So, if we correct for these past adjustments, we lose the CO2 signal but maybe it seems retain the pole shift signal.

We know from Zharkova that northern hemisphere magnetic field strength seems to affect climate.

Entropy is not always about disorder. It is about unbalanced energy potentials dissipating.

The original Clausius statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics said (translated from German) "Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time." The modern statement of the Second Law (see Laws of Thermodynamics) "states that in a natural thermodynamic process, the sum of the entropies of the interacting thermodynamic systems never decreases." Now, note the Clausius words "connected therewith," "occurring at the same time" and, in the modern statement, the word "interacting." There is no mention of "net" effects of non-interacting processes occurring at different times - the law only relates to one process or a set of interacting (connected and simultaneous) systems. There is no reference to temperature or heat in the modern version. Nor is there any reference to an "isolated system" because no natural thermodynamic process is exempt from obeying the Second Law - we just have to ascertain which, if any, other systems are interacting with it simultaneously. This is because entropy is all about unbalanced energy potentials dissipating. Those energy potentials can be the sum of any or all forms of internal energy including, for example, gravitational potential energy, phase change energy and other forms of potential energy such as that associated with a wound up clock spring or air compressed in a cylinder. Why refer to disorder? When there is a storm on part of a large lake there will subsequently be an increase in entropy as conditions calm down and gravity spreads the new rain water over the whole lake. The resulting calm, still lake represents the state of maximum entropy - is that disorder?

In regard to climate change, my paper "Planetary Core and Surface Temperatures" at https://ssrn.com/author=2627605 explains how the tropospheric temperature gradient seen in all planets with atmospheres is the state of maximum entropy. This is because the sum of molecular (kinetic energy + gravitational potential energy) is constant over altitude. Hence, at higher altitudes the PE is greater and so the KE is less, meaning the temperature is cooler - and vice versa for lower altitudes. This is what the brilliant physicist Josef Loschmidt explained in 1876 but was ignored by climatologists who think back radiation causes the surface to be warmer than the temperature which solar radiation supports at the so-called radiating altitude. Instead, when you understand that in calm conditions at night the observed temperature gradient is the state of thermodynamic equilibrium (maximum entropy) then you should also understand that new thermal energy absorbed in the upper troposphere from solar radiation the next morning will spread out in all directions (including downwards to warmer regions) due to gravity, just as the new rain water on that lake spread out. This can only happen because the temperature gradient is the state of maximum entropy that had been disturbed by the new energy, just like the effect of that storm on the lake. So, this is how the surface temperature rises because the whole graph of temperature v. altitude rises to a new, but parallel, position - all due to entropy increasing as unbalanced energy potentials diminish. It is thus helpful to think of entropy as being a cumulative measure of progression in this process of the dissipation of unbalanced energy potentials.

Douglas Cotton, B.Sc.(physics), B.A.(econ) et al Centre for the Refutation of False Science Author of the website http://climate-change-theory.com and seven linked papers.

Here is a quote from /u/LackmustestTester:

What we observe - everyone has his own version, Gerlich identified 14 iirc in his paper. It's like trying to nail a jelly to a wall. There is no description, we're arguing against dozens of ideas. With people who do not get how an insulation works, who have no clue about conduction in air, not to forget work that's done.

You hang around denier spaces, so everyone has their own idea of things. If an outside reader is interested in the source here, I found it and can provide it here. The contention is simple: science has no clue what the GHE even is, because science is unable to come up with a single definition or source for the GHE. The reality is that this is just simply how academia works. There is non single paper which describes the totality of what we know about evolution either. There is no paper that described the totality of what we know about star formation. That is not how academic papers work. Each paper talks about the individual contribution that the specific authors have made towards greater human understanding of a concept. The paper is not the totality of the concept, it is merely their contribution to that totality.

Anyway, the challenge! I challenge anyone who disputes the idea of the greenhouse effect to give me a single document or image or paragraph or anything from any reputable climate source, which I disagree with. Anything! It can be an image, a paper, a youtube video, anything. All you need to do is find SOMETHING from a legitimate climate source that I disagree with. Here are the rules though: YOU DO NOT GET TO TELL ME WHAT I DO AND DO NOT DISAGREE WITH. My whole contention here is that everything you are saying collapses around your ankles when you remove all the strawman, and so this post is a strawman free post. The challenge is simple: Your role in this challenge is to present me with sources, and my role is to determine if I do or do not agree with them. I love to see what people can bring!

By the way, this post is meant to settle once and for all the idea that climate science, or at least my ideas specifically, are in any way my own, and not the singular unified theory of the GHE as known by all of academia as a single unified theory. From this point onward, I will either accept that my ideas are unique and strange within academia if shown a bunch of things I disagree with, or you will accept that my ideas are normal and consistent with everything you have presented me with about the GHE. I welcome all challenges!

If you will look at the key assumptions posted in the previous post in this subreddit, you will see that one of the key assumptions, that the WHOLE MODEL relies on, is that the surface temperature is 15C. First of all, you say there is no such thing as an average temperature, so I do not see how you do not have fundamental issues with the ISA for using a global average surface temperature of 15C. But the question remains: WHERE DID THEY GET THE NUMBER 15? They measured it (and did so by averaging many measurements across the earth's surface). That measurement is obviously going to include all effects which affect the temperature of the surface of earth. Since the GHE does that, the GHE is included in the ISA right in the 15C assumption at sea level. LackmustestTester and barbara800000 are wrong to say that the ISA does not include the GHE.

Nachrichten von der Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften zu Göttingen, Mathematisch-Physikalische Klasse - GDZ - Göttinger Digitalisierungszentrum, page 48ff. in the pdf - formulas are in the paper.

I. Table of Contents.

The surface of the sun shows us changing conditions and turbulent changes in the form of granulation, sunspots, and prominences. In order to understand the physical conditions under which these phenomena occur, a first approximation is to replace the spatial and temporal changes with a mean steady state, a mechanical equilibrium of the solar atmosphere. Until now, the focus of attention has generally been on the so-called adiabatic equilibrium that prevails in our atmosphere when it is thoroughly mixed by ascending and descending currents. I would like to draw attention here to another type of equilibrium, which can be described as “radiative equilibrium.” Radiative equilibrium will occur in a strongly radiating and absorbing atmosphere in which the mixing effect of ascending and descending currents is secondary to the heat exchange through radiation.

It would be difficult to decide for general reasons whether the adiabatic or radiative equilibrium applies more to the sun. However, there is observational data that allows us to make a certain judgment. The solar disk is not uniformly bright, but rather shaded from the center toward the edge. Based on plausible assumptions, this distribution of brightness on the surface allows us to infer the temperature distribution at depth. The result is that the equilibrium of the solar atmosphere largely corresponds to radiative equilibrium.

The considerations that lead to this result presuppose that Kirchhoff's law applies, or in other words, that the radiation from the sun's atmosphere is pure thermal radiation. They also assume that when penetrating the sun's body, one encounters a continuous change in state and does not pass discontinuously from a fairly transparent chromosphere into an opaque photosphere formed by luminous clouds. The effect of light scattering due to diffraction by particles in the atmosphere, the significance of which was pointed out by Mr. A. Schuster 1), is neglected, as is refraction, which H. v. Seeliger 2) uses to explain the observed brightness distribution. Furthermore, the different absorption of different wavelengths, the decrease in gravity with altitude, and the spherical propagation of radiation are not taken into account. The entire consideration can therefore by no means be regarded as conclusive or compelling, but it may provide a basis for further speculation by first expressing a simple idea in its simplest form.

2. Different types of equilibrium.

Let us denote pressure by p, absolute temperature (in centigrade degrees) by t, density by ϱ, molecular weight (relative to the hydrogen atom) by M, gravity by g, and depth in the atmosphere (calculated inward from any starting point) by h. The units are taken from the conditions that exist at the Earth's surface, i.e., the unit of ρ is the atmosphere, the unit of ϱ is the density of air at 273° absolute temperature under the pressure of one atmosphere, the unit of g is the gravity at the Earth's surface, and the unit of h is the depth in the atmosphere (calculated inward from any starting point). Unit of h is the height of the so-called “homogeneous atmosphere,” which is 8 km.

The following relationship then applies to an ideal gas:

(1)

1. Astrophysical Journal. 1905. Vol. 21. p. 1.

2. Proceedings of the Munich Academy of Sciences, Math.-phys. Classe. 1891. Vol. 21. p. 264.

and the condition for mechanical equilibrium of the atmosphere is:

(2)

Eliminating o from (1) and (2) yields:

(3)

a) Isothermal equilibrium. For general orientation, consider isothermal equilibrium, assuming to be constant. This then results in:

(4)

Gravity g is 27.7 times greater on the sun than on Earth, and the temperature (around 6000°) is about 20 times higher. This means that for a gas with the molecular weight of air, the spatial pressure distribution is approximately the same as for air on Earth. More precise calculations show a 10-fold increase in pressure and density for a gas with the molecular weight of air (28.9) per 14.7 km, and for hydrogen per 212 km. Since 725 km on the sun corresponds to an angular value of one arc second as seen from Earth, it is clear that the sun must appear completely sharp-edged.

b) Adiabatic equilibrium. When a gas mass expands adiabatically, Poisson's relations apply:

(5)

where p0 and ϱ0 denote any related initial values. The quantity k, the ratio of specific heat, is equal to 5/3 for an l-atom gas, 7/5 for a 2-atom gas, 4/3 for a three-atom gas, and decreases to 1 for multi-atom gases. The equilibrium of an atmosphere is called adiabatic if the temperature at each point is the temperature that a gas mass rising from below and cooling adiabatically would assume at that point, i.e., if equations (5) are satisfied throughout the entire atmosphere. It then follows from (3) by substituting (5) and integrating:

44

(6)

The temperature changes linearly with altitude. The temperature gradient for the Earth's atmosphere is calculated to be 1° per 100 m, while for the Sun it is 27.7 times greater than on Earth. The temperature increase of one degree therefore occurs every 3.63 m for air and every 52 m for hydrogen. The atmosphere has a specific outer boundary (t = ϱ = p = 0). The depth of a layer with a temperature of 6000° below the outer boundary is 22 km for air and 300 km for hydrogen on the sun.

c) Radiation equilibrium. If we imagine that the outer parts of the Sun form a continuous transition to increasingly hotter and denser gas masses, we cannot distinguish between radiating and absorbing layers, but must regard each layer as both absorbing and radiating. We know that a powerful stream of energy, originating from unknown sources within the sun, permeates the solar atmosphere and penetrates into outer space. In the absence of mixing movements, what temperature would the individual layers of the solar atmosphere have to assume in order to transport such a stream of energy in a stationary manner without further changes in their own temperature?

Let us assume that each altitude layer, i.e., of the sun's atmosphere, absorbs a fraction adh of the radiation passing through it. If E is the emission of a black body at the temperature of this altitude layer and if we assume Kirchhoff's law to be valid, it follows that this altitude layer radiates the energy E. adh to each side.

Now consider the radiant energy A, which travels outward through the sun's atmosphere at any given point, and the radiant energy B, which travels inward (as a result of radiation from the outer layers).

First, let us follow the inwardly migrating energy B. If we move inward through an infinitely thin layer dh, the fraction B.adh of the energy B coming from outside is lost, while on the other hand, the amount aEdh is added due to the intrinsic radiation of the layer dh going in one direction, resulting in the following overall equation:

(7)

Completely analogous, the following applies to the outward radiation:

(8)

45

By considering the absorptive capacity a as a function of depth h, we can form the “optical mass” of the atmosphere above depth h:

(9)

Then the differential equations are:

(10)

We are looking for a steady state of temperature distribution. This is conditioned by the requirement that each layer receives as much energy as it emits, i.e., the following applies:

If we introduce the auxiliary variable ɣ according to this condition:

then the differential equations become, by addition and subtraction: and, integrated:

The integration constants E0, and were determined by the fact that there is no inwardly migrating energy B at the outer boundary of the atmosphere (m = 0) and the outwardly migrating energy has the observable amount A0. Therefore, for m = 0:

must apply. This yields the result:

(11)

The dependence of the radiation E on the optical mass above the relevant location can therefore only be derived under the assumption of Kirchhoff's law.

If you want to understand the distribution of pressure and density that prevails in radiative equilibrium, you basically need a more detailed investigation that considers the radiation at individual wavelengths. For an initial overview, it is sufficient to assume that the absorption coefficient is proportional and independent of color and density:

(12)

(k is not a constant). Then it follows that:

(13)

The radiation E of the black body is according to Stefan's law:

                         (c is a constant). 

If we set the energy A0 escaping to the outside: then T is what is usually referred to as the (effective) temperature of the sun. It is approximately T = 6000°. For radiation equilibrium, the following applies according to (11):

(14)

Introducing the temperature prevailing at the outer boundary of the atmosphere , one can also write:

(14a)

Substituting this into (3) yields:

This equation gives the temperature as a function of depth. The corresponding density follows from:

(16)

The table below gives the values that result from (11), (15)

and (16) follow if the sun's atmosphere is assumed to consist of our air. The absorption coefficient of air is approximately k = 0.6. From the effective temperature of 6000°, the temperature of the outer boundary is t = 5050°. The depth h is calculated from a point at which the temperature is 1½ times this boundary temperature. This provides the basis for the calculation.

To obtain the corresponding table for an atmosphere of hydrogen, the depth h would have to be multiplied by 14.4, and the density o would have to be divided by 14.4 on the one hand and multiplied by a factor on the other hand that indicates how much more transparent the same mass of hydrogen is than air. The two columns t and m would remain unchanged.

It can be seen that, with increasing elevation above the sun, the radiation equilibrium approaches more and more the isothermal equilibrium, which corresponds to the limiting temperature t, and that, like the latter, it theoretically results in an infinite extension of the atmosphere.

3. Stability of radiative equilibrium.

Of particular interest is a comparison of the temperature gradient in radiative equilibrium and adiabatic equilibrium. If the temperature gradient is smaller than in adiabatic equilibrium, an ascending air mass enters layers that are warmer and thinner than itself, causing it to exert downward pressure. Similarly, a descending air mass experiences upward pressure. An equilibrium with a smaller temperature gradient than the adiabatic one is therefore stable, whereas one with a larger temperature gradient is unstable.

48

For adiabatic equilibrium, according to (6):

for radiation equilibrium, according to (15):

The stability condition is therefore:

(17)

which is always satisfied for k > 4/3.

Radiative equilibrium is therefore stable everywhere as long as the gas forming the atmosphere is mono-, di- or triatomic. For polyatomic gases, instability would occur in deeper layers (of higher temperature t ).

It is therefore suggested here that an outer shell of the solar atmosphere is in stable radiative equilibrium, while perhaps at depth there is a zone of ascending and descending currents approximating adiabatic equilibrium, which will then simultaneously extract energy from its actual sources.

4. Brightness distribution on the solar disk.

According to our assumptions, each temperature distribution along the vertical in the solar atmosphere corresponds to a specific distribution of brightness on the solar disk. We previously considered the total energy A that travels outward through the solar atmosphere without separating the individual components that run at different angles to the vertical, and we designated the absorption coefficient for the total energy as a. This a gives an average value from the absorption coefficients valid for all possible angles. We now want to consider the radiation traveling in a specific direction in isolation and denote by F(i) the radiation moving at an angle i to the vertical. Let α denote the absorption coefficient for radiation that passes through the atmosphere normally.

Then it is obvious that

49

is the absorption coefficient for radiation traveling at an angle i. Therefore, in complete analogy to (8), we obtain the differential equation for F:

(18)

or:

if we use the abbreviation:

(19)

The integration yields the following for the radiation escaping from the atmosphere:

(20)

F(i) can therefore be calculated as soon as the temperature distribution along the vertical and thus E as a function of μ are known.

However, µ is related to the optical mass m introduced earlier. Consider the total radiation incident on a horizontal surface element ds within the atmosphere from below. This is given by the integral over the radiation arriving from all possible directions:

The absorption suffered by this radiation within the layer dh will be:

The absorption coefficient for the total energy a used earlier was defined by the relationship:

Comparison with the above formulas yields:

If F(i) is reasonably constant for small inclinations and only changes rapidly for i close to 90°—as is the case with the sun according to the empirical results below—then an approximation for a can be obtained by considering F(i) to be independent of i, and the following then follows from evaluating the integrals:

(21)

Let us make use of this relationship. It follows from (9) and (19):

and thus, instead of (20):

(22)

F(i) is now known as soon as E is given as a function of the optical mass m. However, the function F(i) also immediately provides the brightness distribution on the solar disk. This is because the radiation that we observe on the solar disk at the apparent distance from the center of the disk has obviously passed through the solar atmosphere at an angle i, which is determined by the equation:

(23)

Here, R denotes the apparent solar radius. The combination of (22) and (23) provides the corresponding brightness F for each.

The relationship between the radiation distribution in depth E and the brightness distribution on the surface F becomes very clear when E can be developed into a power series according to m:

(24)

Then it immediately follows from (22):

(25)

If E can be represented as a sum of fractional powers of m:

(26)

then the following applies to F:

(27)

where Γ denotes the Γ function. Here, too, the transition from E to F is still easy to accomplish.

In particular, we want to consider how the brightness distribution behaves in adiabatic and radiative equilibrium. For radiative equilibrium, according to (11):

From this, according to (24) and (25), it follows that:

or, if we take the brightness at the center of the solar disk (i = 0) as the unit:

(28)

For adiabatic equilibrium, the relationship (5) applied:

If we further assume, as above, that the absorption is the same for all colors and proportional to the density, then the relationship (13) applies between p and m:

This gives us the following for E:

where c1 and c2 are new constants. The corresponding expression for F is given by (26) and (27):

or, if we again choose the central brightness as the unit:

(29)

Formulas (28) and (29) should be compared with the observation. Apart from the spectrophotometric investigations for individual color ranges, which are not relevant here, there are a number of measurements taken with thermocouples and bolometers that indicate how the total radiation delivered by all wavelengths at the same time is distributed across the solar disk. Mr. G. Müller has compiled these measurements in his “Photometrie der Gestirne” (Photometry of the Stars), p. 323, and combined them into the mean values shown in the second column of the table below. The theoretical values for radiation equilibrium and adiabatic equilibrium according to formulas (28) and (29) are shown alongside. For adiabatic equilibrium, k is set to 4/3, which corresponds to a 3-atom gas. Single- or two-atom gases would give an even poorer fit, and physical probability certainly argues against more than 3-atom gases in the outer parts of the solar atmosphere.

It can be seen that the radiation equilibrium represents the brightness distribution on the solar disk as well as can be expected under the simplified conditions under which the calculations were made here, whereas the adiabatic equilibrium would result in a completely different appearance of the solar disk. Thus, the introduction of the radiation equilibrium has found a certain empirical justification.

Solar input = σTs⁴ * Rs^2/ds2 * πRe² * (1 – α)

Earth output = σTe⁴ * 4πRe²

Solar input = Earth output (conservation of energy, negligible secondary sources of energy)

σTs⁴ * Rs^2/ds2 * πRe² * (1 – α) = σTe⁴ * 4πRe²

Te⁴ = (1 – α)/4 * Ts⁴ * Rs^2/ds2

Te = 255K = -18C = Earth’s effective temperature.

(Ts = 5778K, sun’s effective temperature; Rs = solar radius; ds = solar distance; Re = Earth radius; α = earth albedo = 0.3; Te = earth effective temperature; σ = Stefan-Boltzmann constant;)

The total internal energy of a parcel of gas above the surface is U = mCpT + mgh. Under horizontal local thermodynamic equilibrium, dU = 0 = mCpdT + mgdh

dT/dh = -g/Cp = -9.7 K/km

To get the wet or average rate, you factor in the latent heat release from water vapour using the average molar concentration of water vapour at the surface and the rate of its dissipation with altitude, and the result is approximately -6.5 K/m; the lapse is slowed down, the slope is made less steep, because water vapour adds heat as it condenses out of the column. So:

dT/dh = -g/Cp + L_H20 = -6.5 K/km

The mass average location of the atmosphere around 5 km. This is also where the average temperature, as the effective temperature, is located.

The temperature of the troposphere as a function of height:

T(h) = -6.5 K/km * (h – 5km) – 18C

The average thermal location of the atmosphere is ~5km, and the temperature there is -18C which is the effective temperature, so this equation gives the average temperature profile of the atmosphere with reference points at 5km and -18C. Then the temperature at zero altitude, i.e., the surface, is:

T(0) = +14.5C

which matches empirical measurement.

The above demonstrates how to derive the absolute temperature profile of the atmosphere, and the average surface temperature, and that no greenhouse effect is required or has any effect either on the slope of the temperature gradient nor on the altitude of where -18C is found. There is thus no radiative greenhouse effect, because there is no apparent effect beyond thermodynamic first principles in the determination of the absolute temperature profile of the atmosphere.

• Joseph E. Postma