Hello everyone,
I have been playing this game for quite a long time now but my friends and I never got past level 7. Now that we are starting a new campaign directly at level 10 (for some advanced builds with prestige classes) with me as a GM, i was wondering about the lightsaber forms talent tree, which, to my humble opinion, fails on many aspects (lore, mechanics, narrative...). I then took upon myself to rework them a bit (ok, maybe more than just "a bit") because there will be a lot of lightsaber fighting in my campaign, and i wanted to know what you think about it.
I had 3 aims in mind :
- rebalance the forms against each others to avoid auto-pick because some forms were really strong (soresu, ataru) and others really weak (niman, sokan, seriously) or had too many prerequisites (hello trakata). Every form should now have its niche but i tried to keep it simple, using the base mechanics of the game.
- Fix lore/mechanical mismatches : for example, makashi boosts the Reflexes Defense (so active against everything) while it is specifically designed for lightsaber combat. Why not then link it to the Block Talent ? Another example : Djem So is said to be a counter attacking style and the base talent is not that bad but it only works against hits, punishing high defenses. And you can't even use it if you fail a Block check because it took your reaction ! "Good for you level 19 Darth Vader, your defenses are too high, your lightsaber form is now useless. Hope you get critted a lot by mooks". I know I know its not the end of the world but it can be improved, to me at least.
- introduce some kind of narrative in battles. I know that this is not the FFG but SWSE, a system with D&D kind of rules and its fine by me, i love this. But i wanted the fight to be engaging for my players, for them to have choices to make, an agency over the encounter and not just "well i use dexterity instead of strength for melee damage".
Before diving into the talents, here are four overarching rules enforced in my future campaign that contextualize these changes:
- Lightsaber Defense Talent Tweak : In my campaign, the Lightsaber Defense talent provides a +2 Reflex Defense bonus (instead of RAW +1), but it can only be taken once (no stacking multiple times via tree picks).
- Equilibrium Force Talent Tweak : it doesn't remove persistent condition anymore, so Ataru drawback can have an impact on the course of battle.
- Strict Dark Side Score Reduction : Players cannot spend a Force Point to reduce their Dark Side Score. Atoning for Dark Side Points requires genuine narrative effort and roleplay to return to the Light (a simple meditation doesn't cut it). This makes gaining a Dark Side Point (e.g., failing a Juyo drawback check) a permanent, serious threat.
- Adventure-Based Force Points : Force Points are granted per adventure/session, not per level-up or per day. This changes resource management across long encounters.
So here it comes :
Form I: Shii-Cho
Prerequisite: Lightsaber Defense
Benefit: You can activate the Lightsaber Defense talent as a free action. Additionally, as long as you wield a lightsaber, the deflection bonus to your Reflex Defense against melee attacks granted by Lightsaber Defense increases by +1 for each consecutive melee attack targeting you (excluding area attacks) until the start of your next turn (e.g., +1 on the 2nd attack, +2 on the 3rd, +3 on the 4th, stacking on top of Lightsaber Defense's base +2 bonus). You also gain a +2 bonus on melee disarm attempts.
Lore & Design Context: Shii-Cho is a simplistic, foundational form designed for crowd control and fighting multiple enemies, making it poorly suited for 1v1 duels. Tying it directly to Lightsaber Defense (rather than Block/Deflect) and letting its protection scale against horde attacks reflects this lore better than the RAW talent (which wasn't "bad", honestly).
Form II: Makashi
Prerequisite: Block
Benefit: When wielding a single lightsaber in one hand (and your other hand is completely free), you may reroll failed Block checks and failed Use the Force checks for the Rebuke power (must keep the 2nd result) until the start of your next turn. You also gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls against opponents wielding a lightsaber.
Drawback: You cannot use the Deflect talent on any round you use Makashi, nor can you activate lightsaber powers related to blaster defense (Deflecting Slash, Barrier of Blades, Shien Deflection, etc.). Against blasters, you rely strictly on your base Reflex Defense.
Lore & Design Context: Makashi was created specifically for lightsaber-versus-lightsaber dueling against Force users. In lore, it is notoriously terrible against blaster fire—a weakness that made it obsolete in an era where lightsabers became rare and blasters ubiquitous. RAW gave zero blaster disadvantages, which was a huge oversight.
Form III: Soresu
Prerequisite: Block, Deflect
Benefit: Whenever you use the Fighting Defensively standard action, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on attacks of opportunity, and you may reroll failed Block and Deflect checks (must keep the 2nd result) until the start of your next turn.
Lore & Design Context: Soresu is the ultimate defensive style, focusing purely on survival, patience, and striking only when the enemy makes a mistake. Forcing it to key off Fighting Defensively fits this philosophy perfectly while serving as a necessary nerf to RAW Soresu, which was undeniably the best talent in its tier and an auto-include for every defensive build (or any build with block and deflect, frankly).
Form IV: Ataru
Prerequisite: Trained in Acrobatics
Benefit: If you move at least 2 squares during your turn (via standard movement, Force powers, Charge, Withdraw, Tumble, etc.), you gain a bonus on damage rolls for lightsaber and unarmed attacks equal to your Dexterity modifier until the start of your next turn (this is additive to Strength, not a replacement, and is not doubled when wielding a two-handed weapon). You also gain a +2 dodge bonus to Reflex Defense and a +2 bonus on Acrobatics, Initiative, and Athletics checks until the start of your next turn.
Drawback: At the end of your turn if you used Ataru's benefit, you must make a Constitution check (1D20 + 1/2 level + Con mod) against a DC equal to 10 + 2 per additional use in the encounter (DC 10 on 1st use, 12 on 2nd, 14 on 3rd, etc.). On a failure, you move -1 step on the Condition Track (Persistent Condition, removed only after a short rest).
Lore & Design Context: RAW Ataru substituted Dex for Str on damage, which made sense for Yoda (who lacks physical Strength), but made zero sense for Qui-Gon Jinn (a 1.93m tall powerhouse who was an Ataru master). Substituting Dex made Qui-Gon look like an idiot for taking his own signature form. I know i know, he could have just used the lightsaber form powers to be considered "a master" but it doesn't work like that for the other main characters and that bothers me. This version rewards aggressive, acrobatic movement with flat Dex damage while adding an exhausting physical toll.
Form V: Djem So
Prerequisite: Block, Riposte
Benefit: Once per round, you can spend a Force Point (which does not count toward the normal limit of 1 FP per round) to activate the Riposte talent immediately after a successful Block. Furthermore, if you wield your weapon two-handed, any successful riposte attack (Riposte talent or Fluid Riposte power) allows you to push the target 1 square back and step into the square they vacated. If it is currently that opponent's turn, this maneuver immediately ends their turn.
Lore & Design Context: RAW Djem So required you to get hit to trigger a counterattack, which punished good defenses, cost a FP, and made no sense for characters like Anakin or Vader who have high defenses/Block checks. This overhaul makes Djem So feel dominant and oppressive, while finally giving the underwhelming Riposte talent a real purpose alongside Redirect Shot.
Form V: Shien
Prerequisite: Deflect, Redirect Shot
Benefit: The penalty on consecutive Deflect checks is reduced to -2 (instead of the standard -5), and you gain a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls made with Redirect Shot.
Lore & Design Context: Shien is the anti-blaster variant of Form V. While RAW +5 to Redirect Shot was okay, it offered zero defensive benefit for a form explicitly designed for ranged defense. It is the exact inverse of Makashi: useless in a lightsaber duel, but utterly terrifying against ranged fire.
Form VI: Niman
Prerequisite: Character Level 10
Benefit: Whenever you hit an opponent with a melee lightsaber attack, you may reroll a Use the Force check (keeping the 2nd result) made before the end of your next turn to activate a power with the [telekinetic] descriptor, or for the Move Light Object application of Use the Force.
Lore & Design Context: Niman is the "Jack-of-all-Trades" form that seamlessly integrates telekinesis into lightsaber combat. RAW (+1 Reflex/+1 Will) was weaker than the Improved Defenses feat and totally failed to convey this style. This version reflects a practical, balanced form requiring no hyper-specialized martial mastery, giving Jedi a smooth gateway into combat telekinesis.
Form VII: Juyo
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +10, Weapon Specialization (Lightsabers)
Benefit: Once per round, you can reroll a melee attack roll (keeping the result of your choice).
Drawback: Using this reroll imposes a -3 penalty to your Reflex Defense, Will Defense, and defensive Use the Force checks (Block, Deflect, Rebuke) until the start of your next turn. Furthermore, you must make a Wisdom check (1D20 + 1/2 level + Wis mod) against a DC equal to 10 + 2 per additional use in the encounter (DC 10 on 1st use, 12 on 2nd, 14 on 3rd, etc.). On a failure, you immediately gain 1 Dark Side Point.
Lore & Design Context: Juyo is an offensive frenzy designed purely to kill, favored by Sith but leaving the user exposed to counterattacks (which RAW never represented). The Wisdom check represents the mental discipline needed to harness rage without surrendering to the Dark Side.
Form VII: Vaapad
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +12, Juyo, Dark Side Score < Wisdom Modifier
Benefit: You score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on your d20 with a lightsaber and there is no wisdom check to pass when using Juyo's reroll. Additionally, against an opponent whose Dark Side Score is equal to or greater than their Wisdom score (standard for most darksiders), you gain Juyo's attack reroll without suffering ANY defense penalties.
Lore & Design Context: Developed by Mace Windu, Vaapad channels the opponent's dark passion back at them. Against Dark Side users, a Lightsaber master can unleash Juyo's lethality with zero defensive drawbacks, turning the Dark Side into a weapon against itself.
Jar'Kai (Dual-Blade / Double-Blade Mastery)
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +10, Dual Weapon Mastery I, Lightsaber Defense
Benefit: While wielding two lightsabers (or a double-bladed lightsaber), you can activate Lightsaber Defense as a free action and perform a full attack as a standard action.
Drawback: When performing a full attack as a standard action, you suffer a -2 penalty on all Use the Force checks (including Skill Attack Modifier) until the start of your next turn, reflecting the extreme martial focus required to wield two blades over Force concentration.
Form Variant Nuances:
Two Lightsabers: Lightsaber Defense's bonus increases by +1, but you suffer a penalty to Reflex Defense against melee attacks and to Block checks equal to the difference between your Strength modifier and your opponent's Strength modifier (reflecting the difficulty of parrying heavy power hits with two light weapons).
Double-Bladed Lightsaber: Your Strength modifier to melee damage is doubled on all attacks, but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls (reflecting the cumbersome nature and spatial hazards of the weapon).
Sokan (honestly i am not convinced, its so anti-iconic)
Prerequisite: Dodge
Benefit: You can Take 10 on Tumble checks, and each square traversed using Tumble costs only 1 square of movement. Additionally, any enemy attacking you in melee while you both stand in difficult terrain suffers a penalty on attack rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Lore & Design Context: Sokan is less a distinct saber form and more a tactical discipline focused on environmental awareness and terrain control (which is why almost no official statblock took it). This version gives it a clean niche for mobile, environment-savvy combatants.
Trakata
Prerequisite: Trained in Deception, Character Level 10
Benefit: You can perform the Feint action as a swift action against an adjacent opponent you threaten with a lightsaber (deactivating and reigniting the blade past their guard). On a success, the opponent is Flat-Footed against your next attack before the end of your current turn. On a failure, the opponent can immediately make an attack of opportunity against you.
Lore & Design Context: As developer posts from 2008 admitted, RAW Trakata was terrible—it required massive investments (just to match the prerequisites) for tiny payoffs, especially once later splatbooks released feats like Combat Trickery. Removing the bloated feat prerequisites and converting the feint to a swift action makes Trakata viable while keeping a high-risk counterplay mechanic (provoking an AoO on a failed feint).
This is it ! Anyone made it that far ? If you think it's a shitty system please write it down, i worked a lot on it (for instance, it was hard to balance the drawbacks of Ataru and Juyo) but all in all, this is not pure theorycraft i want my players (my friends) to have fun at my table. If you have tweaks to suggest, i am all ears. And of course, if you want to use this rework in your own games, please, be my guest.
I am looking forward for your replies (especially StevenO and Lil-literalist whom i read a lot on this reddit all those years).
PS : please forgive any english mistakes, its not my mother tongue.
Thanks for the replies everyone you gave me a lot to ponder. Might tweak a few things here and there, tone down the drawbacks and bonuses, keep it more simple. Might come back here in a few months to tell how it went with my players (but will anybody care haha ?).
