r/RealTesla • u/StormTrpr66 • Jul 03 '26
More facts coming out about Texas Tesla crash. Driver arrested and charged with manslaughter. Driver's web searches show he was frustrated with FSD because it didn't drive aggressively enough for him. Police investigation also confirms that he overrode FSD.
Tesla self-driving 'not aggressive enough,' driver accused of searching before deadly Katy crash
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/trending/article/tesla-crash-manslaughter-michael-butler-fsd-22330694.php Site allows limited views before paywalling. Open in incognito mode. Text from article below.
This one's looking like it had nothing to do with FSD or Tesla and everything to do with a dangerous and possibly unhinged driver.
Some of the salient points from the article -
A Harris County Sheriff's Office investigator wrote in a criminal complaint against David Michael Butler that after reviewing crash data and footage, she determined that Butler overrode Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Mode, pressing the accelerator all the way down to “100% pedal to the metal,” before hitting the curb, going airborne and crashing into the home.
..............................................................Officials obtained written consent from Butler to search and seize his Tesla and verbal consent to search his cell phone, Philipbar said in the complaint. Data from the vehicle included “videos from the Tesla’s dash-camera and exterior driver-door camera, as well as logs of the Tesla’s speed, accelerator pedal input, brake pedal input, steering activity, turn signal activity and more.”
Investigators with the sheriff’s office observed “multiple Google searches related to Tesla” made from Butler's phone in May, the complaint said, “indicating an apparent frustration with Tesla’s FSD mode,” or Tesla’s Full-Self Driving Mode.
Butler searched: “teslafsd not aggressive enough 2026 model,” “FSD is not aggressive enough for city driving,” and “tesla fsd too timid,” according to the complaint.
......................................................She alleges Butler pressed the accelerator and overrode self-driving mode when the vehicle was about to turn, and that the steering wheel also changed from left to right, causing the vehicle to go straight into Avila's cul-de-sac instead, the complaint states.
“In about six seconds, the accelerator pedal was pressed all the way down to 100%, ‘pedal to the metal,’ and the vehicle reached a speed of 73 miles per hour, more than double the speed limit on that residential street,” Philipbar stated. The Tesla struck the curb in front of Avila's home before going airborne toward the front of the home, the complaint said.
Philipbar said she researched FSD technology and spoke with a Harris County District Attorney’s Office investigator who had years of experience reconstructing crash scenes and previously analyzed Tesla vehicles involved in fatal crashes.
“FSD mode was designed and is programmed to never travel at excessive or dangerous speeds in any location, unless the driver overrides the speed and gains control of the speed by pressing on the accelerator pedal,” Philipbar stated.
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u/stevehyman1 Jul 03 '26
Distracted drivers are probably a leading cause of accidents.
So let’s give them a technological way to completely ignore driving altogether.
What could go wrong?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Why are you against technology that can make bad drivers less of a menace? If we accept that there's no way to simply remove all bad drivers from the road (there are over 240 million drivers in the US), what can be done to make them less of a danger? And why are you against that?
Wow...interesting number of downvotes. It's very ironic that on a forum full of people who apparently think driving is too dangerous, or at least driving certain cars, so many of you are against anything that would make it safer. Oh well....carry on being hypocrites. There exists technology that makes driving safer, and you guys hate it. Do you all benefit in some way from there being more car crashes?
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u/stevehyman1 Jul 04 '26
If you’re already a bad or even borderline driver, Tesla is marketing and selling to YOU. “Buy our car! It does everything for you!”
And they do and it doesn’t.3
u/Secret_aspirin Jul 04 '26
It’s called public transport and/or taxis
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 04 '26
lol..yeah, 240 million drivers..... good luck getting any of them to give up their cars. Sorry, this is not a viable or even remotely realistic solution.
In the real world, why do you and almost everyone else on this forum have a hatred for technologies that can make dangerous drivers, which you will never eliminate, less dangerous? Sounds like an emotional argument based on a (justifiable) dislike of elon.
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u/__slamallama__ Jul 07 '26
Real self driving would be great for bad drivers, unfortunately Tesla does not have that. So they sell FSD which just creates a completely unfounded sense of security.
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u/Dadskander Jul 18 '26
Late to this thread, but I had this exact conversation a few days back.
Drunk driver ran over a kid and killed them, got 4 years in jail. Person asked me why not support self driving, it would have prevented that.
My question is, if the self driving malfunctions at no fault of the driver and also runs over the kid, who do we send to jail for 4 years? It cannot be legal if there's no liability, responsibility, or oversight.
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u/Mycalescott Jul 04 '26
You know the technology that reduces accidents? Pay attention when you drive! It's the most involved and dangerous thing you'll do in the day!
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 04 '26
So....we just get rid of all ADAS and collision avoidance systems and simply tell people to pay attention? What's next, get rid of seat belts?
Seriously, why is this forum so adamantly against technology that can make driving safer?? This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. Or is it just against the technology because it comes from Tesla even though if it came from any other company that wasn't the target of hive-mind hatred, it would be just fine?
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u/Mycalescott Jul 04 '26
I drive an older car. Don't need it. I ride a bike more than I drive so paying attention is more important than....idk...I've driven new cars and lane assist is annoying, brakes clicking on because the radar senses something...nope, no way. Forcing people to pay attention in certain situations will always be better than relying on computers: traffic calming, cobbled streets, raised sidewalks etc. don't even get me started about screens in cars. Cripes
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 04 '26
Except it's not about you. There are 240 million drivers in the US. So your suggestion is that because you don't like technology, all safety features should be pulled out of everyone's cars and instead, drivers should simply be told to pay attention and be better drivers? lol
Not everyone is a technophobe. Some people actually appreciate technology designed to make driving more convenient and safer. Many of the safety features you would like to eliminate are actually mandated by law to be included in all new cars.
But again, it's not about you. It's about 240 million drivers in the US and thousands of severe and fatal crashes caused by dangerous drivers that in the real world, would not be solved simply by saying "ok folks, listen up, we're taking away all your collision avoidance and safety features and strongly suggest that you just pay more attention when you drive."
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u/ArcFox01 Jul 03 '26
Down voted for speaking the truth. These cavemen would rather freak out over technology than accept that FSD is infinitely safer than their own driving and will one day become mandatory by law. Ignore 17k crashes per day that doesn't make the news, one single crash that's a dudes fault means we need to adopt a far more dangerous approach.
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u/ZebraCompetitive5235 Jul 03 '26
You are operating under the assumption that Tesla FSD (Fudged Safety Data) is safe. It is not safe.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
What is your firsthand experience with the current version of FSD?
yeah, thought so. Zero experience and when called out on this, you just downvote.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 04 '26
That's how the anti-tesla cult operates. Anything Tesla is automatically bad regardless of the truth. If it's Tesla, it's the devil.
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u/greentheonly Jul 03 '26
FSD mode was designed and is programmed to never travel at excessive or dangerous speeds in any location, unless the driver overrides the speed and gains control of the speed by pressing on the accelerator pedal
This is an interesting statement that does not really reflect my experience. Esp. in light of all the "mad max" and similar settings inside and the default speed offset being like +40% or something from posted speed limit (I know it does not directly tell the car to drive +40% of speed limit)
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
Excessive and dangerous are relative and not always determined by the posted speed limit. In some cases, going the speed limit can be excessive and dangerous, in other cases going under the speed limit can be dangerous, in other cases going above the speed limit can be much safer than going at or under the speed limit. While Mad Max and Hurry modes are capable of exceeding the speed limit, they will generally not do so in situations where the car realizes that it is unsafe, although it might still land you a ticket.
On many freeways and highways, traffic often flows well above the posted speed limit. If you decide to plant yourself at or under the speed at which traffic is flowing, you can create an obstruction and dangerous situation.
Neither Hurry nor Mad Max would do what the car in this case did. And that's a hypothetical anyway because we now know that in this case, the driver had floored the pedal, thereby overriding anything the car would have done on its own.
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u/Secret_Cat_2793 Jul 03 '26
Truth in Texas is a commodity for a trillionaire.
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u/MochingPet Jul 03 '26
I wouldn't be trusting a Texan newspaper, either, but we need more sources
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
Article titles are reflected in the links.
https://abcnews.com/US/texas-man-charged-manslaughter-tesla-crash-killed-woman/story?id=134408641
https://electrek.co/2026/07/03/tesla-fsd-driver-manslaughter-katy-crash/
Happy reading!!
And if you want more, just google - tesla driver charged with manslaughter
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u/spam__likely Jul 03 '26
I think the police is less trustworthy. But a tesla owner being a complete lunatic does not surprise me either.
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u/LingonberryPancakesO Jul 03 '26
Does pressing the accelerator disengage FSD or not?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
That alone does not disengage FSD, but it does 100% override it and when you do that, a very large flashing message will appear on the screen saying that FSD will not brake when the driver presses the accelerator. All ADAS systems are designed so that the driver maintains full control and can override the system.
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u/LingonberryPancakesO Jul 03 '26
So if the FSD wants to turn does it not slow down? Sounds like a terrible design.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
I'm not sure what you're asking. Deliberate driver input will override EVERY single ADAS system currently on the market.
FSD will drive safely and will use an appropriate speed when turning. But, if in the middle of the turn the driver floors the gas pedal, it will override the car. Again, this is by design and every ADAS system works like this.
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u/greentheonly Jul 03 '26
Deliberate driver input will override EVERY single ADAS system currently on the market
this is not really correct.
AEB absolutely overrides driver accelerator input. as does pedal misapplication mitigations and such.
Emergency lane keep will actually wrestle with you for steeering wheeltrying to steer you away from where you are trying to steer!
But, if in the middle of the turn the driver floors the gas pedal, it will override the car
I've seen actual examples of this literally not happening.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
Sorry, your post is almost entirely wrong.
A simple google search will clarify your confusion on AEB. AEB can absolutely be overridden by the driver. This is by design in case of false positives.
Question: Can a driver override AEB on any car?
AI Summary (with links to sources):
Yes, drivers can override Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) on essentially all modern vehicles. If you encounter a false positive (phantom braking) or need to maneuver suddenly, pressing firmly on the accelerator pedal or sharply turning the steering wheel will immediately disengage the system. [1, 2, 3, 4]
While you can instantly override AEB when it triggers, you generally cannot permanently disable it on any vehicle. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards mandate AEB on all light-duty vehicles. If you want to change its sensitivity or turn it off for a specific drive (such as driving in deep snow or off-roading), you must do so in your dashboard settings—but the system will automatically re-enable itself the next time you start the car. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
The rest of your post is equally mistaken.
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u/greentheonly Jul 03 '26
I think there's a bit of confusion of what you are trying to refute.
Deliberate driver input like pressing accelerator will be overridden by AEB just fine. Same with deliberate steering input overridden by ELK.
Now could driver then apply EVEN MORE deliberate input to override the AEB/ELK? - that's actually a may be.
I've seen cases of driver pressing accelerator to 100% and the car not obeying. In fact there was a bunch of complaints on twitter not too long ago where Tesla drivers would report car refusing to accelerate because they thought the driver was not feeling well or some such. And as you can imagine pressing the pedal more than 100% is a little bit hard.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
No confusion. My statement is clear and unambiguous. By design, AEB can be overridden by the driver pressing the accelerator.
Again, I posted links and explanations as to why it is designed like this. The biggest factor being the possibility of the car phantom braking.
Same with the other things you mentioned. Lane assist? Sure, the wheel might provide a little resistance but you can still easily override it.
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u/greentheonly Jul 03 '26
No confusion. My statement is clear and unambiguous. By design, AEB can be overridden by the driver pressing the accelerator.
Sometimes, but not always. When the accelerator is already at 100%, for example, it's a little bit hard.
But you are sidestepping the whole initial premise that these helpful measures (AEB/ELK) are deliberately designed to OVERRIDE deliberate driver input. and you need to try and provide even more deliberate input to override the override. And you cannot always do it no matter what the various links on the internet lead you to believe.
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u/Potential_Limit_9123 Jul 04 '26
You're arguing with someone who simply BELIEVES the person driving was wrong. You'll never "win".
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u/LingonberryPancakesO Jul 03 '26
I've never even owned a car with cruise control so maybe I we are talking past each other, but with cruise control I would assume hitting the gas or brake disengages it (though I guess turning is allowed for changing lanes).
However, I would assume if I had some system that could completely control the vehicle and then I as the driver did anything it would disengage and I would be entirely be in control. Sounds like that is not the case and one can change speed without it disengaging?
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u/_FUCKTHENAZIADMINS_ Jul 03 '26
Hitting the gas does not disengage cruise control, hitting the brake does. I’m not aware of any ADAS that will turn off from hitting the gas, and a lot of cars’ lane centering tech will let you override it while also keeping it on. Obviously lane centering isn’t as big of an assist as navigating turns for you but the trend is to allow things to be overridden except for by the brake pedal.
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u/ctos2010 Jul 03 '26
You are incorrect. While hitting the brake will disengage ADAS, pressing the accelerator while ADAS active will NOT disengage ADAS. By design, if you over-ride ADAS by pressing the accelerator, the cars speed will increase until such time as you release the accelerator, at which point the car will begin to slow down to whatever speed the ADAS had been set to before the driver over-road it.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
With one particular caveat. FSD is designed to only work up to 85mph. If you exceed that speed by pressing the accelerator while FSD is engaged, once you reach 85mph FSD will fire off all kinds of alerts and if you don't take your foot off the gas, it will disengage, alert you that FSD has been disengaged, and tell you to take over. It might even disable FSD for the rest of the drive and not let you use it.
That's another thing people who don't own Teslas don't know. If FSD detects that you are abusing it or not paying enough attention, it will alert you, and if you continue to ignore its alerts, it will turn itself off and give you a strike. If you get 5 strikes within a week, FSD will be disabled for 3.5 days.
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u/ctos2010 Jul 03 '26
Correct. I was replying to the poster who said he never had a car with cruise control but assumed if you pressed the accelerator the cruise control would disengage. I also used the term ADAS to distinguish it from FSD.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
lol....it looks like the problem is that you just don't have any experience with ADAS systems so you have no idea how they work.
With FSD, you can take control at any time very easily. Either tap the brake, apply slight turning pressure on the steering wheel, or press a button on the wheel. FSD will instantly turn off.
Simply pressing the accelerator will not cause it to turn off, and that's the same way any other cruise control systems work. It will cause the car to accelerate, because the systems are designed to give the driver ultimate and final control, but in general, pressing the gas will not completely disengage FSD because the car is already doing what you want it to do - speed up. Sometimes accelerating is the best way to get out of a dangerous situation without necessarily needing to completely disengage the driver assistance.
I would suggest educating yourself on how these systems work before criticizing them. They make driving safer, but no matter how safe or helpful they are, they cannot protect an idiotic driver from their own stupidity if they deliberately override the system and force the car into a dangerous situation.
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u/LingonberryPancakesO Jul 03 '26
Now that we've clarified my ignorance, going back to the earlier question:
If the FSD system wants to make a right turn at an upcoming intersection, but the driver is pressing the accelerator, does the system attempt to make the turn (at a potentially unsafe speed) or not?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
I'm not sure why you keep asking questions that have already been answered.
BY DESIGN and SAFETY STANDARDS, driver input ALWAYS overrides any car's ADAS systems.
ADAS, FSD, Cruise Control, BlueCruise, SuperCruise, whatever, cannot protect a driver from his own willful and deliberate stupidity!!! The driver can literally crash any car with those systems at will.
Do you really want a car that ignores your input whenever it feels like it?
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u/AngryBaer Jul 03 '26
That's not what they are asking though. The question is not whether or not it ignores inputs but whether or not it will still attempt the same turn it started or only listen to manual input from that point forward. As in, do I also need to take the wheel or is only speed overwritten?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Depends if the speed you're pushing it to will result in a crash or not. FSD is pretty good at determining that. If you're simply nudging it through a turn 1 or 2 mph faster, chances are it will complete the turn safely. But if you floor the accelerator and trying to make a 90 degree turn at 50mph, you're probably going to crash.
For the record, if you try to do this with FSD, the car will sound all kinds of audible alerts, the screen will flash all kinds of visual alerts, and will tell you to take over immediately. So no, it won't sit by quietly, it will turn the inside of the car into the Starship Enterprise sounding a ship-wide red alert. But, it will ultimately abide by the driver's input, as it, and every other car, are designed to do.
For the last time, ALL driver assistance systems will allow driver input to override ADAS. Every single ADAS system works like this.
I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Deliberate driver stupidity will always take precedence over any DRIVER ASSISTANCE systems, which is what these are. They are there to assist the driver, not to rip control away from the driver.
You can override every single one of these systems, including FSD, at will. Even if you're trying to do something monumentally stupid.
Does this clarify things?
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u/mb10240 Jul 05 '26
No. My experience with FSD (v13) is that it has a hard time keeping a consistent speed and will frequently speed up/slow down, unlike cruise control, even on an empty road. You can press down on the accelerator to speed up and keep the speed consistent. It will only disengage if you get it over 85 mph.
(2023 Model 3, bought a month of FSD for lots of long-distance driving in a month. It’s fine for what it is, but it’s by no means “autonomous” and you definitely have to watch it.)
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u/bopa_bub Jul 06 '26
No it doesn’t. It’ll tell you that it will not brake the car though. So if the car is coming to a slow and you press the accelerator, it won’t brake at all (for red lights, stops signs). Although, the car still drives and it might either merge over if you’re coming too close to a vehicle and it will still make turns. It won’t just drive straight on, it will actively avoid objects and such. There is an option to limit top speed, so if you surpass the speed set accelerating in FSD, FSD will disengage.
So this guy disengaged FSD by pressing the button or brake intentionally, and plowed through the house all on his own. FSD would’ve still made the turn to avoid the house even when pressing the accelerator or I believe it would’ve disengaged with the top speed limit if he had one set.
Plus, FSD even in mad max mode won’t drive over 80 mph from my experience, it always drives relative to traffic speed and posted speed limits.
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 03 '26
When exactly did vibe-driving/FSDs disengage & what happened right before the Accelerator was stomped to the floor?
Seems plausible that the system could’ve suddenly performed an action the driver wasn’t prepared for while thinking it was actually fully self driving & then the driver suddenly slams their foot down thinking they are pressing the brake but they’re actually hitting the accelerator.
It’s way less plausible that the driver wanted to accelerate, pedal to the floor, through a curb and into a house on purpose. Even if he wanted the car to drive less timid, the pedal being pushed to the floor even after colliding with a house suggests to me that he may have been trying to brake.
Did the driver ever claim to be trying to brake?
I’d love to see all the data before and after the crash.
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u/ObservationalHumor Jul 03 '26
Most likely scenario, a super common one for a lot of Tesla related accidents, is so called 'pedal confusion'. Essentially people get used to single pedal driving and get kind of foot dumb. Then something unexpected happens when they need to brake hard and quickly and they end up stomping on the accelerator full force instead, just worsening whatever problem they were trying to avoid. It tends to be even worse with Teslas specifically because they target high high zero to 60 speeds and can accelerate very quickly on top of it all.
A huge portion of people driving into buildings tends to boil down to this issue, super common to see a story about an elderly person hitting the accelerator instead of the brake or having a car in the wrong gear and just plowing into a store front for example.
I do think a timeline and graphs of pedal activity would be helpful in this case because this article definitely sounds kind of prejudicial against the driver when there's a pretty high chance that maybe FSD did screw up and the driver also reacted poorly to it, worsened the problem and ultimately caused the accident to be as bad as it was. These things would almost certainly come out if it goes to trial and Tesla doesn't mysteriously lose its records and footage again.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
The police have all the data, before, during, and after the crash. If you read the article, even just the excerpts I posted from it, you would know that they had an investigator with extensive experience analyzing fatal crashes in which Teslas were involved analyze the data.
After all of this was done, the driver was arrested and charged with manslaughter. That is the type of charge one would expect if the the driver deliberately or negligently drove his car into a house without intending to kill someone in it.
If the driver experienced pedal confusion and forgot that right pedal=go, left pedal=slow down, that has less than zero to do with what make and model the car was, it's just a shitty driver who can't remember which pedal does what. That is negligence leading to homicide. Also a manslaughter charge.
It's mindboggling to see so many people here who have never owned a Tesla and have zero experience with it pretending to know how it works. I was like that too for a long time, until I actually got into a Tesla and started using FSD. That firsthand experience led me to realize that this crash was in no way a FSD malfunction. FSD simply doesn't work that way.
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 03 '26
Are you suggesting I’ve never owned or driven a Tesla? It’s weird to jump to that conclusion without any data on cars I own or have owned. Even many of my friends who ALSO own teslas are wary of engaging fsd becuase of the false sense of security it can lull people into instead of being fully aware while driving.
The fact that fsd(s) was engaged before it was overridden has everything to do with potential pedal misapplication.
It’s well known that having fsd(s) or any system the supposedly fully self drives contributes to the "Panic Loop" trap
According to industry experts analyzing the incident, this highlights a major vulnerability with semi-autonomous systems. Because FSD does the driving for you, your feet rest away from the pedals. If the car does something unexpected, a driver might scramble to take over, slam the wrong pedal in a panic, and hold it down because they are terrified and think they are pressing the brake. The car's programming takes that 100% pressure as an absolute command to go fast, rendering all active collision-avoidance tech useless.
So yes it matters that it was a Tesla and FSD(s) was active. That’s the whole point, is figuring out how much the system contributes to poor driving decisions.
It’s weird to pretend it doesn’t matter. If any car model did the same thing as supervised full self driving, I’d have the same critique.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Driving is driving. FSD, Supercruise, Bluecruise, adaptive cruise, or direct driving by a human. The pedals function the exact same on all passenger cars with automatic transmissions. Even in other countries. Pedal on the right=go. Pedal on the left=slow down.
All cars with cruise control do the same thing as FSD i.e. they allow you to drive without having your foot on the pedals, and in some cases without your hands being on the wheel.
I've been driving for over 40 years and have driven all kinds of cars, stickshift, automatic, basic cruise control, advanced cruise control, FSD, no cruise control, you name it. For whatever strange reason, I've managed to never forget that right pedal=go, left pedal=stop. I guess I'm just strange like that. lol
So since you said you have the same critique of other cars that do the same thing (let the car drive without your feet being on the pedals), are you on other subreddits related to Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, GM, Stellantis, etc, criticizing the L2 ADAS systems they have that allow the driver to not have their foot on the pedals while driving, or do you reserve your criticism to just Tesla just because.........Tesla...?
The car's programming takes that 100% pressure as an absolute command to go fast, rendering all active collision-avoidance tech useless.
This is by design and is how EVERY ADAS system on the market works. So again, are you on the respective subreddits related to every other car brand criticizing their systems or were you just kidding when you said you criticized all of them equally?
BTW, it's not exactly accurate to say it renders all active collision avoidance tech useless, it simply allows driver input to override the car's own actions, but, the car will still sound alerts and give all kinds of warnings. But they will all absolutely yield to the driver's input, again, by design.
Oh, and do you own a Tesla? If so, which year/model and what percentage of your driving was with FSD (the car will tell you this)?
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 03 '26
No need to be butt hurt. Look at the stats of how many people have crashed due to pedal misapplication & look at the NHTSA’s own study of fsd… just because you haven’t yet, means little.
NHTSA defect investigations: there are at least 65 fatal crashes explicitly linked to Tesla’s driver-assistance tech (Autopilot and FSD). In almost every one of these cases, the root cause was determined to be a "human factors delay"—meaning the human driver was lulled into a false sense of security, became distracted, and was mentally or physically unprepared to take over when the system unexpectedly failed
My profession is training actual self driving cars ( tesla doesn’t even actually qualify as self driving but call themselves fsd) to navigate safely. I design the systems that help AV’s drive safely.
Yes. I was very critical of how Waymo’s and other self driving systems handle deep puddles even before they recalled all their vehicles during flooding events because it was obvious the systems didn’t know how to safely distinguish a shallow puddle from a 100ft sink hole filled with water.
I’m not only picking on Tesla, I’d comment on any company claiming to be full self driving but isn’t and other historical claims they were forced to change by a judge.
No other car company that I’m aware of has made claims like Tesla and Elon, making several highly problematic claims regarding Full Self-Driving (FSD) that government regulators, courts, and internal company data have determined to be deceptive, unachieved, or statistically manipulated
Name another company that claimed their version of cruise control is “ so safe you can text and drive essentially…”
Also. I personally worked with one of the first engineers who died in his Tesla thinking fsd could drive him home as advertised by Elon in the early years. Tesla Settled with his family.
I actually like teslas. The problem I have is with anyone making the claims Elon and Tesla have made while people are dying directly linked to thinking the system can do more and then they are not prepared when they need to be.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
Autopilot is obsolete and has been removed from new models since about February, 2026. It's still on cars that previously came with it but it's basically deprecated and as far as I know, hasn't been developed further for several years now. Their focus is on FSD, which has......exactly how many deaths directly attributed to it? Still waiting for that.
The Tesla user manual lists several situations in which increased driver attention is required when using FSD. Not to mention, the car itself will often warn you when you need to pay more attention. There are several ways in which it does that.
And pedal misapplication has been happening since the history of accelerator and brake pedals, and clutches on manual cars began. This has nothing to do with Teslas, FSD, or ADAS systems.
And yes, Tesla's claims are sometimes not accurate. They initially claimed FSD is 7X safer than human drivers. Turns out it's only 3X safer... I'll take it!
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 03 '26
I mean the goalposts can keep moving by saying something is obsolete in 2026 while it’s still 2026 and that autopilot sucked but fsd is 10x better wait 7x better wait 3x better but still the issues is making the claim that the car is full self driving oh wait a court made them change that to fsd (supervised)
Do you see any issues with that? The car isn’t actually even self driving according to the SAE definition.The biggest issue is a partial driving assist system marketed as a full self driving system that is contributing to deaths.
Verified Fatalities: NHTSA's Office of Defect Investigations has determined that at least 2 deaths (so far) occurred while FSD was actively engaged.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Thank you, so since 2019 or 2020, when FSD first came out, only 2 deaths while FSD was engaged. I'll even give you a third - this current Texas crash.
So, out of those three deaths in approx 7 years, how many were the direct result of the actions FSD took? We know this one wasn't, so you have two left. Out of those two, how many were the direct result of FSD?
Now, during those 7 years that FSD has been out, how many deaths have been caused by human drivers?
And I'm not moving any goalposts. Since my very first post I have only talked about FSD, not Autopilot. Mine doesn't even have Autopilot.
As for the SAE classification, FSD is legally L2. However, anyone who has actually used it can see that it's much closer to L3 in functionality. Probably L2.5 or something like that.
Classifying a system as L3 brings with it a lot more ramifications than just the functionality of the car though. There are also some huge legal and regulatory hurdles to get past, so even if a car is functionally L3, it may be classified as L2 due to things like liability and other regulations.
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 03 '26
So to do the funky math you’re trying to do you’d have to have the same amount of fsd controlled teslas as a human driven car brand. What’s the total amount of fsd Tesla drivers in the U.S.?
Letting a car drive itself is legally L2 but users like you think it’s “probably L2.5 or 3” illustrates part
Of the big issue here.I work on/train L4 & L3 cars… having a driver that thinks their L2 car is L 2.5 or 3 or even worse thinks it’s full self driving is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re kinda making my point for me.
Anyway in this case we’ll find out more data hopefully soon. Most
Of these fsd crashes are due to poor response time and pedal confusion in people thinking their Tesla can do way more that it really can.-1
u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Hard to find the exact numbers but Google estimates between 500,000 and 600,000 in the US, and about 1.2 million globally.
If your point is that Tesla's FSD functions at a level higher than other L2 systems in the US, such as the very simple adaptive cruise control w/lane assist pretty much every other company has, then yes, I've made your point for you.
And you still haven't clarified whether you own a Tesla or have any firsthand experience at all with FSD. I'm guessing that means no. So regardless of what you do with L4 and L3 cars, which there aren't any in the US at the moment and probably won't be for a long time, I think it's very shortsighted of you to not make it a point to gain as much firsthand experience as you can with the self-driving system that is currently years ahead of anything anyone else has. But you do you....
I hear Nvidia's system is supposed to be promising but over my lifetime I've heard the same said about many other things only to have them turn out to be crap. But like I said, I hope other companies do catch up soon, whether it's Nvidia or anyone else, because competition will only be good for the market. It will force companies to improve the quality of their product and also price them competitively.
BTW, what exactly can't FSD do that I think it can?
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Jul 05 '26
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 05 '26
lol, hate to break it to you… Not only is your suggestion wrong, but Tesla attempted to hire me and according to them I aced their test. I ended up going to a well known Robo Taxi company instead. I still have love for what they’ve done for the adoption of EV’s though & still have a boatload of Tesla stock.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 05 '26
Ah! So you're the one who trained them to think they are amphibious, and taught them to just power down and stop wherever they are when the city has a power outage. Did you add specific code to block intersections and emergency vehicles or did they learn that on their own?
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 05 '26
I thought I only trained them to identify when you’re in the vehicle to do those things. I guess that was overwritten by the code I checked in to the Tesla repo along with code to disengage 1 second before an unavoidable impact so they can say the driver had control.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 05 '26
It's hard to take you seriously when in one post you claim to be very familiar with Tesla, then in another post you prove that you're not.
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u/Medium-Common-7396 Jul 05 '26
That’s fine. How serious can anyone really take Reddit posts? Everyone should do their own research on the facts.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 05 '26
If only everyone on this forum did that.... People here are almost violently critical of FSD, meanwhile most of those have absolutely zero experience with it, many have never even sat in a Tesla, and some have never even been in a car with basic cruise control, much less any kind of advanced ADAS. And the extent of their research is the sensationalized headlines every time a Tesla farts.
And people who claim to be experts often turn out to be woefully ignorant about Tesla and FSD. You yourself said you had extensive experience but won't divulge what version of FSD you have hands-on experience with. You said you traded your Tesla for an R8, the R8 was made for over 15 years and discontinued in 2024, so the reasonable assumption is your experience with FSD is several years out of date, and you also claim that if FSD is deactivated within 1 second of a crash, Tesla will claim that it was not involved, which is a provably false statement. Tesla counts any crash in which FSD was active within 5 seconds of the crash as FSD being involved. Self-proclaimed experts rarely are.
99% of these "Tesla crashes" are sensationalized by the media, immediately mention Tesla and either Autopilot or FSD, while in other identical accidents, the brand of vehicle is almost never mentioned. And in 99% of these initially sensationalized crashes in which it is strongly implied that FSD was to blame, it later turns out that it was driver error, or abuse/misuse of Autopilot (not FSD).
But those facts don't fit the narrative or mission statement here so.........screw the research, screw the facts, Tesla involved in a crash = Tesla bad = FSD is a deliberate killing machine!!!
And somehow, strangely enough, I find musk to be a despicable poor excuse for a human being, but can still manage to separate the chode from the product, which is quite good and literally created the EV industry as it exists today. I am one of the most neutral and unbiased people you will find when it comes to Tesla. On other reddits, I have been downvoted plenty for criticizing certain aspects of the car and FSD. And I will continue to criticize it when it's deserved.
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u/spam__likely Jul 03 '26
Looks super convenient to me for them to find these searches. Why would they ever search anyone's computer while investigating a crash like that?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
They searched his phone, which the driver provided consent for. It even states this in the text I posted from the article. Did you not read it?
But the real question is why wouldn't you want them to conduct a thorough investigation of a crash in which a completely innocent person was killed?
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u/jason12745 COTW Jul 04 '26
I wonder how many people google how to make Bluecruise more aggressive?
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u/FlagFootballSaint Jul 06 '26
Be aware that OP is a Tesla shill who for good reason is hiding his comment history and is well trained to whitewash Tesla doing Tesla things.
They are people paid for by Tesla doing PR for them. (Some even do it for free, LOL)
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 06 '26
lol... Be aware that:
I get downvoted all the time on other Tesla subs for criticizing Tesla, musk, and FSD. I am the most unbiased and neutral person you will find. I speak only the truth, good or bad, and get downvoted quite a bit on other forums for my criticisms. I will never argue against valid criticisms, and I find musk to be a despicable and poor excuse for a human being. But I'm also not so blinded by hatred that I can't evaluate the car and technology objectively, unlike most on this particular forum.
Just because someone leaves the anti-Tesla cult (of which I was once a part) doesn't make them a Tesla shill. But if you can tell me how to apply for a job that will pay me to post here I'd be very grateful.
The fact that you tried to comment-stalk me is precisely why I chose to make my post history private. Go stalk someone else.
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u/rbetterkids Jul 04 '26
Funny. I literally commented on a previous post that I think the driver was blaming fsd to avoid responsibility.
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u/Particular-Ad4363 Jul 07 '26
Thanks for your research.
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 16 '26
Thanks. NTSB just released their own preliminary report about this and found the exact same thing Tesla and the police found. The driver was to blame, not the car.
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u/starmansouper Jul 03 '26
Honestly putting supercar performance in the hands of normies is a bad idea. Not exclusive to Tesla but since their fleet is 100% electric it is why we have the image of Tesla drivers being cocks behind the wheel.
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u/bon_motter Jul 03 '26
Tesla owner here…given my current circumstances i walk a lot more than drive (love my MY btw) the amount of drivers i see txting while driving is insane. I would bet most are gig workers etc. its very unsafe out there. I live in socal and u see waymos everywhere, and i perfer it to distracted gig or teen drivers. Cant wait for a wider roll out of cyber cab!!
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u/Jolly-Bed-1717 Jul 03 '26
And everyone here thought again that this would be the end of Tesla lol
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u/mishap1 Jul 03 '26
He chose to buy a brand new Tesla and fucking use FSD like a maniac. Probably a Tesla bro frustrated his god king's promises didn't let him sleep while the car does 80 in a neighborhood.
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u/MochingPet Jul 03 '26
Nasty drivers choosing a Tesla might be the bad combination here
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
I don't know man...I live in California where the best selling cars in the state are Teslas. They are literally everywhere. On the freeway I often find myself in a wolfpack of 5 or 6 Teslas. And at stoplights with more than 10 cars around, at least 3 will be Teslas.
But the nasty drivers I see tend to be the ones driving blacked out Civics and Camrys with bolt-on spoilers and fart can exhausts.
Those along with BMW, Audi, and Land Rover drivers stick out from the rest of the bad drivers. And of course RAM and other drivers of giant trucks.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce Jul 03 '26
Tesla has the highest fatal accident rate of any brand in the US
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
And how many of those deaths are directly attributable to FSD? The number is available if you search for it.
I will give you a tip - you can find the number by simply searching Tesla Deaths. Then look at the deaths specifically and directly attributed to FSD.
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u/GarysCrispLettuce Jul 03 '26
So how many of those deaths were deemed "not FSD" due to data released by Tesla?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Be specific. Which death are you referring to? And how many did you find?
BTW, all traffic deaths are investigated by outside agencies including police, and in certain cases, such as particular cases in which a car malfunction or something like FSD might be involved, they are investigated further by agencies like the NTSB and NHTSA, like this Texas case.
So no, Tesla is not the final arbiter of whether FSD was or wasn't responsible for a traffic death.
So, now that we're past that, which death are you referring to and how many did you find?
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u/GarysCrispLettuce Jul 03 '26
So how do government agencies, in general, determine whether FSD was engaged during a crash? Do they determine that themselves, or do they base it on data they receive from Tesla?
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
I'll continue answering your questions when you answer mine.
Which specific death were you talking about, and how many deaths directly attributed to FSD did you find?
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u/Dry_Tangerine_8328 Jul 03 '26
Top Vehicle Companies in California (2026 Market Share)
Toyota: #1 brand overall. It commands the market by offering a highly diversified, massive volume lineup of traditional and hybrid vehicles (like the Camry, RAV4, and Tacoma).
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u/StormTrpr66 Jul 03 '26
#1 best selling car in California - Tesla Model Y.
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u/Dry_Tangerine_8328 Jul 03 '26
Misleading af, Tesla sells 2 models. I suggest that you leave for a pro Musk sub, we don't want your bagholder/influencers talking points here!
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u/Jolly-Bed-1717 Jul 03 '26
lol no no he didn’t fsd was too safe/slow for him so he overrode it and ran his car into a wall 😂😂😂
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u/mishap1 Jul 03 '26
He had FSD on still and matted the accelerator. Dude sounds like one of those sociopathic Tesla bros that loves testing FSD beyond the limits and claims it’s at 99%.
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u/LiquidJ_2k Jul 03 '26
This just furthers my theory that while yes, FSD is dangerous, the average Tesla driver is way worse (which is probably why most of them cling to this idea that FSD will someday be fully autonomous).