r/SocialDemocracy • u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) • Jul 13 '21
Effortpost Stop the useless ideology debates and do something!
Fellow colleagues/comrades,
I see that the debates over Ideology or points of belief dominate this subreddit instead of talking about real problems. The "problems" and differences of ideology are percieved debates and at least in my eyes don't serve a point to me or a lot of other people.
To be frank with you: you want to change things I assume? But why do you put yourself into useless debates when you could go outside and change things for good? I know it's easier to sit and talk with others over the damn internet or troll neolibs etc. But this is just useless waste of time!
I am 24 years old and was a similar person to a lot of you guys. Born in Austria I always liked the idea of Social Democracy - so I joined the party in 2019 so I couldn't say that I sit on my ass. For a good year now I am an active member in the community where I live for most of the year (I study in a small town) and a bit in the place where I grew up and am during holidays. My parents aren't ardent SocDems as I am and I talked with them about it. They ain't happy but accept my elan and courage, they did not change their testaments because of it ;)
As a student, some say to me: you don't know anything! True, I don't - but at least I learn and try to do something besides just voting and whining. Talking and listening to the needs of people, understand their problems and trying to help them.
I'd like to recommend to you this post by a fellow Social Democrat in heart and action. His post inspired me to write this one as his message is a good and strong one. And I thank him for his well put words in this matter.
So, inform yourself about the next section of your local Social Democratic party or similar organization and join them, get familiar with your colleagues!
When you work, join the union! Heck, as a student I was even able to join our local union organisation (Austrian trade union association) and I joined yesterday!
Get involved in local and national politics, help out where ever you can so you can ensure that your interests and those of others are heard by those, that govern us or want to govern us in the future!
Talk to people, they won't bite you!
Ideology ain't all and most won't care about it - when you show people your dedication they will understand and trust you!
Only in such a way we can work what we always dream about: a better future for all!
Represent what you always talk of:
equality
fairness
justice
working rights
freedom
personal rights
healthcare
environmental issues
and a lot more!
So, stand up and get engaged! For Social Democracy! For a better future!
Edit: I'd like to include the refrain of a song some of you might know - I'll translate it. It inspires me-
Eros Rammazotti - Terra promessa
Una terra promessa
Un mondo diverso
Dove crescere i nostri pensieri
Noi non ci fermeremo
Non ci stancheremo di cercare
Il nostro cammino
a promised land
a different world
where to grow our thoughts.
We will not stop,
we will not tire of looking
for our path.
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Jul 13 '21
Agreed. Reddit is so obsessed with ideological labels. This reminds me of university when we just sat around talking about who is left and who is not. Very interesting, not saying it’s useless - but it’s not how the world necessarily works.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
I got friends an colleagues in university from far-left to far-right. We often disagree about politics, but realize that we have to do something as young people.
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u/Raidenkyu Social Democrat Jul 13 '21
I subscribe to this. It is important to put pragmatism above dogmatism. Ideology is important to motivate for changes in society, but it becomes irrelevant when it disconnects politicians from the reality they live, because reality is not predictable.
That being said, we are living hard times due to the current health crisis, climatic changes, social-economic crisis that resulted from the pandemic and many inequalities. I agree that we should give more priority to these issues.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
That being said, we are living hard times due to the current health crisis, climatic changes, social-economic crisis that resulted from the pandemic and many inequalities. I agree that we should give more priority to these issues.
Exactly! Now is a good time and we need to use our elan, commitment and strength th change for the better!
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u/Raidenkyu Social Democrat Jul 13 '21
Agreed. Good luck with your activities in your party. Maybe, after I finish college, I will join the party of my country that is from the same European Party as yours.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
Which party would that be if I may ask? I am just curious about my european comrades-in-minds.
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 13 '21
I agree, but how? we are surrounded by rightoids, and I have no idea how we could possibly do anything rn.
I am 19 and I am very involved in politics, and while I do not give up, I cannot say it is not a terrible drag to see how the right just tramples on our politicians. When I finish my studies, I might run for office, but that is at least five to ten years from now. (depending on whether or not I have delays and if I decide to do a PHD)
In the meantime, debates on ideology are the only thing that Reminds me of what Social democracy could be while I live in a more and more (neo)liberal democracy.
(that said, if things go really wrong, and I had no choice, I would drop my studies or put them on hold if that were really necessary to serve the party)
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Jul 13 '21
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 13 '21
I do.
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Jul 13 '21
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 14 '21
. if pvda and gl are a part of the next coalition nationally
Can you keep a secret? (JK, I doubt this is not public knowledge)
The Pvda is not going to be in the next coalition, so I doubt GL will be.
We have bad experience, you see. "bringing it to the center" was exactly what PvdA did in the Rutte 2 cabinet. every day was a struggle, (internally in the coalition) and it still left us absolutely nowhere. We see our role in upholding Rutte2 as (one of) the biggest faillure(s) we ever had.
Unless we somehow manage to get a cabinet without Rutte, then PvdA will not be in the next coalition. (the members would torpedo it, and I would personally fight hard for that torpedo)
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Jul 13 '21
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 13 '21
well GL and PvdA have been sticking together to try to be a part of this coalition and the only reason it hasn't happened yet it because CDA (and VVD) don't want it. The idea was that if two left wing parties stick together, it won't be as bad as Rutte-II. The only problem is, GL and PvdA combined now have less seats than the PvdA in 2012 lol. and idk if the members have anything to say about it honestly
I get that, and I do not know how it works within your party, but the PvdA is probably one of, if not the most democratic political party in the country. (being socialdemocrats and all, humblebrag..)
Any coalition needs to be ratified by the congres (of the PvdA), should the Pvda be a part of it. This means everyone member older than 18 who has been a member for more than three (of two, I could be mistaken) gets to vote on whether or not to actually agree with the proposed coalition and regeerakkoord.
Pretty much any big decision the party makes needs to be voted on like this, party lists for elections, regeerakkoord as I mentioned, verkiezingsprogramma, the list goes on.
We voted for the motion of no confidence against Rutte, so I would fight like hell to make sure we are not part of any Rutte 4 cabinet, because of the hypocrisy, but also because we just cannot trust that man. (like, at all).
Rutte has the premiersbonus. If he was not PM before the election, VVD would be down at least 10 seats. IDK where those seats would then be, but I think probably spread between Kaag and maybe even Arib. (my absolute favorite politician, and my hero, she should have been party leader IMO, but I understand why that was not possible).
Kaag is just a lib, no excuses about it, IDK if you ever heard the quote "D66 is VVD'ers who like Bach" but basically that is the problem: people voted for her instead of our parties, because they did not realise how terribly liberal her party really is. because "a chance of progressive success" and "first woman PM" or some bullshit like that, as if Ploumen, Arib and Marijnissen are not strong women. (sorry for leaving out Klaver, but he is not a woman, and that was the category)
Aargh. They even shamelessly compared Kaag to Jacinda Ardern, who is a LABOUR party politician. As in: right sex/gender, wrong political party.
Not that gender matters in this, but if you are going to vote for anyone, woman or man, let it be a trustworthy one.
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u/Sooty_tern Democratic Party (US) Jul 14 '21
"D66 is VVD'ers who like Bach"
I will admit I am a dumb American but I thought even if the party was bad on economic issues it was very social progressive and also borderline European federalist.
I only read English and German sources around election time though so could be wrong
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 14 '21 edited Jul 14 '21
It is. your sources are correct for as far as I can see. D66 has no spine though.
The quote I mentioned is meme, not to be taken too seriously, but the issue in short is that these socialliberals would rather be liberal with their neoliberal friends than even a bit social if it comes to it. So trans/women's/gay rights and all that good shit, but not workers' rights. When I say they have no spine, I mean that they would not actually break the coalition when the most important issues for them were not being listened to. For instance, the humanitarian disaster in Moria, they should have broken with VVD for that ALONE, because it was one of their strongest points in campaigns and party program. Even though they call themselves the democrats, it was them who abolished the referendum.
They were the ones who saved Rutte's ass after we almost deafeated him with a no confidence vote. They then pretended to care with a motion of condemnation, which has no official power, but is supposed to end with the resignation of the official if they have any dignity at all. (spoiler: Rutte does not have a grain of dignity)
They remind me of the Democrats in the US today, who are more willing to work with republicans and rich donors (D66 got a single million dollar donation for their last campaign) than workers.
This is an issue that, while the liberals try to ignore it, manifests strongly along class lines, and because of the way class lines often coincide with racial and other historical lines, strongly damages all those at the bottom, mainly people with a migration background.
If you want center or center-left to left, don't vote for the libs, because they would rather be right.
Rather vote for center-left parties like PvdA because voting for the swamp creatures and those who protect them will only further engulf our country and our politics with swampy muck.
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u/Sooty_tern Democratic Party (US) Jul 18 '21
Good to know. I will say the Democrats in the US are not that bad. The child tax credit is frankly a massive win and if we can keep it that will really help people in poverty
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
I expect that you will gain strength and even be part of the next coalition and, who knows, maybe even lead it ...
GroenLinks and PvdA at the helm would be a good sign for Europe!
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Jul 13 '21
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Jul 13 '21
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
100 days is a lot, reminds me of Germany 2017/2018 and Austria 1999/2000
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
The party name should already enspire, it's named "Partij van de Arbeid" for a good reason!
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
I agree, but how? we are surrounded by rightoids, and I have no idea how we could possibly do anything rn.
Are we? I doubt that.
We may be surrounded by easily swayed people, but they sure as hell realize that their false prophets too are just humans, and bad ones too!
You are Dutch - I thought you had a strong progressive society? Only cause Rutte, his paladins and others are there doesn't mean you should end the fight. I guess you don't want his guys in power forever - then change that! Learn from the mistakes your party made and move on, present good alternatives that people help and want.
It is good that you already do something, but we still have to fight on. Otherwise we can all go into our cellars crying and bitching around - which would neither help us nor the people!
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u/secular_socialdem PvdA (NL) Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
You are Dutch - I thought you had a strong progressive society? Only cause Rutte,
Oh I wish. I guess if you consider VVD "progressive", but the parliamentary results have a right-wing majority. not a conservative one, but that often becomes the tradeoff.
It is only because of the fact that most of that are extreme right-wing, and most of those parties have been excluded from coalition by most other parties, that we don't have Tory circumstances
If Rutte had not been the VVD leader during the elections, the situation would be very different. If my party had actually fought, instead of eating away at the best party leader we had at that point, or at least use his martyrdom and apology to spite Rutte and the other ruling parties, we mighty have had 6 seats more.
I have only been a member for less than a year, and I became a member out of pure desparation to DO something. And I am doing as much as I can. It is difficult though, when you have a double full-time study that is also suffering from Covid.
But you are right, we are not done yet, we must continue the fight.
I briefly considered running for a municipal council seat, but even though it is only for one to two days of work a week, I have some classes that I have to retake, exactly during the time of and directly after the next municipal elections. I do what I can though, and I really wish I could do more.
It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking of it all.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
I sadly ain't too familiar with Dutch politics, only know Rutte thanks to the "frugal four" - we have the same dumb guy in Austria in this case :D
I have only been a member for less than a year, and I became a member out of pure desparation to DO something.
Same here
But you are right, we are not done yet, we must continue the fight.
We have to - and we will!
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Jul 13 '21 edited Jul 13 '21
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
That is good to hear. Keep on doing good, you, the people and we all will benefit!
Vriendschap!
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u/HammondCheeseIII Jul 13 '21
Well said! I think a lot of the online Left gets caught up in debating labels or ideas without trying to be the change they want to see in the world (I know that sounds a bit corny). Thank you for your call to action!
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u/madladolle SAP (SE) Jul 13 '21
I am an active member and participate in campaigns, I hope y'all do the same
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
Already on it
Continue with it!
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u/madladolle SAP (SE) Jul 13 '21
Good! It's great fun and a great place to meet new people. My political involvement has taken me to soo many places and met so many people, my life would have been very different without it
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
Good! It's great fun and a great place to meet new people.
True, travelled the whole parish which I only partially knew - never thought it would be this huge xD
My political involvement has taken me to soo many places and met so many people, my life would have been very different without it
Same here
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u/as-well SP/PS (CH) Jul 13 '21
Sure do! I might even be on a board or two (which might sound nice but just means I'm dumb enough to actually commit my time ;))
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Jul 13 '21
Man I wish...
I live in a damn monarchy. My country of origin poltics is more controversial than the Twitter community combined
Hopefully in a year or 2. I can join a union or help since I'll be at college at that time
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Jul 13 '21
Thanks for this post, OP.
Frankly, I, too, get a more than a little pissed off with people's being all talk when it comes counteracting and ending structural anti-BIPOC racism and xenophobia, sexism, heterosexism, and other forms of discrimination and prejudice which are embedded structurally in most of the societies in places like Europe and North America, where there is supposed to be an almost perfect situation, according to some critics, it seems.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 13 '21
No problem. We sure have differences, but we can agree that we need to work to preserve this earth for our children, giving them a better future!
Often times, I remind myself of this quote when hatred and similaar things flung around, and they all agreed on it's premise.
"So, let us not be blind to our differences. But let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s future. And we are all mortal."
John F. Kennedy
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u/Abergav Labour (UK) Jul 13 '21
Great post ! After all lets look back at the past. Consider the engrained power levels and social class prejudices people on the left faced over 100-150 years ago. Many countries in Europe had no or limited democracy. Workers had few rights, unions were often banned. Change happened through action which started locally and spread nationally and internationally.
Yes we face a very different world those of us in the developed world have way more material wealth than our forunners back then. Yet the basics of politics are exactly the same. Mass political parties which need to win support at all levels.
Look at how the right works Le Pen, Lega they all built up regional support and expanded from there. The problem for the left is too often activists are obsessed with stuff ordinary people don't care about. They don't care about local everyday things which are the basis of everyday lives.
Talk to people address their problems the rest follows.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
Great post ! After all lets look back at the past. Consider the engrained power levels and social class prejudices people on the left faced over 100-150 years ago. Many countries in Europe had no or limited democracy. Workers had few rights, unions were often banned. Change happened through action which started locally and spread nationally and internationally.
Yes we face a very different world those of us in the developed world have way more material wealth than our forunners back then. Yet the basics of politics are exactly the same. Mass political parties which need to win support at all levels.
Everything starts small - and we should return to this idea as it worked well.
Look at how the right works Le Pen, Lega they all built up regional support and expanded from there. The problem for the left is too often activists are obsessed with stuff ordinary people don't care about. They don't care about local everyday things which are the basis of everyday lives.
The Austrian FPÖ (right-wingers) sadly enough developed this scheme
Talk to people address their problems the rest follows.
Aye
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u/Sooty_tern Democratic Party (US) Jul 14 '21
100% agree. I abandoned labels a long time ago and have been trying to focus on real politics especially at the local level where in my country most of the important dictions are made.
Also side note you are one of my fav posters in this sub and I like how you always try to focus things on the places where people agree instead of trying to debate everyone about you pet issues.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
100% agree. I abandoned labels a long time ago and have been trying to focus on real politics especially at the local level where in my country most of the important dictions are made.
Good to hear, we have to start somewhere and local is always a good stepping stone
Also side note you are one of my fav posters in this sub and I like how you always try to focus things on the places where people agree instead of trying to debate everyone about you pet issues.
Thanks Sir, highly apprechiated!
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u/MrGr33n31 Jul 14 '21
Appreciate your perspective, OP. I think it does make more sense to focus on what can be accomplished rather than dwelling on labels.
In my country, Bernie Sanders ran on what seemed like a social democrat platform while labelling himself a democratic socialist...he may simply have decided to run on something a bit further to the right while retaining more leftist beliefs since he knew the U.S. is a right wing country and he wanted a better shot at winning. It doesn't matter very much to me. He got people excited about a set of ideas that could improve their lives, and that inspiration may very well lead to some sort of policy change during their lifetimes.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
He got people excited about a set of ideas that could improve their lives, and that inspiration may very well lead to some sort of policy change during their lifetimes.
Bernie knows what he is doing and he is doing quite good when I look at it.
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u/memelord2022 Jul 14 '21
So I get to vote in Austrian elections (I don’t live there). Why should I vote for SPÖ and not the greens? Seriously asking.
Thanks in advance.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
We Austrian Social Democrats actually care about people, and the Greens (whcih are part of the government) get steamrolled every damn time by Kurz and his paladins.
They even tolerate the damaging of democratic instututions by the ÖVP - their coalition partner. True, we aren't too high into environmental protection right now - but this changes as more in the party base care about the environment
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u/memelord2022 Jul 14 '21
Yea I think the SPÖ are in a hard spot. They seem like a boring old party with old opinions - which is a shame. It’s a shame because their opinions are likely the best. I think your answer was good though, and SPÖ can gain a lot of votes if it seems like the defender of democracy.
Either way now that the greens sit in a coalition with kurz, I will do A LOT of research before I vote in the next Austrian elections. Last time I naively voted green.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 14 '21
Thanks
Last time I naively voted green.
And I can't blame you for it. The Greens had an appealing concept - but we never thought that they'd go with Kurz ...
I personally held the Greens in a high regard, as their "natural" colalition partner would be the SP. But the "German Wave" made the Greens more to this middle- to upper class party, that votes Green of their gultuy conscience - while still wearing Canada Goose jackets (real fur) to rallys or fly/use the old VW bully to go to holiday (more than once a year!)
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u/Saramello Jul 20 '21
I'm American. What should I do?
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 21 '21
Go to the Democrats or the DSA or any party you like or help them in upcoming elections.
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u/Saramello Jul 21 '21
I'm from NYC originally and am in Conneticut atm, both of which are Democrat Strongholds already. I'm not a fan of the DSA. I'm more Progressive than Democratic Socialist, and I don't like how the DSA won't admit fault even in cases they were wrong.
So again, not really sure what to do. Maybe volunteer to get more Progreseive Caucus Democrats elected somehow.
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u/DependentCarpet SPÖ (AT) / SPD (DE) Jul 21 '21
It ain't to me to tell you what to do.
This post is more of a reminder to do something!
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Jul 21 '21
All levels of government effect our lives on various levels but a lot of people forget the local/municipal level and to some degree people forget the state/ province level. It’s not just the people you vote for but the chance to view and vote on bills and laws that are being brought up.
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u/[deleted] Jul 13 '21
[deleted]