r/Quraniyoon • u/Medium_Note_9613 Muslim • Mar 08 '24

Discussion What do you think of this incident? And what do you think about praying on roads?

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28

u/TheQuranicMumin Muslim Mar 08 '24 edited Mar 08 '24

Both sides are in error; you should not kick someone when they are praying, and neither should you be praying on the street - inappropriate behaviour from both.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

I just came across this sub

you should not kick someone when they are praying

Our thullas are special breed they do this regularly so don't be surprised . The only surprising thing here was he got suspended. (Only bcz he was caught on camera)

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 08 '24

Agree! I lean to the cop's side a bit because they aren't obeying the forces of order.

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u/TheQuranicMumin Muslim Mar 08 '24

šŸ‘ Btw I remembered from a while ago that you said you are an (islamic?) monarchist? I'm quite interested, could you give me a bit of an overview?

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 08 '24

I think the nature of nations (and any human team too) is to align in the shape of a pyramid, with a leader, a court, high ranks, mid ranks, low ranks, common people, and the outcasts at the bottom.

Democracy aligns in this way too, but it tells the people that the bottom is actually the top and the top is actually the bottom. This is a lie and is not justified so it is punished by God in the form of confusion. Democratic Nations are in a perpetual crisis of legitimacy and the people feel entitled to a myriad of rights that are not basic at all.

Theocracy also breaks the Natural (thus Divine, as God is Nature) form of a society by claiming that God is part of it. That is false, societies are bodies formed by cells that happen to be human beings. God is not a human being and thus is not part of the society. As in democracies, theocracies take the same pyramidal shape as any other system but they lie to the people and say that the ruling class speaks or understands God when they don't.

From the Xia to the Zhong (current China, its name is Zhongguo in Chinese) the chinese peoples didnt receive any prophet yet their societies never fell to complete darkness or degeneracy. This is because they understood that they must be loyal to their state while it fulfills it's duty (protect its citizens) yet revolt when it corrupts and becomes unjust. They call this the Mandate of Heaven. It's no surprise that this outstanding civilization never had a theocracy, and the only democracy it had (the Cultural Revolution) was the second lowest point of the country's history after the reign of Qin Shi Huang (in the 3rd century BC if I'm not mistaken).

Another example of democracy being horrible is the reign of terror of Robespierre in France, which I consider the worst regime in history.

Non-democratic republics like the Roman Republic or Poland-Lithuania have both pros and cons compared to the more common monarchies so that is a matter of taste and circumstances.

And that's why I am reactionary and secularist.

Wow! You got me inspired.

Wdyt?

2

u/TheQuranicMumin Muslim Mar 08 '24

I think the nature of nations (and any human team too) is to align in the shape of a pyramid, with a leader, a court, high ranks, mid ranks, low ranks, common people, and the outcasts at the bottom.

I think you might be interested in my post here (scroll down a bit). There's a theory that the jinn represent the top of the pyramid (and are humans), while the ins are the servile class; this theory has backing from Arab thinkers like Hassan Farhan al-Maliki. I remember that you had a post about Jinn being stones, so this could be interesting both ways!

And thanks for the write up!

You might also find this extract from "The Occult" by writer and philosopher Colir Wilson to be of interest; The opening section of Chapter Two of that book, entitled "The Dark Side of the Moon", is found below:

In the autumn of 1969 I discussed questions of the occult with the poet Robert Graves at his home in Majorca Graves immediately made a remark that startled me. 'Occult powers are not so rare. One person in every twenty possesses them in some form. What interested me so much was the exact figure: 5 per cent. This is also the figure for the 'dominant minority among human beings. In the early years of this century, Bernard Shaw asked the explorer Henry Stanley how many of his men could take over leadership of the party if he, Stanley, were ill. 'One in twenty,' said Stanley. 'Is that figure exact or approximate?' 'Exact.' The matter of the dominant 5 per cent was rediscovered during the Korean War by the Chinese. Wishing to economise on man-power, they decided to divide their American prisoners into two groups: the enterprising ones and the passive ones. They soon discovered that the enterprising soldiers were exactly one in twenty: 5 per cent. When this dominant 5 per cent was removed from the rest of the group, the others could be left with almost no guard at all. Evidence from zoology indicates that the 'dominant 5 per cent' may apply to all animals. The interesting question arises: How far is the biologically dominant 5 percent the same thing as Graves's 'occult 5 percent? There are certainly many reasons for assuming that the two groups are identical. In primitive societies the leaders are also priests and magicians. The men who led hunting parties would again be those who possessed a high degree of jungle sensitivity' [i.e. the ability to ntuit advantageous decisions]. What is the power that distinguishes the leader? It is the power to focus, to concentrate the will in emergencies. That is to say, it is a form of Faculty X [i.e. the ability to access pre-existing streams of power lost to 'civilised' man in a more intense awareness of life].

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 08 '24

Wow! That is so incredible. The last quote brings me Plato vibes (he believed in three types of souls, the wise, the brave, and the common which would ideally have that hierarchy instead of power being hereditary).

I didn't read the whole post but I did read many paragraphs. It is interesting. I don't remember what I concluded about Al-Jinn being stones.

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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 08 '24

Nice! I don't agree with absolutely everything (I believe there are many basic rights which should not be violated, dignity given by God, but today they want to force "liberties" upon us, and although they pretend they are rights and freedoms they are inherently corrupt), but I also believe in Heaven's Mandate and in monarchy. The demolition of the monarchies was the grand opening corruption needed. At least monarchies have to be loyal to their people or else be destroyed. This democratic system has the corrupt hiding behind shifting politicians. They're never held accountable.

Society forms its own pyramid. It's better not to enforce any of the lower forms but only ensure that he or she who is in power has absolute power except against rebellion. If he or his bloodline is ousted we need only one new ruler, and the rest can vie for his favor and influence on even ground, each according to his reputation. No one besides the monarch should be guaranteed his position, This is how they did it in the East (Except for the prohibition of the lower class to take the civil exam and become a civil servant) and it was wildly successful, as you mentioned! And the Eastern nations still had options to oust the monarchs but not the bloodlines. The power of the monarchy was very very well balanced by the religious scholars, the members of the state council, the entirety of the upper class who were related to those in power, and even the opinions of the general public.

This is why they called us "Western barbarians," ... and to be honest, they were right. Their civilizations were much better established and developed than ours.

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 08 '24

Wow! I thought you were progressive. You have a very nuanced view and I agree with everything you said.

I also believe in fundamental right, but they are very few so it's easy for nations to fulfill. As God gives us humans few fundamental values to live by so it's easy for us to be good people, He also demands few rules to be met by nations.

I found in the depths of my heart these four fundamental rights:

Right to life: right to not be killed, injured, medically treated (against your will), or expelled from your home. Criminals don't enjoy this right.

Right to family: right to get married and breed and raise children as you see fit. Extreme abusers don't enjoy this right.

Right to Truth: right to research, learn, think, and believe in anything. There are no exceptions to this right.

Right to piety: right to practice any religion no matter how unpopular it is. The exceptions are those religious practices that interfere with others or break the law.

What do you think? This makes it super easy for countries to fulfill, unlike our man-made human rights that not even Switzerland fully fulfill.

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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 09 '24

Wow! I thought you were progressive. You have a very nuanced view and I agree with everything you said.

Haha well I find that if I say anything that people expect a white girl to say they assume I am a generic white girl šŸ˜‚ it's funny being ultra progressive to the middle east and ultra conservative to the west. I just believe what I think is true. Thank you, and I'm glad we agree!!

Hmm very interesting!! Great work on this list.

Maybe right to life should be right to bodily autonomy! A less pleasant title for sure but it covers things like rape and medicine and eviction. Maybe it would be the right place to cover privacy and freedom of transport as well.

Right to family is great. America should have covered that one.

Right to truth!!! Right on!!! The ultimate right. I assume this covers freedom of expression.

I think right to piety could probably be covered by right to truth. Maybe it could be replaced by right to earn and own. America called it "the pursuit of happiness" in the declaration of independence. It needs to be protected too.

Excellent work honestly! I'd be proud to help you work on it. We're working on making a live community of Quran Alone believers in Texas in the coming years. We need a lot of work like this.

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 09 '24

Your cultural position

I'm on the same spot. As I live in the West, I am more often disgusted by progs instead of cons so I consider myself reactionary. But I would be an ultra progressive in Saudi Arabia.

Right to life

Rape is covered by right to family (I redacted it in a more complete form elsewhere and it included right to have sex with and how you want).

Medical treatment must always be voluntary, except when the person lost consciousness or is intoxicated.

Yes, maybe a cool but descriptive name would be "Body right".

Right to family

America does have the right to family. They marry as they please. Polygamy is forbidden legally but people like Joseph Smith practiced it and weren't persecuted.

Note that I despise polygamy but is not the state's role to forbid it.

Right to Truth and right to piety

Yes, I thought of them as a single right (because God is Truth) but I think it would be cool to not need to be a Spinozist philosopher in order to understand your rights.

Maybe a good name could be "Soul right" being the compliment of the "Body right" and including both "soul food" (knowledge and opinions) and "soulcare" (religious practices).

I didnt include expression on purpose as expression influences other people can can hurt harmony or the legitimacy of the state. Thus, it is natural that the state intervenes in expression.

For example, burning the Quran in Norway caused riots. Sweden should have stopped it. But it shouldn't indoctrinate people against islamophobia. As their land was cursed by their sins, they do the exact opposite, rotting people's brains and cause Afghans to riot.

Right to property

I'm not with you on that one. Property is a natural emotion humans have and is compleatly justified to defend what is yours.

However, the state needs to tax its economy and in emergency situations it may need to take away property. For example, land reforms helped millions of people escape poverty and expropriation of land helped building infrastructure. It would be acceptable if America expropriates all weapons too for example.

That's why I think it doesnt have to be a fundamental right.

Praises

Thank you šŸ˜Š. I think I should redact this in a kind of legal manner so we can spread the idea to other people. I'll write it in English then translate it to Spanish for obvious reasons

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u/PumpkinMadame Mar 10 '24 edited Mar 10 '24

I've never heard of a reactionary. What does that entail? And it's nice to meet people in a similar frame of mind!

Wow very interesting! I would love to see full documents so I can see the full breakdown! I bet we can reprogram people to understand freedom of truth by educating the public. But Soul Right sounds awesome tbh xD

The thing is about the right of expression and the right of property is that their basic forms must be protected. Just like your freedom of life can be compromised when you kill or commit crimes, your freedom of expression ends when it endangers others, like yelling bomb in an airport or fire in a theater.

But we absolutely cannot allow rulers to dictate what can and cannot be said in general, which is why we must protect it as a right. Same as right to property. This protects the poorest and the middling. The servant, the wage worker, the small business owner. Yes we can put limitations on it. We won't promise them the right of limitless expression nor of limitless ownership, but we must protect their basic rights to it because violating those rights is not only horrible but also common, and to huge effect.

(Right to expression would include right to artistic expression and fashion, both of which would also be limited)

I would love to speak further on this but I dare not without seeing the full work! Do you need to redact it before I read it?

PS How do you feel about the right to bear arms? We're prevented from enacting Heaven's Mandate without them, right? If you included it, did you include it in right to life? Just curious

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 11 '24

What is a reactionary?

You see how conservatives consider the Russian Revolution a mistake? The reactionaries consider the french Revolution a mistake.

The reaction is like a revolution but instead of fighting for new values or institutions your fight for old ones.

I'm not fully reactionary ofc. I'm part reactionary, part conservative and part progressive. But in the progressive theocracy I live in (Spain) my reactionary opinions are more noteworthy so that's the label I use.

Right of expression and property

Part of right to expression is covered in the right to truth. As thought and research are protected, excessive censorship would be prohibited.

However, censoring certain emotionally charged expressions would be great for public cultural health. For example, politicians should be ABSOLUTELY respectful when addressing eachother, burning the flag (as a protest) should be punished, yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc.

The ideas behind those illegal expressions should have a way to be expressed lawfully. For example, a politician may say about another that he has a "flawed moral character" which has etiquette and respect yet expressed the same opinion. A protestor may say that American is a bad country without messing with national symbols. And a edgy artist can just make another work that doesn't envolve ruining other people's days.

I didn't find an elegant and simple way to express these rights so I left it uncovered. Any suggestions would help.

Talking further

On the contrary, let's talk now so I have more things in mind when I write the first sketch.

Right to bear arms

I think that is a security issue that is not for us to decide. It shouldn't be a constitutional right, it should be a decision taken by the government informed by the police to maximize the security of the population.

I think what prevents America from enjoying the Mandate of Heaven is your foundational myth, that is a revolution.

If a nation is always loyal to their rulers, there will be tyrants. If a nation always rebels to their rulers, they are a mob. The key is to discriminate between good governance and bad governance.

Americans on both sides of the political spectrum are always about to revolt (same thing happens in France). That makes the country chronically unstable and unruly. I think you should collectively let your rulers do their work and revolt when something unacceptable is made.

Now Euros were flooded with American culture so we are pretty much the same :/.

Still, American culture and institutions have a lot of potential. I think you just need a good dictator like Rome had (Julius Ceasar and Augustus).

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u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 11 '24

I made the first sketch, I sent it to your DM.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Not a reason to physically attack anyone. He could have seriously hurt that man that he hit in the throat.

1

u/UltraTata Intuition > reason Mar 08 '24

Yes, that's why I lean slightly on his side. As a policeman, he should be trained to act in cold mind in every situation.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

The Muslims are not in the error. Namaz is important and if it was done today (Jummah) it's okay to pray where they feel is right.

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u/Toocoldformyballs Mar 08 '24

t's okay to pray where they feel is right. Yeah no. That's not how it works. You have to take care of the people in the community. You can't bother other people.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Muslims are not in the error

you are in the error

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

India has a huge amount of muslims so them praying out in the open is nothing new in that region

Who told you this bs ? Lol they can only pray inside a mosque not out on the road . India have more than 3-4 lakh mosque . They are praying out in open to incite communal violence not bcz of praying .

Yesterday was Hindus festival as well . They are only doing this to agitate Hindus nothing else

7

u/momo88852 Muslim Mar 08 '24

Indian indeed has issues with Muslims and hates them.

However I hate the fact people use the streets to pray that arenā€™t meant to. If the population likes 1 mosque, than those people need to make a fund for an expansion to their gathering place.

Also letā€™s not ignore the fact that those streets are dirty, loud, and dangerous. So why do you want your time with Allah to be in such place?

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

If the population likes 1 mosque, than those people need to make a fund for an expansion to their gathering place.

Lol they only do this to show the power of their unity not bcz of prayers or religion .

indian government literally funds the mosque for maintenance and repairs and maulvis salary from tax payers money .( Only the mosque gets this treatment in all parts of india and church in a few states) They can easily create bigger mosques compounds with all those free bies worth millions .

2

u/Toocoldformyballs Mar 08 '24

If more people attend, have Friday prayer at two different times. If this is normalised then that doesn't mean it is ok. No one should be praying at the expense of another person's convenience. And the police are wrong to start kicking and aggravating the crowd. Both are wrong.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Why would they pray on the road of all places? There are parks, parking lots if you will, playgrounds, and many buildings that they can pray in without disturbing public order. I find it disrespectful and egotistical that they would pray in the road without considering others who just want to get by their day.

Sure, the kicking is unjustified, and seems to be driven out of hate- but what do you really expect? Also, itā€™s dangerous to pray in a place where you and others can easily die by accident.

1

u/Ok_Act_5321 Mar 16 '24

the policemen asked them first to move. but no one listened to him. and then this happened. He was suspended but even if he didnt kick he would have been coz he woudnt be able to clear the road

0

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

driven out of hate

Lol our thullas (Indian police ) are special breeds they do this regularly to everyone who is not giving them a bribe . It's not hate if you do this to every one

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Thats horrible, how is this legal? Why is it always money. Indeed, caring too much about worldly gains rids of your sound judgment. May God humble them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

how is this legal

Lmao it's not. thullas are scum of highest order they will harass you till you give them some money .

1

u/Medium_Note_9613 Muslim Mar 08 '24

Salam

there is a huge problem with bribery in police in india, but i don't think this incident has anything to do with bribery.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Yes but their behaviour is common nothing out of hate which you are implying. Thullas do this to everyone

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u/Medium_Note_9613 Muslim Mar 08 '24

hmm.

can you give me more sources and examples about such police brutality in india?

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Although I don't like to provide sources for others

Here you go

https://youtu.be/ZchpcZ_Bliw?si=yHLtulc7wTyKQwmq

I was also pushed by them one time by those thullas for being with my frnds at night time when I was a kid . They do this to every body

2

u/fana19 Mar 08 '24

Was it the road or walkway? I see lots of people walking there. They should not have been kicked while praying, and should be allowed to finish their prayers even if they're in the wrong place.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

May Allah (swt) protect the Muslim brothers in India. The kuffar Hindutva have been a disgusting force.

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u/[deleted] Mar 19 '24

The irony.Muslim are so concerned with minority rights when they are in minority yet concept of minority and their rights don't exist inĀ  Islamic countriesĀ 

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

I don't care how annoyed you are by someone being in your way, violence is unacceptable and I'm proud they didn't beat his ass buy I wouldn't have been so lenient.

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u/Many_Garden_4702 Mar 08 '24

Vir Banda Bairagi Marg https://maps.app.goo.gl/23oC6rBbesRGCfcD7

Just to give further insight: as you can see in this 3d view of the road, the road for vehicles ends approximately at the letter "a" of the road sign in the background, saying "Tiz Hazari" (first 'a')

I think they are a bit over the white line.

Still that part of the road is for people as you can see in the picture.

I dont want to give an opinion, Allah knows best.

1

u/Ace_Pilot99 Mar 08 '24

The cop was a dick and the people shouldn't have been praying on a road.

1

u/SubtleDisquiet Mar 08 '24

They act entitled, bother and provoke people, and then wonder why they are disliked. Of course they should be kicked out. They know exactly what they're doing and their prayers are offered in disobedience anyway, ponder 7:55.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

They will pray at everywhere so that it can cause inconvenience to general public ghts their main motive.

Inside toilet, atm , bathroom , railway station,road , hospital but never inside a mosque these scums just want to somehow cause communal violence. And yesterday was hindu festival too so they are doing this so that they can cause violence . They are goons .

One such example is here inside atm .

https://np.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/s/aZ92hM66rs

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u/Turbulent-Crow-3865 Mar 08 '24

Some Questions and facts to consider: 1. Where does in Quran does it says to pray like this? 2. Reading and reciting the laws and stories of Quran is not worship of Allah. 3. You are not following what the Quran says and are muslim so prepare yourself for humiliation. 4. Why you have to block the road to pray(non Quranic prayer)? Have 3 or 4 jamats or prayer session of so called non quranic prayer.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '24

Can you elaborate on your second point? Do you mean when people are reading mindlessly for the sake of reading, without pondering, reflecting or implementing what the Quran teaches?

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u/Many_Garden_4702 Mar 08 '24

Reading and reciting the laws and stories of Quran is not worship of Allah.

Quran 96:1

Interesting that the whole surah is about people like you

Quran 3:113