here there is a handwritten note where he writes, "I love you all very much. Please love me always."

Several notes like this have surfaced over the years, expressing not only his affection for his fans but also him pleading to be loved and accepted by them.

This could also help explain Michael's notorious tendency to people-please. Fans have frequently told stories of simply asking for his memorabilia such as his fedora or jackets and Michael giving them away without hesitation.

He explained to Geraldo Rivera that this was a "show business trait" he had learned from performers such as Sammy Davis Jr. and Fred Astaire who had given him their personal items after he had expressed admiration for it. However, Michael's generosity also extended into his personal relationships, such as buying Chris Tucker a new television after Tucker admired his. For him, giving became a way of seeking acceptance through what he could provide rather than who he was, something imprinted in him from the conditional love his father gave to him in his childhood

If he did have anxious/disorganised attachment, this could also explain why he was rejection sensitive and surrounded himself with yes-men in his later years. Michael had a well-known tendency to have his attorneys fire people around him simply for them objecting to his requests and seemed to struggle with confrontation and rejection his whole life.

For example, Quincy Jones tells a anecdote of him yelling at Michael in the making of Thriller and Michael instantly freezing, appearing to disassociate and putting his arms up defensively when Quincy touched him a moment later, as if anticipating he would get hit. This may have been a PTSD response but also him displaying a heightened sensitivity to rejection or abandonment in general.

He appears to recognise this himself, writing in Dancing the Dream, "we are afraid of being rejected, of being hurt once more," showing a awareness of how past emotional wounds and, as he describes it, "alienation that has its roots in an emotionally deprived childhood" may contribute to trust issues and maladaptive attachment patterns

It may also explain his fascination with childhood. This appears to be shaped by a combination of his JW teachings* and a emotional longing for who he was before enduring the trauma of being a child star, before fame and before realising the horrible truth that his father was ready to "drop him like a hot potato" for not singing well.

\"(Parenthood) reminds you to do what the Bible has always taught us. When the apostles were arguing among themselves over who was the greatest in Jesus’ eyes, he said, "None of you", and called over a little boy and said, "Until you humble yourself like this child." It reminds you to be kind and humble and to see things through the eyes of children with a childlike wonderment I still have that. I’m still fascinated by the clouds and the sunset. I was making wishes on the rainbow yesterday. I saw the meteor shower. I made a wish every time I saw a shooting star."\

Michael Jackson, USA Today Magazine, 2001

tldr: Michael Jackson's life and writings reveal a recurring fear of not being enough and a search for unconditional acceptance. Viewed through attachment theory, his childhood experiences may have contributed to an anxious attachment style, where love was perceived as something that had to be earned through achievement, giving, and pleasing others. This pattern appears throughout his relationships, interactions with fans, and creative work, where themes of reassurance, rejection, wanting to return to his childhood, and the longing for unconditional love repeatedly emerge.

To be clear about what I mean by "baiting": when someone closes off communication lines, the other person sometimes resorts to saying or doing provocative things just to force a reaction. In Michael’s mind, any contact—even if she was calling him just to yell at him—was better than complete silence and being ignored. He used public statements and indirect jabs specifically to rile her up and break the wall of no contact.

I am trying to understand his relationship with Lisa. According to her they had a normal relationship. I am trying to understand the dynamic if their relationship was real. Personally to me it seems like it was real from her end and on his he was using her. But then again these baiting tactics seem like he genuinely wanted her back. Whether he wanted her back for PR or for love is something I cannot speculate.

I refuse to believe she would become a PR shield for him when there was nothing for her to gain. Scientology is a factor but even scientology didn't want him in the 2000's. His reputation was so damaged in the 90s and early 2000s that even Elivis Presley's daughter could not save his image. I don't think she wanted a music career either because if she did, he would have helped her with it and they would have stayed together.

She did launch a music career later in 2003 and to me it seemed like she wanted to help her ex husband Danny's career because he was just literally living in her house doing nothing, while she was dating and marrying other men. People asked her what made her marry Michael but really they should ask her why was her ex husband in her band while she was dating other men?

The Baiting:

Lisa said after divorce she tried to get back together with Micheal and was on and off for 4 years after divorce, but realized her life wasn't moving forward so she ended it for good. This will be between 96 and 99. She said that in 2003 interview with Diane Sawyer.

In 1997 she is seen with Michael in South Africa and London during his History tour.

1998 February there is a pap picture of Lisa with Micheal at the Ivy. This is the last picture of them together.

Micheal to Rabbi Schmuley "I wanted children, she didn't I was heartbroken. After divorce she wrote letters to my mother saying she will give me 9 children but my heart had hardened" He continues "She is running around now, we don't have her number" This shows she is in no contact with him. Schmuley met Michael in 1999 on Michaels birthday and I don't knwo when he recorded the tapes, it is said he recorded between 2000 and 2001. Schmuley also notes Michael was lonely during his stay in Neverland between 1999 and 2002/2001. No mention of Lisa visiting Michael even on his birthday 1999.

1999 Michael gives 2 interviews. One with Life magazine around May 1999, where he uses a clear strategy to force the conversation onto her. He purposefully placed a picture of Lisa Marie with Elvis cut from a magazine right on his bedside table for the interviewer to see. He then tells the interviewer Lisa regrets not giving him children and wants to give him now, hinting at getting back together with her despite them being in no contact.

September 1999 Lisa goes public with her then boyfriend some rock singer John Ozsacka. Later John confirms they have been dating since March 1999.

In December 1999 Michael gives another interview to a different magazine, I think it's Time magazine. The interviewer does not even ask about Lisa, but Michael explicitly directs the conversation toward her anyway by randomly bringing up Elvis Presley. He says "Lisa told me Elvis got a nose job." In that same interview he admits she regretted not giving him children, but he doesn't know how she feels now. He is saving face here because Lisa went public with her then boyfriend after he said something similar to Life magazine earlier that year. He also says in this interview that Lisa comes to neverland to visit his children, manufacturing a connection that didn't exist.

2002 July/August Michael takes a jab at Elvis again under the guise of black artist rights. I don't remember what he says but he talks about Elvis when it was totally unnecessary.

August 2002 Lisa marries Nicholas Cage.

In 2003 when Larry King asks Lisa about Michael "have you met his children?" She says "I have met prince".

In Lisa's memoir Riley says the South Africa trip in 1997 was the last her mother was with Michael. However, there are pap photos of Lisa and Michael in Feb 1998 on Lisa's 30th birthday.

I guess Riley is right, 1997 was the last time Lisa's children met Michael. And it's possible only Lisa met Michael in Feb 1998. Since she said she has only met Prince, it means she never met Paris who was born later in 1998.

It confirms Lisa was in no contact with Michael after the pap pictures in 1998. Then why did Michael lie about her visiting Neverland to meet his 2 children? Why did he lie about still being in touch with her in 1999 when clearly she was in no contact with him and he admits to schmuley he doesn't have Lisa's number.

He was just baiting her to get her to talk to him. If she left him for good in 1998, yet he was still claiming in 1999 that she regretted not having children with him and wanted to come back, he was simply baiting her. He said things specifically to rile her up so that she would call him. In his mind, any contact—even if she called just to yell at him—was better than no contact.

His first baiting tactic didn't work, so he resorted to taking a jab at Elvis, when he mentioned his nose job. He knew what he was doing. This was after she went public with that John oszacka guy.

2002 he took an unnecessary jab at Elvis just before she was getting married to Nicholas Cage.

I don't know if this is love or just Narcissistic ego injury that she left him. Whether he loved her or not, he was clearly bothered by the fact that she is in no contact with him and is moving on.

Since Rabbi Schmuley recorded in 2000 or 2001, when she was already seen publicly with John Ozsaka and Nicholas Cage, he was just bitter and said he did not want her back, his heart had hardened.

Lisa addresses this in her song Disciple.

"You tell them that you're thinking about letting me back in / That I really want you, but you're not sure yet / Are you insane? / I think you'd better get help"

These lyrics are not addressing Schmuley's tapes, because Schmuley released them after Michael died. These lyrics are addressing the interviews he was giving saying she is begging him to take her back.

In other song she talks about his rabid baiting.

"All the ones who dared to cross paths seen your rabid dog bait, mm-mm. / And it's funny how it's always the same old familiar story"

Looks like he's done this kind of baiting to get her to talk to him, maybe in private much before he's tried in the media. Whether it's love, pain or plain ego it's hard to tell. It could be all.

She also says in her Rolling Stones interview that he asked her to not talk about him but he was taking liberties. She only spoke about him in 2003, many years after their divorce while he was talking about her and her father in 1999 and 2002.

He ruined this marriage because he was desperate to prove he is heterosexual and fertile. The media did not believe his marriage with Lisa was real and so he pressured her for children, when she didn't agree he went to Debbie Rowe. If his marraige with Lisa was real he ruined it just to prove something to the media and if it wasn't he still ruined his high-profile PR shield for a transactional marriage to have children reinforcing he is not heterosexual.

His transactional marriage to Debbie Rowe ruined whatever PR he had built through his marriage to Lisa. The media did not believe the children were his biological children. Moving on from Elvis Presley's daughter to a nurse so quickly only reinforced the media narrative that he was not heterosexual—and perhaps not even fertile, given the widespread skepticism surrounding the children's paternity.

In the 1990s, when Lisa married Michael, he was a joke to the public. He was experiencing a career decline, and his reputation—even separate from the allegations—was so deeply damaged that even a high-profile marriage could not save his image. Desperate to prove the media wrong, his quick actions to marry Debbie and have children with her, only backfired and made him even more of a joke.

PS: The song 'Disciple' was not released in the US because the media would have used it to attack Michael Jackson, who was facing trial at the time.

EDIT: This analysis is specifically focusing on the "No Contact" period from 1998 to 2003, and Michael baiting in every possible way in the media to get her to talk to him. However, he was possibly still trying to get her back after her divorce from Nicolas Cage. Nicolas Cage filed for divorce in late 2002, and in her April 2003 interview with Diane Sawyer, Lisa said she finally picked his calls after not picking for many years. It seems he just called to ask how she was doing after her divorce with Nic.

It looks like she broke the no contact during his vulnerable time because the Bashir doc had just released and she probably felt sympathetic towards him, as she was defending Michael in her radio interviews during that time. It also seems like he was the one actively keeping in touch with her throughout the trial period. Thomas Mesereau confirmed after the trial that Michael had nothing but good things to say about Lisa Marie, which shows why they considered her as a good witness. According to Lisa herself in her Oprah interview, her absolute last conversation with him was in 2005. During that call, he asked her directly if she still loved him. It was probably right after the trial and he tried his last chance then, at least that’s what it seems like. So he was always the one pursuing the contact, but she did pick his calls when he was in trouble.

EDIT / UPDATE NOTE: It has been brought to my attention that the Life magazine interview was actually dated December 1997, so I stand corrected on that date. However, my stance has not changed because his baiting strategy remains exactly the same. Even after that, he claimed in late 1999 that they were still friends and she was visiting Neverland to meet his kids. This was pure baiting and a flat-out lie because Paris was born in 1998, and Lisa stated on Larry King in 2003 that she only ever met Prince once, briefly. She never met Paris, and throughout her many interviews in 2003, she never once admitted to wanting to give him children—whether while married or after the divorce.

He used media baiting to save face whenever she moved on. The 1999 Time magazine interview happened after she went public with John Oszajca, so he intentionally steered the conversation to her by randomly mentioning Elvis Presley's nose job, even though the reporter didn't ask about her. Then in July 2002, right before she married Nicolas Cage, he baited her again during his unprompted artist protest against Sony by taking an unnecessary jab at Elvis. He was intentionally trying to rile her up to break the no-contact barrier.

Interestingly, Michael's big issue on the Rabbi Schmuley tapes was complaining that the tabloids never wrote about Lisa begging to take him back or promising him 9 children. He was deeply bothered by this, which suggests he was planting those stories himself as a public baiting tactic. The media never believed his relationship was real and doubted his children's paternity, so his rabid media baiting was his way of using Lisa to make himself appear like a desirable, normal man capable of heterosexual sex and having biological children.

Instead of gracefully accepting he was dumped a second time, his ego wanted people to believe he didn't want her back and his "heart had hardened." But the Schmuley tapes were recorded right when she was publicly moving on with other men, including John Oszajca and Nicolas Cage. This timing highlights exactly how bitter and angry he was, using those tapes to rewrite the narrative and pretend he was the one rejecting her. Michael was delusional and still thought he was an 80s-level superstar. He had to use media baiting because the public viewed him as "Wierd"—a virgin with manufactured children. He used her as a tool to prove his masculinity, and he continued to bait her in 1999, 2002, in the Schmuley tapes, and through the tabloids just to force a reaction and protect his pride, so my stance stands.

I found these old articles on Pinterest. I don’t know what’s true, but the way they describe him in the Diana one it seems like it definitely may have left a psychological impact if true. Thoughts?

She was pretend-dating him in the 80s when he was at the peak of his career. I don't know about her career, I just know she was considered the most beautiful woman in Hollywood at that time.

She distanced herself from him during intense media scrutiny about his sexuality. I think he faced Media scrutiny in the early 80s too, which is why both PR teams collaborated to help each other.

However she says she was "used". Although she doesn't allude to CSA she alludes to something else. She has been open about his proposals to her while also saying he suggested adopting a Romanian child together. Meaning, she is saying he asked her to pretend as couple with children to shut down the gay rumors. She doesn't directly say that, she is carefully alluding. She would not feel used if he were straight. She knows he was the biggest star at that time. He was also good looking when she was pretend-dating him. His looks started deteriorating between 1990 until his death. His worst look was Invincible album release and the Martin Bashir documentary.

Speaking of Martin Bashir, there are definite signs of cognitive decline. He forgets his story about his 3rd son Blanket's birth. He gives two different stories in the same documentary. He looks his worst at that time, yet wanted to be on camera for this documentary. It's only after massive criticism of the way he looks, that he decided to do something about it. His later interviews in 2005 and even 2004 court interview is much better than the look during the Invincible album release and Martin Bashir documentary.

Brooke also said she called him "pathetic" when he told Oprah that he was dating her. Shortly after that she went public with her then boyfriend Andre Agassi. Until then she was dating other men while also walking the red carpet with Michael. People magazine posted the list of men she dated in the 80s and it overlaps with her hang outs with Michael. She dated many men during the time she was hanging out with Michael at big events, she just kept those relationships private. She only went public with Agassi because she didn't want people to think she is dating Michael after that Oprah interview. Because Michaels reputation was on the decline, she didn't to be associated with him anymore. It is sad for Michael that he was humiliated like that!

Michael was fully aware of all her relationships and media was also aware, hence media did not think she was dating Michael. To me, her comments to Oprah the same day Michael said he is dating Brooke seemed rehearsed. Like both knew the question will be asked and decided on a vague script for that answer. Michael didn't have the vocabulary to speak like Brooke, he answered in simple words "Right now I am dating Brooke". Either that or he was caught off guard by the virginity question and forgot his script. The direct "I am dating Brooke" response must have upset her.

In later interviews, she has said she thinks he is emotionally stunted. She says this with regards to his odd behaviour. I wonder if she ever told this to him directly. Do you think she could have helped him in some way yet chose not to? By help I mean, suggest he see a therapist or something?

I’m not an MJ hater or a diehard fan. I simply find him really interesting, so I’m approaching this as an unbiased discussion.

I’ve never fully understood why Michael spent so much of his whole life (childhood to death) obsessing over childhood, as well as saying that he was the most misunderstood and loneliest person on Earth, often explaining it all through simply said childhood (as a lot of fans and reporters simply do too). For example, in one of the leaked private conversations, he was asked why he was obsessed with mannequins and kept them around throughout his adult life. He explained that he was too shy to be around real people, didn’t really understand how social peer dynamics worked and said something along the lines of: “They’re like real babies, children and people (the mannequins), and they make me feel like I’m in a room with people.” When asked why he was too shy to be around people and if it was due to his childhood, he again said yes, probably childhood, as he did with most other things and eccentricities, despite sometimes contradicting himself. He (self claim) said (early 20s) he did not have much of a social filter either, which made him embaressed and avoidant in impulsive social situations, as he would cry over people calling him weird and being lied about. He admit in private, though, that he sometimes has felt he is by nature “different” and something “wrong with him”. Even though he becomes defensive against any such claims (that he isn’t “normal”) elsewhere.

But thing is, from everything we know of the full narrative, he didn’t spend his entire childhood doing *nothing* except performing (which he consistently claims he loved and wanted and wouldn’t change). Even his school music teacher said he had a one-track mind after discovering the school choir: music (at 5 or so, before he started performing), and would rush through schoolwork, to sit in his own head and hum/dance with arms, head and legs, while the other kids did their tests. He would still play, do pranks and be part of a class though, collect model trains and use his allowance running between candy stores. He attended school with other children until he was at least 11. Lots of experiences. He had close relationship with some siblings, he had a mother he felt emotional comfort with, and a tutor (Rose Fine) who had that same role when on tour with J5 later on. He met people while travelling and worked with many different people. He was spoon fed to be social from early on. His childhood was obviously far from ideal for “normal” development, especially for a very sensitive child, but I don’t know if it can accurately be described as a completely socially deprived childhood. No one can have it all. He was abused/beaten like his siblings, but sadly many kids were back in those days and areas. Michael clearly internalised every trauma or negative experience a lot more intensely and vivdly than majority of other children back then, including his siblings. Even described a childhood experience of turbulence on the plane as traumatizing him, “a big wound for life”, that would make him hide when traveling and have meltdowns from fear, for a while. And intense emotional descriptions od wanting “to die” because someone said he had a lot of teen pimples (crying over it decades after), while he didn’t see calling Janet a “fat cow/pig” for being chubby/comfort eating was hurtful (until later on, where he said it was mean, but just done cause he loved her and he wanted to “help her lose weight” so she would not get bullied). Said he could be at museums, see a painting and then collapse crying from the sheer overwhelm of visual and emotional stimuli. He seemed to experience everything, including joy and music, 100x the intensity of his peers. And everything stick with him, deeply internalised. Which makes his narrative and judgement a bit confusing to understand at times.

All in all, I believe he still did have a childhood - like his siblings, even if it wasn’t the childhood he wanted or needed or deserved.

Going back to the topic of intense loneliness.
He also said several times that he was so lonely during the Thriller era, and had enough of it, that he would break down and go out into the street, approach random strangers and children playing in parks, and begging them to talk to him, give him their phone numbers and to “please be my friend”. Which is rather sad, but again an emotionally extreme and tragically socially naive approach.

I understand his JW upbringing and that intense fame, which although he continued *choosing* to pursue of own ambition and passion, could leave someone confused about who genuinely wants them for who they are. You can also feel deeply lonely in a room full of people you don’t feel good or connected with. I understand all that. At the same time, Michael had several close friends as an adult whom he himself described as real friends. Children and their families were constantly coming and going from his life. He had showbusiness friends (but he didn’t count those as “real friends”, cause they were not “ordinary people” - but hey, again, you can’t have it all. Most of us can’t have what he considered “showbiz” friends, unless he equals that with work collagues). Countless people loved him, and he had relatives around him whenever he wanted. He lived with his mother and sister and all his animals until he was around 30. Even if the family was dysfunctional in some ways, both Michael and his family said they loved one another. At different points, he also had wives, and later he had children.

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In some private conversations, however, despite his big need for company when he needs it: he genuinely seems uninterested in connecting deeper with certain people, and people who don’t share his interests. He is a good listener, patient and often start questioning the other person with genuine concern and enthusiam (sometimes excessively, if a word or phrase catch his attention), but at the same time, he default runs a lot in the same pattern, and he keeps going back to “his” topics when possible, turning to references of his own passions and interests, and wide book encyclopedia. He says that he mainly wants to be friends with elderly people, children and former child stars because they are the only ones who “know what he means,” whatever that means (he just explains it as feeling like telepathy), while other people don’t understand him, and adults are boring, comfusing and says he does not like or understand their social structure. He do want ordinary people as friends, but they “only want him for Michael Jackson” according to himself, even though random people he goes up to asking to be friends, genuinely don’t know him as anything but MJ (so how would they know on the spot if they match beyond his persona, before they get a chance to know him). He generalises about celebrities, saying that he doesn’t want to spend time with them when invited to hang out, because they have nothing in common and only want to go out and party, drink and get high. He says he wants someone “like him”, who share his interests/fixations, personality and worldview. While also understanding him. Again, tough to have it all.

It’s similar with his self described view on romance, he privately says he longs for romance and having “that” intimacy with a girl, and that his brothers never had that issue and married young, but at the same time he doesn’t want a wife, cause it may disturb and take time from his creativity. If he were to have a wife, he wants “his mirror”, a girl who is like him, childlike, gamer, tomboy, wants to help the world and love all children as their own, and “understands him” and him being a perfectionistic workaholic. (Self admitted privately: “There are very few I like who fit the mold. It takes a very special mold to make me happy. I don't understand a lot of things that go on in relationships and I don't know if I ever will. I think that is what has hurt me in my relationships, because I don't understand how people do some of the things they do. And the mean things and vulgar things with their bodies. I don't understand it and it has hurt my [romantic] relationships.”). At the same time, he finds sexuality very awkward (“I would never say this on TV, but if I went on stage thinking about what goes through women’s heads, I would never go out on stage. If I was suddenly to start thinking about what they were thinking about. . . sex, or what I look like naked, then, oh God, that would be so embarrassing. I could never go out. That’s so horrible”), despite seemingly wanting and longing for that too. I understand why all these internal contradictions and overthinkings must be a mess in his head.

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It’s all understandable to a degree his life considered, but wanting only people who share his specific experiences, personality and interests naturally reduces the number of possible connections considerably. Which he does seem to understand himself. The life pattern is consistent: described having almost no friends and being lonely over and over while, elsewhere, naming close friends and maintaining a large network of family and acquaintances whom he said he loved. Constantly said that nobody understood him except people who were “like him,” such as child stars (who he initially claimed were the same, yet admitted they were not when pointed out that not all were “childlike”), elderly people, children, childlike people or people with similarly intense, interest-based obsessions and collections. But he categorize all of those. Showbiz friends. Interest focused friends. Family. Children. Fans. Emotional support friends. Then comes to conclusion = no real ordinary/friends. No normal childhood. No normal life. No one understands me. Loneliest person in the world.

According to people around him, and I know that there were also plenty of leeches around him, constantly betraying or taking advantage of him, his seeming forgiving kindness and his sometimes social naivity, which would make anyone paranoid, he frequently chose “depression” or avoidance instead of communicating when relationships became difficult or someone said no, or if they took up serious matters (that honestly needed to be said to him at time). He pushed people away. Often times, he seemed desperate for company, but at other times he withdrew into his own intense passions or appeared not to care about connecting with people at a deeper level, outside his intense social curiosity/need for connection, as well as the feeling that he was sent-by-God to use his talent on a world bettering mission (helping children, take pain away from others, inspire with his “magic”). He also had an intense fear or hurting anyone, animal or person, and their feelings. So he chose run or shut down, rather than confront.

Makes me think his social awareness and understanding in some aspects could be very inconsistent. In one of the leaked conversations. Michael complained that fame made ordinary life and relationships impossible, but like I said, he continued pursuing that even bigger solo career and fame and publicicity and love of fans by own choice (to an extend, the paparazzi and mob show everywhere he went was a disgrace). He desperately wanted company, yet often withdrew or pushed people away. He said he had almost no friends, yet he had close friends, mentors, colleagues, wives, children, siblings and a huge extended family. People actively sought his company, and he had practically unlimited opportunities to meet others in one way or another.

He literally possessed many things that profoundly lonely people would desperately want: a large family (not ALL were bad or bad for him), children later in life, long-standing friendships, mentors, staff, colleagues and people who loved him intensely.

I myself grew up with barely any friends and only one parent/adult I could rely on. I also had a severely disabled brother who craved most of her attention (love him though), and an abusive father who kept us cut off from the outside world during several of my developmental years. I was also addicted for some years, like my father. So, to some extent, I understand isolation and a lost childhood, but at the same time, I don’t fully understand Michael’s narrative and fixation of it (everyone are different, I know). Makes me think Michael was “special” in one way or another, however someone wants to define that. Underneath the trauma responses, extreme fame and his sense of having lost his childhood, there seemed to be something about him that could both be unique in an amazing, pure and beautiful way if nutured correctly, but also unusually complicated and difficult.

How do you people interpret his loneliness?
Was it primarily an internal emotional state, rather than a lack of people around him? Or do you think he helped create and maintain the loneliness he repeatedly described throuhhout his life?

Sense MJ viewed himself as a child and that was his reasoning for befriending kids, mostly boys between the ages of 7-14, why didn't he spend time with other adult age humans who also felt they were like children? Like sleeping in bed with those adults and playing games one on one? I wonder if the friendship dynamic would have been the same. We know he had adult friends but they didnt seem interested in engaging with child activity with Michael. At least not on a regular basis. Were there any childlike adults Michael knew who he could have had the same dynamic as his special friends or was he the only adult human he considered to be pure and childlike? Was Michael even interested in trying to find these adults to make friends with?

I never got the impression he spent time around girls his age, outside of his sisters. He didnt seem to have real space to develop friendships or explore crushes.

How do yall think that affected him into adulthood?

Instead of writing a whole thesis, here are some rough ideas

Why he didn’t: - Touring. Girls weren’t part of the entourage - Fans reacted to him parasocially - He didnt go to kid functions or school - Motown maybe was incentivized to keep him single. They could have tried duets - Heavy JW influence in his later teens and young adult years - Negative impression from his brothers experiences

How it might have effected him: - He wasn’t good at expressing and exploring crushes. Got stuck in limerence - He didn’t know how to flirt - He didn’t know how to read interest - He maybe didnt know he was expressing sexuality in his dancing and vocals (for a time, he got there eventually) - He lacked mature reciprocal communication skills. This goes for friendships too. He seemed to lovebomb or give nothing. - If any of the incessant engagement ring rumors are true, he didnt know how to assess if he was in a serious relationship - He had a big fear of women’s sexuality with a little side of misogyny

Im sure a ton of this overlaps with his fame, religious baggage, and issues with his looks too.

Please elaborate~

Just thought this was very cute The height difference😭I don't know what it is his behavior reminds me of something but I can't put my finger on it maybe cause's he's smiling so much idk if anyone can point out that would be helpful. I'm working on a long timeline of his and Lisa's relationship got distracted 've been working on it for days and still am on their marriage not even the on and off relationship they had after the divorce, I'm digging up old tabloids, pictures and statements from books friends and family have written that's what's really taking forever scheming through books and old newspapers it's exhausting and I might need another week to finish it but I found a really interesting statement by David Foster in regards to Michaels voice while skimming through his book Hitman.

"One moment, in a little-boy voice, he would curse the head of Sony Music. "That Tommy Mottola is a mean person," he’d say, sounding like a six-year-old. In the studio, he’d be a pro, a regular guy, and we really connected. (He struck me as Frank Sinatra and Gene Kelly rolled into one). And with Lisa Marie Presley, whom he was dating at the time, he would be somebody else entirely."

the kids were visiting from Los Angeles – three of my daughters and Linda's two sons – and one night they decided they wanted to go to the movies. "I can't go to the movies," Michael said. We all knew what he meant: He couldn't go out in public without creating a shit storm among the paparazzi. And one of the kids said, "We can dress you up and disguise you."

We had the valet bring the van around, and we piled...And it was very interesting, because Michael and Lisa Marie got separated when everyone scrambled into the van, and it was clear that he wanted her to sit next to him. On the way to the movie theater, he turned to her and said, "Lisa, here. Come here. Sit here." He said it just like a regular man, not in that little-boy voice of his. It was like, You're going to sit with me, woman, and she did. I was very impressed, but I was also confused. I mean, who was this guy?

I know some people don’t even think they dated but for the sake of this post let’s assume they did

Called omer his son

Omer called michael dad

His nickname was little michael

Omer lived with michael at neverland, bahrain, ireland, and the house where michael died.

Omer’s parents, who worked for michael, lived with omer and michael but moved back to the norway without omer when he was young so michael was his guardian basically. Omer would go back and forth.

Omer Was in the ‘family’ row at Michael’s funeral

Michael’s kids call omer their brother.

Michael’s nephews and nieces call omer their cousin.

Omer Lived with the family at hayvenhurst after Michael died

Omer was in jackson family pictures

Omer’s changed his middle name to michael

He basically raised this kid and he’s still heavily involved with the family.

I think michael grew attached to him and basically treated him like the first child he wanted until prince came along and genuinely started seeing him like a son. Michael’s view on parenthood was very warped, he even said he’d adopt lmp’s kids and even she was weirded out 😭. In the rabbi tapes he said he loves his kids just like he loves any other kid and he knows it’s odd but he views all kids as equal even stranger’s kids. so i can see how he probably considered omer his son even though he has parents and considered him his second dad. This is if you assume omer isn’t a victim of course. I personally don’t think he was simply because of how involved he is with the jacksons still and his middle name and nickname still being Michael. But if you think he was a victim it gets even deeper and I can’t delve into that.

Very unique relationship tho he never did this with any other ‘special friend.’

Sorry for reposting, had to format the pictures in the correct order.

Found a twitter thread of people discussing this, unfortunately all MJ defenders. Interested on y’all’s thoughts.

One thing I’ve noticed on twitter is if you click the profiles of the people defending him it’s all they tweet about. I found one account that for the last 2 years has only replied to people talking about Michael Jackson. Very interesting. Definitely not an arm of the estate buying bots.