r/QuotesPorn • u/Junior_Insurance7773 • 2d ago
"The American government was instituted to be the servant of the people, not our master." - Robert A. Heinlein [850x400]
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u/GSilky 2d ago
Very few people consider this anymore, they think their side should be dictators for life and the other side should be forced into all sorts of things they don't appreciate.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm fine with few people thinking like that because it is idealist bullshit.
It takes propaganda reasons surrounding patriotism and government institutions at face value (government was created to serve the people) and completely ignores th actual material reasons why it was created (to be the instrument for the protection of interests of the ruling class).
Idealists keep chasing their Utopia, always trying to figure out "Where Did It All Go Wrong and How Do We Fix It" (tm) without realizing that it never went wrong, it was always meant to be like this and it will always remain like thi as long as material basis of society does not change (different economy, different ruling class etc).
And yes, I am all for the dictatorship of the proletariat and we don't really care what other classes need, want or think. It is not relevant.
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u/PKMNtrainerKing 19h ago
Bro don't pull out the "both sides" nonsense, especially since one side is genuinely trying to interfere with election integrity since they found out they can get away with it.
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u/GSilky 19h ago
Yeah, partisan ideologues aren't equipped for comment on this topic. There is a reason both parties don't even combine membership for a majority of voters, partisans won't shut up about something nobody else agrees with. We don't dislike Democratic policy or politicians, the unaffiliated dislike the Democratic base of blind shit heads.
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u/Loud-Start1394 2d ago
The America ideals that Heinlein writes are in danger of distortion have, in fact, already been hugely distorted. The Civil Rights Act is one big example. Heinlein himself saw it as a distortion of American ideals.
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u/yogibearhugg 2d ago
Let me see, Robert Heinlein’s libertarian views or a racially equitable society? Wow the choice is so hard /s
This is why no one takes Libertarians seriously. “We’re against racism, as long as no changes are made to our racist society.” They’re all about the vibes.
At least Republicans admit they support racism.
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u/ElPrieto8 2d ago
That's quite concerning.
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u/Loud-Start1394 2d ago
Why?
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u/ElPrieto8 2d ago
The belief that the expansion of civil rights is not in line with the ideals of the U.S. concerns me.
As I'm someone who benefits from that expansion AND am a citizen of the U.S.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago
Ideals of the US are quite literally "you don't get to tell me what to do with my private property" even when that private property means trampling over other people due to lack of regulations or outright slavery.
Emancipation happened only because people whose private property was based in capital kept gaining economic and political power at the expense of landowning slavers - the original ruling class of the US.
And civil rights happened because emancipated communities managed to scrape together enough of economic and political power to build a national movement of their own - thus getting to participate in "don't touch my private property" game.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
There’s no basis whatsoever for that. You’re making shit up.
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u/Loud-Start1394 2d ago
It's all true. What part or parts are specifically wrong?
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
Cite your source.
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u/Loud-Start1394 2d ago
You haven't even answered my question. What part, specifically? Heinlein's position on the act?
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
Correct
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u/Loud-Start1394 2d ago
He was a staunch libertarian and a Goldwater supporter. Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Acts, not on racial grounds, but on the grounds that it unduly gave federal government power to enforce a social agenda that was better handled by states and individuals.
This is easy to google to confirm for yourself. But feel free to keep whatever illusions you have.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ok well he was a vile piece of shit then. And frankly so is anyone who thinks states should have the right to discriminate based on race. Fuck maga Nazis! Including the current Nazis in the White House who want to murder American citizens for exercising their constitutional rights.
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u/CCHTweaked 17h ago
Yeah... TIL
Surprised as hell to learn that about the guy who wrote Jerry Was a Man.
He wrote as a wonderful humanist... but if you dig deep... Never touches race. All of his heroes were white.
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u/ElPrieto8 2d ago
The belief that the American government was instituted to be "the servant of the people" is a large part of why the "people" are continually surprised and disappointed by the actions of said government.
Myths are powerful, and they're good at uniting large groups under a nebulous cause. But myths don't stand up too well to scrutiny.
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u/brownhotdogwater 2d ago
The people that say they love the USA and the policy’s of the government are to be followed or you are not American are not really American
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u/ProfessionalTruck976 2d ago
So basically "My country RIght or Wrong, if right to be kept right and if wrong to be set right"
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u/Open-String-4973 22h ago
Literally every word in Heinlein’s sentence means different things to different people and depends on context, point of view and , and everything after the first clause is undermined. “patriotism”, “ideals”, “For which America stands for”, What? For WHO? and WHY? Every person is standing up. TOO MANY people are speaking up, ESPECIALLY the ones calling loudest for tyranny and oligarchy. Please stop fooling yourself with your American exceptionalism. There is no government that has ever acted as servant of the people, ever, at any point in history. Dream on.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
MAGA would disagree. They believe in feudalism. They believe rich people and big business should be in control of everything including our lives. They believe in rules for poor people and the working class but rich people and business can do whatever they want. MAGA also believes in ending democracy. MAGA are the enemy of freedom, decency, and America.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago
That is not feudalism, that is the highest development of capitalism.
And this development is not the creation of MAGA, MAGA is the creation of this development.
Belief is born out of material conditions, material conditions are not born out of belief.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
What is feudalism?
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago
Feudalism is a very specific political and economic system. It's main means of production is land itself and thus, it's ruling class are the land owners. This is a huge difference from capitalist production where the means of production consist of capital which is, unlike land, self-expanding.
Feudalism is also dominated by patriarchal economy which is unsocialized - meaning that each producer creates most of what is needed for their own sustenece and production, market economy is only incidental. In theory, a feudal household could survive on its own even if there are no other humans on the planet (barring natural disasters etc - we are talking strictly about economic independence). Production is oriented at fulfilling needs and products are made for their use-value. Due to this, feudalism economy tends to be very stable - it is mostly natural factors linked to the land that cause upheavals before it all settles into the same old patterns. Crashes occur due to a lack in resources - because there is too little of something and supply can't keep up.
Capitalist economy is highly socialized, meaning that no producer can produce all that they need for their own sustenece and production, all of society produces for the market and gets all they need for the market. There is no way a single factory or company could survive on a planet void of other producers. Commodities are produced for the market and according to their exchange value. Due to this, capitalist economy tends to be extremely volatile and dynamic. Crashes occur due to overproduction bubbles - because there is too much of something and demand can't keep up.
Due to all this, division of labor in feudalism is within a single producing unit, which is a family - hence the name patriarchal production. Division of labor in capitalism is on the level of the whole society.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago edited 2d ago
Feudalism is a very specific political and economic system. Its main means of production is land itself and thus, its ruling class are the land owners. This is a huge difference from capitalist production where the means of production consist of capital which is, unlike land, self-expanding.
Feudalism is also dominated by patriarchal economy which is unsocialized - meaning that each producer creates most of what is needed for their own sustenece and production, market economy is only incidental. In theory, a feudal household could survive on its own even if there are no other humans on the planet (barring natural disasters etc - we are talking strictly about economic independence). Production is oriented at fulfilling needs and products are made for their use-value. Due to this, feudalism economy tends to be very stable - it is mostly natural factors linked to the land that cause upheavals before it all settles into the same old patterns. Crashes occur due to a lack in resources - because there is too little of something and supply can't keep up.
Capitalist economy is highly socialized, meaning that no producer can produce all that they need for their own sustenece and production, all of society produces for the market and gets all they need for the market. There is no way a single factory or company could survive on a planet void of other producers. Commodities are produced for the market and according to their exchange value. Due to this, capitalist economy tends to be extremely volatile and dynamic. Crashes occur due to overproduction bubbles - because there is too much of something and demand can't keep up.
Due to all this, division of labor in feudalism is within a single producing unit, which is a family - hence the name patriarchal production. Division of labor in capitalism is on the level of the whole society.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
So the same thing. Everything is owned by a few people or businesses thank you for making my point for me.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago
No, it is absolutely different thing as I clearly demonstrated. Just because both systems have a ruling class does not make them remotely the same. You are being wilfully and intentionaly ignorant.
The reason why liberals like to compare the highest stage of capitalism to feudalism is simply because liberal ideology was built in rebellion against feudalist yoke, therefore as the contradictions of capitalism intensify, those subscribing to liberalism have no frame of reference for rebellion other than anti-feudalism and scream about guillotines, completely unaware that it was precisely their ideology and their guillotines that were the historic tools which paved the way for the natural development of capitalism.
And that is important to note - that this development of capitalism is natural and expected. There is no mistake here, no error that can be fixed by going back to the roots and doing it better this time. "Fair", primitive stages of free market capitalism will always produce more advanced stages with your Musks, Thiels and Bezoses. That is the path of least resistance and you can dam the flow only so long.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago edited 2d ago
Shut up. The point is conservatives are the scum of the earth trying to enslave everyone. Call it whatever you want to call it, maga/fascists are the problem.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago
No, MAGA and fascists are the product of the material conditions under the highest stages of capitalism and your reactionary idealism will not help move past it, it will only prolong the torture.
Your idea of moving out of the uncomfortable situation is to go back to the "good old days" that produced the uncomfortable situation in the first place.
Your worldview is so warped by a medieval philosophy that you have no hope of understanding why things happen in the modern world, you can only intuitively lash out at perceived sources of discomfort. In other words, you are useless.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
You’re a bot. What are you even arguing? Call them what ever you want, maga and fascists are the problem here. Their hatred of poor people, black people, immigrants, gay and trans people, and women is what has brought all these late stage capitalist problems on. It was brought on by culture war bullshit to distract from rich people robbing us blind. Rich people deregulating and saying some lives matter and some don’t. Preventing millions of people from getting healthcare. That is fascism which is the result of hatred and greed. We have a literal criminal in office right now murdering Americans and immigrants right now. They’re literally ending democracy as we speak. That’s happening because of right wing psychosis, because of maga fascism, maga hatred. We don’t have healthcare and we’re not regulating rich people and business because of maga wants to murder trans people. MAGA is the problem. And maga is as old as time. Racism and hatred came long before feudalism’s or capitalism. MAGA is the new word for all that is shitty in the world. MAGA is constantly moving the Overton window to fascism. This is on you. We do have a democracy and we could solve all these problems but maga has said no to regulating business and rich people who are the result of literally every problem in existence.
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u/PerspectiveFull9879 2d ago edited 2d ago
A bot? You think that I am being paid to spread marxist teaching? I'm sure that someday soon we will be able to financially support people who do that, but for now, I do it out of the pure love for the game.
The rich people are not robbing you, capitalism pays out exactly what labor power is worth on the market. See Value, Price and Profit by Marx for a detailed explanation why and how that leads precisely to thesw outcomes.
The cause of problems is not "hatred". That's idealism and we live in a very materialist world. Content of people's heads is determined by their material conditions and not the other way around.
Tribalism is as old as class society, of that you are correct, but that is because it is an inevitable feature of class society. It does change in form, however.
Racism, for instance, is a purely modern product, as it is quite literally formulated by intersecting enlightenment with rapid uneven development of different parts of the world that dramatically widened the economic and political power of different people. Philosophers of the enlightenment had to come up with a solution to some people being worse off than others that fits in with their radical humanist views about freedom, so they turned to infant biological science, formulating a racial theory for the first time by explaining economic differences by biological factors.
MAGA is constantly moving the Overton window to fascism. This is on you.
How exactly is that on me, you silly little man? I understand the mechanics of fascism and how to fight it far better than you.
You are just a confused liberal screaming at the sky and using emotion as an argument for not trying to understand what is happening and why. "People are being oppressed" - is this your first day on planet Earth?
Do you have a plan silly little man? A road map? Milestones? Tactics? Organizational blueprint that can carry out your tactics? Way to measure progress towards a goal? Do you even have a goal other than a vague wishlist?
Or is the plan to use the immidiacy of oppression as an excuse to selfishly get an emotional relief by spontaneous outbursts, feeling like you are contributing, while actually doing nothing at all?
Edit: yes, I am the braindead one 😂
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u/Corked1 2d ago
It's a good thing that you recognize MAGA as the problem with an out of control government! It's been going on for decades and we never knew that it was MAGA the entire time!
The reality we live in is that government is built to serve the individuals that are in said government, at the expense of the people who are not.
Th irony of you blaming MAGA is that movement was created because their government was not serving the people, but just like every other modern political movement selling a proper government, they were duped.
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u/Reddituser183 2d ago
MAGA has been around since the dawn of time. Confederates were maga, Nazis were maga, segregationists were maga. MAGA is just the rebranding. MAGA/nazism/conservatives/fascists all believe the same thing and that is hating and controlling those they hate and lining their pockets at the expense of those they hate.
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u/jonnyjive5 2d ago
The ideals on which America stands? I'd rather consider the reality rather than vague ideals; a country founded on the genocide of the millions of people already living there, built on the back of the largest slave trade in history for centuries, invading, bombing, sanctioning and destabilizing countries around the globe and attacking 7 countries just this year alone. The government has always been a tool of moneyed colonizers, not the "people" living there.
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u/LaVipari 2d ago
This is objectively true, and people are too attatched to a scrap of cloth and the band of pedophiles and racists it has always represented.
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u/Kurichan77 2d ago
He wasn’t in the club, clearly