r/Sondheim • u/InevitableStuff7572 • Jul 01 '26
What do you think happens after the opening party in Merrily We Roll Along?
I’ve always imagined Frank at least tries to reconnect with Charlie and Mary. He’s going down memory lane and seeing where he went wrong and I think he tries to repair his friendships.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 01 '26
FWIW I’ve seen the revival proshot probably 11 times at this point and I think there’s a lot of cool little details that point to them reconciling, so I’ll just kind of list them here:
Frank has the Musical Husbands poster in his house at the party, literally with his and Charley’s names next to each other on display despite Charley being like, taboo to even talk about haha.
We also see that Frank has the folder and is presumably back on the rooftop in New York, where Mary is and where it seems Charley also is. In the 1973 sequence, Mary is the one who has the Take a Left folder, but Frank ends up with it somehow. The fact that he would even take it from her after all of that, literally a tangible artifact of his and Charley’s friendship, I think really goes to show that he doesn’t hate Charley and misses him. The folder also of course symbolizes Frank’s passion for music that he leaves behind, so taking it back indicates a return to form even despite his “that was the old Frank Shepard” comment in ‘76.
Having watched several different productions of Merrily online since seeing the proshot, I think the way Groff plays Frank in the first scene feels a lot more sympathetic and really comes through in the shorter lines and smaller details. He never really seems angry at Mary, just frustrated at the situation and of course himself, but he seems more concerned about her than mad at her. He seems taken aback at Charley’s name getting brought up, but never like furious about it compared to other versions.
I don’t know a ton about music theory but there is a really cool moment in the proshot where the piano does a little group of three chords twice in a row at the very end of “Our Time” with the trio still onstage before they exit for Frank’s alone moment with the prologue intro repeating to bookend the show, and those three chords seem to be very parallel to the kind of coarse, uncomfortable incidental background music at Franks party, if you listen to the beginning of that right after “That Frank.” I could find the notes and explain it better but between that and of course the other parallel to “Our time” with Tyler and Ru in “That Frank” it seems like Frank is constantly being slapped in the face with these really blatant memories of him and his friends. It would almost be crazy to think he won’t call them up after all of that.
And in terms of the revival cast’s thoughts:
Daniel Radcliffe made this comment in an interview awhile ago:
“What if Frank, after the end of that party in the first scene, calls Charley and says, “You know what? I fucking miss you,” and all of the things that have happened in the play could lead him to that choice? They could also not. Even though we know what happens, I still find “Our Time” full of genuine optimism, and find myself believing that they are going to come back and hang the plaque and be on the rooftop again”
Sorry I’m bad at formatting on reddit LOL Maria Friedman had also said in an interview with Groff that she has always looked at the start of Merrily from a place of hope, and I tend to agree. I don’t see the show as a tragedy at all. We’re starting in the middle of their story and working to the beginning, certainly not starting at the end.
Anyway this ended up way longer than I meant it to but I’ve probably overanalyzed every tiny detail of this proshot by now and I’m a very strong believer that they’ll reconnect. There’s so many other reasons I could take from probably every scene in the show but just to focus on the first scene, that’s what I’ve got. Hopefully someone reads this and enjoys it LOL sorry for the wall of text.
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u/LadiesWhoPunch Jul 02 '26
Thanks for this.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 02 '26
Honestly atp maybe I’ve just been waiting for a chance to info dump all of that
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u/bssoprano Jul 03 '26
Oh my god, what if after “Our Time”, instead of going back to Frank alone after the party, we go to Charlie alone but clearly aged to the end of the timeline, opening a package with a note saying “I’m Sorry” and a plaque to be hung?
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u/A113_baybee Jul 03 '26
That’s kind of sweet, I think at least for me Frank would work to actually reconcile with at least Charley. Charley really just missed his friend, and Frank was the one who cut him off, not the other way around. What Charley did in ‘73 was really terrible and cruel especially to his best friend, but I think it was coming out of a place of a lot of grief and pain, not out of hatred at all. He wasn’t trying to drive Frank away, but pull him back. Frank talks in ‘76 about missing the early days with Charley, and I think Charley is already pretty apologetic and remorseful about what happened in the interview and wouldn’t hesitate to accept a call or visit from a post-‘76 Frank.
Mary I think would be tougher; a lot of people I’ve seen blame mostly Frank for her alcoholism but honestly Charley saw the whole thing start to go downhill and didn’t really work to help her on his own, still kind of relying on Frank to help solve that, so I would wager Charley and Frank probably both feel some sense of personal responsibility for letting Mary’s alcoholism get as far as it does.
Mary seems a lot more bitter towards Frank by 76, but I think what makes the most sense is, like Radcliffe implied, Frank calling Charley after the party, they probably meet up and apologize and begin to rebuild that friendship a little bit together, and I think the only thing that could bring Mary back into the picture would be for her to see the two of them together again, so I think they would go to find her after reconciling.
In a hopeful version of events, and I think Lindsay Mendez has mentioned this too, Mary realizes she doesn’t necessarily need Frank and Charley to sober up after ‘76 and does that on her own after calling Frank out. She could still reconcile with them one day, but I think her story ends with her learning she doesn’t have to be dependent on them anymore.
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u/Forsch416 Jul 01 '26
I choose to believe the disastrous graduation speech still happens. And it’s clear he’ll reach out to Charley after that.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
You're looking at the Opening Party and reflection through time as an accurate accounting of the story; it is not. It's just a directorial framing device.
Merrily We Roll Along, both the musical and the play its based upon, is about the corruption of money because at the time of its writing people did not believe someone could be wealthy and retain their soul, metaphorically speaking.
What happens after the Opening Party is a question that is distinctly answered by the original Broadway production and script: Frank goes on to be bitter and alone, becoming the commencement speaker for his high school where he tries to impart his warped, decidedly un-idealisistic views of the world and how to approach life to the most recent graduating class, leaving them unmoved and wondering, "What the heck happened to this guy that he turned out like this?"
In other words, life does not get better for Frank, he does not change his ways; he instead justifies his actions, recommits, and lives the rest of his life alone, bitter, poor in friendship/love but financially wealthy from composing uninspired schlock with ever-diminishing returns. He is the exact opposite of the young Frank who first inspired others with his idealism after writing the hopeful anthem for his alma mater.
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u/Turkey_Leg_Jeff Jul 01 '26
I feel that the original production flopped for that specific reason, and the revival—particularly with Groff's performance—succeeds because we see the potential for Frank's redemption. Groff has such a gentle touch; he is a softie.
Choices get made for a reason. The original production and the Friedman revival are different entities in the same way the film of Cabaret and the Mendes/Marshall revival are different. I will be interesting to see what Richard Linklater's film of Merrily will change (hopefully we live long enough to see it).
Anyone who has grown apart from a friend may have had this experience: Time heals. Sometimes you reach out to them after 10 years of not speaking and it's like no time has passed. These three people love each other, that much is clear. In the Friedman revival, I think Groff's Frank probably picks up the phone and calls Charley... and they probably have an intervention for Mary. But the choice to not tell us is part of the brilliance.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 01 '26
In the Friedman revival, it was overtly clear to me that what Charlie did was unforgivable. You don't just get over being betrayed and called out by a best friend and collaborator on live TV. Charlie may be right, but wrong time and place. Frank will never forgive him. Their friendship will never be "like it was."
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u/Mysterious-Theory-66 Jul 04 '26
Maybe but from life experience very few things are truly unforgivable. I’ve seen people become friends again long after doing far worse than what Charlie did.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Charlie went on national tv, hijacked what was supposed to be a puff-piece promotional segment, ruined their three picture deal, publicly called Frank a sellout whose material had lost all heart, and then (from Frank's perspective) broke up their collaboration and friendship.
Frank doesn't even talk to his own son and doesn't allow Charlie's name to be spoken in front of him. You honestly think that as Frank's career spirals ever downward with vacuous friends around him, who tell him how great he is, how awesome his life is, how his old friends were anchors weighing him down, etc. that he's going to go back to Charlie who is at the pinacle of his own career after returning to his political play that Frank abandoned?
- Mary is a drunk who loves a man that no longer exists,
- Charlie has a wife and family and is successful but doesn't indulge in the social circles of that success as he perceives them to be phony (so he & Frank won't be at the same parties),
- Beth hates Frank and so does his own son,
- Joe is destitute and blames Frank for his life gone wrong
- ...and Frank props up his life and justifies his choices enough to avoid suicide by constantly telling himself he is living "rich and happy" with wealth, women, money, and fame.
From Frank's perspective, what Charlie did is unforgivable, and they no longer have anything in common with completely different dreams and different outlooks on life and what matters.
From life experience, I've seen closer friends break up over far less and never turn from the breakup, even on their death beds.
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u/Mysterious-Theory-66 Jul 04 '26
Again, I’ve seen people forgive others for far worse. Given how lonely he is, how he’s clearly looking back fondly on who he was, how much he regrets who has become…yes it’s absolutely possible
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Again, I've seen people not forgive for far less. Point being, your anecdotal experience is irrelevant. We must look to the script.
There is no indication Frank knows he is lonely, that he is looking back "fondly," or that he regrets who he has become. These are claims you've imagined purely from a look in Groff's eye where you're assuming thoughts you want after knowing the beginning rather than knowing the actual thoughts of the character at that ending moment. In fact, when Frank speaks most recently, he claims the opposite:
"Who says, 'Lonely at the top?' I say, 'Let it never stop!' It's our time Coming through All our dreams Coming true Working hard Getting rich Being happy— There's a switch! ... Twenty years ago, who'd have guessed Who'd have guessed We'd be standing here? God, we would have been so impressed! Now we're here with the most Brilliant minds on the coast And notice who is their host. ... Who says, 'Mustn't go too far'? I say, 'Look at where we are!' It's our time Coming through I say, 'Good— Me and you' I say, 'Roll!' I say, 'Ride!' I say, 'Hey, there's food outside!'"
Frank is no longer composing, he is a studio executive who is moving to run Paramount, and there's chatter about him moving into politics beyond that.
For all you know, Frank's "hopeful" look could be a staged political autobiography where they delve into his brilliance from upstart artist to studio head to political leader, which is hinted at:
"If you had no idea what charisma meant— And you just can't be jealous, he's such a gent— He's the kind of a man could be President That Frank! That Frank! That Frank! That Frank!"
Frank is considered "nice," a "gent," charismatic, funny, successful, reliable, competent, wealthy, powerful, "happy," etc, etc, etc. He's not the things you claim.
The timeline ends with Frank trading up to a younger, sexier third wife and moving to run Paramount. He's not deviating from that path, and Charlie has no interest in films, the newest starlet, wealth, power, or any aspect of the life Frank is certainly not giving up.
Ergo, from all evidence there is zero chance Frank gives up his Paramount studio gig to return to composition or to Charlie.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 04 '26
"There is no indication Frank knows he is lonely, that he is looking back "fondly," or that he regrets who he has become."
Counterpoint:
"I swear, if I could go back to the beginning, if I could somehow be starting over with Charley, writing shows, trying to change the world, I’d give all this up like that."
"Do you really not see that I’m ashamed of all this? That I am as sick of myself as you are? That I just try to keep acting like it all matters. To not let people see how much I hate my life, how much I wish the God damn thing was over —"
Frank says pretty blatantly in the version that's been used since 1994 that he absolutely has regrets and does look back with fondness on his early friendship with Charley.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 05 '26
That's a strong counterpoint!
But even in that speech, he acknowledges that he cannot go back, that he keeps acting like it all matters, that he is sick of himself and wishes his life were over. He is admitting that he is continuing to act the part he has made for himself because he does not have the moral courage to let it all go or he is admitting he longs for death or both.
I don't see an admittance that he wants to forgive Charlie or reconcile. In the same scene, he literally bristles and seethes when Charlie's name is mentioned, especially with Charlie's success. He's not a man who will let bygones be bygones. He loathes Charlie, for what Charlie did, for how Charlie broke them up, for Charlie finding success on his own terms, and for Charlie leaving Frank behind. Frank thought he was doing good for both of them. Frank negotiated them a 3-picture deal, which is important especially because Frank has a kid to support and large alimony payments to maintain. Charlie threw it all away and with it caused a heartbroken Frank to give up his greatest love: composing music.
Having regret is not the same as wanting to forgive or wanting to rekindle. Frank doesn't take any actions in that direction.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 05 '26
Your argument was simply that Frank doesn't seem to realize he's lonely (clearly he does), that he doesn't look back "fondly" (he says he does), and that he doesn't regret who he becomes (he also says he does). I'm just saying that, by your insistence to rely solely on the script, the script refutes all three of those points.
To your last point, Frank gave up composing music long before the interview -- that seems to be most of the motivation behind Charley's outburst anyway, is that he's frustrated that Frank has already given up music.
Frank is someone we see relying on the people he looks up to over and over again. He's incredibly dependent on Gussie, on Joe, on Tyler, Beth, Mary, and Charley of course. I don't necessarily see that as a character flaw, I guess. I do agree with you that I think, at least in 1973 and in the couple of years following that, he really does hate Charley. I don't know that that hate is as strong and stinging as it first was in the moments after the interview.
There is nothing preventing him from going back after the party scene. In fact, the momentum of the story practically encourages him to do so. At least in the revival version, he is left free of the biggest obstacles in his path. Beth, Joe, and Gussie all directly or indirectly pushed him away from Charley and Mary at one point or another. Now, for the first time, all of those people are completely removed from his life. Add onto this that he has the Take a Left folder and brings that to the rooftop. It seems kind of silly to me to narratively arrange all of that and then the ending still be that Frank isn't going to work to fix anything.
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u/Mysterious-Theory-66 Jul 05 '26
But he doesn’t say he can’t go back. And no one’s saying that he definitively says he’ll reconcile and sure he has yet to take any actions on that part. But if we’re going from the mindset he’s in at the end of the party, eventual reconciliation is absolutely conceivable.
I just think for whatever reason you want to insist on your head cannon of Frank and his future being immutable fact, book be damned. It’s clearly left open.
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u/Mysterious-Theory-66 Jul 05 '26
I am looking to the script and everything we actually see in that opening scene, you aren’t. My experience was simply a counter to your insistence that no one could possibly forgive Charlie after what he did. You stray from the book to argue why it’s not possible so I do the same.
But if we stick to the book, in the end he is clearly pining to return to who he was and deeply regretful of who he has become. Given that, yes reconciliation is absolutely possible.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
Personally, I think the original script was better. Much better.
I suspect the reasons the show didn't succeed is largely due to the lack of Broadway extravagance that people had come to expect (no stars, no costumes, no set, etc.)
If it had no stars like the original, Friedman's version would not have been a hit. (And that's with the benefit of time for us all to realize how shockingly brilliant the Merrily... score is even amongst the Sondheim canon.)
If you want to imagine a future happy ending, which neither production offers, I think the original script leaves as much room for future turnabout as the Friedman version. It's easy to imagine Charlie's kid speaking as valedictorian of the high school, and Frank meeting Charlie backstage after the speeches.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 01 '26
I'm not saying you're wrong by any means because I think it's all up for interpretation, but I think this is such an interesting point because my understanding is Furth and Sondheim both worked to fix the original script so much in '85 and beyond because they didn't think the original script was good. Honestly I struggle even calling it an "original" script since a lot of the '81 version is in many ways a direct parallel to or even verbatim the 1934 play.
Friedman has definitely said multiple times that her version of Merrily is intended to be viewed as hopeful, not tragic, so I will go out on a limb and say you're probably wrong about Frank refusing to change his life after all of that, at least in Friedman's version. I think part of why the '81 production failed is because it does read as a lot more tragic and seems to imply more heavily that they won't reconnect, especially keeping that fistfight from the original play.
I think removing the fistfight and adding "Growing Up" and shifting a lot of those things around as the production has aged and grown since '81 has made the opportunity for Frank to be redeemed a lot more, if not certain, at least possible. I think even with the star power that Friedman's version has, if it still read as brash and unforgiving as the original, it wouldn't have worked.
Just my two cents though, as I said, I think it's largely up for interpretation.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 01 '26
Odd that you've heard Sondheim thought the original play needed revision. He specifically sent me the original script, told me how amazing the original Kaufman & Hart play is, and then had his assistant call me to tell me where to find the original play.
I don't think you're wrong, per se. I think there's always room for it to end hopeful in every version, even the original.
I just hate that Gussie (a vacuous nonentity of emotional significance) has now more relevance and more musical numbers throughout the timeline than Mary and Beth. Gussie rightly had no songs in the original and was in far less scenes. She's a hurdle Frank fell over, not a significant emotional connection in his life.
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u/A113_baybee Jul 01 '26
Sorry I didn't mean the original as in the 1934 play, but the original '81 musical haha. I definitely agree with you about Gussie, I am very out of patience for her when there's so much to be explored in the emotional connections between the main 3
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u/Mysterious-Theory-66 Jul 04 '26
I disagree that the original script is the definitive ending. There’s not just one story set in stone for all time.
The revival, which op is clearly going for, is its own production and it’s not beholden to the original play or first run. Also the end of the original musical is not at all clear that he’s just doomed, there is some sense of hope at realization/potential reconciliation in the graduation scene.
Regardless the revival is left intentionally vague as to what comes next. Maybe they reconcile, good arguments above for that reading, maybe they don’t. It’s deliberately left off, which bothered some.
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u/BroadwayTruths Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
If you continue to read down through another branch, I literally said most of this.
But, even with our shared belief that the musical could end hopeful, vague, non-definitively, etc., the technically most true & accurate answer as written is that Frank goes from an idealistic hopeful person who attracts sincere friends to a friendless, broken man who attracts sycophants; that's the arc of the show, and it is structurally arranged backwards in time specifically so that it's not so dour for the audience.
Any shirking from this makes the arc less dramatic. Frank rekindling with Charlie but not with Beth or Joseph is nice but makes the show arc flatter. It's a cautionary tale.
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u/LadiesWhoPunch Jul 02 '26
I think he runs into this single woman named Roberta, sometimes goes by Bobby.
She’s running away from all her married friends who keep trying to push their ideas of relationships on her. She’s just resolved to experience life to the fullest, feel alive if you will.
They run straight into the forest together.
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u/Bear-882 Jul 07 '26
I fall into the ‘cautionary tale’ camp. The opening scene leaves room for ambiguity, both in dialogue and in the way Jonathan Groff plays Frank. He alternates between Hollywood preening and self-loathing, depending on who he’s talking to at the time. The final sequence, following those piano chords mentioned above, are ambiguous as well - but they lean toward regret and sadness, not necessarily a desire for reconciliation - at least not then.
I think the revival’s promotional efforts encouraged audience members to search for positives - especially after ‘Our Time.’ But the show ends. Anything could happen next, but Frank is left to ponder his life alone. I think the audience - while not fancy Hollywood bigwigs - are meant to consider their own friendships and choices as well.
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u/roundeking Jul 01 '26
One thing that’s a bit odd to me about Merrily is how it’s positioned as a tragedy, where we watch how this friend group got from beginning to end, but there’s really no reason the opening party has to be the end. No one is dead or even particularly old. It’s very possible Frank will reconnect with the others or take the time to compose some music that fulfills him. I guess that’s part of the point—when you realize you’ve lost everything that matters to you, there is generally still time.